S1E : Case Evidence 01.23.17
Take a deeper look at the evidence as experts discuss new developments in the case.
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the guys wanted a second to think this week sponsors Weldon in BMT watches instead of stock on the shuttle is not for spots later in the show with their support we've been able to continue his podcast every week and I've even deeper into terror instead case you may also start to notice that future episodes will be longer more in depth the support from our sponsors allowing us to do that to expand the production of this podcast the entire investigation that arrogance the case is the largest case file history of Georgia this means that there are more clues persons of interest red herrings and just general information than any other case in the whole state as you've all my investigation slowly begins to make more sense the case is littered with white rabbits and just plain odd circumstances become increasingly harder to explain in today's episode will be speaking to several different people who are experts in their field in hopes of gaining some more knowledge and insight this case evidence The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The today's episode is brought you by Maxwell did not bow to make the most comfortable underwear socks boxers briefs and t shirts for men on the planet if you're like me you feel yourself in a mall department store into a mind assortment of socks and boxers of is is grabbing something without even looking at the price just to get out of there there's never really been easy reliable way for men to suffer the kind of stuff but not well done to solve that problem they specialize in making insanely soft fabrics for the superior modern design of a huge selection of different styles in right now Madeline is offering twenty percent off everything in their store exclusively for Up in Venice listeners to redeem this offer is going to Mac Weldon in A C K W E L D O N dot com Use the promo code of U P S Check out that smack willed and calm promo code now back to the show today was speaking with Doctor Celeste injured and briefly in last episode that since continue this conversation about other elements of the case given all the information I could as well as some of those emails are sent I wanted to know his thoughts on everything points in a better direction let me say in general this is looking get something like an email or letter that somebody wrote is often called the statement analysis document analysis and this type of analysis is heavy on speculation light on science as a forensic psychologist I try to be grounded in behavioral science certainly as much as I can I'm not going to give a great deal of weight too in depth statement analysis of the first thing you want to do is you have to take it at face value I mean Farrah was obviously rejected she's very angry at Mark is for dumping her for an eighteen year old and as I review all three of these females it probably tells us nothing that the police didn't learn from speaking with all the parties I don't really see anything that stands out here that that they didn't know a couple of things come to my mind as I try to understand you're a first was more than one person involved in her disappearance and murder that's always possible but generally speaking in a cold case like this it's unlikely because most individuals can keep their mouth shut you know they can you talk to any detective the problem with most criminal defendants as they start talking and if you have more than one person the likelihood for someone to talk is increased a great deal another thing that comes to mind as I review this play this is not different then many many cold cases and the police in my view very likely believe that they know who did this but the problem is they had wanted to bring a case you have to be able to prove it one force or the prosecutors really only have one chance at this and they bring a case against somebody who they think was involved in this or did this and the evidence or the proof aren't there that it even if more evidence or proof come later on there done that only they only have one shot deal I had a case a murder case very recently that was called for twenty five years the police always believed that they know who killed this child and after twenty five years they brought the case because it's not that new evidence emerged with the old evidence was of you in a different way they evaluate it very differently she was recently convicted last May in just a couple months ago a very interesting case of a mother killed her five year old son and right from the beginning the police knew that she did this but couldn't bring it so what did they wait for what was the final piece of evidence well it's very involved and really a very fascinating case but what they did is after the case was called for about twenty years to take out an enormous amount of publicity in New Jersey five year old child who was killed after twenty years the anniversary of the child's death the newspaper that whole big article on an as a result there were tips that came in to the prosecutor's office of the tips that came in got them nowhere but the new prosecutors the people originally worked the case of all since retired and the new prosecutors look at the evidence from a different perspective and the child was supposedly abducted from a carnival and when the body was found eleven months later was wrapped in a blanket the original prosecutors and detectives I should say of the prosecution never showed the blanket to the babysitter of the of the child the five year old with was babysat by at least three different people they never showed that first they headed to the mother who was the ultimate who's the murderer been about this I never saw before they showed the blanket for the babysitters and one of them had a visceral reaction because she was very close to five year old started crying and shaking this blanket was very distinctive had very distinctive mark like a metal we went through with that only you would definitely recognize wasn't just a blue blanket and so yeah they brought the case and convicted up was another important thing in my experience when state mistakes are made they occur very quickly and sometimes in the first half hour to fifteen minutes how witnesses are interviewed how their quest in how evidence initially handled the mistakes in the investigation yes yes very often happens very very early in this case that I just refer to the homicide detectives investigate the case because initially when as a missing child and so the juvenile Aid Bureau investigated the case that the home detectives don't know about this your face with power but very often the stakes are made early on I'm not at all surprised that wouldn't be surprised if the police really believe they know have a good idea who did the matter is just proving it the police never reveal all of what they know seems like they're waiting on DNA match on that latex love I feel like that's never come it can certainly happen I had another case of a wrongful conviction the guidance of twenty three years in jail for killing two children one of our banging nails into a little boy's head as a method of Williams was convicted and the case was overturned after twenty three years on a more sophisticated DNA analysis this case also don't have a body so that certainly is a major factor as well and even if somebody they find where the body is you have homes laughed and nothing but contamination in the case I just worked on with the conviction for twenty five years the child was under water for eleven months and only bones are found in animals are involved they find the body they found the body because a high school biology teacher was doing a nature hike by him self he was like a bird watcher in to that the body was placed in a Meadow swamp Sauce sneaker and he took the sneaker to the police thinking you notice I have a little boy's sneaker which is fairly new at the middle of a swamp and it was Speaker of the little boy and so the FBI the train the whole swamp and they found the bones and a blanket and a blanket and then another important thing with respect to investigations in this case that this case has been cold for over ten years about eleven years I guess what most people don't realize is the clearance rate for murder is just over sixty percent most people don't know that most people think their murders are solved that's not true back in the nineteen sixty the clearance rate for murder was over ninety percent when President Kennedy was president of the early sixties the clearance rate for homicides over ninety percent almost all homicides were clear what that mean more advances yes you would think that the homicide clearance rate would increase because we have more advances in technology D and a hot spot just as more police per capita than they were in the nineteen sixty if you look at the clearance rate from uniform Crime Reports it was ninety percent over ninety percent back in the early sixties and then by the seventies when to eighty percent by the eighties when to seventy percent and it goes about reduces about ten percent every decade was going to war the reason it's going down is the type of murder is changing in our country back in the nineteen sixties it was a murder it was a typical Cain Abel murder case I spoke about last session someone close to each other or family or domestic dispute or two guys in argument that type of thing and those are very easy to clear if the woman is still likely it was her boyfriend is very very high her husband the man is murdered it's very likely it was an argument with some other guy today and particularly in the past thirty years there's more third party killing not just organized crime like the Mafia to have again people and you have to drug people and all these other things and one of the third party killing is very very difficult to clear or so and probably in the past ten to fifteen years you have in gang type murders you have intimidation of citizens and so many many individuals that know something about the murder are afraid to come forward because they're afraid they're going to get involved in some sort of retaliation with a gang member and a sort of thing may be that the average person these days has more knowledge on how to Get Away With Murder from watching TV shows and stuff like the average person I would not say has more knowledge gotta Get Away With Murder what I would say with in terms of the TV shows is it effects the jury in what way would you say well because today you have germs coming in to court who have heard and listened to and watched TV shows on and that not only investigation but on lawyers debating what reasonable doubt in this sort of thing and so you know every one of the jurors today you have a lot of jurors that our crime scene experts in junior lawyers and they bring that to the jury box you know judges tried of wild deer jurors the best they can but it's very very difficult to un do what you have heard for so many years for example a judge will ask a potential juror will you listen to my explanation of the law as opposed to what you think the wall is now every potential jurors of course I listen to what you say judge but when you hear from fifty Pence fifteen twenty years panels of lawyers on TV talking about reasonable about what you can't unlearn that you can't undo it becomes part of you I had a case where a jury hung the evidence was overwhelming and afterwards the judge talk to the jury as judges do very often after murder trial say what that says What was the problem here and they said well we already did but it wasn't pee on the reasonable doubt ok sometimes my impression is some jurors just want to demonstrate how smart they are when they're interviewed afterwards by the media say whoa in our country our constitution the state test to prove that the other reason that which is all true but it's more in a pan with some people to demonstrate their knowledge of the system and all this sort of thing I had a case where they didn't use Blumenthal if you go to a classroom of average people that I ask my students is all the time how many people assume the loom is everybody raises their hand loom is a spray that enforcement can use that brings out whether blood is there in this particular murder case the jurors said several hundred pace said that the police didn't use Lumen all when you think the red stuff is coming out of the dead guy it's blood you don't have to use Blumenthal prove that the red stuff coming out of the dead guy is live on TV they do it was a real investigation of the news looming o factly with prosecutorial error because of this scene the bluff with their own eyes exactly exactly what I just mentioned we just talk about less government those are conviction rate that's not that's the clearance rate clearance rate means cleared by arrest and that has dropped tremendously in me now the conviction rate in many jurisdictions the commission rate if you went back thirty years about ninety percent prosecutors will bring a case that they are absolutely sure they can get a conviction rate in many jurisdictions the day the clearance rate is just over fifty percent they can get a conviction because of all of these different sorts of issues whether it's being a junior lawyer a junior crime scene investigator or all sorts of other issues that may affect these things people in the way like society is more supportive of criminal defense these days to like making a murderer and you know shows like that those sorts of things and plus the wrongful convictions that some people say well you know we're making the state prove it that's the way the system was right and if they didn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt he should be convicted what will well that's true but on the other hand if you're releasing people that killed a lot of bad guys out there you don't want to do it right you really have to do these things write these are life and death major decisions you don't want any wrongful conviction because if you're wrongfully convict an innocent person the bad guys out there committing more crimes safer to appearances case the prosecution can only happen one time that's correct exactly so mean even if they were to say Hey we think this guy to bring a case against them and they find him not guilty they couldn't come back later and say actually we think this guy did it that's correct double jeopardy candid is a prohibition against double jeopardy you can try somebody for taste wise one chance at one shot to do it so that's why you have to be able to prove it no prosecutor is going to bring a case without the adequate proof you were there to prosecute this person a person they say Hey we think this guy do to get a core and they find not guilty then years later they're like OK maybe we think this guy did you can do that but then the second guy's best offenses were them I didn't do the first guy did pay for the first guy did not know what they're doing credibility goes out the window yes exactly exactly so these are very very difficult cases the difficult case you haven't it's been called for over ten years it doesn't mean that it will never be solved very well may be involved in my opinion just looking at the summit distances the police probably have a very good idea of who they think did this but you have to be able to prove it so we don't really know what they have and probably not going to know until something happens and again this can take twenty years I've had these cases about is it just be a small town in the one thing it was a huge city and anybody could have done it but you look at this case and there's all this had to be someone she knew there's only certain people we know that list of people will know which one it is it's a real whodunit it's almost always someone that they know but sometimes it's not you have to approach these investigations with an open mind of a state that is often made an investigation is very early on some of the force of example may have an eye the A theory of who did it and you got to guard against doing that because sometimes you look at evidence in a way to support your theory and ignore evidence that doesn't support it human nature everyone wants to have the insight into who actually did this so that can be a mistake in an investigation that's that's one of the biggest confusing parts about this whole case is that you have this information but it's hard to piece them all together to create one theory or one time line with everything you have a fact over here yet this over here and some of them don't really fit together so either one of them or of several of them have nothing to do with the case exactly and the knowledge that you don't know what your facts are true or not exempt or partially true little fickle so the result I hope these thoughts give you some insight here case in the The The the the the the the the second to thank everyone for supporting this talk s one of them is im v empty there a watch company started by two broke college kids I can relate these guys always wanted to wear stylish watches but they couldn't afford them so this made her a watch company I've never been a watch person myself but this is the first will actually wear some cool styles to choose from those finally able to find one that fit me a huge selection of both men and women's watches I would never spend three hundred bucks of the mall and watch the MV in T's watches only ninety five dollars in on finding myself wanting another one right now they're offering to open Venice listeners fifteen percent off all their watches with free shipping and free return in the empty watches dot com slash up and vanished in BMT watches dot com slash up and vanished now back to the show one important thing doctors listener pointed out that not only is their lack of incriminating evidence in this case but they've also never found his body with those two things missing it seems almost impossible to prosecute and convict somebody in this case is it really impossible but the super second that maybe will never find tears body and there's never a DNA match from that latest love is there anything else we can find help with the killer behind bars with a man whose nickname is The nobody guy I'm not kidding for twelve years he was Assistant United States attorney in the District of Columbia has prosecuted several murder cases that had no body if you are the answer to this was going to be him I'm not bias in for twelve years I was a prosecutor the D C U S attorney's office for most of that twelve years I prosecuted homicides because he's a unique U S attorney's office because he doesn't have a district attorney like most jurisdictions do so in the scene we do all of the local crime from shoplifting to homicide as well as your more traditional U S attorney type of charges like public corruption in March scale narcotics cases it's also the largest U S Attorney's Office country when I was a air back in probably about two thousand for two thousand and five a colleague of mine was leaving the homicide section gave me a case you've been investigating that was a no body murder case and indices history at the time the only one other no body case that ever gone to trial that was back in the early eighties so I started looking into the case and I was very interested in the topic because to me murder is the ultimate crime and no body murder case is the ultimate murder case and the fact that there had only been one in the history of the city kind interested me so I started looking into it at the same time that I was actually investigating my case along with the detectives I started researching no body cases in general because I wanted to find out what the case law was light because there weren't really any examples in DC other than this one case or what the case laws like the country and a colleague of mine who had worked on a no body case and about not going to trial gave me a memo that a law clerk a draft like fifty or sixty Novi cases from across the country and I remember as a time thinking of that seems like a pretty good numbers are sixty and when I started looking into it I sound more and more cases and became kind of fascinating because there seems to be any call option of these types of cases of this very specific and very rare type of murder case and so I went on and try my own case in the ended up getting a conviction in the case and I became more interested in the cases and so I started collecting them on a website that I put up anonymously was still with the Department of Justice because I feel like going through it's more the bureaucratic hoops he probably had to jump through to do it so I just didn't use my name I came up with the name The nobody guy so you actually got a conviction with no body yet so the case and I tried was involving a defendant name of the victim was in a Marion science and the pair lost and we owe it to bits in on the case back in January two thousand and six and so I was really became interested after getting the conviction kind of discovering more about these cases and then started thinking now maybe I can help other people try this case because I was for every first time I want to learn more about it so without a body what kind of strong evidence can you present that is just as convincing the reason and no body murder cases are difficult because you don't have a mean piece of evidence the body of a body in a murder case generally gives you how the murder happened was the person shot with a strangled voice that it also generally gives you the time the murder happened you can look at a body and say Okay this just happened in our NGO or have been six hours ago ordain half ago four years ago ten years ago because all I got Lester bones and asserting a body gives you is where the murder happened did happen in somebody's house because the body sitting out in the street like a lot of B C murders were drug related be related to happen you know in this in this part is having a place of employment we don't have the body and none of that evidence and I'm liking it too if my boss comes Jesus hates that we have a bank that was robbed in the city and see bankers out in the city we don't know what bank it was so sick that you're running around some think the bank and you guys you guys well yeah we arrive when the thirty or are you just have so much of the helpful information so in a no body case you generally rely on what I call one of three legs of the stories are three types of evidence that you get in these cases the number one is forensic evidence DNA fingerprints hair and fiber evidence secondly this was what I call concession to friends and family the defendant confesses to someone tells them about it and the number three is confessing to the police ultimately this and confesses to the police that mean type of evidence that you have in cases as in most of these cases you don't have a witness to the murder sometimes you do but fifty plus percent of the cases are domestic related mine's boyfriend killing will find those types of murders you generally don't have a witness to the ER because they'll be no relationship is those people it happens in this for a moment and there's not there's not really someone else there to witness it so those three legs of this tool what you look for in a no body case the most successful cases have three of them in my case I had all three of those really difficult cases don't have any of those most cases have one of those three legs that's how you actually make a successful prosecution so strong as you say a confession from either the killer obviously or somebody else who saw something new something in confession friends and family I mean generally the killer confesses to someone else there are cases where witnesses but that's a definite minority because you don't usually have someone else there witnessing occasionally has your organized crime case or gain case or something like that whether someone else who saw it but most of the time don't actually have another witness to it you can't rely on eyewitness testimony when you don't have or find it highly unlikely that is in its forensic evidence which of course now we're almost I guess it was eleven years out over eleven years out then your next best chance is a so called confession to friends and family what did they feel or say to other people what did the killer do that was suspicious that other people and picked up on that the next best scenario in the one after that of course is ultimately contrast to the police because well the confession of friends and family is is good and hope for confession to the police is better for obvious for obvious reasons is more believable when when police come for NJ yes this person confess to work also when you're eleven years now it also makes it that much less likely that you're going to find body parts or pieces of pie or lead to good evidence you're talking about Georgia a temperate climate body decompose is much more quickly in a temperate climate and it does say it again when Alaska in my body a body or body parts might last longer eleven years out you know I counsel police in case you still want to look for the body because any case is stronger with the body we're eleven years out realistically the chances of finding nearby place to be useful to you is just starting to get very very unlikely two or three years out not so much a body can withstand being outdoors for that type of time but if you're eleven years in Highland will please you haven't found the body you really should take much time looking for the body unless you're trying to confirm that the curiosity I put the body here and they're going to try and find clothes and things like that of Peter Bone something that lasts significantly longer even though there is a body in this case with these yet to determine I guess the exact time that she could have been killed or murdered we do know is last time she was seen in the day this was reported missing right and that's helpful because in a lot of no body cases they start off a missing person cases in man it may not be reported to police some significant time later and then of course the police made an investigator a way in some kind of detective who's treating in the missing person case was treated differently than as a homicide case it sounds like some limited facts I know here that you're able to much more could a certain time when she disappeared probably was either abducted or murder at that exact time frame within say a twelve hour window or something like that and that I was more helpful in terms of placing the time in figuring maybe later people alibi things like that that's an advantage that this case and that other case
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