S1E : Case Evidence 04.03.17
Take a deeper look at the evidence as experts discuss new developments in the case.
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presumably strengthens their case against Ryan do for terrorists as murder for the general public still a ton of unanswered questions so much has changed over the past month and tears cases progress from a twelve year old cold case to a high profile active investigation with two back to back arrest and an extensive search for remains of a pecan orchard and Fitzgerald says the first episode of this podcast we've had numerous experts on the show sharing her insight and expertise in attempt to make sense of all the madness with all this changed recently don't try to touch base again with some of those who offers her insight and expertise early on in the investigation before the recent breaks in the case today as people in light of all the major breaks in this case this case evidence the the the the the uh the uh the the the the in running a business where the most important things is that people who work for you in hiring the perfect candidate can only be stressful but really time consuming Doctor um you can put your job to two hundred plus job sites including social media like Facebook and Twitter all one single click you can find job candidates in any city or industry nationwide you just post the job once and watch it fall like and is pulling the zipper Hooters easy to use interface there's no more juggling emails or calls your office was if recruiter you can quickly scan candidates rate them and have the right person fast if you run a business and you're looking for your next hire Dakar is we need to go in right now investors can post jobs and the recruiter for free by going to zip her doc home slash case case evidence so if you're looking for the perfect tire look no further use it for her doc home flash case poster first job for free that simple the Kong last case our first guest today is Tracy Underwood with early on the podcast conducted multiple searches for terror in France remains all throwing County with her cadaver dogs but each time returned empty handed I caught up with Tracy to get her take on everything looking back on the searches that you performed with your dogs does it surprise you that she was there or did you think that she was somewhere else well the area where they've been searching the pecan orchard I am not searching that area not familiar with the area that they are searching the area is the reason he turns you know we certainly didn't find any evidence there and then not unusual honestly most times some cases especially like the one we may surge to invest in more places on either two or three dozen places and not find anything at all but saying because at least we are process of elimination that we don't know where terror in and we know she's not and that's what I tell families an official with any case we get involved with is really one thing we can prop man is at the end of the day well no more than negated the beginning of the day right so being surprised when she was in this area a little bent but not for a couple reasons one This is a very very small community in surprise and especially someone in the winter the same school that she walked around and being such a small community that this did not happen soon or some little surprised by that I'm not surprised that she was found in pretty close proximity of where she was laughing it is highly unusual for people that are getting killed to be quiet or their remains placed long distances it does have a trainer so those of the reasons why you're part of a surprise by the other surprise to make sense how many places did you search with your dog's back to well over the years I would estimate we probably a search at least thirty different areas over the years course the first few games a few weeks we surfed a lot of areas and we would come up or rumor or hearsay they would call me we would go down there checking where they were looking for stocking I had to guess at least thirty times or thirty different areas searched over the years do you bring your dogs to Terry's house oh no no we did not we drove by the half but we did not start shit with the dog it was minor staining the house was early checked and investigated so the dog was not used inside her house around her house how long after the desk in a dog traced the scent of dollars were sent out to the pecan orchard a few weeks ago or something before they found her remains could they have found the dogs with a question and answer to that is you have several different variables here were saying this is just theoretical someone was killed inside their home and there was blood there are even if they were inside the home for a period of time and their body was transported in removed from her and I now stand there and depends upon you know different variables that there could still be reasoned with and I think it's important to its listeners scared she remains detection dogs were clearly that they are trained to locate human brain in his defense team remained in a clear fine and detection dogs and even locate the honors for deceased individual what they are locating in indicating to the center of that particular kind of thinking in print on it k in so I say that to say this with someone saying if they were buried somewhere in the Marines is from the fan is still going to remain in this case I know the details but it's my understanding that the officials are searching a pecan orchard and presumably she was baring their last twelve years ago so we have a situation where Harris remains the only enduring in lao san is self is still going to be there for example drug dealers have been trying to hide the Phantom drunk in a variety of very creative way of ability to smell things in here in this case now on very very difficult and yes even her remains were buried Amber fan still going to be there in the Noles will indicate you know specifically the oldest are married to paint and have found it had to verify the approximate two hundred and fifty year old ness with Revolutionary War battlefield soldiers were killed in a line of duty during the battle so even after twelve years sien still going to be there not only knowing and divine decomposition of one that can ever be fluent in Arabic composition and scanning organizing everything into the process of mine decomposing door into the ground plant life there are any stains care for meaning years even after they remove her remains it's not unusual for him in a section on there in the area still lurk where she was very excited that he and his minions or didn't even stay there for me here's the short answer to your question if the dogs were brought to the pecan orchard and I Aaron is a very high probability that they way they indicated to her brain into her grave side even if she's going on and decorate during your searches the thirty or so search as you did over the years for terror did you ever search anywhere in Fitzgerald's we did for a few places and the Gerald I don't recall the exact locations and you remember specifically we did not search any book on trips there were a few feels like cotton fields of the time for Khairy things like in the conference so according to the GBI tear was killed inside her home in her body was removed the same day if dogs were sent out to the house to detect the sense of I guess cadaver that point not human remains how long would she have to have been their deceased nor for any dog to pick up that scent at her house there are different very being for the transition of a dog taking a live person versus a good person and when we die our body immediately starts decomposing so it's a situation where there's open my own composition process is certainly going to go much quicker there's also live in her body fluids are going to come out of my anonymity and or engineers or think or what forces for counter and asked if my understanding from the news reports state she was strangled farmers say means that there is probably no open wounds on her body so we now have a fully intact body then starting the decomposition process down behind her ears quicker than my own to decompose the Quran is slower in quantity so depending upon those variables you know it could happen very quickly or it could happen slowly so how many years you think you spins off and on working on tears case with your dogs for we were called shortly after she disappeared and who say the last time we went there was only about three years together I can only say oh it's been again approximate nine to ten years feel hearing this news of the arrest and possibly finding tears body where the time we have a case like this especially alone Coldplay is my first aunt is with the family in to live in this torture in this nightmare for so long sewing takes its toll on my first thought when I heard the breaking news on this case with her family said thank goodness her family now has the answers selling the outcome then they were hoping for at least they have some answers instead of just being in darkness in portrait of not knowing I have come to the realization after doing this for seven years then the not knowing the absolute worse for anything like the worst outcome and not knowing it was so I was here that they have come to the only conclusion to this case and claim their family can start in strange sort of way the grieving process over in the day with the grieving process of this change in the years and have trillions orchestra live for this family but still you know just ask my ears caught on small and not knowing that they know handsome answers they can start not only the grieving process but more importantly the healing so that was way came to mind for me thank goodness to fame I can't place to start the healing process I can mention how they can find peace and comfort with without knowing in playing in question is what happened in a very symbolic way physical way to bring her home can bring her she belongs no family can ever prepare for the US and expect this to happen in my deepest condolences and sympathy and compassion is out to her family and I think everyone that was in on the years the difference in taste and nice to know that people are now to help him do everything that they can solve the first and in scoring in the second difference in France the the fashion should not have to cost you a fortune with the toad you can rinse your look and get new clothes every single day you can get to seven hundred dollars with clothing for only thirty nine bucks a month yes thirty nine bucks a month my wife is always completed the shopping for clothes but she loves new clothes for the past month has been using the tote to upgrade or wardrobe for my wife said about her first toe box that came in last week the US and the day the chances that he's still there like being late class move the team called Can the years involving gays the I hate the unloved if that isn't to say that whites were forced to go to the towed the car to stall your style profile and sign up to get a custom tote delivered right to your door then you can wear it you want to return everything in the mail when you're done a few days later you get a new box right now that it is offering fifty percent off your first month gala tote dot com l e t o t e doc calm in the promo code case for case evidence get fifty percent off your first month the foto dock on promo code case for fifty percent off your first order our next guest today is former federal prosecutor Todd Tobias is known for specializing in murder cases that don't have a body he's known as the new body guy I was anxious to get his thoughts and everything mine is that Tobias a former federal prosecutor in Washington D C also known as the No body guy can sign my website on www dot no body murder cases dot com in my book is no body homicide cases practical guide to investigating prosecuting the case is saying something to talk about last time were just what it takes to get a conviction with a no body case and kind of talk and now the different elements of this case with someone having to come for with information and you know the likelihood of that sort of things now there's been two arrests in this case Terrace case now is technically a no body homicide investigation but we do believe that the GBI has found some remains that is haven't officially said that but I wanted to talk you about the prosecution with remains but not technically a body one of the police looking for right now to see if they were given a tip to go search a certain area for tears body when search there they've concluded that search what happens from here what a strong outlook in court it's not a full body but as you know it's remains of some sort to be happy at the defiled her house at all were short so the likelihood of finding a lot of me is probably very very low in this case because of climate you know of Georgia and the time has passed particularly if it sounds like you're that the body was sort of dumps maybe not not necessarily buried or wrapped in plastic or anything like that and we don't know those facts but from what you know we sort of heard it seems more likely that maybe it was just kind of abandoned there in a somewhat remote location that is true then the only remains are likely to find are going to be articles of clothing that perhaps could be tied to her in and no skeleton bones see things that take you know or time to decompose way then you're going to have the difficulty of can you get DNA from those thing the answer is yes you can get DNA and they would be able to tie it to her either because they have some DNA from her maybe things in her apartment her to shh boom cups those types of things that were in her house then you can tie the DNA that way or you can use family DNA that is from a father and mother both of whom I believe our lives biological parents aint i there remains from the DNA to that known the neighbor parents and making a match that way that that's also possible the biggest challenge though I think paintings going to be that you're not going to be able to determine cause of death because given the amount of remains at all likely they are probably going to be difficult to say well it was blunt force trauma or with strangulation and all of those things are just not things that are going to work here on the names here's the thing you will know for sure what the GI is found or what actually happens but from all the information I've gathered and I believe it to be true is that they burned her body so whatever remains they are looking for would be burned so how does that change things if that was true well I will say it is very very difficult to completely bar on a body when you're talking about the temperature that you need to create something you would have at a crematorium or some type of place that does it professionally for cremation purposes you're talking about four five six hundred Fahrenheit temperatures that's incredibly difficult to know when you're basing the bonfire out in the open show burning a body tends not to be a particularly effective way of getting rid of my body what is going to mean this is probably going to speed up in the composition that has occurred although I would still imagine that in the the possibility of finding bones teeth and those things because they're the most difficult to burn even barring a very high insulation weight loss and have those types of things remain because they're so difficult to burn so while I think it clearly a handicap or makes it more difficult I still think the likelihood of completely in generating a body in what space is going to be for lack of better term a bonfire that's not that's probably not likely to happen so you're saying there's likely still some identifiable piece of evidence left no matter how small it is there maybe something I would think so just because I think it's unlikely that you have fire hot enough that would help Verizon exonerate the bone just don't see that you know is happening I think it is much more likely that even when burning you know I was your burning question maybe you're getting wet clothes and whatever else I think it's still going to be difficult to do enough to actually get rid of I would just look at my book just because I wanted to make sure are and I reminded never to bring the body completely requires temperatures of at least fourteen hundred to eighteen hundred degrees Fahrenheit even then bone fragment can remain behind so I will wallow on the temperature I mean you're talking an incredibly high temperatures which are just so unlikely to be happening a bonsai a psychic that much more likely that why you're burning flesh and those types of things they're still a chance of leaving behind bone fragments and in any event given the passage of time you are likely to have Flash in those types of things left behind anyway simply because they passed along the far right so what challenges or the prosecution facing right now when you have no body wanted and you have to prove is that the person is in fact dead that that sounds you have some remains that you can I knew conductor DNA or some other mess that I did tear greens that you wouldn't have to prove that so that's one less challenge for the prosecution because they're going to be able to argue yes terrorist is dead when they're not going to be able to argue possibly isn't actually be able to argue how she died en masse going to be important because as you pointed out on the show a number and the main piece of evidence in this case is probably going to be the testimony of someone testifying against Ryan do and it's probably going to be bogus and believe what sort of happening here that I think the halls is really wow that's going to be the main testimony and what we want to have is one of the other corroborate everything that said that it took the body or he was there in the pecan orchard and bought a potty chair and this I looked at it and saw XY and Z had happened to a jeep and strangled or however the means of the murder occurred if you can't corroborate that from the body itself makes it harder for the prosecution that is you want to be able to corroborate everything that you said so that you have that information from injuries day yet he said she was strangled and then we found the body for the remainder of the year for Highland which is on in the world Ohio was broken so and that's a sign of strangulation those types of facts and more difficult and not going to have those facts right so in one of the things I've learned is you know we'll know for sure what happened but one of the things going around is that Ryan Duke may have confessed in some sort of capacity that could be completely untrue I don't know but it was you know make sense a little bit if Ryan just admitted it and bow cooperative and then got the arrest warrant to go search the pecan orchard but where things stand right now couldn't Ryan to say hey wait wasn't me it was Bo who did it work I mean that's that's what often happens when you have only two people who are involved with the fingers at one another the problem again though is we don't have a body you can corroborate what one person saying purses with another person saying possibly because you don't have anything independent of their two story you're basically trying to sort out world instead it happen this way mine does it happen this way you don't have any independent evidence on the body that Nanna naps us that she was actually signed although he's saying it was a stabbing in hazing it was a nose a strangulation week and this proves that because we have a body that is in no particular town with either no body cases were cases we only have some remains may be enough to tie it to whom the victim is but not how they were actually murdered if you were the DA in this case right now what would you want to happen next what's the best way for you to get your conviction oh that's really hard to say without knowing what they know in this case the one thing I will say is if you are prosecutor faced with a case where you're either relying on that session War co defendant testimony or informant testimony that is someone else who's got some issues are common store in town the single most important thing that must have must have independent collaboration of what they are saying or concession if acquired on the boy was that you can simply pick someone on the convention the other collaborating evidence but you also needed in front of a jury because you have to convince the jury that were not government not just a line on the person's confession is not more about this co defendant who's involved in the murder or an informant who has their own possibly seedy criminal background is Wow you've got to rely on me independently true that because we have X Y and Z that independently corroborate the prosecutor that's what I'd be looking for this day in uni I was ever looking at the case when independent evidence we have a confession is right or working from another co defendant has told us now part of that you have because it is the remains are tied to terror groups that you have in fact said dump a body in an orchard a narrative that's helpful to just be in their best interests for Ryan to say yes you're right I did this he signs the piece of paper and takes a pleading goes to jail this is a very small town with not very much money and this is a very high profile case right now and clearly the judge agrees by placing this gag order on the case she has since loosened up a little bit but baseball that it seems to me that it would be in their best interests to get Ryan to plea out on this and if not then it opens up if he pleads not guilty then there are so many things that could go wrong depending on what they have and don't have on Ryan Duke versus Bo Duke's you know when the federal sentencing guidelines and I imagine Georgia there is a benefit for what's called acceptance of responsibility when it comes to sentencing so clearly indicates that you think you're going to get convicted in the Ross to plead guilty because then you can argue that the judge accepted responsibility you know in Georgia they have the death penalty that's obviously a year in a possible factor here in terms of whether it's a death penalty case or not I don't know that prosecutors can use that as a leverage or life in prison without possibility of parole you have that leverage so it is almost always better to go ahead and plead rather than to take your chance to try unless you think you're going to win say I think you're right discusses earlier in the podcast the conviction rate on the body cases is actually eighty nine percent it's actually very high which is sort of counterintuitive to what you think these are hard cases what that means only the strong cases go to trial typically there's a domestic relation between the two people which we don't know really have here although it's only now stranger on stranger case because they clearly knew each other somehow I never went to the high school she's a teacher there will find they're unsure whether there was some relationship which I suspect there's probably some relationship between them that perhaps is just in mind in mind there clearly something going on I don't buy for a minute that this was the book and our house the only thing we came into our house and invited or whatever but I think that you're much more likely theory than a burglar breaking in doing this and then deciding I got together a body that is very very rarely happens it doesn't usually happen that way you speak of the burglary charge has been a lot talk about that is the definition of burglary in raw
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