S1E : Case Evidence 06.12.17
For the first time, Payne Lindsey, Dr. Godwin and Philip Holloway sit down together to discuss the Tara Grinstead Case.
Following script is auto-generated by Speech to Text Technology:
hey guys over the weekend I had the pleasure of sitting down with Philip Holloway memories Goblin in the same room together we got the chance to discuss chairman said the case and to express our own thoughts and opinions to each other in today to hear it this case evidence the The The The The The The The The the the the the the first I want to talk a bell and all this kind of pose this question to both you guys what you guys make o The indictment for ion do and you think that the narrative the GBI is pressing in putting out there for us is what really happen if you don't think this would have and how different we think the truth is well said all the thing the indictment is potentially legally insufficient because it doesn't accurately and succinctly specifically describe Hal he allegedly hand in a deadly way so that could be a problem for them whether or not it's intentionally vague because there's maybe some deal in place is an open question I've got my suspicions about it if the indictment is challenge would be very easy for the DA to go back to the grand jury and get one that has more details and it's more specific so they can always re indict the case as far as the narrative that we've been given and been there piecing together what we can from what's been publicly released before the gag or reading the language of the indictment and reading the language of the arrest warrants the narrative that it was a burglary that went bad on love I never thought that was the truth I think something else is the truth I don't know if it's because maybe long for has been misled by witnesses in the case or whether it's intentionally vague just for some strategic reasons I don't know if those questions almost as if they could have got some information that was information that they deemed valid and they just jumped on the gun and ran with this theory and then maybe more time going on and different information surfaced maybe that's not what really happens maybe happen differently for them may because there's no other witnesses that we know of to what Ron did and they may just that amount information maybe Iran started and then just stopped and that's how they actually have and that's what they used there's a possibility that is vague because that's all they have is vague information from Ron and there's no witnesses not less both collaborative some another witness to walk around the ad except around so maybe they don't really have anything else to go there but one thing that I've often wondered why is with the judge she originally did the order about heaven is like a secret route whatever religious ritual or cause you to do their own she was influenced is that I'm just wondering if they're worn is not purposely vague because arm or might be some bad stuff that what really happened and maybe that was original intent of the judge about a sick or try ow in the first place and that might be the reason not to let certain things come out and about what happened in Tolkien Week at me and listeners on the secret trial that Greece is talking oh so the original gag order essentially called for everything to be done in camera and that's the Latin were legal phrase and it basically means in chambers or in private essentially what it would call for any proceeding that would have occurred whether it was a trial or plea or anything else than done in a courtroom that was close to the public and there's no way in hell I would ever agree to any kind of such order if I'm taking a client trial right I'm not going to agree that the trial is going to be held essentially in secret even if there's a jury in the box but the public not allowed to watch I have to call the judge out of that seems very extreme and very fast for the gag order to come into place like that last question did the defense attorney or the DA objective that I don't think anybody objected to it really it was the media as I recall they had to essentially come in going to call BS and you know the first amendment right of the press and things like that in the public has a right to access the course so it was the media that came in and challenge an interestingly enough if you recall from from that court hearing Bo Duke's wasn't there he wasn't representative but the DA Mitch and when it was the DA mention that he was was authorized to speak on behalf of those lawyer and that they had no objection to the order in in being included in so he became part of the amended or YA as far as the in camera stuff Rolen are rigidly DA and the defense attorney didn't object to that with a lot to my knowledge I don't recall any of them not be something that both of them know about that might be very damaging aware of Oreos sadistic information whatever they want really wanted to originally wanted trying to keep our Yemeni I was in the courtroom when the AJC a couple Demi L It's oppose the gag order I was there for the hearing and ice all thought was very strange i keep say even to this day the DA and the defense for Ryan were sitting at the same table across from all the media outlets who are opposing the gag order they were basically on the same team and it was different media outlets on one side of the courtroom and they all came together as a whole the file a complaint and try to get this gag order moves in on the South Korea have Ryan Dukes defense attorney you have the district attorney who's prosecuting Ryan right next to each other in support of the order was very strange well the defense attorney has an interest in protecting his client has got to protect his client's right to fair trial and they made some arguments in favor of a gag order to cut down pre trial publicity and that's actually a legitimate thing for a defense attorney to do what was an objection to the courtroom being closed entirely that was what was surprising is that why would you not object at least that part of that I can see a legitimate strategic reason for the defense can occurring in the issuance of a gag order in the interest of protecting their clients' rights to a fair trial but I can't see how one could go and say Oh it's OK to close the courtroom judge for it right if you answer that wack Weston the reason they wanted the in camera stuff you my answer or answers to more about what Randy had very true I have and everything so probably in the judge's chambers by Scott Wright in Cameron traditionally it means that you're back in the judge's office and the judge review something by him or herself right in chambers but in this context it could also mean just bring in the jury in blocking the courtroom door having the trial that any body of answers a question of why they were that why there is no objection bout da ordered defenseman you might find out something more about what Iran did in this case or both me and set up this way because there's more to the story oh yeah so this case has been unsolved for going on twelve years now since two thousand and five Reese last you first why do you think the G I can never solve it what it takes till two thousand and seventeen for the GV us all this what about this case that made it so much different than other cases I just don't quite have the leadership in the beginning because I was six I knew about the DNA of food male DNA profile in the glove but it was officially announced until late when Roswell on them agreed to let forty eight hours and now sat on the show as two years and then there were twenty third and had to reduce cough around that was the first news conference ever been held in this case I mean another thing in this top a case where you've got a small town of thing you really need agents need informants or some artwork and around the two counties there and everything and they did have none of that day will happen it happens just on this case but a lot of cases is that the DNA wait no DNA code this match may the investigators lazy and that it did she work after a number years they just wait for the day I hit the one aged in wood on my two witnesses Mobley and mush I guess its all electric yeah I mean I mean they come in and question stuff in our one month I had our drug test in are treated from Loch awe suspects and they they never discussed what he originally went to see him about the truck the streets more right and they got turned off second hand information about killer I believe that the answer to what we know about this case now since the rest is with thee and the thirty feet of fouls in the GBI office you can have all the flowers you want to without information unless you got somebody that can take some information from out of the fouls and work it and turn it around to something else in that piece of mesh is a good ride that raises the question that I have had Mel and I guess is going to talk about it when recently in preparation for the first could've sworn I met a dedicated long for an author whose case Lee case a gentle unsolved double murder he was willing to basically open up this entire case file is a big file it may not be thirty feet long but it's certainly a huge and he's brainstorming with other law enforcement agencies and in he's willing to do whatever it takes to share information to try to shake something now so to your knowledge has the GBI ever done anything like that what is isn't a pride thing I mean I know that there's a certain reasons long for snow holds back information because only the suspect would know that I don't know for five GB ABA already an expert from the outside to look it over I don't know that for sure but I seriously doubt the getting a good night's sleep is definitely easier said than done especially if you think you just heard a noise downstairs think about it what you do in that situation for all the lights and keep watch your kids beds every single hour sleep with one eye open or you can rest easy knowing that your home and family are protected simply say you stole your sympathy home security system are arming your home with powerful sensors to actually tell you if doors open the window breaks one hundred and five decibel siren alerts with the first sign of trouble to add to that of a dedicated team of security professionals watching over you twenty four seven ready to send the police it was simply save there's no long term contracts get around the clock monitoring for only fourteen ninety it's time to sleep easy to protect your home will spend one more night second guessing your home safety just get simply say get some rest to simply save the calm slash vanished get a special ten percent discount when you order today that simply save the calm flash finished the the to do more hurting or helping the withhold information from the general public for an extended period of Iraq this case well it's possible the crowd sourced things to solve mysteries there's legitimate reasons for a lot for Flint to withhold certain items that as a massager but it also makes sense to share some stuff with the public because as what we see with this podcast way uses the term is I say that the podcast literally shook the trees until something fell out right now what fell out is that the whole truth or a part of the truth it's an open question in my mind but but it definitely stirred things up to the point that there's now some rest way you know they say in the middle of force I was in a foursome that despite the efforts of our investigators and police in any case the public solves crime by somebody come in for our science they sow something given to tee up something in our public solve crime how can the public saw on this case when they never heard from the GBI about the case in the first place it's a me it brings a bigger issue it's really with Georgia on this one because different states have different laws right though when it comes to the clothes records law allows one to worse for the GBI could if they choose to do so open up their files they can really see anything good to have the option of course before the gag order an alley other judicial e prohibited from before that they could've used the public because in every case that it's a mystery somebody somewhere something from and if you can stir the pot and make people nervous may call and that's what we initially saw happen here absolutely like you summaries you're convince that there's evidence and information in that thirty feet of files of the GBI hasn't aired Wednesday case that links to likely Ryan Duke or bow do and what may have really happened to Tara and that these are just brand this isn't just brand new random information that maybe some of those little rabbit holes were Jason those little kernels of information inside that case file could link back to this maybe it's in there yeah got my letter rated SNL FedEx ma ma GA records requests just as soon as the time is proper to get the hoe in tar FAO which is probably about two or three thousand dollars see they for you but the thing but it probably cost three thousand dollars probably will there will be probably lots of open records requests for it and probably every media allies that it's interested in this case would fall of the same request and they would all get the same response I mean technically Ryan Dukes attorney made the same request he's allowed that's part of all he has to be given the information the discovery process they've got they've got to give him everything not just evidence that may show to his guilt that they got to show the next culprit for e information and if you think about it was that mean that means other people that regulatory evidence is anything that points away from the Hughes Gil comes out of the case called Brady versus Maryland called Brady material is the scope of Tori and even think about in this case if you had any given person who was a suspect in any point in time then that is considered the school for E as well so if they considered me for example have been a suspect in two thousand file though did have a good album if they considered a suspect then that would be fair game for cross examination age and so and so isn't it true that you at one time you accuse Holly this right you know so that's all Raymond Felix culpa Tori and the defense is entitled to have all the runners attorneys and use that not only to maybe disprove what the GBI saying but also to suggest somebody else that's all we gotta do is create a kernel of reasonable doubt reasonable doubt is simply a doubt for which to reason can be attached and it doesn't have to be much at all if they can plant the seed of reasonable doubt in the mind of one that causes a mistrial the jury is home when I try case with a notepad taking notes of what witnesses are saying but I have a separate pan it's just for bullet points closing argument comes if witnesses said something that was unusual I'll just jot it down on my list and so hopefully by the time the trials overall have a long laundry list of things I'll say the jury and say look this is what reasonable doubt is a down to which a reason can be attached and I don't know if you guys listen during this trial but a nun got this long list of reasons right here any one of which is sufficient to be reasonable doubt and if you abide in I just read them the NES doubt for which a reason to be attached and Ryan Dukes attorney has thirty p to file to do that with the largest case file in Georgia to do that with potentially disprove what they're saying it's just somebody else love God also the I think most people do believe that Ryan has made either a full confession or some kind of incriminating statement so the defense might need to bring in an X for own false confessions for example is true we all know that people have been exonerated who confessed false confessions do happen I'm not saying that's what happened in this case but if I'm defending it is something that I'm going to have to deal with the client made a statement I'm planning on trying this case than I would have to figure a way to work around that statement because that's going to be a big piece of the case against him and filter that same point we don't know for sure if Ryan Duke to confess that's purely speculation really to you because of how specific the indictment is even if it sounds crazy it is very specific I think he's told them that I've got a nice solid reasons for believing some kind of statement of if not a full confession but the warrants allege for example that she died inside her hole and that he took her dead body from her house and how would they know that if he didn't tell the warrant was written before Ron so the GBI didn't have granting custody to find that out put it in a war so had to come from both the sex was getting at the information inside the indictment about what Ryan allegedly did could that have come from bow in not Ryan himself to have to come from Ryan or that not enough to have someone this guy did this Ok now he was arrested to be fair we don't know when it was written of hope it was before he was arrested you know the police can making arrests let's say I go into the police station here and I confessed how they can arrest me on the spot and put handcuffs on me another in custody in the bingo secure in a war a war that happens quite frequently this kind of the in between there's use is suggesting maybe Ryann was either collected by law enforcement for an interrogation ask some questions can get with them and they arrange something to question him about this and maybe that's when he made some sort of small confession and with that information they charged him that's what I believe happened okay okay I believe they get some information from Brooke and her mom and then they talked to load and then later they talked to Ryan in When they talk Ryan they'd made a decision a good make an arrest that's ah believe in one day and you think that the GBI had to cooperate Bo's version of the story you think Bo ever told the GBI at all a version of how or why Ryan killed Tara or is he just not telling me that I mean and not him directly but through broke assuming that he never told Brooke it would be for him to withhold information from the GBI because if he's talking to them and giving them information is going to be a cooperating witness then if they found out that he's said things to them that were true or that were the complete truth it could jeopardize any deal these guys and it's also illegal in of self to give false statements to police so it would be very dangerous for him to not disclose anything that he doesn't know now that being said happens a lot of people thought the cops and they don't tell the whole truth today's episode is brought you by Macworld these guys are awesome nap all day makes the most comfortable underwear socks boxers briefs and t shirts for men in the game if you're like me absolutely hate going to the store shop clothes especially digging through my assortment of socks and boxers this was 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exactly happened with a question that his forces validity or bows personal involvement if I'm investigating this case if I'm the road to its now Lena I'm going to ask him lots of detail questions and I'm going to ask you what did Ryan say about this out asking the question I would say Ryan say why did it did Ryan say how good it did Ryan say anything else about what he was doing over he gave the same answer that Brooke gave me which is allegedly what Bo told Brooke unless he says something different to the GBI that answer would be a look of shame nothing firm just a look of shame is the GBI is going except that as truth or do they think it's weird just like I think it's weird if that's how it went down they would have to believe it's weird and quite frankly that is also a good reason for the defense lawyers argued that those not credible and if Bo has all these details about everything else except what happened inside the house why wouldn't move simply ask Ryan this body is presented to him while they just say what the hell did or why did you do according to Brooke E did and he just never answered than just the look of game that doesn't have the ring of truth to that look a shame as sexually somehow which strange yeah that's not what we get from that look of shame that you could be shameful but a lot of things why specifically something sexual yeah that could be just killing terror in any fashion try but why she took it to the sexual por I'm not really will Lowe knows a lot apparently but if he if these details are limited to just what happened afterwards if you're on jury do you really believe that he's not going to ask Ryan do why did you kill are or how did you kill are or what happened in that house that's what a rational person would do certainly what I would do if you came to me and told me something like that or should be where you just killed somebody especially if you're going to participate and join her body from that point forward I don't care how evil that is something that logically happens is that you find out what happened before you get involved that's exactly my point if you come to me in and show me that you've just killed somebody probably the second thing I'm a dude called police but the first thing to do so ask you what the hell happened and what is the benefit for both happened on that so I can't figure out either he was scared of what Brooke said I don't bow that I think that the burning and destroying the body benefited both just much as Ryan would allow both of them to get by with a crime for almost twelve years old Maurice you're so you're suggesting if I'm reading you correctly that you think Bo may have been involved in the murder that would be the impetus for him happy about that Bo would not be linked terrorists being killed there so I there is nothing in it for him to go try to get rid of the evidence I don't believe that rhyme with the law get out there so I don't believe that Ron went to the pecan orchard out of his own choice without knowing about it wonder why he chose the orchard in the first place that's right it's not his orchard Ezra so why did he trust that no one would find on the orchard has always been private property I mean according to Brook Story which is allegedly bows story is that Bo found out for sure that air was murdered on that Wednesday in that Wednesday is when Ryan allegedly took Bo to tears body was on the orchard I don't believe that it's very strange that Ryan would wait two days and then all the sudden take him there in the person you know how intense the searchers searching was going on by that time for Tara just to be laying in the open as described by Brooke very very strange the whole thing just smells funny to me the indictment seems to go right along with that snowing just as funny if not funnier I just think you should just keep on doing what you don't agree with that because somebody needs to question the narrative and that's what the podcast is presently doing it may very it happened exactly like it's alleged in the indie ok maybe that didn't happen that way but I think it's productive to question things the way that you're doing and to test whether what we're being told is the truth and if you're after the truth of good investigators to always follow the evidence wherever it leads to the truth and if the law enforcement has been misled in this case then you'd be let them know that if you if you uncover some information that didn't exactly happen that way yet actually be doing all four for the service you'll be doing a service to everybody who's interested in this case is certainly to Tara and to her family I mean it's not about proving I would try to find out if possible or just ask my what was the impetus for them or won't and this whole thing with the camera in secrecy they in camera to secrecy that was originally written along with the gag order what was the motive behind the reason why they won't do that and who won't cause da da and the defense attorney didn't object to that who wanted it while the use of the judges do our to be asked by one of the parties to do it and there's no written motion in the case file asking for a gag order so that had to be something that was discussed or early Friday The The The The The listening guys today's episode was mixed and mastered by resonate recordings want to improve the quality of your podcasts are pockets of your own email resume recordings Dakar and don't forget our new podcast Warren debuts this Wednesday June fourteen thirty pm Eastern Time if you haven't yet please subscribe to swarm on Apple podcast we also have a special bonus episode for you coming this friday up and vanished into the team attended the First Annual Crime come of it we got to meet fans and do live Q and A's do some really cool interviews we recorded all that for you to hear to look for a bonus cry Khan episode this Friday and last but not least
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