Shape the Conversation

We're back for a special episode! Big thanks to Kirk Williams of Zato Marketing for joining Nicole and Jon. In this episode of Shape the Conversation, Kirk provides his perspective as a PPC agency owner and we (Nicole and Jon) compare it to our experience running a SaaS company in the same space.Kirk talks through how he thinks about providing value for his customers in a world where the ad networks are seeking to create direct relationships with advertisers. Nicole and Jon talk about how although our industry is one where you can build a profitable SaaS company, there is much less venture capital appetite for PPC-focused technology then there was 5 years ago.Reach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast! jon@shape.io nicole@shape.io max@shape.io

Nicole and Jon have been in the business of PPC Management Software for many years and know all of the in and outs, dos and don'ts associated with choosing the right platform for your PPC agency. Nicole and Jon cover topics like:What is and isn't PPC Management SoftwareThe difference between reporting software and management softwareAll management platforms for PPCersThe importance of automation How the world of management platforms for PPC has changed over time"Point Solutions" versus platformsThe biggest competition to all PPC management platformsAnd more...The biggest takeaway from this episode is to go look into PPC Management Softwares because it is not as overwhelming as you might think. Making the change to better manage your ads and budget could really put your team ahead your competition. There really aren't that many companies out there making management software for PPC agencies, but you will need to identify your needs and figure out which platform is best for you and your team.Hanapin Marketing Product LinkReach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io✉️ Max@shape.io

On this episode of Shape the Conversation we invited the great, Michael Mack, into our set to tell us all about his new LinkedIn post titled, "Accountability & Freedom". Michael and Jon cover topics like:What does it mean to be accountableThe will to wanting to make a changeHow to own your own accountabilityHow to be happy with who you areGoal VS IntentionFeeling "stuck: between choices you don't likePracticing the constant smoothes you outDon't blame others, don't blame yourself. Mistakes happen in life and being accountable means finding a solution that solves the issue and works for everyone involved. Take the things that didn't work as a learning experience, not as a failure. Keep your attention on the outcome you want to create and let go of blame."The primary outcomes of Accountability are improved results and an increased sense of choice and interestingly enough, freedom.  Try it yourself." -Michael MackReach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io✉️ Max@shape.io

Every day users are seeing hundreds of ads while they play apps. There is no saying how many of the ads that are seen are fake or real. A BuzzFeed article, written by Craig Silverman, sheds some light on one major act of ad fraud that resulted in millions of dollars being stolen from advertisers.In this episode of 'Shape the Conversation' Nicole and Jon cover topics like:The details of the schemeThe amount of money that these ads have takenBig companies impacted by fraudulent adsConcerns with children on devices todayPeople starting to question advertising as a wholeTips to avoid fraudulent adsTips to avoid being seen as a fraudulent adThe poor quality of traffic on mobile adsand more...Our biggest take away from this episode is, know where your ads are going and how to control the placement of your ads so they don't get mistaken as ad fraud. Companies That Worked With The Apps/Sites In Some Way.Option 1 for controlling ad placement.Option 2 for controlling ad placement.Reach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io

You have an amazing new idea. No one has ever done anything like this before. But can you get it in front of anyone to get validation that it is that great of an idea? Is anyone searching Google for the solution you’ve created?Nicole and Jon have had to tackle this challenge before and have some advice for creating digital ad campaigns when search volume might be low or the search phrases you want to target are less obvious. In this episode of ‘Shape the Conversation’, Nicole and Jon cover topics like:How to find details on the ads of any potential “competitors”Focusing on the questions your target market are asking Google to find search phrases to target. How to leverage the Google Ads Keyword Planner to research what people may be searching for.Ways to think about quickly explaining your new product/service to the market.Our biggest takeaway is that you can use this process as a way to prove to yourself and others that there is a market for your idea. Digital marketing is a great way to get your product out to the world and begin getting feedback, even before you build.Reach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io

We believe an important first step to any project is to have a clear vision of who your customers will be and what problem they will solve your solution. Knowing this will help you set appropriate goals and build solutions that actually get used once they exist. Nicole and Jon went in-depth on:How knowing your target market can be invaluable to helping you gauge interest pre-launch.Why persona based target market strategies sometimes don’t tell the whole story.But how personas are useful for researching the size of a market.Why a target market of ‘everyone on earth’ is probably a mistake. Why once you pin down a target market, you need to talk to as many people as you can in it. How free trials are a great low-friction way to build an audience in a target market.Ultimately, you shouldn’t fall in love with your solution, but you should fall in love with the problems of your target market. And it all starts with defining the target market. 

Jon is a big fan of Steve Blank and his concept of “getting out of the building” to talk with your customers. Routine conversations with your customers can strangely be one of the toughest habits to maintain. people are busy. Once a month or even once a quarter may seem like too much of a commitment for some. But, these conversations are extremely valuable. Businesses that make customer communication a priority will make better informed product decisions and develop deeper relationships with their customers. This does not mean just waiting for a support ticket or issue to arise. Do the hard work of being pro active and facilitating conversations with your customers at all times. Don’t make the mistake of assuming a quiet customer is a happy customer. Reach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io

LinkedInShould be on the short list of consideration for any marketers selling a B2B product. The combination of an exploding audience and rapidly improving ad targeting options is driving a lot more advertisers to consider investing in the platform. We love that you can target a specific list of emails or LinkedIn profiles with campaigns and have seen great engagement with our ads using this targeting. Be wary of the high cost per click you'll see on LinkedIn. If you are launching a new campaign make sure you monitoring it closely post launch. QuoraThe question and answer site provides a vast array of topics and questions that marketers can target ads to. We love this granularity. We also love the advertising experience on Quora. The ads are subtle and text only. We've seen great results from previous campaigns we've run on the network. The downside of Quora for most marketers will be trying to generate a high enough volume of clicks to make the time investment worth it. If you are targeting digital marketers as a base this may even be getting tougher as Nicole feels like the activity on digital marketing focused topics has been waning a little on Quora over the last year or so from her point of view. RedditReddit is a volatile, unique corner of the internet. Proceed with caution. The community is tight knit and does not tend to take kindly to advertisers. But the vibrant and diverse interests of the community means that there are a lot of opportunities for B2B and B2C marketers. We love that you can target specific subreddits. On a site where you'll be vilified for pushing your company's products in the threads, we believe advertising is actually a more honest way to get in front of the reddit audience. We have had success driving clicks by targeting r/ppc in the past. If you can find a subreddit where your target market is hanging out, we'd recommend giving it a shot. The platform is self serve and cheap to get started. TwitchThe platform for live streaming people playing video games is starting to expand its ad business. Owned by Amazon, it's easy to see how they could be a force in the years to come. Twitch's audience is growing. Currently, 104 million monthly active users consume content and 2.2 million people create content on the platform. If you are trying to reach the male demographic, this could be a great option. 81% of Twitch users are male with the majority being 18-34 yrs old. One downside is you have to go through a third party to get ads going on the network (unless you are willing to commit $50k to an ad buy directly through twitch).PandoraWe don't have any personal experience on this network but here's a link to a great explanation of what to expect if you do experiment with Pandora.  Pandora has a lot of great targeting options to choose from. SpotifySpotify has a really cool self-serve option called Ad Studio. All you need is a minimum budget of $250 to run an initial experiment. You can "target based on age, gender, location, activity, and music taste. Select mobile, desktop or both so your ad reaches listeners in the right context" according to Spotify.Our best advice with any of these networks is to start with really tight targeting and then branch out. You never quite know what you are going to get until you set a campaign live. We also think now is a great opportunity to get some discounted clicks on these networks before big ad buyers come into the networks en masse and drive up prices. Reach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io

As Nicole puts it, the ultimate threat to most companies is 'losing the eyeballs'. This is especially true for networks like Google, Facebook and LinkedIn which command huge percentages of people's attention. These networks build features and new tools to grab more of people's attention. And it's working. LinkedIn has seen an explosion of activity over the last few years. With so many people creating content, just being present isn't enough. You need to find ways to uniquely break into someone's attention. At Shape, we've been experimenting with some new ways to try to break through the noise. Nicole and Jon talk the most recent experiment which led to Jon filming this announcement video in the Oregon desert for our most recent feature launch. Every marketing challenge is unique. There is no blueprint. But if everyone is doing one thing, maybe it is the best time to think about how to do something else.

We highly recommend you read through Raskin's writing on LinkedIn to pull out all the nuance for yourself. But in our eyes his post, "The Greatest Sales Pitch I've Seen All Year" is the place to start. Nicole and Jon broke down the 5 elements to a crafting a powerful story for your product/company/service according to Raskin which are:#1 Start with a big, undeniable change that creates stakes#2 Name the enemy#3 Tease the “Promised Land”#4 Position capabilities as “magic” for slaying “monsters”#5 Present your best evidence Nicole and Jon have seen this principles at work in high growth companies but never seen it articulated so clearly before Raskin.We also highly recommend checking out more of Raskin's work starting with "How Winners Really Differentiate" and "Why Great Pitches Come From Customers". 

With an emphasis on empathy, vulnerability and transparency Rand's writing style allows readers to see the good, the bad and the ugly of his experience. Rand is undoubtedly one of the pivotal figures in modern digital marketing. Moz's early success set them on a path of raising ~$30 million dollars from venture capitalists and forever changing the company to focus on software. Rand writes about his struggles coping with this new phase of the business and what he'd do differently. One idea that stood out to us was the concept of a "startup cheat code". Rand's best advice for starting a company is to solve a problem you have yourself, that's the cheat code. This way you know what to build early on and have the validation of at least an audience of one. We can echo this sentiment because our platform is built to solve problems our team saw first hand in our careers. Early on especially, this was a huge advantage when building new features. Other concepts, ideas and events of the book we discussed:Why despite all his negative feelings for the fund raising process, he still chose to raise $1.5 million dollars from investors for his new company. He did tweak the way he went about it this time, but Rand is a realist when it comes to the advantages capital provides early stage companies. Flywheels > Growth HacksWe wonder how Moz employees are reacting to the book in which Rand describes the experience as a "mostly horrible, sometimes awesome experience."Why entrepreneurs are actually some of the most risk adverse people out there. They don't take risks for risks sake. Why Jon hates stats like '1 in every 150 startups lasts 5 years'.The importance of building a diverse team for the health of your product. We commend Rand for his "painfully honest guide to the startup world." It can't be easy to describe in detail some of the toughest moments of your life. Will be fascinating to follow the journey of Rand's new company SparkToro and see how he adjusts. Check out Rand's book "Lost and Founder".If you want another perspective on the same story, Rand's wife Geraldine DeRuiter wrote "All Over the Place: Adventures in Travel, True Love, and Petty Theft".Reach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io

People seem predisposed to resist advertising and marketing because they don't want to feel manipulated. People also tend to lump all advertising in with the worst advertising they are exposed to. Nicole and Jon dug into people's relationship to advertising/marketing and covered topics like:- How Jon believes people don't hate advertising, they hate bad advertising.- Bad advertising = wrong person, wrong time, wrong message- How great advertising can truly enrich someone's life.- Some of the best and worst advertising Nicole and Jon have seen in the market today. - Why search advertising is close to the perfect advertising experience - Breaking down the opinion some people hold of "advertising doesn't work on me."- Why it only takes a few bad ads to change your mindset on advertising as a whole.- It's important to be more than an Excel Wizard. We think bad advertising comes from marketers forgetting there is a human on both ends of the conversation. Having more empathy for who is seeing the ad, when they are seeing the ad and how the message speaks to them is more important than ever. Don't get lost in the data all the time. Pick your head up out of the Excel sheet more often and think about the person consuming your advertising. 

Nicole and Jon covered a bunch of ways to improve the communication channels and influence you have over the management of your company including:The importance of knowing your boss's motivations and goals when pitching them an idea.The importance of knowing your boss's personality to craft a pitch. Why you should invite yourself to meetings where your ideas are being discussed.A story of the most unique tactic Nicole has used to get a C-Level manager's attention.Why you should never just bring your boss a problem without an idea for how to solve it.The importance of trying to never blindside your boss with a problem. Why being self-aware can be a super power when handling a boss. It's tough not having complete autonomy. But few people truly do. We all need to get people to see the world as we do and the way it could be to bring new ideas into the world. You'll have a better chance of actually galvanizing support if you have put in the work and bring not just the problem that needs solved, but solutions for how to solve it to management. Take advantage of the fact that a lot of people like to be editors of ideas, not the ones creating ideas from scratch. Present a version one or a possible path you feel strongly about in these situations and we think you'll see more of your ideas becoming reality. Reach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io

Under Julie Harrelson's leadership, Cascade Angels has become a go to place for early stage companies looking seed funding in the Northwest. It's no mystery as to why. Julie and her investors have a reputation for being extremely founder friendly during the pitching process. In this episode, we dig into what it is like to pitch a room full of investors and how you can prepare. Jon has experience being on the other side of the table. He pitched Julie and her investors (unsuccessfully) in 2015 when Shape was raising a seed round. They compare notes on how to craft your pitch deck to really get attention from investors. Julie detailed the challenges that women face in today's environment where less than 10% of VC funds are women led and how she believes true change will begin to occur. Julie also covered:Why Getting Founders Quick Answers Is Important to Cascade AngelsThree months can be an eternity for a startup so time is of the essence when fund raising.Common Reasons She'll Pass on an OpportunityIt's not always as simple as whether or not the company is built on a good idea. Timing is crucial. The Shared Trait of Founders They Have BackedJulie thinks there are founders who want to be "king of the world" successful financially and then there are those that want to be successful on levels in addition to just financials. She talks about which type she invests in.How Julie Evaluates a Marketing and Sales PlanAre you telling a story? Are you being authentic? Can you scale this plan?Why "Operational Strength" in a Company is a Key FactorHaving an idea is one thing. It's a whole other thing to turn the idea into an investable company.  Why Not All Succesful Companies are Investable CompaniesA company can be a success but also a bad fit for investors.The Challenges Faced By Women EntreprenuersStudies have been done that show when pitching investors, male entrepreneurs are asked about the opportunity and female entrepreneurs are asked more about the risk. "Turns out it’s much more difficult to defend risk then promote opportunity." Why Julie Believes Women Are Over-Mentored and Under-SponsoredJulie challenges mentors to take the extra step of being a sponsor to a women entrepreneur, not just a mentor, and getting more skin in the game.The Biggest Changes Julie Has Seen in Marketing Over the Last 15 YearsThere is more noise and data then ever before. But scaling marketing and sales in often the differentiator Julie sees in her portfolio companies that are able to "break through the growth curve." Checkout Julie on Twitter @JulieHarrelsonReach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io

Facebook has undergone scrutiny and allegations regarding their business and Nicole and Jon cover many topics around them like:The congressional hearings and Zuckerberg's message to congress about advertisingThe "core" of Facebook's revenueHow Facebook has successfully monetized Instagram and WhatsAppThe influence of bots on the ad ecosystemKeeping ad platforms from being "spammy"Facebook's influence on the fabric of societyPredictions of where Fecebook will go from hereNicole and Jon believe that Facebook will continue to thrive even after all issues of 2018. But the big question is what will Facebook do next? Maybe a search engine? Facebook has been on the forefront of the social media industry for over a decade. But there are still many sectors they haven't delved into yet. Reach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io

Michael talked in depth about how he views growth, marketing and competition. The reality is,"If you don't grow, you die in the beer business." - Michael LaLonde, CEO, Deschutes BreweryThe status quo isn't an option for Deschutes and craft brewers like them. But, finding ways to continue to build a brand and invest in marketing when attribution is sometimes non-existent isn't easy. Michael goes into specifics around how they face these challenges as an organization.  Why if You Don't Grow You Die in the Beer BusinessThe costs of making beer are rising faster the beer prices. The only way to survive is to continue to find ways to improve gross margins. The Biggest Change to Marketing According to MichaelFocus groups don't work. The consumer no longer behaves like they say they will when in a focus group. This means they have to do more experimenting in public and can't really predict what will happen. The Marketing KPI's Deschutes Uses to Make DecisionsThey look at Net Promoter Score and a few metrics to judge brand awareness but one unique to Deschutes is 'purchase frequency per household'. Even a small percentage shift in that KPI is a huge win for their company. The Non-KPI Goals Deschutes has for Their Marketing EffortsMichael wants their marketing to focus on the stories and values that make them who they are as a company. If their videos and content are doing this they are on track.  Michael's Biggest Struggle With MarketingThere is no ROI or it's almost impossible to see the ROI of any one marketing effort vs another in the beer world. Deschutes has had to make peace with certain blind spots in their tracking. The Surprising Way Deschutes Views Their CompetitionThere are 7,000 breweries in the U.S., one in every congressional district but Michael views their competition not as other craft brewers but the non-craft breweries that still make up 85% of beer sales. Why Deschutes has Never Purchased Another BreweryManagement has evaluated a few potential acquisitions but Deschutes has always felt their clearest path to growth was focusing on how they could get better, not adding new breweries. Why Deschutes Has Never SoldMichael discusses how the values of their founder still feed the decision to stay independent today. Taking Over for a Legendary CEOBeing mentored by Gary Fish and what he learned from the way he ran the company was huge for Michael. The biggest lessons he took from Gary were to question everything along the way and don't be afraid to always ask why. How Deschutes Grooms Their Future LeadersPromoting people from within means nurturing them along the way. Michael uses his one-to-one meetings with his direct reports and people throughout the company to ensure that they are always thinking about the next generation that will lead the company. Sending Employees to Work at Other Companies to LearnDeschutes has a really cool employee swap program with Clif bar and others that let Deschutes employees do a tour of duty at another company to gain perspective. Michael thinks that it's a great way to see your own challenges through a new lens. Podcast Recommendations Michael loves listening to podcasts. his favorite right now is "How I Built This". The podcast covers stories from founders and CEOs about building and growing their companies. Reach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io

Michael talked about how he found his way to Bend and a lot of the core values that make Deschutes Brewery tick. He believes deeply that,"When an individual works for a company and they can have an impact on that company they are much happier." - Michael LaLonde, CEO, Deschutes BreweryHow He Got his First Job with DeschutesDespite the "worst interview" of all time, Michael still landed the job as CFO of Deschutes more than 10 years ago because of how he handled a tough situation at a previous job. Craft Beer Industry and Deschutes Brewery 10 Years AgoMichael goes through the challenges and opportunities facing craft beer during this important period of growth for Deschutes. KPI'sThe key performance indicators and stats that Deschutes uses to measure success. Why Deschutes Decided to Build a Pub in Portland, ORThe company was failing to meet it sales goals. Even though the numbers didn't look good, management decided to call up the bank and ask for a line of credit to build a pub in Portland. Michael shares the thinking behind their decision. The "Halo Effect" of the Deschutes' Reserve SeriesHow concentrating on their reserve series pushed their brand to a new level.Deschutes' High Standards Why they dumped $250k worth of product because it didn’t meet their own criteria aesthetically, even though it tasted great.How They Chose What to Brew Back in the DayMichael describes the legendary Friday meetings where a small team of management and brewmasters tasted beers and thought about what was next.How They Choose What to Brew Today and the Influence of TechnologyHow a beer idea gets through the gauntlet and actually brewed in a more modern world. Micheal sheds light on the new technology that is changing what beers hit the market.The Power of TransparencyMicheal tells the story of how Deschutes made it through some tough internal struggles by being transparent with where every dollar was going with all employees. Don’t just ask for feedback but hear it and take action. The Deschutes strategic planning process is unique in the sheer amount of information they take in from consumers and employees. Michael talks through some of the the questions they ask on their employee surveys and the process for making sure action is taken on the feedback.Having Company Wide Q&A'sDeschutes routinely has an open Q&A’s with the whole company of 571 co-owners. Micheal stresses why its important to be open to the fact that you can continually get better when handling feedback.Deschutes' Message to Employees on Day One Always be looking for things we can be doing better and speak up about it. Next week, Michael and Jon continue the conversation and breakdown how Deschutes thinks about marketing and the crowded world of craft brewing today.Reach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io

In this episode, Nicole and Jon cover a bunch of topics surrounding Google/Alphabet including:Jon's blog post, "Still the Best Analogy for Google's Business Model I've Ever Heard." (Here is Jon's self proclaimed 'heroic tweet' about it)They talked through a Business Insider article breaking down Alphabet's Q2 earningsNicole's ongoing frustration that every year, for the last 10 years, has been labeled "The Year of Mobile"Google's ability to feed constant innovation with massive amounts of cash created by search advertising Nicole and Jon believe that Alphabet is well positioned to continue as a dominant force in tech and society at large. No major indicators show competitors have the ability to execute on small parts of Alphabet's business undertakings such as Google Maps.  With search advertising and Google becoming even more of a part of people's lives, it's important to question what will Alphabet do next? What more can they do to continue to innovate and push the limits? The decisions they make over the coming years will create ripples that affect nearly every business that exists today. Reach out to us with any ideas, questions, or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io

In this episode, Jon and Michael go through three defining events in Michael's career and how they demonstrate his core beliefs. Event #1 - Leaving Bain to Found a CompanyIn his 30's, Michael made the decision to leave his consulting job at Bain to do something radically different: open up restaurants. It was the 80's and he believed American society was about to embrace a healthier way of life. He believed so strongly in this mission that he set out to find a restaurant making food matching his vision and spread it nationally. Jon dug up this LA times article from 1986 where Michael and co-founder Tony Brooke are described as, "The two young entrepreneurs hope their all-you-can-eat, self-serve Souplantation, which they bought two years ago, will ride the coattails of the health-food movement and propel them into the big leagues of the restaurant industry."Micheal reflects on these days and how they had the confidence to make a small company larger. Event #2 - Being Fired from the Company He FoundedAt 39, he had taken the company public and seen success few entrepreneurs do. But, with growth slowing and costs rising the pressure was intense going into the 90's. The board, which included his father, would eventually decide to fire Michael from his position as CEO. This article from HBR details the day he was given the news and how it rocked his world. Micheal digs into what it was like that day and the weeks, months and years after. He offers advice on how to navigate your own thoughts or 'head trash' as he calls it and make the decisions that are best for you and those around you. Micheal credits his willingness to be vulnerable during those times as the main factor that lead to Event #3...Event #3 - Being Rehired as CEOInstead of just retreating into the shadows, Michael remained as a board member and actively helped transition the new leadership into power. By continuing to be a positive force he fostered trust in those around him. Years later the board voted to rehire him as CEO. He has since left Gardenfresh group but he talked about how his time away from the job of CEO in the 90's changed him and helped him successfully lead the company in his second tenure as CEO. Micheal's journey demonstrates the power of humbleness and vulnerability. Where to find Michael:LinkedInHis WebsiteReach out to us with any ideas, questions or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io

It's common to hear there are ‘riches in niches’.  But you should be on the lookout for signs that indicate maybe you should look beyond whatever niche you find yourself in. Jon and Nicole talked through some of the indicators there might be good reasons to venture out:Your niche is limiting your growth potential in painful way.Your niche is at risk of being fundamentally altered by a shift in the market beyond your control. Your product has a customer base submitting feature requests that overwhelming indicate you should build something outside of your niche.Your team is bored with solving the challenges of your current niche. Your niche creates seasonal revenue spikes that are tough to manage. Your niche is being better served by a bigger, faster, stronger competitor.The best takeaway from this episode is, beware of mirages. Really really prove it to yourself before you make the big decision to leave a niche. Use data, get feedback from your team, talk to advisors. Do the work to prove to yourself that the effort to go outside of your niche is worth it. Reach out to us with any ideas, questions or feedback on the podcast!✉️ Nicole@shape.io✉️ Jon@shape.io