Spiritual Life and Leadership

Terry Walling is Founder and President of Leader Breakthru and the author of Unlikely Nomads. In this episode, Terry Walling shares about people he calls “nomads.”  They love Jesus, but they don’t love the more traditional expressions of the church.  They want to be part of the church, but the way most of our churches are structured isn’t life-giving for them.Terry and I reflect together on what a “nomad” is, what “nomads” are longing for, and how churches like yours and mine can love and bless “nomads” as they seek to live out their love for Jesus.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Terry Walling expresses his passion for mentoring leaders who are willing to take risks within the kingdom.He reflects on his own transformation from pastor to leadership development expert during a significant transition period.Walling shares humorous anecdotes from his pastoring days, particularly while presiding over the church his parents attended.Terry Walling discusses the shift from traditional programmatic church models to environments that foster safe and meaningful community connections.Terry Walling believes that church expressions are changing, with "Unlikely Nomads" capturing this evolutionary process.Walling advises the church to unlearn old paradigms and embrace new ones to stay relevant and effective.He emphasizes the importance of creating safe spaces for community interaction over adherence to traditional programmatic structures.The concept of a "bridging church" is presented as a means to help individuals reintegrate into their local communities.Terry Walling speaks about "unlikely nomads" within the church who seek a more profound journey with God and authenticity in their faith.He discusses the challenge of transforming church structures and the need to focus on personal renewal before organizational change.Terry Walling proposes that a shift towards personal discipleship can lead the way for structural transformations within the church.Markus Watson and Terry Walling hosts highlight the gradual, faithful process required for becoming more genuine followers of Jesus.They discuss the relevance of learning from those who have left the church to gain a broader understanding of faith and community.Walling and Watson emphasize the importance of not forcing individuals to conform to existing church expressions, but to have open conversations.The conversation delves into the difficulties church leaders face when adapting to evolving congregational expectations and societal shifts.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINK:Terry Walling:Leader BreakthruPodcast - The Nomad ChroniclesBooks mentioned:Unlikely Nomads, by Terry WallingStuck, by Terry WallingDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson unpack a powerful quote from Steve Carter, "You only learn resilience through the fire and through the suffering." This quote emerged from Steve Carter's experience of letting go of everything he had known and worked towards when he offered his resignation from a church leadership position in the wake of abuse allegations against the senior pastor, Bill Hybels. From this, the conversation explores the concept of resilience and how leaders are formed in the crucible of change and suffering. Tod Bolsinger draws from his work in Tempered Resilience to discuss the importance of reflection, relationships, and spiritual practices in developing resilience in the face of suffering.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Markus Watson in Episode 163, You Can't Be Found if You're Never Lost :“You only learn resilience through the fire and through the suffering.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders develop resilience through facing the crucible of change and suffering.Reflecting, nurturing relationships, and spiritual practices are essential in developing resilience.Steve Carter's quote emphasizes the importance of willingly engaging with suffering to learn resilience.Formative leadership happens when individuals courageously face challenges, seeking growth amidst suffering.Resilience isn't just about enduring hardship, it's about embracing reflective practices and nurturing supportive relationships.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Daniel Lee is the academic dean for the Center for Asian American Theology and Ministry at Fuller Theological Seminary and author of Doing Asian American Theology.Daniel Lee discusses the fact that each of us does theology from a particular persepective.  Recognizing our own "particularities" makes us far better leaders.  Why?  Because the more we are aware of our own cultural particularities, the more we become competent as leaders in regard to one another's cultural particularities.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Daniel Lee discusses the idea of God transcending divisive issues and the theological basis for God's perception of people.Daniel Lee initially saw his Korean heritage as baggage and tried to shed his cultural identity for a more generic evangelical perspective, but later realized the importance of embracing his Asian American identity in relation to his faith and theology.Initially resistant to being an Asian American theologian, Daniel Lee eventually embraced the need to articulate and address the significance of his cultural identity in his theological work.Daniel Lee points out that everyone has their own perspective and that when some perspectives become normalized, others are seen as abnormal. This issue exists in society and churches.Lee highlights the absence of modern-day race in the Bible and emphasizes the interaction between God and individuals, suggesting God's unique interaction with each person.Daniel Lee compares Asian American theology to the witness of God found in the gospels, emphasizing that theology is contextual and filtered through human perspective.It is important to recognize theology from an Asian American perspective and to witness to the one God collectively, while acknowledging that different perspectives yield a robust understanding of God.Ministry leaders need to move beyond crude stereotypes depicted in pop culture and gain a deeper understanding of colonial history and community-specific challenges.It is so important to gain more vocabulary and knowledge about different communities.  We also need humility and adaptiveness when interacting with individuals and communities.Both Daniel Lee and Markus Watson talk about the importance of discerning and joining in with what God is doing within communities.It is important to understand particularity in theology, as well as apply ministry in specific and precise ways rather than using a generic approach.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Daniel Lee:Center for Asian American Theology and MinistryBooks mentioned:Doing Asian American Theology, by Daniel LeeDoing Local Theology, by Clemens SedmakChurch Leadership InstituteRelated Episodes:Episode 173: The Art of Interpreting Culture, with Justin BaileyEpisode 167: Called to Each Other, with Claude AlexanderEpisode 149: Ministry Leadership in a Racialized Society, with David SwansonEpisode 143: How the Church Can Respond to Immigration, with Karen GonzalezDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore a powerful quote from Lisa Lamb: "An abdication of leadership is also an abuse of leadership." Lisa's perspective as a preaching professor adds a unique angle to the discussion, highlighting the responsibility of leaders to recognize and respond to the needs they see in the world. Tod shares insights from his experience, emphasizing the collaborative nature of leadership in calling for change and transformation.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Lisa Lamb in Episode 161: Preaching for Deep Connection:“An abdication of leadership is also an abuse of leadership.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Abdicating leadership responsibilities is an abuse of leadership.Stepping into places of pain and taking responsibility is true leadership.Leadership is about convening people and inviting them to make a difference.Preaching serves leadership by calling people to take responsibility for change.Leadership in a changing world is a collaborative experience that involves using the preaching moment to call people to take responsibility for transformation.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

In this conversation, Adam McHugh, the author of Blood From a Stone, opens up about his transition from ministry as a hospice chaplain to the world of wine, becoming a wine tour guide and sommelier.  Adam shares about the emotional rollercoaster that goes along with redefining one's identity and faith outside of traditionally established ministry roles.For pastors and ministry leaders struggling with letting go of their church-centered identities, or struggling with transitioning in the way they are called to lead in a constantly changing world, this conversation will encourage you to lean into the patience and the inner transformation needed to live and lead in new ways.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Adam McHugh shares his journey from ministry to a new career path, reflecting on the difficulty and fear associated with such a transition.Markus Watson and Adam McHugh explore the prevalence of compassion fatigue among pastors and chaplains, acknowledging the personal toll it takes.The conversation touches on the struggle to redefine personal identity and faith when moving beyond traditional pastoral roles.Adam McHugh recounts his impactful experiences as a hospice chaplain and how they shaped his sense of self and faith.Adam and Markus delve into the "dark night of the soul," discussing the profound search for authenticity amidst life's challenges.Adam McHugh describes his transition from being a pastor and chaplain to a sommelier and wine tour guide, revealing a new chapter of his life.Adam McHugh articulates the struggle of identity and the transformation he underwent from Reverend to sommelier, framing it as an evolution of his humanity.Adam McHugh and Markus Watson emphasize the necessity of acknowledging the end of one life phase before embracing a new one, underscoring the importance of the internal transition process.Markus Watson adds insight into the stress associated with pastoral duties and the importance of embracing one's humanity over a clerical role.Adam McHugh advises pastors grappling with identity transitions to be patient and considerate of the internal processes involved.The discussion reveals Adam McHugh's tumultuous shift from a pastoral identity to embracing a new community and profession.Markus Watson speaks to the ongoing journey of transformation, underscoring the significance of patience and being shaped by God's hand.Adam McHugh advises embracing patience during the difficult process of identity transition, recognizing that it is a part of the continual path of transformation.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Adam McHugh:Email – adammchugh@gmail.comInstagram - @adammchughwineInterVarsity Press bioBooks mentioned:Blood From a Stone, by Adam McHughPowers and Thrones, by Dan JonesManaging Transitions, by William BridgesRelated Episodes:Ep. 142: Navigating the 7 Stages of Transition, with D. Michael LindsayEp. 194: Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff CrosbyDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the transformative power of vocation as they discuss a poignant quote by Steven Garber. Join them as they unpack how each person's calling is  woven into the very meaning of God's work in the world. They shed light on the profound implications of vocation for spiritual formation, the vitality of the church, and the overarching mission of God. With engaging anecdotes and thought-provoking insights, this discussion promises to spark a deeper understanding of vocation's profound impact on individual lives and the collective mission of the church.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scott Thumma in Episode 157: Seamless Leadership:“Vocation is integral—not incidental—to the missio dei, to the very meaning of God’s work in the world.”  THIS EPISODES' HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Every Christian has a calling to participate in God's mission to bring renewal to the world.Our sense of calling is not just about our career or job but is integral to our identity.Every person's vocation, whether paid or unpaid, is sacred and important in the eyes of God.God chooses to use us in His work to restore and renew the world.Vocation involves developing the capacity to hear God's voice and discern our unique calling in life.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

When I walked the Camino de Santiago in 2022, it was something I had been longing to do for years.  After a fairly traumatic experience at a church I'd been serving, the thought of just walking with Jesus for an extended time felt like exactly what I needed.I walked the Camino together with Jon Huckins, the founder and Director of Journey Home.  In this episode, Jon unpacks why pilgrimmage is so meaningful and how it can help those of us in leadership to be our best selves for the sake of those we're leading, for the world, and for ourselves.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jon Huckins is founder and Director of Journey Home and is adjunct professor of New Testament at Point Loma Nazarene University.Jon Huckins describes the transition to the second half of life as a shift from doing to being and embracing one's identity as deeply loved by God.The Camino de Santiago pilgrimage is presented as a crucial tool for self-reflection, challenging external expectations, and engaging spiritual awakening.The transition from leading Global Immersion to starting Journey Home reflects Huckins' focus on facilitating societal and individual healing.Jon Huckins shares the profound influence the Camino pilgrimage has had on his ministry and his dedication to the work of peacemaking.The Camino serves as a means for intentional dislocation to face oneself and the authentic realitiies of life.Huckins comments on the distinct challenges faced by pastors and ministry leaders in an era where their conventional roles are questioned.Pilgrimage, according to Jon Huckins, is linked to the process of acknowledging and grieving loss, while also confronting the resistance to change in our ministries.Becoming second-half-of-life individuals allows for more resilience and a generous, open-hearted approach to leadership.Jon Huckins emphasizes the significance of spaces like the Camino for transformation, focusing on experiencing rather than decision-making.Jon Huckins highlights the transformative power of being fully present and releasing control, as experienced on the Camino.The mission of Journey Home aims to facilitate pilgrimages that act as vehicles for healing and development for leaders.Jon Huckins stresses the importance of pilgrimages like the Camino in aiding Christian leaders through their spiritual and emotional development.The challenges of ministry require spaces and practices that support healing and rejuvenation.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:JourneyHome:Website – Journeyhome.infoInstagram - @journey_home_pilgrimagesBooks mentioned:Falling Upward, by Richard RohrLeadership on the Line, by Ronald HeifetzRelated episodes:Ep 163: You Can’t Be Found if You’re Never Lost, with Steve CarterEp 112: The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark ScandretteChurch leadership InstituteGlobal ImmersionDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the concept of disequilibrium and its impact on systems, leadership, and organizational health. They discuss how prolonged equilibrium can be detrimental to a system's ability to adapt and innovate, and how crises and moments of disequilibrium can actually reveal underlying problems and present opportunities for growth and change. Drawing from experiences and examples, they highlight the potential for systems and individuals to become stronger, more resilient, and healthier due to the experience of disequilibrium.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Markus Watson in Episode 139: Disequilibrium and the Mission of God :"When a system experiences disequilibrium, the system has the opportunity to become stronger, to become more resilient, and even to become healthier." THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Experiencing disequilibrium allows a system to become stronger, more resilient, and healthier.Prolonged equilibrium can lead to a loss of ability to adapt.Crises reveal opportunities to hit the organizational reset button and address underlying issues.Disequilibrium can lead to increased capacity and clarity in dealing with crisis and making hard decisions.Disequilibrium or crisis provides opportunities to make a system stronger.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Would your neighborhood even notice if your church ceased to exist?  I imagine that’s a question many of us have thought about.  Maybe you’ve even posed that question to your congregation.Maybe the question should be, as churches, how do we become more present to our neighborhood.?  That’s what I talk about in this episode with my guest, Tim Soerens, the author of Everywhere You Look: Discovering the Church Right Where You Are.Tim walks us through his shift from wanting to be a big church pastor to learning what it means to truly embody the Christian narrative in our neighborhoods. And he helps us better understand the concept of a parish and what it means to have a “minimum viable presence” in your community.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Tim Soerens emphasizes the need to listen and understand the specific hopes and dreams God has for both communities and individuals.He advises on discerning how to actively address the particular needs and challenges within a neighborhood or parish.The conversation delves into determining a parish's boundaries, considering factors like centers of activity, edges, and resident affiliation.Soerens notes the complexities in identifying a parish in suburban and rural settings, influenced by architectural designs and local governance.Markus Watson discusses the varied needs of communities in serving their neighborhoods effectively.Tim Soerens suggests congregations often comprise multiple parishes, sparking discussion on discerning their locations.Soerens introduces the idea of a 'minimum viable presence' for church experimentation, akin to the business concept of a 'minimum viable product.'He highlights the value of small, experimental initiatives to understand better what works in community outreach.The discussion encourages involving others in these small experiments and celebrating the courage it takes to try new approaches.They stress the freedom to experiment without the fear of failure, emphasizing that each community requires a tailored approach.Soerens recommends starting outreach efforts with curiosity, prayer, and involving others in experimental activities.Tim Soerens shares insights into The Parish Collective's mission and upcoming events, inviting listeners to connect.He recounts a pivotal interaction with Michael Frost that steered him away from preaching-centric community formation to joining what God is already doing.The conversation touches on the formation of The Parish Collective, which encourages congregations to align their ecclesial life around joining God's work.Soerens advocates for a vision of the church that transcends Sunday services, focusing instead on being actively involved in God's hopes and dreams for neighborhoods.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Parish Collective WebsiteBooks Mentioned:Everywhere You Look, by Tim SoerensRelated episodes:Episode 129: Recalibrating the Church Around Jesus, with Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch Episode 185: From Sunday Services to Real Transformation, with E.K. Strawser Episode 177: Exploring New Forms of Church, with Shannon KiserEpisode 191: Thriving Church Leadership in Uncertain Times, with Heather JamesDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the technological challenges faced by congregations during the pandemic. They discuss a quote from Scott Thumma about the hybrid and customizable nature of the world and its implications for congregations. Tod shares insights on the importance of aligning values with technological adaptations, the decreasing willingness to change post-pandemic, and the need for enduring long-term adaptation. Together, they discuss practical strategies for pastors to navigate these challenges and ensure congregations reflect the ever-changing world.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scott Thumma in Episode 198: Clergy, Congregations, and Hope After the Pandemic:“Our world is customizable. It is on demand.  It is hybrid.  It’s virtual as much as it is in person. In the rest of our lives we’ve come to understand that’s how the rest of the world works. So, we really have to think about how do we make our congregations reflect that.” THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Scott Thumma suggests that our world has become customizable, on-demand, and virtual, and calls for congregations to reflect the changes in the wider world.Tod Bolsinger emphasizes that adaptive leadership is not just about technical solutions, but about values, behaviors, and attitudes.The decrease in people's willingness to adapt beyond the crisis is observed, signifying the tendency to revert to the familiar when the crisis has passed.Wise and enduring change requires self-reflection and a shift from short-term crisis adaptations to long-term adaptation in a changing environment.Tod Bolsinger recommends that congregations start by identifying their deepest values and then being willing to change everything else to align with those values.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Barry Rowan has had a 40-year career in leading businesses after graduating from Harvard Business School. He and his wife are entering into a new encore calling, which includes his new book, The Spiritual Art of Business. Barry Rowan, in this episode, challenges the dualism of the sacred and the secular, and shares his incredible journey of surrender, transformation, and integrating faith into his 40-year-business career. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Barry Rowan discusses the paradigm shift he experienced, realizing that life is lived from the inside out, with Jesus at the center of our lives, and everything being an expression of Christ in us.He challenges the dualism between the sacred and the secular, arguing that it causes problems and leads us to live outside of God's purposes.Barry Rowan points out that viewing work through the right lens can make every moment congruent with our purpose in life.Markus Watson reflects on the self-perception challenges people in the business world face, and Rowan emphasizes the need to bring meaning to work and view business roles as noble and sacred callings.Barry Rowan describes the purpose of business as responsible value creation, serving customers, creating an environment for employees to grow, and being a good corporate citizen, all contributing to a better society.Barry Rowan discusses how he approached his Christian beliefs in the workplace, explaining his focus on reflecting God's principles in business operations.The "spiritual art of business cycle," emphasizes surrender, transformation, becoming new creations, and going out into the world.Surrender is the gateway to freedom and leads to personal transformation and the expression of Christ in us.Markus Watson discusses the possibility of the cycle applying to organizations and churches, to which Rowan agrees and emphasizes the need for continuous reimagining and transformation, particularly in the current post-Christendom world.Developing a life-giving perspective of work is so important.Barry Rowan shares examples of individuals finding meaning and purpose in their work, such as a woman making baby monitors and a shuttle bus driver.They discuss how pastors can apply this perspective to their roles, emphasizing the need for personal internalization of their work's spiritual significance.Every moment can be charged with God's presence and we should incorporate that perspective into our daily activities.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Barry RowanWebsite – barrylrowan.comFree The Spiritual Art of Business study guideBooks mentioned:The Spiritual Art of Business, by Barry RowanRelated Episodes:Ep. 27: Developing a Framework for Intentional Spiritual GrowthEp. 44: Spiritual Formation and Lectio DivinaEp. 94: Centering PrayerEp. 126:  A Crisis of Adult DiscipleshipEp. 179:  The Neuroscience of Spiritual FormationEp. 194: Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner LifeDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the distinction between change and transition. Quoting D. Michael Lindsay, they discuss how change happens in an instant, whereas transition unfolds over weeks, months, and sometimes years. Bolstering this idea with personal anecdotes, they delve into the importance of giving oneself the time and space to adapt to change, acknowledging the losses involved, and ultimately finding comfort and growth in the new realities.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Sarah Bereza in Episode 142: Navigating the 7 Stages of Transition:"Change happens to us in an instant.  Transition happens over weeks, months, sometimes even years." THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Understanding the difference between change and transition is crucial for adapting to life's challenges.Acknowledging the loss and grief that come with change can help build resilience and lead to a quicker processing of the transition.Developing patience and perseverance involves recognizing the importance of giving oneself the space to adapt and acknowledging the honesty of what has been lost.Allowing the necessary time to adapt to change and transition is vital in order to be intentional and patient in dealing with life's challenges.Embracing the reality that transition takes time, and staying committed to the process can lead to a place of comfort and contentment in the new circumstances.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Michael Rhodes is lecturer in Old Testament at Carey Baptist College and the author of Just Discipleship:  Biblical Justice in an Unjust World.From the biblical concept of justice and the role of worship in shaping our approach to justice, to the practicalities of addressing poverty and racial justice, Michael Rhodes takes us into the heart of what it means to live out just discipleship.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Michael Rhodes emphasizes the importance of incorporating themes of justice into worship and liturgy.Worship should create a demand among worshipers to get involved in God's mission of justice and bring the pain of the world into the center.The feasts in Deuteronomy are invitations to the good life and wise living, and they also address contemporary justice issues.Michael Rhodes highlights the concept of the "feast" and the importance of interacting with people not like oneself.Michael Rhodes suggests practical advice for overcoming obstacles, such as increasing proximity to those facing injustice and allowing scripture to unsettle and challenge unjust practices.Worship and prayer, such as the Psalms, play an important role in shaping perspectives on justice and discipleship.Michael Rhodes emphasizes the concept of tithing in Deuteronomy, where people are encouraged to use their tithe to have a feast before the Lord.The justice feast forms the community and the hearts of the individuals who participate, as it teaches them to fear the Lord and relate to God.Worship should create a demand among worshipers to get involved in God's mission of justice.Michael Rhodes points out the increasing lack of interaction between different economic classes in American society and suggests that proximity to those who are suffering is crucial.the justice feast in Deuteronomy highlights the concept of justice as the faithful exercise of power and just structures, including regular contributions for the poor and debt forgiveness laws.Michael Rhodes proposes practical advice for overcoming obstacles, such as increasing proximity to those facing injustice and allowing scripture to unsettle and challenge unjust practices.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Michael Rhodes:Twitter - @michaeljrhodesCarey Baptist CollegeBooks mentioned:Just Discipleship, by Michael RhodesPracticing the King’s Economy, by Michael Rhodes and Robby HoltRelated episodes:Ep. 29: Serving the Poor and the ImmigrantEp. 42: Speaking Out Against InjusticeEp. 143: How the Church Can Respond to ImmigrationEp. 167: Called to Each OtherDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the challenge of being fully authentic as a ministry leader. The conversation centers around a quote from Sara Bereza, highlighting the difficulty people in professional ministry face when trying to be their true selves. Through an exploration of the biblical story of Moses, Paul's writings in 2nd Corinthians, and personal anecdotes, Markus and Tod discuss the weight of wearing a facade and the importance of cultivating vulnerability, authenticity, and resilience in the ministry space. They emphasize the need for secure relationships and intentional efforts to be one's genuine self amidst the pressures and expectations of the ministry environment.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Sarah Bereza in Episode 141: Being Fully Yourself in Leadership:“It can be really hard for people in the professional ministry space to be fully themselves.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:In professional ministry, being fully oneself can be challenging.Moses, a leader from the Bible, struggled with authenticity and wore a veil to hide his radiance.Trying to emulate other influential figures in ministry can be exhausting.Finding freedom and wholeness in leadership comes from embracing one's true self.Building secure relationships with partners, mentors, and friends is crucial for vulnerable leadership.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Scott Thumma is Professor of Sociology of Religion at Hartford International University and Director of the Hartford Institute for Religion Research.  Scott is also Principal Investigator of a study titled Exploring the Pandemic Impact on Congregations.In this episode, Scott Thumma shares insights from that study, including the tension between clergy and congregations, the rise of hybrid worship, and the ongoing struggle to adapt to a changing world.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Scott Thumma emphasizes the resistance to change that clergy might within their congregations, attributing it to "suffering from whiplash."Congregations need to evolve and adapt in order to avoid obsolescence.Thumma noted the profound effect of the pandemic on congregational life during his sabbatical at the start of the pandemic, which resulted in a grant for a 5-year study.The Exploring the Pandemic Impact on Congregations study revealed both positive and troubling aspects of the pandemic's impact on congregational dynamics.Earlier in 2021, congregational life was at a low point, but there was a sense of community and rallying together to address the challenges.Many congregations have shifted back to in-person programs and meetings, finding in-person interactions to be richer and more robust.Scott Thumma points out that some functions, such as adult education and committee meetings, can function significantly better virtually.Scott Thumma emphasizes the importance of making congregations reflect the customizable and virtual nature of the modern era, and discusses how hybridity can expand the number of people serviced in a congregation and meet the expectations of visitors and new members.Scott Thumma acknowledges the collective trauma experienced during the pandemic, noting changes in behavior and a sense that "none of us are the same."Trends show that congregation sizes and average ages of attendees and pastors have continued to change, but the pandemic didn't radically impact the overall trajectory of the church.Scott Thumma is concerned about a decreasing willingness to change among congregations since the pandemic, leading to reluctance for continued adaptation and change.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Exploring the Pandemic Impact on Congregations REPORTExploring the Pandemic Impact on Congreagions WEBSITEExploring the Pandemic Impact on Congregations WEBINAR SERIESHartford Institute for Religion ResearchFaith Communities TodayRelated episodes:Ep. 153: Leadership in a Time of Declining Church Attendance, with Thom RainerDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson unpack a quote by Andy Crouch emphasizes the importance of finding the right meaningful risk in unlocking flourishing for both oneself and those entrusted to their care. Tod and Markus discuss the concept of meaningful risk as distinct from mere risk-taking, emphasizing the role of discernment in pursuing risks that are truly worth taking. They delve into the idea that meaningful vulnerability, willingly embraced for the sake of others' flourishing, is an essential aspect of leadership. Drawing on theological insights, they reflect on the example of God's meaningful risk in incarnating into the world, offering valuable perspectives on how to navigate fear and resistance to vulnerability in leadership.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Andy Crouch in Episode 113: Flourishing Leadership:“Finding the right meaningful risk will unlock flourishing for you and the people you’re entrusted with.” THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Finding the right meaningful risk unlocks flourishing for individuals and the people they're entrusted with.Leadership involves discerning what risks are meaningful and worth taking.Meaningful vulnerability is willingly allowing oneself to be vulnerable for the greater good and flourishing of others.Taking meaningful risks and embracing vulnerability reflects the wisdom and love of God.Resistance to vulnerability is common, but embracing meaningful risks can lead to unlocking new possibilities and flourishing in organizations and communities.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Todd Hunter leads Churches for the Sake of Others, a diocese of the Anglican Church in North America, and is the author of What Jesus Intended: Finding True Faith in the Rubble of Bad Religion.In this episode, Todd Hunter and I discuss “bad religion,” “good religion,” and what it means to be the church God has called us to be. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Todd discusses "bad religion," referring to church actions that harm people, including sexual and financial scandals and misuse of power.He shares personal experiences of witnessing bullying and manipulation within charismatic and Pentecostal circles.The conversation explores the historical existence of bad religion and the pursuit of healthy and faithful religion.Todd Hunter emphasizes the importance of listening without compromise and using Jesus as an example of engaging with others while staying true to beliefs.Churches need to listen, especially to victims, without giving up on fundamental beliefs, to reshape churches towards goodness.Markus Watson contrasts Jesus' engagement with marginalized individuals with the church's perceived engagement.Todd discusses the need for the church to engage with unique Christian claims while avoiding a privileged and know-it-all attitude.He emphasizes the theological meaning of "end" and God's healing the world through his people.Todd believes that God's people will rule and reign with him in a renewed heaven and earth.He shares insights from Dallas Willard about engaging in conversations with others.Christ followers need to have honest conversations with others while remaining grounded in their own beliefs.Todd Hunter discusses the negative impact of fear and anxiety and emphasizes the eschatological nature of faith for pastors living in a post-Christendom world.It is important to understand the broader intentions of Jesus beyond just dying for salvation.Todd Hunter expresses a desire to reintroduce Jesus to people who are disengaged from traditional church practices.Churches need to meet people where they are, tailoring church practices to different communities.The conversation acknowledges the value of traditional church forms while emphasizing openness to various expressions of faith beyond traditions like house churches.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Todd Hunter:www.toddhunter.orgwww.c4so.orgCenter for Justice and Peace Books mentioned:What Jesus Intended, by Todd HunterJesus and the Victory of God, by N.T. WrightA Church Called Tov, by Scot McKnight and Laura BarringerPray as You GodFresh ExpressionsRelated episodes:Episode 126: A Crisis of Adult Discipleship, with Brian WallaceEpisode 92: Against a Culture of Abuse, with Scot McKnight anDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

In this quick conversation Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore a thought-provoking quote from Alexia Salvatierra, a professor at Centro Latino at Fuller Theological Seminary. The quote, "If you don't listen, you can't see what God is doing," sparks a deep discussion on the importance of listening and discerning God's work in the world. Tod shares insights on the implications of this quote for leadership, the significance of listening to others, and the challenges of opening ourselves up to different perspectives.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Alexia Salvatierra in Episode 101: Gratitude, Grief, and Guilt--the Church After Covid:"If you don't listen, you can't see what God is doing."THIS EPISODE"S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE"Listening is crucial for discerning and seeing what God is doing.Rather than being vision casters, leaders should focus on hearing the voice of God and sensing His direction.Listening to others, including neighbors and different perspectives, helps in recognizing God's work, especially in our blind spots.It's important to force ourselves to open up to other voices and perspectives to better hear and see what God is doing.To better discern God's leading, it's essential to stop and listen, particularly to those who have been ignored.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Jeff Crosby is President and CEO of ECPA, the trade association of Christian pulishers, and the author of The Language of the Soul: Meeting God in the Longings of Our Hearts.In this episode, I’m speaking with Jeff Crosby about our longings.  We discuss a Portuguese word—saudade—which, according to Jeff, is an untranslatable word that refers to a kind of deep, inner longing that every human feels.As leaders, it’s so important to recognize our longings.  And it’s even more important to meet God in the midst of our longings.THIS EPISODES HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jeff Crosby is President and CEO of ECPA, the trade association of Christian pulishers, and the author of The Language of the Soul: Meeting God in the Longings of Our Hearts.Jeff Crosby discusses the concept of saudade as a deep inner longing and its resonance with spiritual longing and leadership.The episode delves into how individuals can recognize signals of disintegration in their lives and the need to center themselves, seeking support from spiritual friends, counselors, or spiritual directors.Jeff Crosby and Markus Watson discuss the different dimensions of saudade, involving personal relationships, meaningful work, and a sense of belonging, peace, and safety.The structure of the book, focusing on internal, external, and eternal longings, is highlighted, emphasizing the universal nature of yearning in leadership and personal development.Jeff discusses the value of saudade and the inner journey of affirming it and finding God's presence, especially in times of loss and change.In the context of a changing world and ministry, Jeff Crosby address the impact of loss and the way it affects individuals and their leadership roles.Jeff Crosby's book, The Language of the Soul, should be read  slowly,  allowing it to have a deep impact on the soul.Jeff and Markus discuss the potential negative effects of pushing down desires in leadership.Jeff Crosby’s book is meant to tap into readers' own saudade and prompt reflection on their desires, inspired by the notion that spirituality revolves around handling the pain and hope brought by yearning.Jeff Crosby and Markus Watson emphasize the crucial role of of an undivided life in leadership.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jeff Crosby:Evangelical Christian Publishers AssociationBooks mentioned:The Language of the Soul, by Jeff CrosbyHinge Moments, by D. Michael LindsayRelated Episodes:Episode 96: Crossing Leadership Thresholds, with Jeff CrosbyEpisode 142: Navigating the 7 Stages of Transition, with D. Michael LindsayDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the role of anger in leadership. They emphasize the importance of acknowledging and addressing anger in a healthy way, shifting the focus from retaliation to addressing the systems that need to be changed. They highlight the significance of understanding and navigating the anger of others, especially in the context of leading change in churches and organizations. Through their conversation, they underscore the value of naming anger as a legitimate feeling and taking responsibility for creating healthier systems that promote flourishing and minimize harm.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Chuck Whitley in Episode 81: Anger and Spiritual Leadership:“We need to shift our anger from responding with retaliation to addressing systems that need to be changed.” THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Tod Bolsinger emphasizes the discomfort often associated with acknowledging anger in a ministry or leadership context.The conversation delves into the relationship between fear, hurt, and the unconscious tendency to retaliate when triggered by anger.Reflecting on the civil rights movement, the episode illustrates the power of addressing broken systems in a transformative manner without resorting to retaliation.The discussion highlights regional variations in passive-aggressive behavior, emphasizing the importance of owning and addressing the impact of every action within a ministry setting.Tod Bolsinger provides practical insights on navigating and addressing the anger of others within a ministry context, emphasizing the value of addressing the deeper emotions behind the anger.The episode emphasizes the legitimacy of healthy anger in leadership and the acknowledgment that change within ministries can elicit fear and anger, often expressed as anger.Listeners gain valuable insights into understanding and responding to anger within ministry, acknowledging that change and faithful leadership can provoke anger, and providing guidance on managing this during significant transitions.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!