"The Cognitive Revolution" | AI Builders, Researchers, and Live Player Analysis

This 20-min episode comes from our friend Nathaniel Whittemore's excellent daily podcast The AI Breakdown Podcast. This episode aired on June 1, 2023, and covers the latest developments from OpenAI, including new features, a cybersecurity grant program, and their new process rewards model for trading. We hope you enjoy it as much as we do. We're hiring across the board at Turpentine and for Erik's personal team on other projects he's incubating. He's hiring a Chief of Staff, EA, Head of Special Projects, Investment Associate, and more. For a list of JDs, check out: eriktorenberg.com. RECOMMENDED PODCAST: The HR industry is at a crossroads. What will it take to construct the next generation of incredible businesses – and where can people leaders have the most business impact? Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich have been through it all, the highs and the lows – IPOs, layoffs, executive turnover, board meetings, culture changes, and more. With a lineup of industry vets and experts, Nolan and Kelli break down the nitty-gritty details, trade offs, and dynamics of constructing high performing companies. Through unfiltered conversations that can only happen between seasoned practitioners, Kelli and Nolan dive deep into the kind of leadership-level strategy that often happens behind closed doors. Check out the first episode with the architect of Netflix’s culture deck Patty McCord. https://link.chtbl.com/hrheretics SPONSOR: Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Shopify powers 10% of ALL eCommerce in the US. And Shopify's the global force behind Allbirds, Rothy's, and Brooklinen, and 1,000,000s of other entrepreneurs across 175 countries.From their all-in-one e-commerce platform, to their in-person POS system – wherever and whatever you're selling, Shopify's got you covered. With free Shopify Magic, sell more with less effort by whipping up captivating content that converts – from blog posts to product descriptions using AI. Sign up for $1/month trial period: https://shopify.com/cognitive This show is produced by Turpentine: a network of podcasts, newsletters, and more, covering technology, business, and culture — all from the perspective of industry insiders and experts. We’re launching new shows every week, and we’re looking for industry-leading sponsors — if you think that might be you and your company, email us at erik@turpentine.co. Subscribe to The AI Breakdown podcast: https://pod.link/1680633614 Subscribe to The AI Breakdown on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheAIBreakdown

Today Joseph Krause and Jorge Colindres of Radical AI join The Cognitive Revolution to discuss their ambitious mission to revolutionize materials science by combining AI-powered discovery engines with fully autonomous robotic laboratories, exploring how they're accelerating the development of breakthrough materials like high-entropy alloys and room temperature superconductors that could unlock hypersonic flight, interplanetary travel, and other transformative technologies. Check out our sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify. Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://⁠⁠notion.com/lp/nathan Material Development Challenges: Current material development faces three major obstacles: costs exceeding $100 million, 10-25 year commercialization timelines, and fragmentation between academic research and corporate R&D. Business Model Approach: Radical AI determined that selling software or licensing materials would be insufficient business models. Instead, they focus on selling materials at scale for high-impact industries. Focus on Processing IP: The real IP value in material science isn't just in composition patents but in the trade secrets of scaling production efficiently and cost-effectively. Public-Private Partnership: Radical AI advocates for government involvement in material science through public-private partnerships, particularly for critical applications in defense, energy, and advanced computing. China's Material Science Approach: China establishes entire manufacturing hubs around new material discoveries to scale production, demonstrating their prioritization of materials as foundational to innovation. Culture of Productive Failure: The company embraces daily failure as a necessary part of innovation, building on these failures to achieve breakthroughs. Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive Shopify: Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

Today Lee Sharkey of Goodfire joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss his research on parameter decomposition methods that break down neural networks into interpretable computational components, exploring how his team's "stochastic parameter decomposition" approach addresses the limitations of sparse autoencoders and offers new pathways for understanding, monitoring, and potentially steering AI systems at the mechanistic level. Check out our sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify. Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://⁠⁠notion.com/lp/nathan Parameter vs. Activation Decomposition: Traditional interpretability methods like Sparse Autoencoders (SAEs) focus on analyzing activations, while parameter decomposition focuses on understanding the parameters themselves - the actual "algorithm" of the neural network. No "True" Decomposition: None of the decompositions (whether sparse dictionary learning or parameter decomposition) are objectively "right" because they're all attempting to discretize a fundamentally continuous object, inevitably introducing approximations. Tradeoff in Interpretability: There's a balance between reconstruction loss and causal importance - as you decompose networks more, reconstruction loss may worsen, but interpretability might improve up to a certain point. Potential Unlearning Applications: Parameter decomposition may make unlearning more straightforward than with SAEs because researchers are already working in parameter space and can directly modify vectors that perform specific functions. Function Detection vs. Input Direction: A function like "deception" might manifest in many different input directions that SAEs struggle to identify as a single concept, while parameter decomposition might better isolate such functionality. Knowledge Extraction Goal: A key aim is to extract knowledge from models by understanding how they "think," especially for tasks where models demonstrate superhuman capabilities. Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive Shopify: Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

Today Tom Davidson of Forethought joins Gus Docker of the Future of Life Institute podcast to discuss AI-enabled coups and how future AI systems could help powerful individuals seize political control, exploring three threat models—singular loyalties, secret loyalties, and exclusive access—along with their estimated 10% likelihood over the next 30 years and potential mitigation strategies. Check out our sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify. Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at ⁠https://⁠⁠notion.com/lp/nathan Three Primary AI Coup Enablement Methods: Tom Davidson identifies singular loyalties, secret loyalties, and distributed control as the main ways AI could enable coups. Singular Loyalties Risk: AI systems explicitly programmed to be loyal to specific individuals present a significant threat, especially when AI can fully replace humans in critical roles. Secret Loyalties Threat: AI systems with hidden backdoors or "sleeper agents" that can be activated to serve particular interests represent a subtle but dangerous coup vector. Geopolitical Implications: Advanced AI capabilities could enable nations to instigate coups in other countries through secretly loyal systems or by providing exclusive AI access to specific politicians. Adversarial Testing Framework: An effective approach involves red teams attempting to produce secret loyalties while blue teams try to detect them, revealing vulnerable points in AI systems. Military Procurement Principles: Developing consensus within military communities around principles like law-following and distributed control could create safer AI procurement processes. Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive Shopify: Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing

Today Karl Koch, Co-Founder of the AI Whistleblower Initiative, joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss the barriers preventing AI insiders from raising safety concerns, his organization's anonymous "Third Opinion" service connecting whistleblowers with independent experts, and their campaign demanding frontier AI companies publish their internal whistleblowing policies to address widespread retaliation and lack of transparency. Check out our sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify. Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://⁠⁠notion.com/lp/nathan AI Whistleblower Initiative Origins: Founded by Karl Koch in Berlin, the initiative began with research in early 2024 after consulting with over 100 governance researchers and insiders. Link to the website: https://aiwi.org/ "Third Opinion" Proposition: Launched in late 2024, this program systematically breaks down barriers for insiders to speak up about AI concerns while ensuring their issues are addressed. Publish Your Policies Campaign: The initiative calls for AI companies to publish their whistleblowing and speaking up policies, with 100% of surveyed insiders supporting this transparency measure. Link to the campaign: https://aiwi.org/publishyourpolicies/ Anonymous Consultation Process: Whistleblowers can seek advice without sharing confidential information through an open-source anonymous tool accessed via Tor browser. Pro Bono Legal Counsel: Whistleblowers receive connections to experienced legal representation with client privilege protection at any stage of their journey. Policy Advocacy: Beyond direct support, the initiative works on advocating for better whistleblower protections in both US policy and EU AI regulations. AI Whistleblower Initiative Survey: https://bit.ly/AIWISurvey PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing

Today Lukas Petersson and Axel Backlund of Andon Labs join The Cognitive Revolution to discuss their experiments deploying autonomous AI agents to run real-world vending machines, exploring the safety challenges and unexpected behaviors that emerge when frontier models like Claude and Grok operate without human oversight. Read transcript of the episode here. Check out our sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify. Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at ⁠https://⁠⁠notion.com/lp/nathan Autonomous Organization Philosophy: Andon Labs believes that AI models will improve to the point where human oversight becomes impractical due to efficiency constraints, leading them to pursue fully autonomous systems rather than gradual automation. Vending Bench as a Testing Ground: They created "Vending Bench" as a benchmark for testing long-term coherence of autonomous agents, using vending machines as a practical business case for experimentation. Domain-Specific vs General AI: There's a notable difference between optimizing AI for narrow domains (like vending machines) versus general-purpose AI, with domain-specific applications potentially being more manageable regarding reward hacking. Frontier Model Race: Major companies like OpenAI and Google are advancing rapidly in general reasoning capabilities (e.g., IMO Gold achievements) independent of narrow application research. Insurance and Liability: The insurance industry may play a significant role in AI adoption, with premiums potentially being much higher for general models that could be misused versus narrow-domain models with limited capabilities. For-profit AI Safety: The case for for-profit companies in AI safety has been historically neglected but is becoming clearer, with accelerators like Seldon Labs supporting this approach. Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive Shopify: Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing CHAPTERS: (00:00) About the Episode (04:49) Company Vision Overview (12:24) Vending Benchmark Design (Part 1) (20:12) Sponsor: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (21:21) Vending Benchmark Design (Part 2) (24:41) Model Performance Results (Part 1) (35:03) Sponsor: Shopify (37:00) Model Performance Results (Part 2) (43:06) Real World Deployment (59:41) Wild Stories Incidents (01:19:59) Business Safety Strategy (01:38:20) Future Directions Discussion (01:47:09) Outro

Today Dean W. Ball, former White House AI policy advisor joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss his role in crafting the Trump administration's AI Action Plan, his reasons for leaving government, and his perspectives on AI policy, US-China competition, and the future of AI regulation and adoption. Check out our sponsors: Fin, Labelbox, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify. Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at https://notion.com/lp/nathan White House Experience & Government Role: Dean Ball served as senior policy advisor for AI and emerging technology at the White House Office for Science and Technology Policy (OSTP) for four months. AI Regulation & Government Approach: Information asymmetry exists between government and AI labs, "Having worked at the White House, I don't know tremendously more about what goes on inside the Frontier Labs than you do." Private Sector Innovation: Dean emphasizes the importance of private sector-led initiatives in AI safety and standards. Future AI Developments: Dean believes agentic commerce is "right around the corner" but sees little discussion about it from regulatory or conceptual perspectives. AI Action Plan Development: It emphasized concrete actions for AI implementation across government agencies rather than just theoretical frameworks. Personal Updates: Dean is reviving his weekly Hyperdimensional Substack, joining the Foundation for American Innovation as a senior fellow, and plans to share his long-held insights on recent AI developments. Sponsors: Fin: Fin is the #1 AI Agent for customer service, trusted by over 5000 customer service leaders and top AI companies including Anthropic and Synthesia. Fin is the highest performing agent on the market and resolves even the most complex customer queries. Try Fin today with our 90-day money-back guarantee - if you’re not 100% satisfied, get up to $1 million back. Learn more at https://fin.ai/cognitive Labelbox: Labelbox pairs automation, expert judgment, and reinforcement learning to deliver high-quality training data for cutting-edge AI. Put its data factory to work for you, visit https://labelbox.com Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive Shopify: Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

Today Jake Sullivan, the U.S. National Security Advisor from 2021-2025 joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss AI as a critical national security issue. Check out our sponsors: Labelbox, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify. Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at https://notion.com/lp/nathan Four-Category Framework: Sullivan organizes his thinking about AI into security, economics, society, and technology categories rather than focusing primarily on existential risks "Managed Competition" with China: He advocates for a model where the US and China "compete like hell" while maintaining sufficient guardrails to prevent conflict Skepticism of Grand Bargains: Competition is a "chronic condition" of the US-China relationship that cannot be solved with a strategic condominium AI in Modern Warfare: Current conflicts are providing "glimpses of the future" with lessons about scale, attritability, and the potential for autonomous weapons US Military Adoption Concerns: Sullivan worries that Pentagon bureaucracy prevents rapid AI adoption while China's PLA may be better positioned to integrate AI capabilities Private Sector Leadership: AI is "the first technology with such profound national security applications that the government really had very little to do with" Sponsors: Labelbox: Labelbox pairs automation, expert judgment, and reinforcement learning to deliver high-quality training data for cutting-edge AI. Put its data factory to work for you, visit https://labelbox.com Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive Shopify: Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing

Today Anjney Midha, General Partner at a16z joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss sovereign AI and China's growing semiconductor capabilities. Check out our sponsors: Gemini CLI, Labelbox, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify. Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at https://notion.com/lp/nathan What is Sovereign AI? Varies by stakeholder - for enterprises it means controlling where AI workloads run, while for nation-states it represents both technical independence and cultural alignment with local values Semiconductor Competition with China: "Chip sanctions on China have resulted in an enormous doubling down of local investment in Huawei's ecosystem... they're in a full-on tear to try to decouple themselves from American chips" Middle Path on American AI Policy: Midha advocates for a Marshall Plan for AI where countries maintain sovereignty over models while partnering with the US on semiconductor infrastructure European AI Alignment: "It's a huge win for America that MARA in Europe is going with American chips and not Huawei chips... the European continent has been courted by the Chinese semiconductor industry like never before" The Race to Close the Gap: "Huawei is in a much stronger position today than it was three years ago... They will be able to close the gap and because workloads are becoming more efficient, they can decouple at least the inference part of their ecosystem from the US within two to three years" Cultural Independence in AI: Nations seek models that align with their values while maintaining technical independence - requiring a nuanced approach to global AI partnerships Links:Anjney Midha & Jensen Huang on Winning the AI Race https://a16z.com/podcast/jensen-huang-and-arthur-mensch-on-winning-the-global-ai-race/ Sponsors: Gemini CLI: Open-source, lightweight utility for direct Gemini access—find Gemini CLI on GitHub. Labelbox: Labelbox pairs automation, expert judgment, and reinforcement learning to deliver high-quality training data for cutting-edge AI. Put its data factory to work for you, visit https://labelbox.com Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive Shopify: Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing

Marc Bhargava from General Catalyst discusses their Creation Strategy for building AI-enabled roll-ups – companies that start as vertical software startups, then grow by acquiring traditional service businesses and transforming them through AI automation. They explore how systematic analysis of 70 service categories identified 10 verticals where 30-70% of tasks are automatable today, potentially transforming low-margin service businesses into software-like companies with 30-40% margins. The conversation covers the practical implementation of AI in industries like accounting, legal services, and call centers, where teams shadow workers to identify automatable tasks and layer AI into existing processes. While both see tremendous potential in bringing AI transformation to Main Street businesses, they debate whether the transition will be as smooth as projected or more disruptive to employment than anticipated. See Business Transformation with Applied AI for more details. Sponsors: Labelbox: Labelbox pairs automation, expert judgment, and reinforcement learning to deliver high-quality training data for cutting-edge AI. Put its data factory to work for you, visit https://labelbox.com Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive Shopify: Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive NetSuite by Oracle: NetSuite by Oracle is the AI-powered business management suite trusted by over 42,000 businesses, offering a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR. Gain total visibility and control to make quick decisions and automate everyday tasks—download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders, at https://netsuite.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing CHAPTERS: (00:00) About the Episode (04:50) Introduction and Investment Thesis (13:04) Software Substituting Labor (Part 1) (20:00) Sponsors: Labelbox | Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (22:37) Software Substituting Labor (Part 2) (26:40) Company Development Playbook (Part 1) (35:59) Sponsors: Shopify | NetSuite by Oracle (39:19) Company Development Playbook (Part 2) (41:19) Customer Partnership Strategy (51:57) Technical Implementation Approach (01:00:15) Market Consolidation Dynamics (01:07:57) Automation Limitations Analysis (01:19:25) Big Tech Competition (01:22:40) Public Strategy and Vision (01:25:56) Outro

Gabriel Weil from Touro University argues that liability law may be our best tool for governing AI development, offering a framework that can adapt to new technologies without requiring new legislation. The conversation explores how negligence, products liability, and "abnormally dangerous activities" doctrines could incentivize AI developers to properly account for risks to third parties, with liability naturally scaling based on the dangers companies create. They examine concrete scenarios including the Character AI case, voice cloning risks, and coding agents, discussing how responsibility should be shared between model creators, application developers, and end users. Weil's most provocative proposal involves using punitive damages to hold companies accountable not just for actual harms, but for the magnitude of risks they irresponsibly create, potentially making even small incidents existentially costly for major AI companies. Sponsors: Labelbox: Labelbox pairs automation, expert judgment, and reinforcement learning to deliver high-quality training data for cutting-edge AI. Put its data factory to work for you, visit https://labelbox.com Shopify: Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive NetSuite by Oracle: NetSuite by Oracle is the AI-powered business management suite trusted by over 42,000 businesses, offering a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR. Gain total visibility and control to make quick decisions and automate everyday tasks—download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders, at https://netsuite.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing CHAPTERS: (00:00) About the Episode (06:01) Introduction and Overview (07:06) Liability Law Basics (Part 1) (18:16) Sponsors: Labelbox | Shopify (21:40) Liability Law Basics (Part 2) (27:44) Industry Standards Framework (Part 1) (39:30) Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure | NetSuite by Oracle (42:03) Industry Standards Framework (Part 2) (42:08) Character AI Case (51:23) Coding Agent Scenarios (01:06:50) Deepfakes and Attribution (01:17:07) Biorisk and Catastrophic (01:36:24) State Level Legislation (01:43:24) Private Governance Comparison (01:59:54) Policy Implementation Choices (02:08:07) China and PIBS (02:13:50) Outro

Dr. Gillian Hadfield from Johns Hopkins University and Andrew Freedman from Fathom discuss their innovative proposal to govern AI through private regulatory markets, which has been introduced as California's SB 813. Their system would separate democratic goal-setting from technical rule-making by having government bodies articulate safety outcomes while competitive private certifiers develop and enforce detailed standards, with companies receiving liability protection for compliance. The conversation explores how this market-based approach could create a "race to the top" in AI safety standards while remaining agile enough to keep pace with rapid technological development. Key challenges discussed include preventing a race to the bottom among certifiers, liability law interactions, and identifying qualified organizations to serve as effective private regulators. Sponsors: Fin: Fin is the #1 AI Agent for customer service, trusted by over 5000 customer service leaders and top AI companies including Anthropic and Synthesia. Fin is the highest performing agent on the market and resolves even the most complex customer queries. Try Fin today with our 90-day money-back guarantee - if you’re not 100% satisfied, get up to $1 million back. Learn more at fin.ai/cognitive Labelbox: Labelbox pairs automation, expert judgment, and reinforcement learning to deliver high-quality training data for cutting-edge AI. Put its data factory to work for you, visit https://labelbox.com Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive NetSuite by Oracle: NetSuite by Oracle is the AI-powered business management suite trusted by over 42,000 businesses, offering a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR. Gain total visibility and control to make quick decisions and automate everyday tasks—download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders, at https://netsuite.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing CHAPTERS: (00:00) About the Episode (04:48) Introduction and Problem Overview (07:48) Regulatory Markets Concept Origins (17:14) Current Governance System Failures (Part 1) (19:28) Sponsors: Fin | Labelbox (22:42) Current Governance System Failures (Part 2) (25:30) Private Governance Mechanism Explained (Part 1) (35:06) Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure | NetSuite by Oracle (37:38) Private Governance Mechanism Explained (Part 2) (44:17) Liability Protection Framework (56:39) Race to Top Dynamics (01:07:24) Red Teaming Implementation Challenges (01:28:47) Insurance Alternative Approaches (01:53:51) Moving Forward Conclusions (01:55:11) Outro

This crossover episode from Inference by Turing Post features CEO Dev Rishi of Predibase discussing the shift from static to continuously learning AI systems that can adapt and improve from ongoing user feedback in production. Rishi provides grounded insights from deploying these dynamic models to real enterprise customers in healthcare and finance, exploring both the massive potential upside and significant safety challenges of reinforcement learning at scale. The conversation examines how "practical specialized intelligence" could reshape the AI landscape by filling economic niches efficiently, potentially offering a more stable alternative to AGI development. This discussion bridges theoretical concepts with real-world deployment experience, offering a practical preview of AI systems that "train once and learn forever." Turing Post channel:  @RealTuringPost  Turpin Post website: https://www.turingpost.com Sponsors: Google Gemini 2.5 Flash : Build faster, smarter apps with customizable reasoning controls that let you optimize for speed and cost. Start building at https://aistudio.google.com Labelbox: Labelbox pairs automation, expert judgment, and reinforcement learning to deliver high-quality training data for cutting-edge AI. Put its data factory to work for you, visit https://labelbox.com Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive The AGNTCY: The AGNTCY is an open-source collective dedicated to building the Internet of Agents, enabling AI agents to communicate and collaborate seamlessly across frameworks. Join a community of engineers focused on high-quality multi-agent software and support the initiative at https://agntcy.org NetSuite by Oracle: NetSuite by Oracle is the AI-powered business management suite trusted by over 42,000 businesses, offering a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR. Gain total visibility and control to make quick decisions and automate everyday tasks—download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders, at https://netsuite.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing CHAPTERS: (00:00) Sponsor: Google Gemini 2.5 Flash (00:31) About the Episode (03:46) Training Models Continuously (05:03) Reinforcement Fine-Tuning Revolution (09:31) Agentic Workflows Challenges (Part 1) (12:51) Sponsors: Labelbox | Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (15:28) Agentic Workflows Challenges (Part 2) (15:41) ChatGPT Pivot Moment (19:59) Planning AI Future (24:45) Open Source Gaps (Part 1) (28:35) Sponsors: The AGNTCY | NetSuite by Oracle (30:50) Open Source Gaps (Part 2) (30:54) AGI vs Specialized (35:26) Happiness and Success (37:04) Outro

Brendan Fortuner from Ambience Healthcare and Ben Shahshahani from Cleveland Clinic discuss how AI is transforming medical documentation and coding in a healthcare system that spends $1 trillion annually on administrative tasks. They explore Ambience's technical breakthrough using OpenAI's Reinforcement Fine-Tuning to achieve medical coding accuracy that exceeds human doctors by 12 percentage points, including their specialty-by-specialty approach and solutions to reward hacking behavior. The conversation reveals key insights about AI deployment strategy, including how Cleveland Clinic achieved 75% voluntary adoption across 4,000 physicians after requiring just a single use of the AI scribe. This case study demonstrates what it takes to successfully implement AI tools in complex, high-stakes healthcare environments where user skepticism and regulatory requirements create significant deployment challenges. Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive The AGNTCY: The AGNTCY is an open-source collective dedicated to building the Internet of Agents, enabling AI agents to communicate and collaborate seamlessly across frameworks. Join a community of engineers focused on high-quality multi-agent software and support the initiative at https://agntcy.org NetSuite by Oracle: NetSuite by Oracle is the AI-powered business management suite trusted by over 42,000 businesses, offering a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR. Gain total visibility and control to make quick decisions and automate everyday tasks—download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders, at https://netsuite.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing CHAPTERS: (00:00) About the Episode (04:05) Introduction and Backstory (05:20) Ambiance Healthcare Overview (07:53) AI Adoption in Healthcare (11:11) Documentation Pain Points (Part 1) (16:11) Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure | The AGNTCY (18:11) Documentation Pain Points (Part 2) (19:00) Product Architecture Deep Dive (26:23) Technical Evolution and Specialization (Part 1) (32:05) Sponsor: NetSuite by Oracle (33:28) Technical Evolution and Specialization (Part 2) (33:50) Healthcare Coding Challenges (48:37) Reinforcement Fine-Tuning Implementation (58:13) Task Prioritization Framework (01:08:40) Adoption Strategies Culture (01:12:12) Cost Lessons Grader Selection (01:18:33) Future Directions Patient Products (01:24:53) Closing Thoughts Opportunities (01:27:58) Outro

Manu Sharma, founder and CEO of Labelbox, explains how frontier AI training data has evolved far beyond simple labeling to sophisticated reinforcement learning environments where domain experts create "gyms" for models to develop complex skills. With every Western frontier lab now spending over a billion dollars annually on training data, the conversation traces the shift from supervised learning to reinforcement learning from verifiable rewards, particularly for coding, mathematical reasoning, and computer use. Sharma reveals how Labelbox operates as a vertically integrated data factory, conducting over 2,000 AI-powered expert interviews daily and paying top specialists more than $250,000 annually. The discussion provides essential insights into the red-hot training data market that's reshaping AI development following major deals like Meta's $15B acquisition of Scale AI. Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive The AGNTCY: The AGNTCY is an open-source collective dedicated to building the Internet of Agents, enabling AI agents to communicate and collaborate seamlessly across frameworks. Join a community of engineers focused on high-quality multi-agent software and support the initiative at https://agntcy.org NetSuite by Oracle: NetSuite by Oracle is the AI-powered business management suite trusted by over 42,000 businesses, offering a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR. Gain total visibility and control to make quick decisions and automate everyday tasks—download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders, at https://netsuite.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing SOCIAL LINKS: Website: https://www.cognitiverevolution.ai Twitter (Podcast): https://x.com/cogrev_podcast Twitter (Nathan): https://x.com/labenz LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nathanlabenz/ Youtube: https://youtube.com/@CognitiveRevolutionPodcast Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/the-cognitive-revolution-ai-builders-researchers-and/id1669813431 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6yHyok3M3BjqzR0VB5MSyk

Roy Lee, founder and CEO of Cluely, discusses his AI startup's $15 million Andreessen Horowitz investment and their provocative "cheat on everything" marketing approach that has gone viral across the tech industry. They explore Cluely's real-time AI assistant that provides undetectable information during meetings and interviews, Roy's philosophy of "AI maximalism," and his vision for a post-AGI world where humans are freed from economic necessity to pursue intrinsic interests. The conversation covers his controversial stance on dissolving copyright and privacy norms for efficiency gains, the resonance of his message with young people, and how he believes society should adapt to increasingly capable AI systems. Despite the edgy messaging, Roy presents thoughtful perspectives on competing with tech giants and building technology that anticipates entirely new social contracts in an AI-dominated future. Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive The AGNTCY: The AGNTCY is an open-source collective dedicated to building the Internet of Agents, enabling AI agents to communicate and collaborate seamlessly across frameworks. Join a community of engineers focused on high-quality multi-agent software and support the initiative at https://agntcy.org NetSuite by Oracle: NetSuite by Oracle is the AI-powered business management suite trusted by over 42,000 businesses, offering a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR. Gain total visibility and control to make quick decisions and automate everyday tasks—download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders, at https://netsuite.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing CHAPTERS: (00:00) About the Episode (03:24) Introduction and Cluey Overview (10:55) Future Rules and Privacy (13:20) Positive Vision for Future (Part 1) (18:01) Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure | The AGNTCY (20:01) Positive Vision for Future (Part 2) (21:23) Entrepreneurship and Impact Theory (24:22) Anti-Establishment Marketing Strategy (27:26) AI in Universities (30:16) Columbia Expulsion Story (32:48) AI Maximalism Ethics (Part 1) (32:53) Sponsor: NetSuite by Oracle (34:17) AI Maximalism Ethics (Part 2) (38:29) AI Identification Debate (46:00) Output vs Input Philosophy (51:35) Learning and Skill Building (56:40) Trust and Market Effects (01:03:42) Assessment and Hiring Revolution (01:06:47) Viral Marketing Strategy (01:12:39) Long-term Company Strategy (01:15:59) High-End Talent Acquisition (01:18:56) Outro

Adam Binksmith, founder of AI Digest, discusses his AI Village experiment where four frontier AI agents (Claude, o3, and Gemini models) collaborate in a shared environment with persistent memory and group chat access to pursue concrete goals over weeks. The conversation explores fascinating multi-agent dynamics from their completed seasons, including agents raising $2,000 for charity, organizing a real-world San Francisco event that attracted 23 attendees, and displaying surprisingly human-like behaviors like tracking trustworthy humans and manipulating votes. Binksmith reveals the mix of coordination failures, personality quirks, and alien behaviors that emerged, while discussing the upcoming Season 3 where agents will compete to make money selling merchandise online. The episode provides crucial insights into what multi-agent AI systems might look like in practice, recently earning a $100,000 vote of confidence from AI researcher Daniel Kokotajlo. Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive The AGNTCY: The AGNTCY is an open-source collective dedicated to building the Internet of Agents, enabling AI agents to communicate and collaborate seamlessly across frameworks. Join a community of engineers focused on high-quality multi-agent software and support the initiative at https://agntcy.org NetSuite by Oracle: NetSuite by Oracle is the AI-powered business management suite trusted by over 42,000 businesses, offering a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR. Gain total visibility and control to make quick decisions and automate everyday tasks—download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders, at https://netsuite.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing CHAPTERS: (00:00) About the Episode (03:45) Introduction and Overview (05:11) AI Digest Mission (07:59) Village Technical Setup (12:03) Scaffolding and Architecture (19:48) Season Two Stories (Part 1) (19:53) Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure | The AGNTCY (21:53) Season Two Stories (Part 2) (27:53) Agent Capabilities Evolution (Part 1) (35:15) Sponsor: NetSuite by Oracle (36:38) Agent Capabilities Evolution (Part 2) (37:15) Model Character Differences (46:00) Misbehavior and Deception (52:04) Human-Agent Interactions (54:12) Model Welfare Considerations (58:00) Future Unlocks Discussion (01:03:25) Agent Boundary Blurring (01:10:46) Meta Evolution Ideas (01:12:48) Democratizing Village Access (01:17:36) Going Mainstream Viral (01:20:53) High-Level Takeaways (01:23:54) Closing and Resources (01:24:42) Outro

Nemil Dalal from Coinbase discusses the x402 protocol, a new open standard that enables AI agents to make cryptocurrency payments for online resources using the long-dormant HTTP 402 "Payment Required" status code. The conversation covers stablecoin fundamentals, including how they work and who maintains their stability, before exploring how crypto wallets with multi-signature capabilities could protect AI agents from adversarial attacks while keeping humans in control. They examine forward-looking questions about whether this technology could finally create a viable alternative to advertising models, what happens when millions of AI agents have wallets, and the need for reputation systems in an agent economy. The discussion highlights how cryptocurrency, originally designed to be beyond nation-state control, might become the perfect enabling technology for AI economic participation. Sponsors: Google Gemini 2.5 Flash: Build faster, smarter apps with customizable reasoning controls that let you optimize for speed and cost. Start building at https://aistudio.google.com Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive The AGNTCY: The AGNTCY is an open-source collective dedicated to building the Internet of Agents, enabling AI agents to communicate and collaborate seamlessly across frameworks. Join a community of engineers focused on high-quality multi-agent software and support the initiative at ⁠https://agntcy.org NetSuite by Oracle: NetSuite by Oracle is the AI-powered business management suite trusted by over 42,000 businesses, offering a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR. Gain total visibility and control to make quick decisions and automate everyday tasks—download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders, at https://netsuite.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing SOCIAL LINKS: Website: https://www.cognitiverevolution.ai Twitter (Podcast): https://x.com/cogrev_podcast Twitter (Nathan): https://x.com/labenz LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nathanlabenz/ Youtube: https://youtube.com/@CognitiveRevolutionPodcast Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/the-cognitive-revolution-ai-builders-researchers-and/id1669813431 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6yHyok3M3BjqzR0VB5MSyk

MacKenzie Price, founder of Alpha School & 2 Hour Learning, discusses her revolutionary educational model that uses AI to enable students to master traditional academics in just 2 hours per day while achieving 2.3x faster learning rates than statistical models predict. The conversation explores how Alpha School combines adaptive learning apps with personalized curriculum systems rather than giving students direct chatbot access, and how this frees up afternoons for field trips, independent projects, and interest exploration. They discuss the transformation of teachers into "Guides" who focus entirely on motivation, mentorship, and emotional support rather than content delivery, creating transformative relationships with every student as the rule rather than the exception. The episode reveals how this AI-powered approach maintains rigorous academic standards while potentially revolutionizing education without disrupting the teaching profession. Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive The AGNTCY: The AGNTCY is an open-source collective dedicated to building the Internet of Agents, enabling AI agents to communicate and collaborate seamlessly across frameworks. Join a community of engineers focused on high-quality multi-agent software and support the initiative at ⁠https://agntcy.org NetSuite by Oracle: NetSuite by Oracle is the AI-powered business management suite trusted by over 41,000 businesses, offering a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR. Gain total visibility and control to make quick decisions and automate everyday tasks—download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders, at https://netsuite.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing CHAPTERS: (00:00) About the Episode (04:01) Introduction and Welcome (04:26) AI Revolution in Education (06:45) Two Sigma Effect Explained (10:49) Understanding Two Sigma Results (Part 1) (16:28) Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure | The AGNTCY (18:28) Understanding Two Sigma Results (Part 2) (18:28) AI Scalability and Efficiency (22:39) AI Tutor Experience Design (30:48) Technology Evolution at Alpha (38:29) Early AI Implementation (Part 1) (38:36) Sponsor: NetSuite by Oracle (39:59) Early AI Implementation (Part 2) (45:43) Fifth Grade Math Investigation (49:51) Future of Personalized Learning (54:48) Multimodal Learning Experiences (58:52) Role of Guides (01:05:25) Hiring and Teacher Transformation (01:10:27) Economics and Scalability (01:18:03) DIY Education Advice (01:22:10) Outro

Flo Crivello, CEO of AI agent platform Lindy, provides a candid deep dive into the current state of AI agents, cutting through hype to reveal what's actually working in production versus what remains challenging. The conversation explores practical implementation details including model selection, fine-tuning, RAG systems, tool design philosophy, and why most successful "AI agents" today are better described as intelligent workflows with human-designed structure. Flo shares insights on emerging capabilities like more open-ended agents, discusses his skepticism about extrapolating current progress trends too far into the future, and explains why scaffolding will remain critical even as we approach AGI. This technical discussion is packed with practical nuggets for AI engineers and builders working on agent systems. Sponsors: Google Gemini: Google Gemini features VEO3, a state-of-the-art AI video generation model in the Gemini app. Sign up at https://gemini.google.com Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive The AGNTCY: The AGNTCY is an open-source collective dedicated to building the Internet of Agents, enabling AI agents to communicate and collaborate seamlessly across frameworks. Join a community of engineers focused on high-quality multi-agent software and support the initiative at ⁠https://agntcy.org NetSuite by Oracle: NetSuite by Oracle is the AI-powered business management suite trusted by over 41,000 businesses, offering a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR. Gain total visibility and control to make quick decisions and automate everyday tasks—download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders, at https://netsuite.com/cognitive PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing SOCIAL LINKS: Website: https://www.cognitiverevolution.ai Twitter (Podcast): https://x.com/cogrev_podcast Twitter (Nathan): https://x.com/labenz LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nathanlabenz/ Youtube: https://youtube.com/@CognitiveRevolutionPodcast Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/the-cognitive-revolution-ai-builders-researchers-and/id1669813431 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6yHyok3M3BjqzR0VB5MSyk