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The Dividend Cafe
The Dividend Cafe
Author: The Bahnsen Group
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The Dividend Cafe is your portal for market perspective that is virtually conflict-free, rooted in deep philosophical commitments about how capital should be managed, and understandable for all sorts of investors. Host David L. Bahnsen is a frequent guest on CNBC, Bloomberg, and Fox Business. He is the author of the books, Crisis of Responsibility: Our Cultural Addiction to Blame and How You Can Cure It (Post Hill Press), The Case for Dividend Growth: Investing in a Post-Crisis World (Post Hill Press), and Full-Time: Work and the Meaning of Life (Post Hill Press).
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Today's Post - https://bahnsen.co/3NdZ2Sm
In a Monday Dividend Cafe recorded before the market close, David Bahnsen discusses the market and energy implications of weekend U.S. military actions involving Iran, emphasizing the show is not for strategic or editorial war analysis. He notes futures opened down about 500 points but equities recovered to roughly flat, while oil rose about 6–9% to around $70 and U.S. LNG-related names moved on the prospect of greater export demand if Middle Eastern supply is disrupted. He highlights the absence of a traditional “flight to safety,” with Treasury yields higher across the curve (10-year up about 9 bps, 2-year up about 11 bps) and defensives lagging while energy and technology led. Bahnsen argues outcomes hinge on conflict duration, but elevated valuations and broader uncertainties (AI, private credit, tariffs, courts) raise risk and volatility.
00:00 Monday Market Setup
00:51 What This Show Covers
02:21 Futures Drop Then Recover
03:26 Oil Moves And LNG Angle
04:50 Conflict Duration Scenarios
06:47 Why Markets Stay Calm
08:16 Bonds And Sector Signals
10:09 Valuations And Uncertainty
11:59 Closing Thoughts And Prayer
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
Today's Post - https://bahnsen.co/4u0yp3O
David argues there is growing, often uninformed media hysteria about private asset markets that affects everyone and conflates many separate issues into one negative narrative. David says the Dividend Cafe aims to deliver truth in a discernible, actionable way by parsing distinct “stories,” including AI’s potential impact on software firms and related loans, liquidity dynamics and loan quality in private direct lending, limited partners versus investors in private asset management companies, the implications of offering private-market investments to retail investors, and capital-markets “indigestion” from many sponsors trying to sell companies amid limited buyers. Bahnsen criticizes financial media for blending these topics to drive clicks and ratings, creating hype while obscuring important distinctions and actionable understanding.
00:00 Media Hysteria Setup
01:41 Why Nuance Matters
02:15 Ten Stories Not One
04:28 Media Incentives And Clicks
05:46 The Catchall Narrative
07:24 Closing Take On The Hype
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
Brian Szytel reviews a mixed Thursday market session with the Dow slightly up, the S&P 500 down about 0.5%, and the Nasdaq down about 1.2%, highlighting value’s outperformance versus tech. He discusses Nvidia’s heavily anticipated earnings beat (including guidance) but notes the stock still fell, arguing expectations were priced in and that AI-related capex at big tech is already starting and will inevitably continue to slow from a record pace that has pushed Mag Seven free cash flow slightly negative; as free cash flow rebounds, he expects more shareholder returns via buybacks, acquisitions, and potential dividend growth. He then explains the Depository Trust Company (DTC) system created in 1973 to simplify securities ownership and transfers, addresses concerns about government seizure as unlikely, and cites MF Global’s 2011 misuse of client assets as an example of illegal but possible misconduct.
00:00 Market Wrap and Style Shift
00:33 Nvidia Earnings and AI Valuation
01:10 Mag Seven CapEx and Shareholder Returns
02:45 What Is the DTC
03:59 Can Assets Be Seized
04:58 MF Global Cautionary Tale
05:51 Closing Thoughts
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
David Bahnsen fills in for Brian Szytel with a Daily Recap recorded shortly before the close as markets trade higher (Dow up ~300, S&P up nearly 1%, Nasdaq up over 1%) and notes upcoming Nvidia earnings. He focuses on economic takeaways from the State of the Union rather than politics, highlighting the lack of new affordability proposals as potentially market-friendly. He says Medicaid drug price controls were reiterated but have little market impact due to low passage odds, and that pharma has largely navigated tariff threats already. He reviews proposals for government-matched quasi-401(k) plans for lower-income Americans, requiring hyperscalers to fund their own power needs, and an unrealistic idea of tariffs replacing income taxes. He supports banning congressional stock trading and notes omissions on credit-card rate caps and 2026 tax-cut reconciliation, while flagging a call to ban institutional ownership of residential real estate.
00:00 Market Snapshot Setup
00:36 State of the Union Focus
01:12 Affordability and Policy Restraint
02:15 Prescription Drugs and Pharma
03:25 New Savings Plan Proposal
03:42 AI Data Centers and Power
04:17 Tariffs and Tax Reality Check
04:45 Congress Stock Trading Ban
05:04 What Wasn't Said and Housing
05:48 Wrap Up and Sign Off
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
Brian Szytel from The Bahnsen Group’s Newport Beach office recaps Tuesday’s market rebound: Dow +370, S&P +0.7%, Nasdaq +1%+, with the 10-year Treasury at 4.03%. He discusses reports of possible tax relief in the State of the Union as potentially positive for productivity and growth, while noting broader political concerns around tariffs and government involvement in private companies. He reviews the finalized broad-based tariff rate of 10% (down from a floated 15%), calling it a meaningful reduction—about $140B less in tariff revenue—supportive of economic growth. Szytel addresses media attention on private credit, saying delinquencies are only modestly higher, spreads remain tight, and lending continues; gated redemptions in some funds reflect illiquid underlying assets, not distress, and cited loan sales were near par (99.70). Economic data was broadly positive: Case-Shiller 20-city home prices +1.4% YoY (0.5% seasonally adjusted), consumer confidence rose to 91.2 vs 88.6 expected, and wholesale inventories were in line at +0.2% for December.
00:00 Market Rebound Recap
00:30 Tax Relief Headlines
01:17 Tariff Rate Update
01:57 Private Credit Reality Check
03:38 Today’s Economic Data
04:35 Wrap Up and Thanks
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
Today's Post - https://bahnsen.co/40qp47X
Snowed in New York recording opens with a sharp selloff (Dow -822; S&P -1%+; Nasdaq -1.1%). Weakness tied more to AI valuation and pressure in tech and financials than tariffs. The 10-year yield fell to ~4.03%; defensives led.
AI capex for 2026 is pegged at $650B across five firms. Nvidia’s $30B OpenAI investment is expected to cycle back via chip orders.
The Supreme Court ruled 6–3 that IEEPA cannot be used to impose tariffs; Congress retains tariff authority. Refund mechanics remain unclear.
Possible alternatives include Section 122 (150-day limit) and the more complex 301 and 232 routes. Strategas estimates a net $70B tariff reduction even if some measures return.
Refunds could total $120–130B, potentially stimulative, though implementation may be uneven. July’s USMCA review approaches amid improving U.S.–Mexico ties and rising U.S.–Canada tensions.
Q4 GDP was 1.4%; 2025 growth seen at 2.2% vs. 2.8% in 2024. Housing is softening, with markets pricing in 2–3 Fed cuts toward ~3%.
00:00 Snowed In Intro
01:15 Market Selloff Snapshot
03:24 AI Capex Reality Check
04:52 Supreme Court Tariff Ruling
06:33 Section 122 Workaround
08:06 Other Tariff Pathways
09:40 Economic Impact Estimates
10:44 Refunds and USMCA Fallout
12:56 GDP Housing and Fed Cuts
15:25 Geopolitics and Wrap Up
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
Today's Post - https://bahnsen.co/4tNvJGE
David Bahnsen opens Dividend Cafe after a volatile week marked by a weaker-than-expected GDP report and a Supreme Court ruling striking down President Trump’s tariff rationale under the Economic Emergency Act (with a deeper tariff discussion coming Monday). His core thesis: disinflation is likely in 2026—and it may not feel positive.
He clarifies the difference between inflation (rising prices), disinflation (slower price increases), and deflation (falling prices). Bond markets are signaling softer expectations, with the 10-year Treasury near 4.07% and five-year inflation breakevens around 2.4%, suggesting modest real growth ahead.
Recent GDP registered about 1.4% annualized, distorted in part by a government shutdown, while core PCE inflation is roughly 3% year-over-year versus 2.9% a year ago. Bahnsen expects services-driven disinflation, particularly as rent measures catch up to real-time data. However, that may not improve affordability given tight housing inventory and a frozen resale market.
He also warns that business investment is overly concentrated in AI and data centers—echoing the fracking-era CapEx surge—while broader investment remains subdued. Risks to growth include a weak labor market with low hiring, a personal saving rate near 3.4% (raising the chance tax refunds rebuild savings instead of fuel spending), and muted bank lending despite lower rates.
00:00 A wild news week
01:48 Cutting through economic spin
03:23 Why 2026 disinflation may disappoint
04:36 Bond market signals
07:16 GDP and data distortions
10:49 Services-led disinflation
14:05 Concentrated CapEx risk
16:38 Labor, savings, and lending
20:09 Tariffs and demand drag
22:24 What to watch next
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
Brian Szytel from The Bahnsen Group recaps a modest down day in markets—Dow down 267 points, S&P 500 down 0.25%, and Nasdaq down 0.33%—while noting the market remains up on the week. The 10-year yield edged down to about 4.07% amid expectations that a new Fed chair in May could eventually bring short-term rate cuts. He discusses rising Middle East tensions and increased U.S. presence tied to Iran, which has helped push crude higher (about 6% over two days; up ~15% YTD), but argues energy’s strong performance is primarily driven by supply/demand fundamentals and well-run businesses, with the sector up ~23% YTD and 95% of names above their 200-day moving average. He highlights leadership from defensives like energy, industrials, staples, and materials—often a late-cycle signal—while technology and communication services lag, with only ~40% of names above their 200-day averages; he notes some software valuations have compressed from mid-30s multiples to low-20s. Economic updates include better-than-expected initial jobless claims (206k vs 220k), a wider December trade deficit (over $70B vs ~56B expected), a stronger Philly Fed manufacturing reading, and weaker pending home sales. He closes by answering a question on non-GAAP vs GAAP P/E ratios, explaining non-GAAP adjusts for one-time items to estimate normalized earnings, while cautioning that recurring “anomalies” can make non-GAAP misleading and require careful analysis.
00:00 Market Close Recap: Indexes Dip, Rates Steady
00:52 Energy Sector Strength: Oil Headlines vs Real Fundamentals
02:08 Sector Rotation & Valuations: Defensives Lead, Tech Lags
03:30 Economic Data Roundup: Jobs, Trade, Manufacturing, Housing
04:07 Viewer Q&A: Non-GAAP vs GAAP P/E Ratios Explained
05:28 Wrap-Up & Weekend Sign-Off
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
Brian Szytel from Dividend Cafe provides a broad market update with all three major stock indices higher (Nasdaq up about 0.75%, S&P 500 up about 0.5%, and Dow up about 0.25%) while interest rates rose slightly, with the 10-year yield up three basis points. He reviews several economic releases, including January FOMC minutes that conveyed a more hawkish tone as inflation was described as slower to return to the 2% target, January industrial production that beat expectations (0.7% vs. 0.4%), and December durable goods orders that fell 1.4% but were better than consensus, with underlying measures stronger (excluding transportation up 0.9%, and core capital goods orders excluding defense and aircraft up about 0.67%, roughly double expectations). He notes housing starts and building permits were slightly better than expected but characterizes housing as still stuck due to interest rates, tax law changes, and reduced post-COVID mobility.
00:00 Market Snapshot: Stocks Up, Yields Higher
00:35 Key Economic Releases: Fed Minutes, Production & Durable Goods
01:41 Why Durable Goods Matter: Business Confidence & Capex Signals
02:40 Housing Starts & Permits: Still Stuck in a Range
03:10 Tariffs and GDP Explained: Net Exports, Double-Counting, and Reality
04:47 What’s Next This Week: PCE, GDP, PMIs & Consumer Sentiment
05:12 Wrap-Up: Broadly Positive Day + Q&A Invitation
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
Today's Post - https://bahnsen.co/4cpsVcz
In this episode of the Dividend Cafe, host David Bahnsen discusses the intersection of artificial intelligence (AI) and economic productivity. Speaking from Orlando, Florida, David examines the potential and vulnerabilities of AI as an investment theme. He highlights the need for a deeper understanding of AI's impact on productivity and critiques the current optimism surrounding AI investments. David reflects on past tech investment bubbles, specifically the dot-com era, to draw parallels with the present AI investment climate. Emphasizing the importance of prudent judgment and strategic planning, he cautions against overestimating the immediate economic benefits of AI while advocating for a long-term, judicious approach to AI-driven technology.
00:00 Introduction and Conference Update
00:44 AI Investment Themes and Vulnerabilities
05:00 Economic Productivity and AI
08:32 Studies and Reports on AI Productivity
11:35 Historical Parallels: AI and the Dotcom Bubble
14:58 Investment Strategies and Risks
19:07 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
In this episode of Dividend Cafe, Brian Szytel discusses the day's market reversal, with significant drops in the DOW, S&P, and Nasdaq. He highlights the ongoing rotation and decline in tech stocks, and notes falling long-term yields. Key economic updates include initial jobless claims and a notable drop in existing home sales. Szytel explores themes such as positive economic growth, new Federal Reserve leadership, and AI productivity growth. He delves into S&P earnings expectations, margin analysis, and the impact of lower inflation on real sales growth. Finally, he addresses a question about political influences on Fed leadership, emphasizing the qualifications and impartiality of the candidate in question.
00:00 Market Reversal and Daily Performance
01:08 Economic Indicators and Market Reactions
01:36 Sector Analysis and Earnings Expectations
02:38 Volatility and Market Dynamics
02:58 Earnings Margins and Sector Disparities
03:58 Inflation Impact and CPI Anticipation
04:24 Political Influence on Fed Decisions
05:26 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
In this episode of Dividend Cafe, Brian Szytel provides an update on a mixed market day with little movement in the indices. The DOW dropped by 66 points, the S&P was flat, and the Nasdaq saw a slight decrease. Bond yields rose following a strong non-farm payroll report, which showed 130,000 new jobs against an expected 55,000, led by the healthcare sector. The unemployment rate also decreased to 4.3%, while hourly wages grew by 0.4% for January, totaling a 3.7% year-over-year increase. Labor force participation ticked up to 62.5%. Szytel addresses questions about inflation perceptions versus reported CPI, explaining the difference between disinflation and deflation. He concludes with a reminder that good news should be seen positively and notes market reactions to Federal Reserve rate expectations.
00:00 Introduction and Market Overview
00:27 Employment Report Insights
01:25 Labor Force Participation Trends
04:00 Inflation and Personal Experience
05:20 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
In this episode of Dividend Cafe, Brian Szytel covers the market performance on February 10th, highlighting mixed results with slight gains in the DOW and declines in the S&P and NASDAQ. He discusses significant moves in the bond market, including a drop in 10-year Treasury rates, and comments on the anticipated impacts of incoming Fed Chair Kevin Walsh. Szytel also reviews economic data, noting a lower-than-expected Small Businesses Optimism Survey and flat retail sales for December. He touches on the potential effects of upcoming CPI data and AI-related market volatility, projecting that AI will be a transformative technology despite the current volatility in its investment landscape.
00:00 Introduction and Market Overview
00:34 Bond Market Movements
01:29 Economic Data Insights
02:37 Upcoming CPI Report
04:00 AI Volatility Discussion
05:06 Conclusion and Sign-Off
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
Today's Post - https://bahnsen.co/460ffB0
In this Monday edition of Dividend Cafe, we provide a recap of a relatively quiet market day following a highly eventful week. We discuss the significance of the DOW closing above 50,000 points for the second time, the major movements within defensive and software sectors, and the strong performance of the Japanese Nikkei index. Key insights include an analysis of market trends, software sector valuation changes, and economic impacts on smaller businesses. Additionally, we touch on the implications of quantitative easing and mortgage rate trends. The episode closes with a nod to recent sports headlines, including the Seattle Seahawks' Super Bowl victory and Pacifica Christian's basketball success. Tune in for a detailed breakdown of these topics and more.
00:00 Introduction to Dividend Cafe
00:16 Market Recap: A Boring Day After a Wild Week
01:01 Federal Reserve Chairman Kevin Walsh: A Deeper Dive
01:23 Monday Market Movements and Milestones
02:35 Historical Market Reflections
04:13 Sector Performance and Economic Indicators
05:23 Global Market Highlights: Japan's Surge
06:56 Super Bowl and Economic Insights
09:32 Quantitative Easing: A Critical Analysis
10:55 Oil Market Update and Fed Policy Speculations
13:03 Closing Remarks and Announcements
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
Today's Post - https://bahnsen.co/4rzbhrg
In this episode of the Dividend Cafe, host David Bahnsen discusses the recent appointment of Kevin Warsh as the new Federal Reserve Chairman by President Donald Trump. Bahnsen explores the implications of this decision on monetary policy, sharing his optimistic view of Warsh’s potential impact. He delves into Warsh's background, his stance on key economic issues, and the anticipated effects of his policies on markets and investment strategies. Bahnsen underlines the significance of Warsh's experience, his reformist mindset, and how his pragmatic approach could lead to a reduction in the Federal Reserve's footprint in the economy.
00:00 Introduction to Dividend Cafe
00:19 Kevin Warsh's Appointment as Fed Chair
03:42 Why Kevin Warsh is a Good Pick
05:06 Kevin Warsh's Monetary Policy Views
08:01 Implications for Interest Rates and QE
12:51 Market Signals and Fed Policy
18:19 Privatization of the Fed's Balance Sheet
24:16 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
In this episode of Dividend Cafe, Brian Szytel provides a market update from West Palm Beach, Florida, on a down day for major indices including the DOW, S&P, and Nasdaq. He discusses stronger-than-expected growth numbers, employment data disappointments, and sector rotations, particularly in tech and value stocks. Other key points include Bitcoin's significant decline, a shift in interest rates, and the impact of AI on software services and asset managers. Szytel notes that despite some negative sentiment, there is still value to be found in the market.
00:00 Market Overview and Indices Performance
00:34 Economic Indicators and Market Reactions
01:13 Employment Numbers and Market Impact
02:47 Sector Analysis: Software and AI
03:17 Asset Managers and Credit Markets
05:26 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
In this episode of Dividend Cafe, Brian Szytel from The Bahnsen Group discusses market trends from his West Palm Beach office. The talk focuses on the recent rotation in the market from overvalued components to staples, defensives, and cyclicals. Brian highlights significant performance discrepancies in the S&P 500 and notable declines in semiconductor and software sectors, partly due to AI's impact. He provides insights into recent economic data, including ISM services and private payroll numbers, reflecting a mix of positive and weakening trends. The episode also explores the resurgence of mergers and acquisitions, emphasizing the anticipated rise in private equity deals and its implications for capital markets.
00:00 Introduction and Market Overview
00:49 AI's Impact on the Market
01:58 Economic Data Insights
02:21 Labor Market Trends
03:17 Tech Sector Performance
03:35 Mergers and Acquisitions Outlook
05:10 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
In this episode of Dividend Cafe, Brian Szytel discusses the recent market downturn and major economic indexes, focusing on the impact of positive PMI and ISM manufacturing numbers. Szytel explores the rotation in various market sectors, including software, IT services, asset managers, energy, cyclicals, defensives, and staples. He delves into the implications of AI on software companies and the credit market. Additionally, he covers the effects of Federal Reserve policies and quantitative easing on asset prices and the economy, comparing the U.S. central bank's balance sheet to other major economies. Szytel also addresses future inflation expectations by analyzing the 10-year yield, offering insights on long-term financial trends and upcoming changes in Federal Reserve leadership. The episode closes with Szytel's thoughts on capital market efficiency and future economic growth.
00:00 Introduction and Market Overview
00:41 Economic Indicators and Sector Rotation
00:59 Impact of AI on Software and Asset Management
01:49 Discussion on the Dollar and Monetary Policy
03:19 Global Central Bank Balance Sheets
04:18 Fed's Role and Future Expectations
05:14 Understanding the 10-Year Yield and Inflation Expectations
06:58 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
Today's Post - https://bahnsen.co/4qULYQz
In this edition of Dividend Cafe, David provides a market update from an unconventional setting at JFK airport. He discusses January's market rotation, with a spotlight on small cap and value stocks outperforming large cap and growth stocks. Key sectors such as energy, materials, and consumer staples are highlighted, alongside underperformers like technology and communication services. Bahnsen reviews Bitcoin's decline, diverging trends in gold and silver, and significant movements in major indices and the bond market. Additionally, it covers notable corporate news related to AI funding, Oracle's significant capital raise, potential shifts in Nvidia's investment in OpenAI, and positive developments in the ISM manufacturing index. David also touches on declining rent prices and previews an upcoming detailed analysis on Kevin Warsh's Federal Reserve Chair nomination in the next Dividend Cafe episode.
00:00 Introduction and Travel Update
00:46 January Market Highlights
01:29 Sector Performance and Market Rotation
02:47 Bitcoin and Gold Analysis
04:14 AI and Tech Industry News
05:49 Economic Indicators and Housing Market
06:52 Upcoming Federal Reserve Analysis
07:33 Oil Market and Closing Remarks
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com
Today's Post - https://bahnsen.co/4toIPdw
In this episode of the Dividend Cafe, host David Bahnsen delves into the importance of portfolio rebalancing, a technique that his practice recently undertook with significant impact. Managing approximately $9 billion in client capital, they executed $530 million of buy transactions and $630 million of sell transactions over six trading days. Bahnsen details the benefits of rebalancing as a powerful risk mitigation tool, a potential return enhancer driven by behavioral finance, and an exercise in humility in the face of market unpredictability. He describes the mathematical simplicity of trimming assets back to their target weights and highlights the diversification of asset classes and sectors. Bahnsen underscores how rebalancing helps maintain a balanced risk-reward ratio tailored to the individual investor's goals and tolerance for volatility. Additionally, he addresses the tax implications, arguing that systematic rebalancing reduces the psychological and financial hurdles associated with large capital gains. Ultimately, Bahnsen advocates for rebalancing as a nearly effortless way to optimize a portfolio for both risk and reward.
00:00 Introduction to Dividend Cafe
00:04 The Importance of Rebalancing
01:39 Understanding Rebalancing Mechanics
04:08 Asset Classes and Rebalancing
08:07 Sector Diversification and Rebalancing
12:43 Behavioral Aspects of Rebalancing
19:03 Tax Implications of Rebalancing
21:33 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Links mentioned in this episode:
DividendCafe.com
TheBahnsenGroup.com





After hearing David on The World and Everything In It, I decided to Google him and came across some great additional sources to hear him... including this gem of a podcast!
David's logical brillance makes all of his afternoon missives easy to listen to and understand. On a personal note David's commentary gives me confidence as a client of the Bahnsen Group.
great breakdown of the situation in simple layman terms. always come out feeling better about things after listening to David.
came to this podcast via Radio Free California. awesome commentary, makes complicated stuff seem simple.
Best podcast on economic and financial matters that I have yet discovered.
Amazing podcast. I suggest you market this podcast more. Ive been looking for a informative podcast on the markets and found this podcast on my last try.