Departures with Robert Amsterdam

The tremendous velocity of history that Ukraine has experienced since independence to the Maidan revolution to the catastrophic war brought on by Russia's aggression often tends to be sold and told in neatly packaged narratives to the West - a heroic tale of a plucky democracy breaking from from the yoke of an authoritarian past. But the reality, as always, is much more nuanced, complex, and messy. This week we are pleased to feature an interview with Volodymyr Ishchenko, the author of the fascinating collection of essays, "Towards the Abyss: Ukraine from Maidan to War." Ishchenko, a sociologist based at Berlin’s Freie Universität, offers a critical examination of Ukraine's trajectory post-Maidan revolution and asks probing, intimate questions about moral leadership and the future political model that the people of this nation at war are still seeking and negotiating. While making no excuses for Russia's brutality in the war, in this conversation with Robert Amsterdam, Ishchenko brings criticism to bear on the leadership from the left-leaning school of thought, examining the costs of ignoring history, misrepresenting identities, and other factors which have fed the growth of nationalism in Ukraine at the cost of other sectors of the society.

It was just three years ago when the Economist magazine ran a cover story on Taiwan, describing it as "the most dangerous place in the world." With intensifying competition with China and deteriorating global security following Russia's invasion of Ukraine, there are many arguments that continue to support that negative outlook. But that's not the vision for CY Huang, a veteran investment banker with FCC Partners and an expert in the semiconductor industry. According to Huang, Taiwan benefits from its "Silicon Shield," the principle being that as long as the world needs Taiwan's dominant semiconductor production, Taiwan should be safe from foreign threats - though that level of security is tenuous and dependent on many other factors. In this fascinating coversation with Robert Amsterdam, CY shares his perspective on the geopolitics of semiconductor production, how the new era of AI is driving demand for more high-end chips which can only be manufactured in certain locations, and the recent history of the island's relations with the mainland.

As the war in Ukraine rages on into its second year, there remains little consensus or understanding of how the conflict could be resolved outside of military outcomes, and a persisting misunderstanding on behalf of the West regarding Ukraine's own internal preexisting social divisions. This week we're pleased to have a special guest, Dr. Nicolai Petro, a professor of political science at the University of Rhode Island, whose new book, "The Tragedy of Ukraine: What Classical Greek Tragedy Can Teach Us About Conflict Resolution," tackles these questions with unique literary framing. The conflict can not be understood merely on an institutional or rational level, but also must be considered in light of the emotional dimensions, Petro argues. Diving into the texts of Greek tragedies, Petro finds numerous illuminating parables from ancient Athenian society which can serve as frameworks to heal deep social trauma and create more just institutions. In this fascinating conversation with host Robert Amsterdam, Petro explores how he got the idea to approach the war from this perspective, how he responds to recent changes in Ukraine since the outbreak of war, and how the country may endeavor to secure its future.

From the Russian Revolution of 1917 to the chaotic disintegration of the Soviet Union in 1991, there is a dazzling and disorienting array of histories. While many books detail the lives and politics of Soviet leaders, Karl Schlögel invites us to better understand the experience of the country through the lives lived by more common Russians, from the depredations of communal apartments, repression, and violence, to the more prosaic aspects of Soviet life - the relics and rituals of museums, the grandeur and intensity of gigantic public works projects. In his new book, "The Soviet Century: Archaeology of a Lost World," Schlögel, who is one of Germany's most authoritative historians on Russia, presents a history that is not comprehensive or categorical, but instead personal. In this conversation with Robert Amsterdam, Schlögel discusses his approach to such a vast period with selection of coloful vingettes, taking the reader inside the Soviety experience with extraordinary depth and detail.

There is a strong argument to be made that the root of Palestinian identity can be traced back to the 1936-1939 Great Revolt, which united rival families and communities, melded urban with rural, and joined rich and poor together in a struggle against Zionism and the British Empire. This is the starting point in Oren Kessler's exquisitely detailed new book, "Palestine 1936: The Great Revolt and the Roots of the Middle East Conflict," which takes the reader inside the earliest days of Jewish migration from Europe during the interwar period, and raises numerous questions about the key events which continue to shape the modern Middle East conflict today. In this conversation with Robert Amsterdam, Kessler approaches the protagonists in this history with great care and empathy, and sheds light on the numerous complexities behind critical "what if" moments, from the Balfour Declaration and the White Paper of 1939. In light of the horrific October 7 attacks and the continuing conflict in Gaza, an interrogation of the historical roots of statehood in the region such as Kessler's book are a revelation and education.

Formulated by PRC think tanks in the mid-1990s, China's official slogan of the "peaceful rise" sought to calm Western fears regarding its blossoming economic, military, and political power as the nation resumed an outsized role in global affairs. However the mood did not last long, as in the later years of President Hu Jintao's administration, policies hardened into a more aggressive, militaristic stance, and then was continued by the personalistic regime of President Xi Jinping, as China sought to project power abroad to boost popularity of the regime at home. There are few people more qualified to examine this period than Susan Shirk, a professor at the University of California San Diego and the former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State in the Bureau of East Asia and Pacific Affairs. In her latest book, "Overreach: How China Derailed Its Peaceful Rise," Shirk takes apart some of the most common myths and narratives held by observers of China - namely that the "peaceful rise" was a deception instead of an intention, but this was not the case. Shirk explores the numerous and complex domestic factors guiding of Chinese foreign policy, while rejecting the premise that all decisions stem from the personal whims of Xi Jinping and his agenda for Chinese primacy. Xi does not enjoy any sort of full control over China, Shirk argues, but sits atop a complex, competing system of institutional imperatives, such as weiquan (sovereignty rights defence) and weiwen (stability maintenance). These imperatives often produce policies at odds with Xi's preferences, and leave China with a government that shouldn't be considered a rational unitary actor. In crafting policy responses to China's growing power and influence, Shirk warns against overreacting in ways that weaken the ability of the US to compete. In other words, stay true to the principles of a free and open market democracy.   The state behaves in ways that are not directed by and are sometime at odds with the preferences of the leader, particularly in the areas of , or, broadly, international and domestic security.    She takes a contrary view to those who would locate the source of Beijing’s behaviour purely in terms of Xi Jinping’s mission to centre China on the world stage. Instead, she notes that friction over the same issues analysts now frequently associate with Xi began much earlier than his term. These tensions have worsened under Xi, but they are not merely a product of his leadership. Nor, she argues, is Xi totally in control.

As 2023 draws to a close, it has become increasingly clear that there are profound misunderstandings and misapprehensions running amok in Western media narratives regarding the pecularities of the current state in China. That's precisely why there should be a high level of interest in a book of personal experience, nuanced narrative, and thoughtful observation from a Canadian academic who for a time played a unique role within China's state bureaucracy. In 2017, Daniel A. Bell was appointed dean of the School of Political Science and Public Administration at Shandong University—the first foreign dean of a political science faculty in China’s history. The story of his time in this position is enormously illuminating, highlighting both the immense challenges and also the occasional positives, and told with a certain level of humor and empathy often missing from accounts of politically sensitive jobs in the era of Xi Jinping. His book, "The Dean of Shandong: Confessions of a Minor Bureaucrat at a Chinese University," is a riotously fun, informative, and eye-opening tour through modern Chinese academia. In his interview with Robert Amsterdam, Bell recounts how if some of his more "constructive" takes on events in China were found to be inconsistent with the predominant narrative, he encountered isolation from Westerners who preferred their current understanding.

In June 2013, the journalist Vincent Bevins found himself covering a mass street protest in São Paulo, originally sparked by a rise in bus fares. As the tear canisters rained town and violent clashes with police began, the protesters began chanting "Love is over. Turkey is here," making a intentional connection to another uprising taking place across the world in Gezi Park in Istanbul. These parallel events, along with other major upheavals such as the Euromaidan movement in Ukraine, mark the highlights of a critical decade in modern history in which more people took place in mass protest events across the world than at any other time. And what we are left with after these disruptive, destabilizing events take place, how it reshapes the state and reconfigures political representation in the aftermath, is quite far from predictable and much less clear in terms of the public understanding of their meaning. This is the focus of Bevins' excellent new book, "If We Burn: The Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution," which ambitiously presents a history of the 2010s, globally, through the lens of popular uprisings and their discontents. Bevins, who also joined the Departures podcast in 2020 to discuss his other book, "The Jakarta Method" (more relevant now than ever, read it!), explains how he wrote If We Burn with distinct openness and neutrality, which allows readers to approach the work from many angles, and draw their own understandings of how these popular uprisings so often failed to produce the outcomes that they aspired to, and what can be learned for the future.

Following the October 7 attacks on Israel by Hamas terrorists, President Joe Biden began to refer to America's support for the Israeli offensive into Gaza as one that was equally aligned with US support for the war in Ukraine. This was a narrative that proposed that in both cases evil forces had attacked the innocent, and that it was America's role to help them both defend themselves. But the analogy is only partly legitimate, and also opens up room for quite a lot of criticism of the direction of American foreign policy generally in the post Cold War period. This brings up difficult questions about what Washington is trying to accomplish in these conflicts, and also points to the weakening level of public and moral support for those goals. Today we are featuring a very special and distinguished guest, Samuel Moyn, who is  the Chancellor Kent Professor of Law and History at Yale University. Moyn is the author of the recent book, "Humane: How the United States Abandoned Peace and Reinvented War."  During this podcast interview, we discuss his most recent article for Prospect Magazine, titled, "America’s undoing." That article can be viewed here: https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/world/united-states/64135/americas-undoing

As Russia's conflict with Ukraine grinds deep into year 2, there are signals of impatience and exhaustion among the country's key supporters in the United States and Europe, and increasing chatter about "stalemate" and pushing Kyiv to the negotiating table. But even for the staunch isolationists who view the outcome of the conflict through the short-term lens, there are deep and profound implications for the future of the global economic system at stake, argues journalist Maximilian Hess in a new book. Hess's new book, "Economic War: Ukraine and the Global Conflict between Russia and the West," does not dwell long on the political motivations or the strategic calculations of the military conflict, but instead focuses on how the response after the 2014 annexation of Crimea prompted a rapid expansion of sanctions, trade disputes, and barrage of financial weapons between Russia and the West.  These tensions have escalated to the point that the current war shouldn't be viewed so narrowly as merely a land grab or a NATO-phobia in Moscow. Instead its meaning is much broader. it should be seen as a war against the primacy of the US dollar, the Bretton Woods system, and the overall economic order which has guided commercial relations among nations for the past half century. The response to the February invasion, beyond providing assistance for Ukraine to defend its sovereignty, has been to collectively punish Russia and damage its economy - a strategy that is loaded with future liabilities. "Even if one doesn't accept all those arguments, or is a US isolationist, the argument I try to put forward is that if we lose this war, particularly if it then drives a wedge between the United States and Europe, that will be the beginning of the end of the international economic order which not only the West but so much of the world has benefitted from," argues Hess in this interview with Robert Amsterdam.

The early period of the Cold War in Africa includes some of the most shocking episodes of foreign intervention by the US Central Intelligence Agency, to the point that many of these histories would seem a bit too farfetched for Hollywood.  Such was the chaos in 1960-1961, right around the time that Congo achieved its independence from Belgium. American and Soviet paranoia was an all-time high. Sidney Gottlieb, a CIA scientist who would later become famous for his LSD mind control experiments, found himself meeting with the station chief in Léopoldville carrying vials of poison, with a promising young head of state named Patrice Lumumba viewed as a potential threat. This is the incredible tale explored in rapturous detail in the new book by Foreign Affairs editor Stuart A. Reid, "The Lumumba Plot: The Secret History of the CIA and a Cold War Assassination." Reid's book presents one of the most compelling narratives from this period of time, tracing the involvement of the CIA before, during and after the chaos surrounding the assassination of Congo's first Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba, an event which would send Congo on a sharply different path of misgovernance and squandered opportunity for less than clear benefits. In his conversation with Amsterdam, Reid discusses his process of writing the book and some of the most surprising revelations, from Soviet incompetence to American miscalculation, and the catastrophic outcomes which followed.

In an increasingly complex and fractured international system, the norms and expectations of how nations and markets interact is changing from one era into the next before our very eyes.  That is the main focus of inquiry for Gary Gerstle, whose new book, "The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order: America and the World in the Free Market Era," chronicles the 50 years of primacy of neoliberal thought in American politics before crashing onto the rocks of new ideological movements with the emergence of Donald Trump-style authoritarianism and Bernie Sanders-style anti-capitalism. In this conversation with Robert Amsterdam, Gerstle, who is the Paul Mellon Professor of American History at the University of Cambridge and the winner of the "Book of the Year" by the Financial Times, explains that not everything that happens in politics can be understood in short election cycle periods, but instead we should be looking at the overall conceptions of political economy and the order these beliefs sustain. Pointing to continuities of these orders, such as Eisenhower carrying on the New Deal system and Bill Clinton carrying forward with many core assumptions about trade inherited from Reagan, Gerstle argues we are in a moment of fragility and uncertainty, as once marginal voices in Sanders and Trump have now entered the mainstream. We are without a political order currently, and neither is democracy in a healthy state of competition, so what shall emerge next is unlikely to look similar to the past, as both left and right have lashed out against the free movement of capital, free movement of people, and both have different ideas of the role of the state in economic and social affairs.

This week we're doing something different at Departures - Robert Amsterdam surrenders the host chair and joins as the interviewee to discuss Amsterdam & Partners LLP engagement on behalf of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which is facing an existential threat following the Rada's passage of Draft Law 8371. Amsterdam discusses how the draft law represents a blatant violation of basic human rights and how this persecution conflicts with Ukraine's EU ambitions.

In the weeks following the October 7 Hamas terror attacks against Israel, Departures with Robert Amsterdam welcomes special guest Prof. Ron Robin, the President of the University of Haifa in Israel, who provides an assessment and analysis of what the country is going threre and what paths we see coming ahead. Amsterdam and Prof. Robin discuss the absence of governance which has taken root in recent years, the challenges facing a society under strain, as well as the rising tides of international anti-Semitism we've seen in response to the terror attacks.

In October of 1973, Israel's existence as an independent state was shaken to its core when Egyptian and Syrian forces crossed into the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights, triggering a conflict of sprawling geopolitical scale. This week, in October of 2023, following an unprecedented series of violent terror attacks against Israel by the Palestinian group Hamas, the nation once again finds itself in existential crisis - with similarities to the past conflict too numerous to ignore. Five decades later, public understanding of the conflict, its causes, and its protagonists is evolving as more and more materials and archives are declassified and made available to researchers. Taking advantage of these incredibly valuable resources comes the first new book on the Yom Kippur War in decades, authored by Uri Kaufman, titled, "Eighteen Days in October: The Yom Kippur War and How It Created the Modern Middle East." Speaking with Robert Amsterdam on the Departures podcast, Kaufman explains how the book represents a culmination of 20 years of research, including deep dives into English, Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, and German archival source material to draw exceedingly detailed and unforgettable portraits of the main characters who found themselves at the center of the war. Kaufman also shares his perspective and analysis of the current turmoil and commentary on the complicated political scenario making further escalation likely. The author points out that "the first casualty of war is not truth, although that is a close second. The first casualties are the assumptions you had going into the conflict."

As Russia's catastrophic war in Ukraine lurches its way toward another winter, an interesting debate is emerging regarding some of the fundamental ideas of Russian nationalism which has underpinned Vladimir Putin's casus belli, often including specifically misleading characterizations of history being used as a mobilizing force. In considering the relative complacency if not broad support for the war among the general public in Russia, there has been a consistent narrative spun out by the state - one of Western conspiracies, distrust, and patriotic duty. This week on the podcast we welcome Dr. Jade McGlynn, the author of the excellent new book, "Memory Makers: The Politics of the Past in Putin's Russia," who has accomplished a seminal work of research on the subject. In her conversation with host Robert Amsterdam, Dr. McGlynn argues that peope's understanding of the past is becoming a core part of their identity, and this in turn becomes a security issue. "A historical disagreement is not just a historical disagreement, but instead is seen as almost an existential attack," Dr. McGlynn says, and this is a type of mobilization that can be observed in many countries outside of Russia as well. "Most people want to belong to a community, they want to feel like they have somewhere they belong that can trace its heritage into the past, and feel good about that belonging," McGlynn argues. Unfortunately, many of the more traditional political figures appear to have lost touch with the importance of belonging, she argues, and left this space open for manipulation by demogogues and other extreme forces.

Eastern Europe, from the northernmost reaches of of the Baltics and down to the Balkan statelets strung along the Adriadic Sea, is one of the most perplexing, conflicted, and interesting regions of the world which still today remains the subject of myths and misunderstanding. Since the end of the Cold War, one could say that the region barely exists as a concept except in historical memory - but it also stubbornly clings to numerous shared cultural features and experiences that continue to bind it together. In historian Jacob Mikanowski's fascinating new book, "Goodbye, Eastern Europe: An Intimate History of a Divided Land," the author tackles a subject of almost impossible proportions and approaches it with a taut, elegiac personal history, painting an unforgettable portrait of the region. In this conversation with host Robert Amsterdam, Mikanowski discusses how he approached the research of such a challenging and diverse geopolitical subject, sweeping from the dark ages to the more modern political faultlines which have seen bloodshed, barbarism, and incredible human resilience and innovation.

In the wake of the 9/11 terror attacks, a sweeping transition took place across the international counter-terrorism space. Instead of responding to threats with law enforcement, numerous multilateral bodies instead respond with preemptive actions based on uncertain information - lists of names for sanctions are drawn up, very often directly violating basic due process and rights of individuals. This week on Departures we are proud to feature Gavin Sullivan, the author of "The Law of the List: UN Counterterrorism Sanctions and the Politics of Global Security Law." In his conversation with Robert Amsterdam, Sullivan discusses how his practice as legal counsel to individuals who had been unproperly listed by the UN Security Council informed his approach to analyzing and defining this sanctions list, and the often devastating impact the clumsy procedure can have on people's lives. Featuring numerous interviews with officials directly involved in the UN counter terrorism response apparatus, Sullivan's book presents a unique and valuable interdisciplinary study of global security law - law which is constantly changing and evolving before our eyes today.

For more than one thousand years, the Roman Empire ruled over a vast territory that was  unprecedented in both scope and scale. When it finally did fall under pressure from barbarian invasions and internal political divisions (among many other factors), many historians argue that the Romans sowed the seeds of their own demise.  Is the same set of processes now happening in the West? The historian Peter Heather and the political economist John Rapley have come together to interrogate this question in their excellent new book, "Why Empires Fall: Rome, America, and the Future of the West." In their discussion with Departures host Robert Amsterdam, Heather and Rapley explain how the forms of antiquity and modernity may have changed dramatically between the fall the of the Roman empire and the current buckling of Western hegemony, but nevertheless, how so many parallels continue to bear truth. Chief among them has been the global pivot towards nationalist populism, with the movement of labor and capital to the periphery, there's been a traditionally destructive rush to preserve the status quo ante. What may be done about the current trends, as much as they resemble the fall of Rome, remain quite unclear.

George F. Kennan is arguably the most important American diplomat of the modern era, whose "long telegram" and strategy of containment shaped the Cold War and postwar period. And yet, at critical moments later in his career, he was cast aside and shut out by the institutions he once led. In his new book, "Kennan: A Life Between Worlds," acclaimed historian Frank Costigliola draws attention to the very interesting and intimate details of his personal life and upbringing, drawing a much more complex and sometimes surprising portrait of America's top diplomat, bringing us inside his thinking and decision making experiences. In this podcast interview with host Robert Amsterdam, Costigliola explores the intricate web of politics, ideology, and personal struggles that shaped George F. Kennan's rise to prominence, and shares some of his thoughts about Kennan's policy visions which did not come to fruition, and what he might think of current global tensions.