The Grenfell Tower Inquiry Podcast

After more than four years, more than three hundred thousand documents, four hundred days of testimony and around £150 million, the Inquiry heard its final evidence. Lawyers for the core participants put forward the arguments they think the chair of the Inquiry, Sir Martin Moore-Bick, should consider as he produces his final report.Lead Counsel Richard Millett said all the deaths at Grenfell Tower were avoidable and strongly criticised companies and organisations involved in the refurbishment for failing to take responsibility. And Paulos Tekle, a Tower resident, whose five-year-old son lost his life on the night of the fire, tells us what he expects from the final report. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Luke Radcliff Researcher: Marcia Veiga Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

"I can’t undo the past, but I wanted to be a part of making things better” While the Inquiry has paused hearing evidence, Kate Lamble spoke in depth to Nick Hurd, a former Minister for Policing and the Fire Service and now the government’s independent advisor on Grenfell. She asked about his experiences while in government immediately after the fire and discussed what the future holds for the tower itself and how to memorialise the site. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Studio Mix: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

Toxicologist Professor David Purser told the Inquiry that the rapid spread of smoke was the principal cause of death, and that burning cladding panels and insulation were the main source of this poisonous smoke. The Inquiry also heard closing statements for Module 4, covering the immediate aftermath of the fire. From next week it will turn into an inquest, so for this reason the podcast will not be covering those hearings. The podcast will return when the Inquiry produces its final report for the government. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week the inquiry heard closing statements for Module 6, outlining how combustible materials came to be tested, certified and regulated and ended up being installed on the outside walls of Grenfell Tower. Lawyers representing the Bereaved, Survivors and Residents said the Inquiry had exposed fault-lines in the “edifice of government” and another said the “seeds of the Grenfell Tower fire were sown 20 years earlier”. There was criticism of manufacturers, regulators, building control bodies and of the government, with barristers accusing a “cabal of ministers” of being “enslaved to the deregulatory agenda”. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week, as we passed the fifth anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire, two expert witnesses levelled a series of fierce criticisms at the building safety regime. José Torero, head of the civil engineering department at a London university, described the competence levels among fire safety professionals as “extremely poor” and called for the Stay Put strategy to be abandoned. And Luke Bisby, professor of fire and structures at Edinburgh University, told the Inquiry, that he was “incredulous” at the misuse of fire tests by a cladding firm, and said there was a “significant problem” with the level of competence of fire safety professionals. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week, the Inquiry moved on from examining the aftermath of the fire and began hearing evidence from a series of experts in fire engineering. Luke Bisby, professor of fire and structures at Edinburgh University, described the results of a test on the cladding panels and insulation installed on the tower as the “most shocking experiment” he had ever seen. Barbara Lane, a fire safety expert, told the Inquiry that the culture inside the Building Control sector was of “worrying standards”. And Ivan Stoianov, an expert in water distribution systems, said that the quantity of water available for firefighters at Grenfell was “more than adequate.” Presenter: Sharon Hemans Producers: Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week, the Inquiry heard about the confusion, lack of grip and poor communication within Whitehall, as ministers and civil servants dealt with the aftermath of the fire. Nick Hurd was given the initial responsibility for leading the government’s response, despite being only two days into his ministerial position at the time of the Grenfell fire. He described the government’s actions as “wholly inadequate”. A senior civil servant described the local authority's response to residential complaints about housing as a “sign of defensiveness” and the Mayor of London’s chief of staff said that Grenfell residents were “failed by us as a society”. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week, the Inquiry examined how central government responded to the aftermath of the disaster while continuing to hear about London-wide emergency response arrangements. The Chief Executive of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea took two days to ask for emergency help from other London councils, after being “leant on”. An email written by then Prime Minister Theresa May contained damning criticism of RBKC’s response, describing their actions as “utter uselessness”. The British Red Cross said there was confusion over responsibilities between them and the council. Meanwhile this week the government announced that it was rejecting two of the recommendations made by the Inquiry back in 2019. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week, the Inquiry continued to investigate the events immediately after the fire by digging deeper into what happened at local rest centres which were opened to support survivors. An official who volunteered to help with the relief effort described the scene at the largest centre as a shambles, with chaotic scenes, an intimidating armed police presence and a lack of organisation. The authorities tried to send some residents from the walkway flats next to the tower back to their homes, despite them having broken front doors and lacking gas or communal heating. And we heard that at the time of the Grenfell disaster that tower block fires were not included in the official London Risk Register – even though it did mention wildfires and moorland fires. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week we heard different views from senior managers as to how the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea coped in the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire. We discovered that the chief executive initially rejected offers of support because he had “great confidence” in the council. And the inquiry heard reports that - on the night after the fire - some residents who had been evacuated from nearby buildings ended up sleeping in their cars or in parks because the council failed to inform them about alternative accommodation. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones Editor: Nicola Addyman

The Inquiry continued to hear evidence about the immediate aftermath of the fire. Rebecca Blackburn, a former Contingency Planning Officer for the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, described scenes inside the town hall as “pandemonium”. Her boss told the inquiry he regrets that he didn’t speak up about weaknesses in the council’s emergency plans and accepted he was too late in making some decisions about the response to the disaster. Survivors and relatives described chaotic scenes trying to find information about their loved ones and callousness in their treatment by the council. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week, the Inquiry moved on from the technical discussions of the building regulations and the role of central government to focus on the immediate aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire. Bereaved, survivors and relatives gave emotional evidence about their experiences directly after the disaster, saying they were “treated like criminals” with the authorities apparently most concerned about the possibility of rioting. They struggled to find officials on the ground in the hours after the disaster and there was little if any information available about who had died and who had survived. Many said they received poor support, including grossly unsuitable accommodation, causing more trauma. The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea admitted to numerous failings including in communication, accommodation and training. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week, three politicians gave evidence. Eric Pickles, former housing secretary, told the Inquiry that he could not understand how the government’s deregulation agenda could have discouraged civil servants from tightening fire safety standards, describing this as “inexplicable and unjust”. Stephen Williams, the minister responsible for implementing the coroner’s recommendations after a previous tower block fire, admitted he had never read the coroner's original letter. And former minister Gavin Barwell told the Inquiry that his private office didn’t receive key information.       Presenter: Kate Lamble     Producers: Sharon Hemans, Kristiina Cooper & Ben Henderson    Researcher: Marcia Veiga     Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones      Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week, civil servant Brian Martin completed his evidence after more than seven days. In his concluding evidence, he said that there were several occasions on which he believed he could have prevented the Grenfell Tower fire from happening. And – almost five years on – politicians appeared for the first time. Two former ministers with responsibility for fire safety, Brandon Lewis and Lord James Wharton gave evidence – following calls to ‘bear the brunt of the blame’ – to explain their decisions and policies. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Sound Engineer: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week, senior civil servant Brian Martin continued giving evidence to the Inquiry. As the only person to testify with experience working for both the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government and the Building Research Establishment, the Inquiry learnt about the intricacies and inadequacies of his role overseeing building regulations guidance. He conceded that he had underestimated the risks posed by cladding used on high-rise buildings like Grenfell Tower, and that he had lulled his peers into a false sense of security over the dangers. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans, Kristiina Cooper and Nathan Gower Researcher: Marcia Veiga Studio Mix: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week, the Inquiry heard from three senior civil servants: Dame Melanie Dawes, the former permanent secretary at the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government, said that she had not been informed about the risk of combustible insulation on high-rise buildings and conceded that the department had systemic failings. Brian Martin, a significant figure who was responsible for the fire safety section of the building regulation guidance, denied accusations of an information “cover up”. Louise Upton, who oversaw fire safety policy, was pressed on why she had resisted mandatory certification for fire risk assessors. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Studio Mix: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week, the Inquiry heard about the work culture in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and how Richard Harral, the Head of Technical Policy, was left feeling angry, frustrated and so “deeply ashamed” that he quit three years into the role. The Inquiry also heard from Sir Ken Knight, the government’s former Chief Fire and Rescue Advisor, who was asked why he didn’t react sooner to a tower block fire in 2009. And Dennis Davis, the Executive Officer of the Fire Sector Federation, concluded that “fire safety is often perceived as a burden”. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Studio Mix: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week the Inquiry heard from inside Whitehall, as two civil servants, Bob Ledsome and Anthony Burd, gave evidence. It was revealed that the All-Party Parliamentary Group on fire safety chased housing ministers 16 times about a promised revision to the building regulation guidance. And we heard about a briefing that was prepared a few days after the Grenfell Tower Fire, which described the department’s correspondence with this group as “appalling, delayed, partial and looks chaotic”. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Sharon Hemans and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Studio Mix: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week, the Inquiry heard from Debbie Smith, a senior figure in the Building Research Establishment for more than 34 years. She failed to speak up at a meeting with the government two days after the Grenfell Tower fire about the “immediate and present risk to life” ACM panels on buildings over 18 metres presented. And there was a significant milestone, as Anthony Burd, a former senior civil servant, became the first government figure to appear. Presenter: Sharon Hemans Producers: Nathan Gower and Kristiina Cooper Researcher: Marcia Veiga Studio Mix: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson

This week the Inquiry heard that cladding similar to that installed on Grenfell Tower underwent a “catastrophic” fire test 16 years earlier. Sarah Colwell, Director of Fire Suppression Testing and Certification for the Building Research Establishment (BRE), described the speed of flame spread as “shocking”. We also heard that the BRE failed to alert the industry about widespread and potentially dangerous misinterpretations of building regulation guidance. Presenter: Kate Lamble Producers: Nathan Gower and Sharon Hemans Researchers: Ben Henderson and Marcia Veiga Studio Mix: Gareth Jones Editor: Hugh Levinson