The Harper’s Podcast

In June, writers Rachel Cusk and Ben Lerner joined Harper’s Magazine editor Christopher Carroll for a conversation and Q&A in front of a live audience at the NYU Skirball Center in downtown Manhattan. Listen to Cusk and Lerner read from their recent Harper’s essays and discuss the state of contemporary fiction, Cusk’s use of artists’ biographies in her newest novel Parade, reading in a second language, parenthood, the role of ego in writing, and much more.Subscribe to Harper’s Magazine for only $16.97 per year: harpers.org/save. * “The Hofmann Wobble” by Ben Lerner, from the December 2023 issue of Harper’s* “The Spy” by Rachel Cusk, from the October 2023 issue of Harper’s* 11:31: “You can’t be both an encyclopedia and a news source without some kind of contamination.” —Ben Lerner* 19:09: “First of all, I thought, God, if I’d never told anyone who I was, starting with my parents, if I hadn’t accepted that containment in myself, what would I have created? What would my relationship to reality be?”  —Rachel Cusk* 25:18: “I mean this as a total compliment, but I read your books with a lot of dread.” —Ben Lerner to Rachel Cusk* 26:36: “What the novel has tried to do, kind of wrongly, I guess, in the end, is for the act of reading to also be an act of shared experience.” —Rachel Cusk* 28:34: “Being a good parent in the moment of composition, if you’re trying to take care of those imagined readers, can be deadly for the work – not always, but sometimes.” —Ben Lerner* 28:49: “On the other hand, having kids for me, especially young kids, it does refresh your wonder before language.” —Ben Lerner* 29:43: “If your work can change in the way you change, or people change, when you have children, I think that’s a really powerful thing.” —Rachel Cusk* 32:10: “I’m really into animal vocalization stuff.” —Ben Lerner* 34:23: “French has completely changed my English.” —Rachel Cusk* 40:24: “My dad told me never to learn to type because I would end up being someone’s secretary, which was kind of feminist of him I guess, but typing is the thing I’ve done the best with in my whole life.” —Rachel Cusk* 41:23: “I think there’s a lot of ego involved in the claim to disavow ego in writing.” —Ben Lerner* 42:45: “What is a shame is the idea that examination of self is egotistical.” —Rachel CuskThanks for listening to The Harper’s Podcast. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

Inspired by the pulp collectors Gary Lovisi and Lucille Cali, Harper’s Magazine senior editor Joe Kloc embarked on a freewheeling search for a magazine lost to time: the inaugural issue of Golden Fleece Historical Adventure. In this week’s episode, Kloc joins Violet Lucca to discuss his adventures exploring the world of pulp magazines, the act of collecting, and Lost at Sea, a book based on a previous feature Kloc wrote for Harper’s, slated for release in 2025. * Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save* “The Golden Fleece” * “Empathy, My Dear Sherlock”* “Lost at Sea”* 3:55 “What appealed to me about Gary and pulp collecting in general is, this is really for the love of the game.”* 4:06 “I was interested in the idea that people would be so passionate about those objects when it didn’t have that same monetary incentive.” * 16:20 “Pulps technically mean only the magazines, not the paperbacks.” * 19:00 “These pulp writers became those comic book writers. Those comic books become comic book movies, and these comic book movies are constantly competing for your attention.” * 25:52 “It gives you a feeling of being a child and remembering a time when all was before you and anything could happen.” * 27:28 “These objects carry a deeper meaning, even if they’ve been destroyed or lost.” * 37:18 “It’s hard to describe the power of Sherlock Holmes in the pulp collecting world.” * 41:02 “I’m not going to let go of my imagination. It always has been fun to think like this and it always will be fun to think like this.” * 44:40 “It’s a form of vernacular creativity.”  This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

With Trump as the forerunning Republican candidate for the 2024 presidential election, the Democratic Party appears to be falling back on the same familiar logic: better than the alternative. But certain progressive candidates are still looking to disrupt the status quo, however unlikely support from the establishment left may be. In this week’s episode, Harper’s Magazine’s Washington editor, Andrew Cockburn, joins senior editor Elena Saavedra Buckley to survey the landscape of the 2024 election with a focus on three insurgent candidates: Marianne Williamson, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and Cornel West. Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save * Andrew Cockburn’s article “Against the Current” * An interview with Dmitri Mehlhorn in the Intercept * 3:03: “Popping up on the picket line is actually a very hard turn for him as a president.” * 4:08: “It’s Trump all over, fake populism as usual.” * 5:40: “It’s only when the DNC decided to throw its full weight behind him … then Biden was popular for a while.”* 7:42: “He’s really not that old.” * 12:10: “I can’t think of any example where a president nominates a strong alternative. Instinctively no leader wants to be encouraging a potential rival.”* 14:39: “You don’t get anywhere by promising to make people’s lives better. The only thing you can do is convince people the alternative is worse, which is an infinitely depressing point of view.” * 17:30: “Obviously the candidate who has gotten the most attention has been Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and he has evoked a hysterical response.” * 19:14: “Marianne Williamson, who has gotten much less attention, has detailed proposals on everything.” * 19:53: “Cornel West has the most straightforwardly progressive agenda.” * 26:58: “She said the Republicans were like the dog who caught the car, and it was a car full of angry women.” * 28:44: “When people are asked why they don’t support Biden, they always cite the economy. The economy seems to be doing well, and yet, people are hurting.” * 31:38: “It’s getting late now for any kind of insurgency.” * 39:40: “The other fear is that people who would never vote for Trump can’t be bothered to vote for Biden or stay home.” This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

Today we’re rerunning an episode from 2018 featuring two interviews with Harper’s Magazine’s former New Books columnist, Lidija Haas, and with our current Easy Chair columnist Rachel Kushner. Listen in advance of our event tonight at the Center for Fiction, “What Happened to Gen X?,” which will see Harper’s editor Christopher Beha in conversation with his generational peers Rachel Kushner and Ethan Hawke as they explore the question at the center of our September issue.Dr. Christine Blasey Ford’s testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee—and Brett Kavanaugh’s irate response—was an excruciating bit of political theater, complete with righteous speeches from both sides of the aisle. (It also proved to be not much more than spectacle, as Kavanaugh was sworn in as an associate justice earlier this week.) Nevertheless, the event illustrated how we are socialized to perform and understand gender, race, and class. In this episode, New Books columnist Lidija Haas joined Harper’s web editor Violet Lucca to discuss a handful of recent publications that deal with these issues: Lacy M. Johnson’s The Reckonings, Rebecca Traister’s Good and Mad, and Kristen M. Ghoddsee’s Why Women Have Better Sex Under Socialism. In the second segment, Rachel Kushner, the author of The Mars Room and Telex From Cuba joined Lucca to discuss an essay she wrote that was included in the October 2018 issue’s Readings section, pulled from her memories of the late Nineties New York art world.Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save * “Learning to Wait,” Rachel Kushner’s latest column for the October issue of Harper’s* Rachel Kushner’s latest book, The Hard Crowd: Essays 2000–2020* Lidija Haas in the Harper’s archive* Lidija Haas’s review of Rebecca Traister’s Good and Mad for Bookforum* “Red Letter Days,” Rachel Kushner’s 2018 essay on the late Nineties New York art world* “What Happened to Gen X?”, our event tonight at the Center for Fiction This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

Isolated for years by strict censorship laws, community infighting, and language barriers, the writer Amir Ahmadi Arian often turned to Hamed Esmaeilion’s work for solace. In addition to authoring short stories and two novels, Esmaeilion chronicled mundane moments with his family on a blog that resonated deeply with Arian, someone of the same generation also working and living in the Iranian diaspora. Following the tragic death of Esmaeilion’s wife and daughter in the Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 in 2020, Arian witnessed his friend publicly mourn his family and transform his fury into action. Arian sat down with Christopher Beha, the editor of Harper’s Magazine, to discuss Esmaeilion’s journey into activism and the responsibility of Iranian diasporic artists.Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save * “Waiting for the Lights,” Amir Ahmadi Arian’s report in the September issue of Harper’s* Arian’s English-language debut novel, Then the Fish Swallowed Him  * Esmaeilion on his memoir, It Snows in This House * Canada’s response to the Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 tragedy * 7:24: “Before thinking about how to develop your characters, or how you structure the story, or the themes you want to focus on, the first thing you had to consider was: Will the book I am writing survive the censorship office” * 9:01: “I think it’s kind of a miracle we still have a literary culture, given the circumstances.” * 13:00: “The whole process is made to intimidate you, to show you that they know more about you than you would think and actually use it against you.” * 13:29: “He was being interrogated when his father-in-law passed away.” * 26:52: “So you go through all this difficulty, all this trouble, to just have an ordinary life.” * 28:31: “It’s not so much a decision that he made to pursue justice, it’s just an inevitable turn of events. There’s nothing else left to do.” * 33:12: “There was this hunger for any figure outside of Iran that could bring people together.”* 37:52: “All walks of life, all stripes, they were there, they were together shouting the same thing.” * 40:05: “The thing about the government in Iran is they have mastered the art, if you can call it the art, of containing any kind of revolutionary mass protest.” * 44:43: “The way out of Iran has been pretty much a one-way road.” * 47:17: “I have the freedom to tell what I want to tell, to tell the stories that I think are untold and unknown, while carrying the life that I had in my chest.” This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

Reviewing Zadie Smith’s The Fraud for the latest issue of Harper’s Magazine, Adam Kirsch takes stock of Generation X as a literary phenomenon. He finds “Gen X lit” to be composed of two distinct waves, between which Smith is caught. The younger wave, including writers Ben Lerner, Teju Cole, Sheila Heti, and Tao Lin, has formed its ideas about art, culture, and society partly in opposition to predecessors like David Foster Wallace, Elizabeth Wurtzel, and Dave Eggers—who claimed a great moral power for art—and partly in response to the younger millennials, who question whether art has any value at all. Kirsch is joined in this episode by Harper’s deputy editor Jon Baskin to discuss how Smith’s historical fiction operates within this literary lineage, why autofiction came to succeed the confessional memoirs of the Nineties, and what the novel form can do for us.* Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save* “Come as You Are” Adam Kirsch’s review in the September issue of Harper’s* “My Generation” Justin E. H. Smith’s essay in the September issue of Harper’s* 6:01: “Instead of rushing up to the reader and giving them a bear hug and saying, ‘This is who I am, please love me,’ which I think is a sense that I often get from David Foster Wallace, these younger writers are a lot more complex and ironic and elusive.”* 8:46: “Autofiction makes it possible to emphasize the moral ambiguities that memoir has to apologize for or hide.”* 14:21: “Smith is writing about things that have come up in her fiction since the beginning—things like: Is it my job to be politically virtuous as a writer? Or am I supposed to be telling some other kind of truth? Is there some sort of artistic mission that is somehow removed from political virtue?”* 18:44: “If you step back and make it an alternative reality—in this case, something in the past—you can make more of an effort to see all the way around the subject. And that’s something that Smith does very well in The Fraud.”* 31:06: “So much of it is about this sort of solidness and resistance to getting involved in things … As we get older and assume different roles in life, something of that remains, the desire to be a sort of Bartleby and say no rather than yes—maybe that’s what Gen X will be remembered for.” This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

In his September cover story for Harper’s, Justin E. H. Smith sets out to define Generation X, that nameless cohort wedged between boomers and millennials whose members, in midlife, now face “an annihilation of almost everything that once oriented us.” Smith argues that Gen X, having come of age before the erosion of fixtures like liberal democracy and rock and roll, failed to protect postwar counterculture from commercialism and corporatization. As debates about art and politics loom large today, Smith affirms the essential link between the two while championing what he identifies as his generation’s core pursuit of artistic autonomy and human liberation. Editor of Harper’s and fellow Gen Xer Christopher Beha sat down with Smith to discuss intergenerational relations, how Smith’s essay evolved over the editorial process, and how art at its best interrogates the arguable and not the obvious.* Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save* “My Generation” Justin E. H. Smith’s essay in the September issue of Harper’s* “Permanent Pandemic” Justin E. H. Smith’s piece from June 2022 about the endurance and overextension of COVID-19 digital infrastructure* 2:24: “my ideal audience is Harper’s readers”* 3:22: the relationship between art and politics* 19:07: “as a teenager in the 1980s, there was a widespread sense that our era was kind of a weak aftershock of what our parents had experienced.”* 27:04: “I think one way to think about this generation is a generation that came of age intellectually and emotionally and perhaps politically before the September 11 attacks.”* 37:06: “If we think that the state of emergency requires of us that we stop thinking about art as an autonomous sphere of creation … once you’ve lost that, you’ve lost everything.” This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

Stephen Sondheim may have brought the cryptic crossword to America, but Richard E. Maltby Jr. brought it to Harper’s Magazine. The lyricist, director, and cryptic creator sat down with Harper’s and one of his checkers, Roddy Howland Jackson, to talk about the history of the puzzle, the declining use of dictionaries, and the rise in word puzzle fascination. After all, “What holds the country together is the diversity of different nerd populations.”* Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save* Richard E. Maltby Jr.’s puzzles in Harper’s* A link to uploads of Stephen Sondheim’s Crossword Puzzles* Christopher Tayler on T.S. Eliot’s legacy* Ryan Ruby on Nabokov* 4:01: Stephen Sondheim’s cryptic crossword legacy* 7:51: The musicality of the cryptic* 14:14: “If you’re going to do something that is tricky, you have to be fair.”* 17:44: There’s no such thing as the English language.”* 26:26: On getting stumped by your own puzzle* 33:56: Modernist poetry’s puzzles and contemporary poetry’s…plain prose* 38:09: Clues are “designed to be read wrong.”* 39:56: Nabokov’s crossword legacy* 47:06: The dictionary as Bildungsroman* 55:26: Wordle! Spelling Bee! “As the language gets more and more debased, people seem to be more interested in language.”* 1:02:41: A cryptic proposal This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

In the spring of 2001, Benjamin Hale’s six-year-old cousin went missing in the Arkansas Ozarks, prompting one of the largest search-and-rescue missions in Arkansas history. Her miraculous discovery is a story in itself, but in a long Folio for the current issue of Harper’s Magazine, Hale also tells of the loss of another young girl in the same woods, decades prior, that seems eerily connected to his cousin’s. In conversation with Harper’s editor, Christopher Beha, Hale tackles questions of belief raised by a sequence of events so uncanny that they have prompted listeners—as well as those intimately involved—to search for other explanations.* Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save* “Who Walks Always Beside You?” Benjamin Hale’s essay in the August issue of Harper’s* “The Last Distinction?” Benjamin Hale’s piece from August 2012 about monkeys* 2:10: “I try to give the nutshell version and end up giving a story for an hour”* 10:50: Having to live in order to save another* 13:51: “My militant atheism was more informed by Carl Sagan” than Richard Dawkins* 17:00: There are certain things I don’t understand, I will never understand, and I’m okay with that.”* 20:54: The ethos of Arkansas* 25:16: “Go to the water, go to the river”* 30:42: On the 5,000 words that didn’t make the cut This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

In “The Return,” Joyce Carol Oates’s story for the latest issue of Harper’s Magazine, a woman visits an old friend whose husband has recently died, only to discover that the nature of her friend’s grief is more chilling than she could have imagined. Oates is joined by her former student Christopher Beha, the editor of Harper’s, to discuss the connections between writing and teaching, and between writing and time. Revisiting stories by Jorge Luis Borges, John Updike, and more, they consider the ghosts that haunt Oates’s story, the ghosts that haunt fiction, and the ghosts we would argue with if given one more chance. Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save* “The Return,” Joyce Carol Oates’s short story in the August issue of Harper’s * A complete collection of Ernest Hemingway’s short stories* Short stories by John Updike* Jorge Luis Borges’s story, “Borges and I”* Gabriel García Márquez’s One Hundred Years of Solitude* Pale Fire by Vladimir Nabokov* John Gardner and William Gass’s debate over literature* Donald Barthelme’s short story “The School”* A Void by Georges Perec* James Joyce’s Ulysses and A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. * 4:00: Teaching allowed you to “open a door, step into that other world of people”* 7:01: “It’s such a pleasure to read with other people”* 10:38: On being a “puppet-like dummy”* 14:06: “Not everyone is reading autofiction”* 23:00: “I find myself going into a surreal world, because the lost person is still real to the deeper self”* 25:21: Even in postmodernism, “there’s always that core of the lone beating heart”* 31:03: “If I’m writing a novel, it stretches out to the horizon”* 41:31: “If people came back from the dead, they would be the same people they were before” This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

In his August cover story for Harper’s Magazine, Jason Blakely argues that an overreliance on scientific authority, or “scientism,” only furthered the divide between those who adhered to and those who disobeyed public health guidelines during the COVID-19 pandemic. Instead of engendering legitimacy through dialogue, Blakely says, policymakers passed down “neutral” doctrines in the name of science and often at the expense of other social values. Blakely sat down with Harper’s deputy editor Jon Baskin to discuss his piece and its implications as we’ve gained hindsight on the pandemic. * Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save* Read “Doctor’s Orders,” Jason Blakely’s piece in the August edition of Harper’s* Jason Blakely’s book We Built Reality* The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, by Max Weber* Giorgio Agamben’s Homo Sacer* 4:32: How could these two opposite positions “shed light on our situation”* 8:12: “Some very extreme human experiences happened at that time”* 15:11: It’s the economy, stupid!* 17:02: “Humans are a weird animal; we can become like the things that describe us”* 23:20: “People have to be listened to in order to understand what’s guiding their life”* 27:26: RFK Jr., and the blurred lines between anti-scientism and anti-science* 37:09: “As daunting as it is to say politics must start from the bottom up, there’s no other way” This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

An estimated one out of every four Nigerians is a silent carrier of sickle cell disease, a hemoglobin disorder that can cause serious health problems and even death. With recent advancements in genetic testing, many Nigerians won’t take the risk of reproducing with other silent carriers or people with the disease. But, as Krithika Varagur reports, love doesn’t always accord with the Punnett square. Providing a snapshot of what our “genetic responsibility” could be as prenatal tests proliferate, Varagur sat down with Harper’s Magazine senior editor Elena Saavedra Buckley to discuss one couple’s story of public health, family, and most of all love in Lagos.* Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save* “Love in the Time of Sickle Cell Disease,” Krithika Varagur’s story in the August edition of Harper’s * Krithika Varagur’s book, “The Call: Inside the Global Saudi Religious Project”* Larissa MacFarquhar on the family court system* Katherine Boo’s piece, “After Welfare”* Aristotle’s Poetics* 3:35: The story started as “an aside my friend in Nigeria made”* 8:10: “I am a romantic, and I don’t think I would write this story about people who don’t choose love”* 13:25: “In a lot of traditions, unlimited choice is not the one way route to a good life”* 14:52: There’s been a “revolution” in sickle cell treatment over a single generation* 17:35: “Sickle cell is no longer a death sentence,” which complicates responsibility* 22:30: A range of possibilities is “closer to our reality with genetic testing” than a yes/no* 26:00: “Genetic responsibility shouldn’t turn into a genetic blame game”* 34:25: The best story is one that would be powerful at the dinner table* 37:55: To quote Carl Sagan, “If you want to invent an apple pie from scratch, you have to create the universe” This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

Christopher Carroll, the reviews editor at Harper’s, sits down with the former New Books columnist, Claire Messud, and her successor, Dan Piepenbring, to discuss the history, challenges, and pleasures of the storied column. The three critics go over their influences, the changes in publishing today, and, above all else, the great opportunity the column has given each writer to “go on a walk through your own mind.”* Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save* Claire Messud’s “New Books” columns * Claire Messud’s “New Books” column on Kurt Wolff, Phillipe Sands, and Tom Stoppard* Chris Carroll’s “New Books” column for July* Dan Piepenbring’s premier “New Books” column for August* Elizabeth Hardwick’s 1959 “The Decline of Book Reviewing” essay in Harper’s* Claire Messud’s novel, The Emperor’s Children* Dan Piepenbring’s book CHAOS* “New Books” columns, including Zadie Smith, Joshua Cohen, and John Leonard* Jonathan Franzen’s essay “Perchance to Dream” from April, 1996* 0:49: History of “New Books” coverage* 3:38: What goes into choosing a book* 7:36: Writing fiction as a critic* 9:10: Changes in publishing today, “gone are those days”* 13:59: “Centripetal vs. centrifugal forces” in book criticism* 15:45: “If you care enough about what happens, then the book has already won you over.”* 17:16: The critical pan, and why they’re less necessary now* 29:10: The pleasure of connecting different titles, “serendipitously” This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

Braucherei, a form of healing used in Amish and Mennonite communities, might seem like an appropriately antiquated practice for a traditional culture. But the writer Rachel Yoder returned to her Mennonite roots to investigate the practice’s modern uses. Embodying all the contradictions and complexities of the much-discussed Amish community overall, Braucherei might be most significant because of its commitment to an ancient practice: someone honoring your pain. “What could be more valuable?”* Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save* “In the Glimmer,” Rachel Yoder’s essay in the July issue of Harper’s* The Long Lost Friend: A Collection of Mysterious and Invaluable Arts and Remedies* 1:36: The origins of Braucherei* 4:25: The “flattening” of Amish and Mennonite communities in media* 14:20: An alternative solution to chronic pain: “pain itself can be so mysterious to modern medicine”* 19:33: The power of it: “Being two bodies together in a place and caring for each other.”* 26:59: The “evolution” of these communities* 33:40: Being interested in “the mysterious” as a direct link to being a writer* 35:52: Writers as a “secular clergy”* 37:17: Goop-mystics on the Upper West Side and the Amish healer* 43:04: Returning home This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists’ Doomsday Clock has never been closer to midnight, yet the nuclear panic of the 1960s feels like history. Jackson Lears, who served as a naval officer on a nuclear-armed ship during the Cold War, discusses how we have embraced the myth of technological prowess to detach ourselves from the horrors of war. “War is the most unpredictable, least controllable enterprise that human beings are capable of, and yet it’s the one to which we pay the most technological homage,” he writes. * Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save* “Behind the Veil of Indifference,” Jackson Lears’s story in the July issue of Harper’s * The Doomsday Machine by Daniel Ellsberg* Eichmann in Jerusalem by Hannah Arendt* Catch-22 by Joseph Heller* The Naked and the Dead by Norman Mailer* 2:35: 9/11 security state and its doomsday undertones* 6:40: The government has “given up on diplomacy”* 10:25: Stalin was less demonized than Putin today* 13:45: “The media is more like a stenographer for the security state now”* 16:45: “There was genuinely more interest in, curiosity about, and public awareness of the danger of nuclear war in the 1960s.”* 21:03: Faith in technology allows for a distance between the soldier and the target* 29:05: “Algorithmic rationality” protects the soldier from the “dreaded human error”* 37:38: The religiosity of the American military* 46:15: Assange, Ellsberg, any hope for whistleblowers? This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

After the Titan submersible imploded last week, Matthew Gavin Frank’s journey to the depths with Karl Stanley, a friend of Stockton Rush’s, took on a new meaning. (Frank rode in Stanley’s sub in February of this year; his essay, in which Frank meditates on the eternal dangers and allure of deep-sea exploration, went online the day after the OceanGate sub went missing.) He discusses Stanley’s warnings to Rush, mass fear, and whether he regrets his experience.* Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97: harpers.org/save* “Submersion Journalism,” Matthew Gavin Frank’s essay in the July issue of Harper’s* The New York Times piece which mentions Stanley’s objections to the Titan* [8:46] Submersible enthusiasts ignore the all-encompassing danger of the sea* [13:57] The psyche of a submersible enthusiast vs. the psyches of the rest of us* [16:13] “There is a malign quality to this certain and particular breed of wonder.”* [19:32] The Titan tapped into “a fuse of our greatest, fearful hits.”* [20:31] How the countdown aspect made us “keenly aware of how much closer we are to our own deaths”* [22:38] Joking out of love, joking out of spite, and roasting someone after they’ve died* [25:53] The media’s endless quest for ratings* [32:15] “If there is such a thing as an expert in risk assessment in one-off, uncertifiable, deep-sea manned vehicles, my resume is hard to beat.”* [35:28] Going for a walk, as an antidote to submersible addiction This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

Exploring 2,000 feet below the sea’s surface is something only professionals—or billionaires—are able to do. However, the writer Matthew Gavin Frank found Karl Stanley, an eccentric submariner, to take him to the depths in a DIY sub off the coast of Honduras. Frank dived to the bottom of the sea against his own anxieties and explored not only bioluminescence and sharks, but also the sublimity of being “completely quieted” as a writer. * Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97* “Submersion Journalism,” Matthew Gavin Frank’s essay in the July issue of Harper’s* Alberto Río’s poem, “Some Extensions on the Sovereignty of Science”* Leslie Jamison’s Make It Scream, Make It Burn* [4:30] Karl being a renegade, likes the lack of regulations of a place like Honduras* [11:20] Despite its danger, it’s also the only way to reach the “unattainable”* [18:28] The “largeness and mystery” of writing can calm his anxieties* [23:50] “Art for me is the product of obsession, I don’t know how to do it without it.”* [25:06] “I felt if not invisible then just gone. Like completely quieted.”* [36:15] Despite almost “calling the whole thing off,” he went through with it* [40:10] On Aristotle, the first marine biologist* [41:55] The thin line between mythology and domination* [52:15] “I think about it every day, if not all the time” This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

Only the good die young—no, really. The historian and Harper’s Magazine contributor Daniel Bessner joins Violet Lucca to discuss the series of love fests for Henry Kissinger, and Christopher Hitchens’s “The Case Against Henry Kissinger,” an iconic two-part takedown of the statesman published in early 2001. You can read this masterwork—and everything else Harper’s has published since 1850—for only $16.97 a year. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

It’s a familiar story, but one no less tragic because of its familiarity: a female author makes a huge splash with her debut novel, but despite her promise, the doors slam shut and she fades from view. Nancy Lemann, author of the cult novel Lives of the Saints (1985), discusses the experience of that career trajectory, as well as the recent, renewed enthusiasm for her writing in the pages of Harper’s, The Paris Review, and elsewhere. With candor and her distinctive sensibility, Lemann also lays out her myriad influences, from Walker Percy to Evelyn Waugh.* Subscribe to Harper’s for only $16.97* “Lions and Daughters,” Nancy Lemann’s essay in the June issue of Harper’s* “Diary of Remorse,” Lemann’s essay in the Fall 2022 issue of the Paris Review* “Musical Hallucinations,” Lemann’s post on The Daily* Lives of the Saints on Bookshop.org* Christopher Beha’s Substack* The Whole Five Feet on Bookshop.org This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com

On May 2, 2023, the Writers Guild of America called a strike. While this may seem far afield from an august magazine that specializes in literary nonfiction, the WGA’s demands are in-line with the mission of Harper’s: to uphold the rights and unique voices of writers. As the balance of power in Hollywood has shifted away from traditional studios and toward streaming companies like Netflix, Amazon, and Apple, their plan for “disrupting the industry” is almost identical to what tech companies did to journalism in the aughts. Tom Bissell, a member of the WGA and a contributor to Harper’s, discusses the finer points of the strike, the mood on the picket line, and the false menace of A.I. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit harpersmagazine.substack.com