unSeminary Podcast

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Andrew Hopper, Lead Pastor of Mercy Hill Church in North Carolina. Planted in 2012 with just 30 people, Mercy Hill has grown into a multi-campus, fast-growing church known for its gospel clarity and sending culture. In this conversation, Andrew shares why adoption and foster care have become central expressions of Mercy Hill’s mission—and how those practices flow directly out of the gospel. He also unpacks the heart behind his book, Chosen: Building Your Family the Way God Builds His. Is your church unsure how to engage big social needs without drifting from the gospel? Are you looking for a way to mobilize people beyond church walls while keeping discipleship front and center? Andrew offers a clear framework for doing both. Doing good as a sign of the kingdom. // Andrew addresses a common tension churches feel between community engagement and disciple-making. Mercy Hill refuses to treat these as competing priorities. Acts of service—whether foster care, adoption, or family restoration—are not the kingdom itself but signposts pointing to it. Meeting tangible needs creates openings for gospel conversations. These ministries don’t replace evangelism; they amplify it by demonstrating the heart of God in visible ways. A church’s collective heartbeat. // Mercy Hill’s deep involvement in adoption, foster care, and family restoration didn’t start as a top-down strategy but emerged organically from the gifts and passions within the church. Many leaders and members have adopted children themselves, shaping the church’s collective heartbeat. Rather than attempting to address every social issue, Mercy Hill chose to focus deeply on a few—believing churches are most effective when they lean into the specific good works God has prepared for them. This focus has mobilized hundreds of families and created a powerful witness in their community. Rope-holding and shared responsibility. // Not everyone is called to adopt or foster, but everyone can hold the rope. Drawing from the William Carey analogy, Mercy Hill equips members to support families on the front lines through prayer, childcare, meals, financial help, and presence. Over time, they’ve learned that rope-holding works best when built on existing relationships rather than formal assignments. The goal is to ensure no family fights alone in what Andrew describes as intense spiritual warfare. Big vision with baby steps. // Mercy Hill isn’t afraid to cast a bold vision—whether for global missions, adoption, or church planting—but they pair that vision with accessible next steps. Prayer nights, giving opportunities, short-term service, and relational support allow people to grow into greater obedience over time. High challenge without guilt creates healthy discipleship. Why Andrew wrote Chosen. // Andrew wrote Chosen: Building Your Family the Way God Builds His not to promote a program, but to give churches a theological foundation for engaging adoption and foster care. The book weaves together Andrew’s family story, Mercy Hill’s journey, and a deeply gospel-centered motivation rooted in Scripture. Designed to be used individually or in groups, Chosen includes discussion questions and practical guidance for churches or small groups wanting to explore this calling in community. Andrew’s prayer is that the book would catalyze thousands of Christian families to participate meaningfully in caring for vulnerable children and families. Gospel-driven motivation. // Underneath everything is Andrew’s conviction that gospel motivation outlasts guilt. Behavior rooted in grace goes further than behavior driven by pressure. Adopted people adopt people. Chosen people choose people. That theological clarity fuels Mercy Hill’s sending culture, their community impact, and their ongoing growth. To explore Andrew’s resources on adoption, foster care, and grab his book, Chosen, visit andrewphopper.com/chosen or follow him on Instagram @andrewphopper. You can learn more about Mercy Hill Church at mercyhillchurch.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We have got a multi-time guest on, and you know what that means. That means that I really respect, deeply admire, and want you to listen up, and today is no exception. Excited to have Andrew Hopper with us. He is the lead pastor of a church that they should be following, that you should be following. He’s a lead pastor of Mercy Hill Church with five locations, if I’m counting correctly, in North Carolina, and is repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country. I love this church on many levels. They’re centered on the gospel and have a radical commitment to sending people to the nations. They have a desire to make disciples and multiply churches. Andrew, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Andrew Hopper — Man, I’m so pumped to be here. Love the podcast. Really appreciate it, man.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’m honored that you would come back. For folks that that don’t know Mercy Hill, give me a bit of a kind of an update. Tell us a little bit about the church.Andrew Hopper — Yeah.Rich Birch — Maybe update us from last time you were on.Andrew Hopper — Yeah, man. So just real quick, planted in 2012. We had 30 people, all you know kind of young professional age, and man, just really believe that God could do something incredible ah through, you know just through our our open hands, and he did.Andrew Hopper — And so it’s been 13 years. It’s crazy. We’ve been sort of pushing the same boulder up the same mountain for 13 years, just flywheel kind of concept and keep pushing. And ah the Lord has done an incredible thing, like you said, five campuses. And man, just moved into a new home and hub. That was from last time we had a chance. That’s been really great. Andrew Hopper — We were in a rented location for a long time as our main like broadcast campus. We’re a video-based multi-site. And so um it’s ah it was a three or four-year journey to raise the money and build this new facility. But we’re in, and the Lord has really blessed that with tons of new people, highest baptisms, sent ones, first time guest numbers, all everything that we’ve done. This has been a, you know, we’ve gone been on a ride – praise God for that. It’s it’s, um, it’s for his sake and his renown, but this year has been unlike the others. So it’s been…Rich Birch — Yeah, you were saying beforehand, it’s like 30 or something like 30 some percent year over year growth. That’s insane to keep up with.Andrew Hopper — It is man. And the, and the giving does not, uh, you know, the giving doesn’t happen.Rich Birch — Reflect that yet.Andrew Hopper — So it’s, it’s like, we’re trying to do ministry on a budget of a church that’s 3000, but a church that’s running 4,500. And it’s like, how do you do that effectively without killing everybody?Rich Birch — Nice.Andrew Hopper — All your staff, I mean, so, but we’re, we’re learning, man, we’re figuring it out. It’s fun. We got, we just planted our sixth church. So that’s apart from the campuses. This is first time, Rich, we’ve planted a church in our own city.Rich Birch — Oh, nice. That’s cool.Andrew Hopper — It’s been really, a really cool dynamic and it’s been fun. He’s doing great. Man, it was a college student that we met when he was 19 years old at North Carolina AT&T 10 years later. He’s an elder here. He’s done a lot of different things. And man, he goes and plants a new church in Greensboro about five minutes from one of our campuses and they’re doing great.Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah, that’s so good. Well, the thing, there’s lots I love about Mercy Hill, but one of the things that I’ve loved about your church from the you know the chance we’ve had to journey a little bit over the years about it is you just have real clarity around the mission, this idea of making disciples, multiplying churches. It’s like that has been rock solid from the beginning. When you think about we want churches to have discipleship at its core, this idea of a church that actually grows people up in their relationship with Christ. What matters most at the foundation? How are you keeping that so foundational to you know what’s happening at Mercy Hill?Andrew Hopper — Yeah, I think um I think that we always sort of bought into kind of what we see in Acts 2 as a little bit of a flywheel. We call it gather, group, give, go. A lot of

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Tim MacLeod, a former nurse who escaped the financial treadmill by flipping couches—and now teaches others how to do the same. Are you a church leader feeling the financial squeeze? Looking for a side hustle that doesn’t require debt, special skills, or hours you don’t have? Tim’s story offers a practical roadmap—and encouragement—for anyone needing to close that income gap. Burnout and financial pressure. // Tim became a nurse at 21, newly married, supporting his wife through teacher’s college, and quickly thrown into adult responsibilities. The only way to stay financially afloat was by working overtime once or twice a week. When their second child was on the way, he realized the path he was on was unsustainable. Finding financial freedom. // Options like upgrading his nursing degree, relocating, or working in dangerous psychiatric facilities were unappealing. Tim needed something flexible, part-time, and profitable enough to replace overtime. He discovered flipping phones and iPads first, but competition was fierce. Then, after borrowing a trailer and responding to a free couch listing, everything changed. He cleaned it up, sold it the next day for $280, and instantly covered more than an entire nursing shift. Why flipping couches works. // The opportunity exists because of a gap in the marketplace. Most people don’t own trucks, can’t move heavy furniture, and face tight deadlines when moving. Sellers value reliable pickup over price; buyers value affordable furniture delivered to their door. Tim steps into this gap. With polite communication and kindness, he creates a “win-win-win”: sellers get rid of furniture quickly, buyers get affordable delivered couches, and Tim earns a consistent profit. He estimates most beginners can make $1,000/month by flipping just five couches—buying each for around $50 and selling for $250 with delivery included. A side hustle with time freedom. // One of the most surprising parts of Tim’s business is the flexibility. He built the early stages of his flipping business in the evenings with his wife and baby riding along—road dinners, cheap pizza, and trips to pick up inventory. Now he schedules pickups during school hours, stacks deliveries based on availability, and can pause or accelerate the business as needed. It’s ideal for ministry families with unpredictable schedules. Why you can succeed at this. // Many of Tim’s students are pastors or church employees, and he says ministry workers have unique advantages: access to storage at the church, a heart for helping people, strong communication skills, and the ability to bring calm to awkward interactions. Many pastors live outside their ministry communities—creating the perfect “import/export” opportunity where they can buy in one market and sell in another. And unlike many side hustles, flipping couches doesn’t conflict with ministry—it simply provides supplemental income with minimal stress. A free resource to get started. // Tim created a free Google Doc of scripts—his exact messages for starting conversations, vetting couches, and negotiating with integrity. To get it, simply comment scripts on any of his Instagram videos and he’ll email it your way. He also offers an affordable course walking through his full system, including storage setup, videos, delivery strategies, and scaling beyond $1,000/month. To learn more or access Tim’s free scripts, visit him on Instagram @thefulltimeflipper or explore his full course at tim-macleod.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We’re definitely having a very un-unSeminary episode today. You know recently I heard some statistics that I was like, man, we gotta do something about this. According to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics—you’re like, it’s a little early in the year for the Bureau of Labor and Statistics—but there’s a 13% gap between what religious workers—people who are clergy actually, is the title—and the average income in the country makes – a 13% gap. In fact, it even gets worse when you look at people, there’s a category called “religious workers, other”, which these would be like not the senior pastor types. This is like everybody else that works in a church. There’s a 40% gap between those people and the the average salary in the country. Rich Birch — And so why am I bringing this up? Because I know that there are people that are listening in today that are feeling that gap. Here we are in January and they’re feeling the pressure of that. And I want to help you with that. And so I’ve got a friend, like a friend from real life, friends. This is like we’re in the same small group. We know each other, incredible leader, and I want to expose you to him. But more importantly, I think he can help you with that gap.Rich Birch — It’s my friend, Tim MacLeod. Tim was a nurse with the dreams of fatherhood and home ownership, but after a few years was faced with reality and no time, no amount of overtime was really going to fill the gap that he needed to make things work. And after being stuck on that kind of financial treadmill, he found a way out. He found the niche of, wait for it, friends, flipping couches. What? Flipping couches and was able to quit his nursing job and now does this full time. And I’ve asked him to come on. Uh, because I think what he did at the beginning, even part-time, I think could help some of us today that are, that are listening in. Tim, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Tim MacLeod — Thanks so much for having me, man. I’m excited.Rich Birch — This is going to be a good conversation. Kind of fill in the story. Tell us a little bit, uh, tell us about your background, and how did you get in? How did you go from nursing to flipping couches?Tim MacLeod — So I wanted to be obedient and I got married maybe a little bit too young at 21. My wife was still in teacher’s college. And so very, very quickly I was thrown into adulthood of two cars, rents and all the things that come with that.Tim MacLeod — And nursing was good. I was a registered practical nurse, so not a university educated RN making bank, but doing okay with a college diploma. And I got the comfy gig at a long-term care home because I preferred eight-hour shifts and not the, I didn’t want nights.Rich Birch — Midnight and all that.Tim MacLeod — I just wanted, yeah, exactly.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah.Tim MacLeod — I wanted the free parking and the the reliable six to two shifts. That was just the lifestyle that I liked. And the only way that I could stay afloat financially was with doubles. I had to do my six to two and then at least once a week, usually twice, if I wanted to have any money to play with, um I would work the two to ten.Rich Birch — Wow.Tim MacLeod — And that was cool while my wife was in college or while she was finishing up teacher’s college, that was fine. And then, we had a newborn baby and that was fine. Because anytime that I would have to do those doubles, she’d go to sleep, go for a sleepover at her parents’ place. And, uh, and I would just drudge up the shifts.Tim MacLeod — And, but then when we were pregnant with number two, I knew that there was difficulties coming. And the road ahead did not look very good. And so I needed something different and all my options for replacing the income suck. Like I could go back to school and upgrade to RN, but I scraped through the first time. So that was nuts.Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — I didn’t have much hope in myself in that avenue. And I could go, I could relocate, I could move or I could commute about an hour and 20 away to the mental health hospital and make like danger pay in like an asylum, basically with my current qualifications.Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — And everything just looked terrible. I hated all of that. And all I needed was something better than overtime. I just needed to replace that portion of the income. And I needed something better in my evenings that hopefully I could do with my wife or from home. And so I was looking at side hustles.Tim MacLeod — And I had a little bit of success flipping phones and iPads because that’s all that I really understood…Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah, yeah.Tim MacLeod — …all I understood at the time. And I live about an hour north of where my in-laws live, which is a pretty dense population. I’m in the sticks and the supply was really light there. So I could reliably go for a free meal at my in-laws place, pick up an iPhone or three and for like 300 bucks and then bring them home and sell them for 450 bucks. And so that took that took the pressure off and that was like grocery money.Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — And it was really consistent, really reliable. And and it was fun too. I really liked it. I liked the negotiations. I liked, I liked not trading time. Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — Like I liked making making a profit instead of a wage. And that I was hooked on that, but there was competition. Like I wasn’t that clever doing that.Tim MacLeod — There was there was kids that were closer to the inventory ripping around in little Hyundai Elantras and uh i remember meeting this this Indian kid named Lucky, at least his Canadian name was Lucky, and he was beating me to all the goods. And and I met him one time to buy a phone for myself an

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Scott Landry, Senior Pastor of The Bridge in Ontario. Scott first joined the church in 2013 as a worship and student pastor before later stepping into the senior pastor role. Is your leadership marked by hidden wounds? Do you struggle with vulnerability in your ministry? Are you fighting the wrong battles—externally and internally? Scott recently released his first book, The Fight, a raw, deeply reflective look at the internal battles that shape our lives. Tune in as Scott’s story of redemption after hitting rock bottom offers an honest, hopeful picture of what it looks like to stop hiding, confront the truth, and let God rebuild what was lost. Honesty after years of hiding. // After ten years as a “professional Christian”, hiding behind his seminary degree, thriving ministry, external success, Scott’s internal life was crumbling. His marriage ended, his relationship with his daughter was severed, his ministry collapsed, and he hit emotional and spiritual rock bottom. That collapse became the catalyst for transformation—choosing vulnerability and refusing to fake spiritual health. Sharing scars, not open wounds. // Leadership requires discernment about transparency. Scott embraces the principle: share your scars, not your wounds. There is a kind of vulnerability that belongs with counselors, trusted friends, and Jesus alone—and another kind that can help others heal. For Scott, his book, The Fight, became a way to share healed places that might help protect others from making the same mistakes he had. Vulnerability isn’t weakness; rather, it’s a gift. The act of going first as a leader gives others the courage to do the same. Fighting the right battles. // One of the dangers we face is fighting the wrong battles. Scott uses the story of David and Eliab to illustrate how church leaders often get pulled into conflict—criticism, social media arguments, internal comparison—and miss the “Goliath” right in front of them. We often fight against the people we are supposed to fight for, especially in ministry. Learning to focus on the right fights is essential for healing. The breaking point—and the voice of God. // One of the most powerful moments in his journey is when Scott found himself alone, isolated, and furious at God. In an explosive moment of honesty, he shouted, “I don’t even believe in You anymore!” And then he sensed God say: “Then who are you yelling at?” That moment shattered his illusions. His anger, he realized, was evidence of God’s presence. God had been waiting for Scott at the place of his deepest anger—the place he had avoided his entire life. Pain as preparation. // Drawing from Joshua’s story and the painful preparation before Israel entered the Promised Land, Scott argues that discomfort often precedes destiny. The battles we face now equip us for battles ahead. Instead of asking God to end the fight, ask God to form you through it. Scott’s leadership has since been shaped around embracing discomfort—having hard conversations early, sitting with difficult emotions, and obeying God before understanding. Obedience in writing the book. // Writing The Fight began as an act of pure obedience. Scott resisted God’s nudge for a year, until finally acknowledging that he couldn’t ask God to bless one area of his life while disobeying Him in another. Once he opened a blank document, the first draft poured out in just three days. The writing became a healing process—one he initially believed was meant only for his children. The surprise has been how deeply his congregation has embraced his honesty and resonated with his story. Visit www.bridgechurches.ca to learn more about The Bridge, and pick up Scott’s book ,The Fight, on Amazon. To connect with Scott, find him on Instagram at @scottmlandry. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don’t need more pressure—you need support. That’s why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn’t stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It’s like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You are going to be rewarded today. We’ve got a great conversation lined up. I have my friend Scott Landry with us. He is the lead pastor at a fantastic church called The Bridge in or just outside of Ottawa, Ontario. Rich Birch — He joined the team in 2013 as the pastor of worship and student ministry and now serves as the senior pastor. Just being totally honest, friends, Scott and I are friends in real life. So it’s, these are actually, I find some of the funnier conversations because it’s like this weird conceit of like, we’ve got microphones between us and all of that. So, but Scott, welcome. So glad you’re here today.Scott Landry — Honored to be here with you, and better yet to be your friend.Rich Birch — This is going to be good. This is I’m really look looking forward to today’s conversation. So, um ah dear listener, I’m just going to pull back the the curtain. I really want you to listen in. Scott is an incredible leader and is doing, there’s lots of different things we could talk about, the way you’re using his his leadership and the church is growing and making an impact. And he’s got a bunch of platinum problems that he’s trying to figure out. And you know, where to get space and all that. But, but actually is none of that I want to talk about today. Actually, earlier this year, Scott released and a book. He wrote a book called “The Fight”. And what we’re going to talk about today is a little bit of the content, what it’s about and what led him to that process. And and then about ah the impact on ah his church. And I really want you to listen to in friends, think there’s a lot we can we can take out of this. Rich Birch — Why don’t you, how do you describe the book? When you, someone says like, oh, you wrote a book? What’s that on? I’d love to hear that. I’ve read the book, friends, so you just so you know.Scott Landry — Yeah, um it’s honestly somewhat of an autobiography, but it’s also a personal therapy session that’s on paper. It’s a little bit of biblical perspective in light of those things. And then I think hopefully pointing people who might read it to some level of personal insight or maybe personal application to both, both my story and also more importantly, the scriptural kind of you know, underlying and all of it.Scott Landry — So yeah, it’s not a self-help book, but I think it’s a self-reflective book. Rich Birch — That’s good. Scott Landry — And kind of hoping that people, yeah, hoping that people might see their story in the midst of mine. And and what what are the things that connect or are kind of similar threads through everybody’s story. And, uh, and, and it was, it it was, it was the cheapest version of therapy I could come up with, really. It was a lot of just kind of looking at my life and trying to make sense of it and and trying to find, find words for feelings I didn’t even know I felt. And, uh, yeah. And so just kind of putting it all out there for myself and also, for my kids and then, you know, the, the, you and the three other people that might read it. So it’s great.Rich Birch — Ah, and that’s not true. A lot more people than that have read it. At the core of this book, and we’ll get into this, friends, but at the core of this book, I would say it’s a high level of transparency. Like you are, you know, you let people in on, hey, here’s some stuff that I’ve been wrestling with, you know, over these years.Rich Birch — And I think most pastors think they should be transparent. That always hasn’t been the case. I’ve been in ministry long enough that there was a time where I think people actually wanted religious leaders who seemed perfect and were like… Scott Landry — Yeah. Rich Birch — …they’re these like, they’ve got their whole life together. That’s not the case anymore. People are looking for, and I think leaders want to be transparent. We want we want to kind of be honest with people. But the stakes sometimes feel higher for some reason. So what kind of led you to the place where you’re like, hey, I want to be vulnerable in a way, ah in written form, with your people, with the community around you?Scott Landry — Yeah, that’s a great question. Honestly, I think it was the fact that I hadn’t been authentic and vulnerable for too long and then lost everything because of it. You know, obviously I write in the book about my journey. I was a pastor for 10 years. I had a a seminary degree and didn’t have an unSeminary one, but I had the degree on the wall and I had, you know, the…Rich Birch — The real one, the real one.Scott Landry — They’re the real one. Yeah. And, uh, but I had all of that. I had 10 years

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Sarah Hooley, Executive Pastor at City Church in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Founded in 2016 by Lead Pastor Chris Freeman, City Church is a young, rapidly growing, intentionally multi-ethnic, multi-economic, and multi-generational church. Since moving from a setup/teardown environment into their renovated 60,000-square-foot facility, the church has experienced explosive growth—reaching 2,500–2,600 weekly attendees, baptizing nearly 500 people this year, and engaging a high percentage of unchurched and new-to-faith individuals. Is your church reaching people far from Jesus but struggling to disciple them well? Are you navigating the complexities that come with rapid growth? Tune in as Sarah shares how City Church reaches, welcomes, disciples, and mobilizes people who often arrive with little to no church background. Reaching the unchurched at scale. // From the beginning, City Church planted itself intentionally in one of Fort Wayne’s most racially diverse neighborhoods. Many guests arrive with no church vocabulary. Many don’t know the difference between the Old and New Testament or famous biblical characters. Teaching, therefore, is designed with zero assumptions, helping newcomers feel included while still deeply challenging long-time believers. Worship reflects the church’s diversity, blending musical styles in a way that unites cultures rather than centering one preference. Many first-time attendees hear about the church through friends who aren’t yet believers themselves—evidence that transformation is visibly taking root. Welcoming culture built by transformed people. // One of the most powerful forces shaping City Church is its culture of warmth and belonging. Their Connections Director, Victoria, came to Christ through City Church herself—giving her deep empathy for the unchurched experience and a passion for noticing people. Her team is trained not just to greet but to see people, engage them meaningfully, and make church feel safe and familiar. Serve teams are intentionally open to nonbelievers as a front door for community and spiritual curiosity—allowing people to “belong before they believe.” This relational warmth is often the defining difference-maker for guests who have never experienced church before. Discipleship for people with no foundation. // Rapid growth and a high percentage of new believers revealed a critical discipleship gap. In response, Pastor Chris launched Act Like Men, a 15-week, high-accountability discipleship course for young men covering identity, integrity, purity, humility, servanthood, and spiritual discipline. Women quickly asked for something similar, prompting the launch of Be Bold Women, a complementary course that includes teaching, mentoring, small groups, a women’s conference, and topics like emotional health, community, and living as a godly woman. A volunteer-driven church with a tiny staff. // One of the most stunning aspects of City Church is how much ministry happens through volunteers rather than staff. With only seven full-time staff and roughly 2,600 attendees, their ratio is radically outside national norms. Staff serve as equippers, not doers. High-level volunteer leaders oversee major portions of ministry: shadowing, training, leading teams, scheduling people, and pastoring others. Leadership development is an essential form of discipleship, not an operational necessity. Leading from abundance, not scarcity. // Sarah encourages leaders to adopt a “loaves and fishes” mindset – the question is not what the church lacks but what God can do with what it has. Simplicity, clarity, and focus keep the team aligned. Staff calibrate constantly, coaching one another to resist the pull toward doing everything themselves. Sarah also stresses the importance of relational support systems for leaders—cohorts, mentors, and peers who remind pastors that faithfulness, not outcomes, is the goal. To learn more about City Church, visit forthecity.com, or follow them on social media at @citychurchfw. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you’ve decided to tune in today. This is going to be a jam-packed episode. You’re going to want to buckle up. We’re talking about a lot of stuff today that applies to your church that I know will be super helpful. I’m excited to be talking to Sarah Hooley. She is the executive pastor at a church called City Church in Fort Wayne, Indiana. This is a church you should be tracking with. If you’re not, they were founded in 2016 by lead pastor Chris Freeman. It’s a diverse church in a city that is for the city with multi-ethnic, multi-economic, multi-generational community. It’s really, God’s doing some incredible things here, and you’re going to want to track along with that. And we’ve got Sarah on the show to help us. Sarah, welcome to the show. Sarah Hooley — Thank you so much for having me. It is a privilege to be joining you today. Rich Birch — Oh, this is going to be wonderful. I’m really looking forward to learning from you. Why don’t you tell us a little bit of the City Church story, kind of set up. Tell us a little bit about it. What’s going on Give us a sense of what’s happening at City Church. Sarah Hooley — Yeah, so we are a nine-year-old church plant. We were a set-up, teardown church for the last eight or so years ah seven and a half. We’ve move we bought a grocery store in 2020. Rich Birch — Good year. Sarah Hooley — Great time to buy a building, and and it was being used as a warehouse. And so we bought it and then the pandemic happened and we’re like, well, we still have a warehouse occupying the space. Maybe at some point it’ll become a church. We don’t know. And then it was just about a couple years ago that we then started a capital campaign and went to develop the the space. It’s 60,000 square feet. We developed about 40,000 square feet of it for our church. Rich Birch — Wow. Sarah Hooley — I’m thinking, man, that’s going to, we’ll be set for a good long time. And we are out of space already. Rich Birch — Yes. Sarah Hooley — And so and we moved from two services to three. And now we’re just, excuse me, trying to figure out what do we do? um God has just been moving in incredible ways. Like we have from the from the start been very intentional about wanting to be a multi-ethnic, multi-economic, multi-generational church. And where we planted has been very intentional. Sarah Hooley — So even where we were for set up and tear down, and we were right in the heart of the city where it was the most ethnically diverse within Fort Wayne. So Fort Wayne is roughly about 66% white in the city as a whole, but in our neighborhood specifically, it’s more 40% African-American, 20% white, 20-ish percent Hispanic. And so it is a much more racially diverse area. Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — And that is has been very intentional from the beginning. And so our location now, is it’s just been beautiful to see how God has really drawn people from every background. And, you know anyone who’s been a part of a multi-ethnic church knows that that that’s a messy process. It’s It is incredible to see, though, the the beauty and of what God can do when we are are not just attending a church together, but really in community with one another, and with people who come from radically different backgrounds um and and how that can really bring about a lot of healing in our stories and in our in our relationships. Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — And so um we have grown since moving into the building, we were about 800 people um when we were set-up/teardown. And then once we moved into the building, it has just been um exponential growth. So we we have grown very quickly and just tried to keep up with all of it. Sarah Hooley — One of the things that I’ve i’ve just loved about City Church is it’s very intentional about um reaching those who don’t know Jesus. And so the that really comes from our our lead pastor, from Pastor Chris Freeman, his heart for the lost. So a lot of our growth has not been transfer growth. It’s not just

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Aaron Stanski, founder and CEO of Risepointe, a firm that partners with churches across the country to design and build facilities that amplify ministry impact. With more than 15 years of experience in church architecture, project management, and ministry leadership, Aaron and his team help churches navigate complex building challenges while staying focused on mission. Is your church facing growing pains—crowded lobbies, full parking lots, or overwhelmed kids’ spaces—but unsure how to move forward? Aaron shares practical insights on how to approach facility planning strategically, align vision with budget, and avoid the costly mistakes that can slow down momentum. Overcoming the overwhelm. // When churches consider expansion or renovation, leaders often feel paralyzed by the process. Questions about cost, zoning, design, and disruption quickly pile up. Too often, churches jump straight to hiring an architect before defining their real needs. Instead, churches should first clarify what’s working, what’s broken, and what’s next before anyone draws plans. Start with scope and budget. // The two guardrails of every successful project are scope (what you’re building) and budget (what you can spend). Aaron warns that skipping this step often leads to beautiful drawings that churches can’t afford. Risepointe begins with a Needs Analysis, an on-site deep dive into the church’s DNA, culture, and challenges. The team listens to staff, studies how people use the building, and identifies bottlenecks—whether it’s the children’s hallway, lobby congestion, or limited parking. Only then do they define the right-size project and realistic cost range. The power of early engagement. // Most churches wait too long to start planning. Zoning approvals, fundraising, and construction all take longer than expected, especially in urban areas. Waiting too long forces rushed design work, unclear budgets, and lost ministry opportunities. You don’t have to build everything at once. Start with a plan that captures the next few wins—like improving your lobby or kids’ check-in—while preparing for long-term growth. Knowing when it’s time. // Aaron says early warning signs include maxing out your primary service, overflowing kids’ spaces, and parking lots at capacity. Many pastors misjudge space needs because they see the auditorium every Sunday but rarely experience the parking or early childhood chaos firsthand. Evaluating your entire Sunday experience—entry to exit—reveals where capacity problems really begin. Aligning buildings with ministry models. // Every church facility reflects a ministry philosophy—but those philosophies evolve. Where there used to be 40-year ministry cycles, now they are closer to 10 to 20. Churches shaped by the seeker-sensitive movement, for example, are now adapting to relational, community-driven models. Spaces that once emphasized rows and stages now need more environments for conversations, mentoring, and connection. A free resource for leaders. // To help churches begin the conversation, Aaron’s team created a free guide called “10 Things to Get Right Before You Build.” The resource walks through key questions every church should answer before launching a building project—from clarifying vision and budget to preparing for change. You can download it and schedule a free consultation at risepointe.com/unseminary. To learn more about Risepointe’s work helping churches align facilities with mission, visit risepointe.com/unseminary or follow Risepointe on Instagram for inspiration and project stories. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, across the country, we keep hearing about churches that are growing and we’re seeing swelling attendance and that’s good. Some of that is like a platinum problem though. It generates other issues that we have to think about. And so what what I did was pull on a friend of mine, Aaron Stanski, he’s the founder and CEO of Risepointe. He’s got 15 plus years of church design, leadership and project management and experience. Rich Birch — If you don’t know Risepointe, where have you been? You’re living under a rock. They’re church architects and designers. They have years of experience working with churches like yours, schools and nonprofits, and they offer a wide range wide variety of services, including architecture, interior design, graphic design, branding, and so much more. Aaron is, I like Aaron not just because he actually has got incredible skills. His team’s got incredible skills, but he really actually wants to help churches like you. And so Aaron, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I’m glad to be here, Rich. Rich Birch — It’s going to be good. Give give people, you’ve been on a couple of times… Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and but give us again, for folks that haven’t heard, the Aaron Stanski, you know, a couple bullet points. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — What did I miss? What do you want to fill in the picture? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, ah you know the quick story is grew up in ministry. My dad was a pastor growing up, planted a we planted a church in Boston when I was a kid. Went to school for engineering, worked for Harley Davidson Motorcycles, did big projects, project management and stuff for them for a while. And then felt called to ministry. Aaron Stanski — So left Harley Davidson, was on staff with Cru for a couple years doing college ministry before I jumped on staff at a fast growing multi-site church here in Chicago. So loved that, loved being part of that ministry team. And then, of course, we went through a big building project. So got to roll up my sleeves on the on the church staff side of things and hire architects and engineers and AV consultants and really kind of combine my my engineering mind and my ministry heart. And so absolutely love that process. And so, yeah, I’ve been helping churches now for the last 15, 16 years. It’s been an absolute blast. Rich Birch — So good. Well, the the kind of person I want to have in mind today, and so friends, if if you’re listening in, if this sounds a little bit like you, you’re going to want to pay close attention. So I’m thinking about that church, you know, the leader that looks around, they maybe have got, maybe they got two services. Rich Birch — They’re looking around and they’re seeing, ooh, they feel like maybe their growth ah is starting to create some pinch points. Maybe it’s in kids. Maybe it’s in adults. Maybe it’s their lobby. It’s they look around and they’re like, man, I just I feel like our facility might be holding us back a little bit. um And because I do bump into this in churches all the time. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — And there’s like, there can be like a certain amount of anxiety and fear around, gosh, when do I, what do I do? So when you talk to pastors, what do you know notice as one of the kind of most common point of confusion when it comes to starting or pulling the trigger, moving on with a building project, expansion project, try to improve things. Where are we getting this wrong? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think ah like one, the whole process itself can just be completely overwhelming. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — Like immediately you’re confronted with, ah oh my goodness, like what’s the right solution? What is the, ah what is the town or the, you know, the jurisdiction going to allow us to do? What is this all going to cost? Where are we going to do church in the meantime if we’re having to fix this building or add on to it? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Aaron Stanski — I mean, immediately all of these questions start to kind of well up and it can become ah really overwhelming for a lot of churches. Rich Birch — So good. So when when we step back, is there any one of those that you think in particular is like a piece of the puzzle that is the most kind of mysterious or is the most um confusing as as you that you bump into regularly with leaders? Aaron Stanski — I mean, I think the most confusing is probably like, what’s the right solution? Rich Birch — Okay. Yep. Aaron Stanski — A lot of times it’s a combination of like, you know, we feel like we’re out of space, so we

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tensley Almand, President and CEO of Atlanta Mission, the largest and longest-running provider of services for people experiencing homelessness in the Atlanta metro area. Founded in 1938 as a soup kitchen during the Great Depression, Atlanta Mission now operates four campuses, serving over 800 men, women, and children nightly through programs that provide housing, recovery support, and Christ-centered transformation. How do you lead through complexity while staying true to your calling? Tensley shares leadership lessons from his transition from church ministry to leading a $20 million nonprofit—insights that apply to every pastor or church leader navigating growth, complexity, or change. Moving beyond shelter to transformation. // While many think of Atlanta Mission as only an emergency shelter, over 60% of its beds are dedicated to long-term transformational programs that address root causes of homelessness. The yearlong program includes counseling, trauma recovery, life skills, and vocational training. Clients complete a four-week “Next Steps” program focused on relational, emotional, and workplace health. The results are remarkable: 70% of graduates maintain stable housing and employment a year later. Learning to lead by listening. // When Tensley stepped into his CEO role, he faced the challenge of succeeding a leader who had guided the organization from crisis to stability. Rather than arriving as the expert, Tensley began as what he calls the “Chief Question Officer.” He met with every employee to ask four key questions: What’s right? What’s wrong? What’s missing? What’s confusing? The responses revealed a clear need for strategic focus. Building clarity and focus. // Using that input, Tensley led a yearlong process to create a strategic roadmap—a seven-year plan that defines the organization’s mission, values, and measurable outcomes. When there’s clarity in an organization, saying ‘no’ becomes easy and saying ‘yes’ becomes difficult. The new strategy gave Atlanta Mission a unified framework for decision-making, with every initiative measured against the same mission. Measuring what matters. // Data fuels care. In order to better track client progress, the team at Atlanta Mission built dashboards, measuring not only how many people they serve but how lives are changing. When graduation rates dipped from 70% to 45%, they discovered the cause wasn’t program failure but economic change. That same approach can transform church leadership. Churches measure nickels and noses, but what if we measured progression—how many first-time guests become group members, or how many volunteers grow into leaders? Partnership through presence. // Atlanta Mission thrives through partnerships with churches across the city. Tensley explains that relational poverty—people lacking healthy connections—is as debilitating as material poverty. Rather than only focusing on “do for” service projects, he encourages churches to create “be with” opportunities: hosting birthday parties, sharing meals, or building relationships with families at Atlanta Mission. Encouragement for leaders. // Reflecting on his own journey, Tensley reminds church leaders who feel stretched or uncertain that often you’ll overestimate what you can accomplish in 90 days, but underestimate what you can do in a year or two. Take time to listen, build unity, and stay faithful in the process. Over time, that faithfulness becomes transformation—both in the people you lead and in yourself. To learn more about Atlanta Mission, visit atlantamission.org or email to connect or schedule a visit. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in. We’ve got a real honored to have an incredible guest on today’s episode. We’ve got Tensley Almand with us. He is the president and CEO of Atlanta Mission. Rich Birch — Now, if you don’t know Atlanta Mission, I’m not sure where you’ve been. You really should know. This organization was founded in 1938 as a soup kitchen to feed men who were displaced by the Great Depression. And they just keep chugging along. They do incredible work. They now serve Metro Atlanta’s largest homeless population and bring hope in the face of homelessness, poverty, and addiction. Rich Birch — Prior to serving at Atlanta Mission, he was in vocational ministry for 20 plus years, the last 12 of those, as we were just saying in the pre-call. He said, felt like he had the the best job in the world, was a lead pastor at Decatur City Church, one of the eight Atlanta City, Atlanta area campuses of North Point Ministries. Tensley, welcome. So glad you’re here. Tensley Almand — Man, so good to be here. Thanks so much for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation. Rich Birch — No, this is going to be good. I’m excited. Why don’t you kind of fill in the picture? Tell us a little bit more of your background and tell us a bit more about Atlanta Mission, that kind of thing. Just help set the table. Tensley Almand — Yeah, so I’m a native Atlantan. I grew up here, born and raised just north of the city. Yeah. Only child. Parents still live north of the city in the same town that I grew up in. Rich Birch — Nice. Tensley Almand — My wife and I, we have four kids. We have been married now, just celebrated our 25th wedding anniversary… Rich Birch — Congratulations. That’s great. Tensley Almand — …which makes me feel old, but it’s it’s it’s all good. So four kids, three boys, little girl, they’re all just amazing, doing great things and in their worlds. We live over in city of Decatur. So ah for those that don’t know, just kind of just right outside of downtown Atlanta. So we feel like we’re living in the heart of the city. Rich Birch — Cool. Tensley Almand — Like you said, I spent 20 plus years on the church side of ministry, which you had told younger me that that was going to be my future, I probably would have laughed at you. Grew up in a family that church just frankly, wasn’t that important to us. My mom gets mad if I say I didn’t grow up in a Christian home, um, which, you know, looking back, I think is really true. I just grew up in a home that we didn’t feel like the church was for us. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so, um, after, you know, meeting Jesus in college, giving my life to him, which is a whole nother really cool story, started down the path towards ministry. And eventually several years into that kind of looked up and thought, I don’t know what I’m doing. Like I’m working at these churches that I don’t even want to attend. Tensley Almand — Like remember this very pivotal meeting in my life where our pastor asked us, he’s like, if I didn’t pay you to go to church here, is this the church you would attend? Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — And every one of us said no. Rich Birch — Oh, gosh. Oh, my goodness. Tensley Almand — And they were all okay with it. Rich Birch — Oh, no. Tensley Almand — And I just like something broke in me. Rich Birch — Oh, no. Oh, no. Yeah. Tensley Almand — And I remember going home and I told my wife, I was like, I can’t do this anymore. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so I started the process of just trying to find a job. But the problem is I’ve genuinely felt called by God to ministry. And so God used that to, to lead us down the path of starting Decatur City Church. And, um, our whole dream was just to create a church that people who didn’t like church would love to attend. Tensley Almand — And so, which is really cool. Again, it’s probably a whole other episode, but really cool because we got to do that in one of the most unchurched cities in Atlanta. 70% of the people who live in Decatur ah don’t go to a church. And Decatur, for those who don’t know, small little town right outside of a big city. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — But literally, there’s over 600 churches in that town. So we used to say all the time, nobody wakes up on Sunday wondering where a church is. They just wake up wondering if church is for them. Rich Birch — Right, right. Tensley Almand — And so that’s, that’s the thing we tried to solve. Right. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so did that for 12 years, thought I would do that with my whole life. Just an amazing season. And then God called me out of there to Atlanta Mission. And so for those who don’t know, and we can get into that story here if you want to, but, for those who don’t know, Atlanta mission, like you said, it’s the largest and longest running provider of services… Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — …for men, women, and children experiencing homelessness in our city. So for perspective, what that means is on any given night, we’ll have about 800 men, women, or children who are staying with us. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. That’s a significant operation. That’s, that’s incredible. Tensley Almand — It’s a significant operation. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — It represents that in our city, that represents about 35 to 40% of all the shelter beds in Atlanta. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Tensley Almand — So that’s, it’s a, it’s pretty remarkable opportunity that we do that across three campuses in downtown Atlanta. Rich Birch — Okay.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jamie Barfield, the Lead Pastor at Palmetto Pointe Church in South Carolina. Palmetto Pointe is one of the fastest-growing churches in the country, with four locations in South Carolina, a campus in Southern Illinois, and Spanish-language services reaching even more people. Is your church in a season of slow growth or scarcity? Wondering how to stay faithful and creative when resources are tight? Tune in as Jamie shares powerful lessons from 18 years of ministry—how his team built a thriving, multiplying church by embracing perseverance, stewardship, and servant leadership. The long road to growth. // Palmetto Pointe’s story is one of persistence and faithfulness. It took three years to break 100 in attendance, five years before Jamie drew a paycheck, and six before the church had its own building. Today the church averages 2,500 weekly attendees and continues to grow—up 31% last year alone. Jamie credits that perseverance to remembering the “why” behind ministry: reaching people with the message of Jesus Christ. Stewardship over scarcity. // In the early years, Jamie says the constant feeling of “not enough”—not enough money, volunteers, or influence—could have been crushing. Instead, it shaped the church’s DNA around stewardship and innovation. Rather than throwing money at problems, the team learned to think creatively and maximize what God had already placed in their hands. That approach still drives their ministry today. Faith that looks forward. // While rejecting the “name it and claim it” mindset, Jamie embraces faith-filled vision. Even when he doesn’t know how to get to big things, he continues to be faithful with what he has right now. This conviction shapes how he leads – every resource is treated as a seed that can grow if cultivated with faith and hard work. Developing leaders intentionally. // One of Palmetto Pointe’s most distinctive practices is its 12-week leadership development process, a hands-on journey that every potential leader must complete before serving in a leadership role. Participants are recommended by current leaders and walk closely with Jamie throughout the course. During those 12 weeks, participants serve across multiple ministries and complete weekly assignments that build humility and discipline. Only after completing the program do they join the pool of eligible leaders. Multiplying wisely. // As Palmetto Pointe has launched new services and campuses, Jamie has learned key lessons about healthy multiplication. Each expansion begins with identifying potential pain points, recruiting dedicated volunteers, and ensuring no one burns out. Before adding services, his team recruits a core group committed to that specific time slot for at least nine months. Encouragement for church leaders. // As a district overseer, Jamie has a heart for pastors—especially those in smaller churches who feel stuck or discouraged. His advice: make one Sunday amazing. Pick one big day—Easter, Mother’s Day, or another big day—and go all in. Then pick one person and invest deeply in them. Small, faithful steps of stewardship often lead to exponential impact. To learn more about Palmetto Pointe Church, visit palmettopointechurch.com or connect with Jamie on social media at @pastorjamieb. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don’t need more pressure—you need support. That’s why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn’t stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It’s like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad to have you tune in today. We’ve got a great conversation. Really looking forward to talking to a leader who I know you can learn from, talking about stuff that is really important as we think about our churches and think about the future. It’s our honor today to have Jamie Barfield with us. He is part of the leadership team at Palmetto Pointe Church. I don’t know why that’s stuck in my mouth coming out.Rich Birch — It’s one of the fastest growing churches in the country with four locations in beautiful Myrtle Beach in South Carolina, a location in Southern Illinois and Spanish services as well. He’s an ordained bishop in the Church of God, serves as a district oh overseer for the Myrtle Beach and surrounding areas. He’s also served, he’s got a lot going on, in the State Evangelism Board for the Church of God in South Carolina. Welcome to the show, Jamie, a real expert on the show today. Appreciate you being here.Jamie Barfield — I don’t know about expert, but it is an honor to be here. I learned a lot from the school of hard knocks, so I will be definitely able to answer from that point point of view.Rich Birch — Love it. Well, Palmetto Pointe is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Now multiple locations, which is we see that 73% of churches over 2000 have multiple locations. For leaders that don’t know the story, kind of give me the story of your church. Tell me a little bit of what’s going on. If it were to arrive this weekend, what would that look like?Jamie Barfield — Yeah, wild, wild story. 18 years. We just celebrated 18 years. Rich Birch — Congratulations.Jamie Barfield — Took us three years to ever break 100. Five years before I was ever getting a paycheck from the church. Rich Birch — Wow.Jamie Barfield — Six years before we ever had our own facility. Seven years before I ever had another staff member with me. Right before COVID hit, we were doing four services. And then obviously COVID shut everything down. And last year, God’s favor has just been upon the church the last few years. Last year, we grew about 31% last year – it was wild. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. And what does attendance look like now on the weekends at your church?Jamie Barfield — We had 2,500 last Sunday. Rich Birch — Wow. Jamie Barfield — And we had but 2,500 last Sunday and that we we had about, of that probably 2,100 was here at our our main location here in Myrtle Beach.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s incredible. Well, I appreciate that you paced out the timeline there, because I think there’s a lot of church leaders who, or church planters who are in these early days, and it feels like, and the early days could be half a decade, you know, it could be a long time.Rich Birch — Take us back when you think kind of the mindset of that, what what what was that experience like? How did you keep going? Talk us through what did that look like?Jamie Barfield — Yeah. Early on, you know, and I talked at a conference last weekend about your “why”, knowing why you’re in this to begin with, knowing why you started and never forgetting the thing that actually put you in ministry to begin with. You know, that moment God called you, that moment that he asked you to do something great for him.Jamie Barfield — And in those moments or those seasons, um early on specifically, when you were ready to throw in the towel and ready to quit, you always had to be reminded of, okay, God, why am I doing this? What is it that you put inside of me that pushed me to want to do something great for your kingdom?Jamie Barfield — It was never about a paycheck. It was never about being on an amazing podcast like this. It was never about speaking at conferences. It was always about reaching people with the message of Jesus Christ and doing our best to get that out there. And so in moments where you wanted to throw in the towel and you wanted to quit, you always go back to those seasons of, okay, God, why did you call me into this to begin with?Rich Birch — And what, what, when you answer that question in your own life, where does that, but you know, kind of, when you think about the why, how, what is what’s the kind of image that comes to mind or language that you wrap around for, for you?Jamie Barfield — I’m very visual. So I think of standing before the throne of God one day and him saying, well done, my good and faithful servant.Rich Birch — So good.Jamie Barfield —And I’m so it’s going to be such a beautiful moment, but it also also motivates me .bBecause I think in that moment that I’m going to go in there almost nervous of the time that I wasted or the time that I gave up or the time that I… And I’m so I’m so motivated by that moment that I just want to stand there and have him look at me with a big smile on his face and say, you did it. You did everything that I put before you to do. You did it. Good job, servant.Rich Birch — That’s so good. Well, early on, if we could talk for real here… Jamie Barfield — For real. Rich Birch — …like church planting, man, it’s it’s it’s tough.Jamie Barfield — It’s the hardest thing ever.Rich Birch — And those early years, yeah, those early years, it’s like, I don’t know. It’s like, you’re not

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with John Sellers, Executive Pastor of Locations and a location pastor at Journey Church in Central Florida. Journey is one of the fastest-growing churches in the country, with a thriving online community, three campuses, and a fourth location on the way. Is your church struggling to help new guests take meaningful next steps? Wondering how to move people from attending on Sunday to fully engaging in community and serving? Tune in as John shares how Journey Church creates clear pathways for connection, builds consistency into its systems, and celebrates every step of faith along the way. The power of simple next steps. // Journey Church, once a traditional congregation, has experienced steady growth over the past 20 years—especially in the last five, averaging 10–15% annual increases. Rather than overnight success, it’s been the result of consistent focus on helping guests take simple next steps. Many churches lose first-time guests because they underestimate the courage it takes for someone new to walk through the doors. When someone visits your church, it means God’s already working in their life. Our job is to remove every barrier that keeps them from taking their next step. The “New Here” tent. // Every Journey Church location features a New Here Tent – the church’s first relational on-ramp for new guests. Volunteers greet visitors with warmth, celebrate the faith step they’ve already taken by attending, and offer a $5 gift card to a local coffee shop as a thank-you. This simple gesture opens the door for meaningful conversation, helps the team collect contact information, and lays the foundation for further follow-up. Six-week follow-up system. // From the moment a visitor shares contact information in exchange for a gift card, Journey’s six-week workflow ensures consistent and personal connection. Every new guest receives a brief video message from the lead pastor, followed by texts, calls, and emails from their location pastor and staff team. The messages include vision, invitations to next steps, and reminders about upcoming opportunities. If a guest doesn’t take a next step within that timeframe, Journey continues periodic follow-ups, keeping the door open for future engagement. A clear next steps pathway. // Journey’s Next Steps class provides the structure for moving guests toward increased connection. Held every weekend at every campus, the class runs on a monthly rhythm. Week 1 introduces the church’s vision and the gospel, inviting people to follow Christ or sign up for baptism. Week 2 focuses on serving, helping people discover their gifts and join a team. Week 3 is Baptism Sunday, offered every month across all locations. Week 4 celebrates new team members as they serve for the first time. Guests can join at any step, and every class includes free food, childcare, and relational discussion around tables. Lowering fear, increasing clarity. // Journey intentionally crafts weekend moments to affirm guests and point them toward next steps. A brief welcome moment after the first worship song specifically addresses new people: “We don’t know what it took for you to get here, but you made it—and that’s a big deal.” That language of affirmation lowers fear and builds belonging. Clear signage, follow-up stories, and visible next step options make it easy for guests to respond when they’re ready. To learn more about Journey Church, visit journeyconnect.org or follow @journeyconnect on Instagram. Download their New Here 6-Step Follow-Up Workflow here. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in and you’re gonna be rewarded for that because today we’ve got a great conversation. I know this is the kind of thing, in fact, I know this is helpful because I feel like every other day I get people asking about this area and this is the kind of thing that many of us can do just a much better job on and we’ve got really an expert on the line today to help us with. We’ve got John Sellers. He is Executive Pastor of Locations and is also a location pastor at Journey Church which has repeatedly been one of the fastest growing churches in the country. If I’m counting correctly, they’ve got three locations in Florida and a fourth in the works, plus church online. They exist to help people connect with Christ, community, and their calling.Rich Birch — Super excited to have you on the the show today, John. Thanks for being here.John Sellers — Thank you, Rich. I’m excited ah to be on. God’s been moving here and we’re just so thankful for you. I know we’re one of those churches that I don’t feel like we do anything unique or novel. Like we just learn from other people and learn from other resources.John Sellers — And your resources have been a part of our story. And so one of one of your books, in fact, over the last couple of years about creating an inviting culture at your church has been one of the one of the best resources we’ve had in the last couple of years. Rich Birch — That’s super kind. John Sellers — And so we’re one of those churches that’s benefited from you.Rich Birch — Wow. You and my mom read my book. I appreciate that.John Sellers — Yes, yes.Rich Birch — No, that’s good. I really appreciate that. Super kind of you to say. That’s that’s humbling, frankly, for you to say that. And so why don’t you kind of tell us a little bit about the church? Kind of tell us about Journey. Give us a sense. Talk about your role. Kind of set the table for us. John Sellers — Yes, you’ve, you said it pretty well. We’re in central Florida. We’re a little ways north of Orlando. So we’re in a ah county called Volusia County, which is the same county that has Daytona Beach in it. Rich Birch — Oh, nice.John Sellers — And, uh, our area is a lot of kind of blue collar people. They’re just incredible, um, men and women of God. There’s incredible men and women who are moving here. Um, and they’re the kind of people that would just give you the shirt off their back. They’re ready to serve. They’re ready to be engaged, ah to make a difference in the world around them. John Sellers — And so for us, we’re not in a big metropolitan area. So sometimes when we hear from other churches that are in big, you know, massive cities, sometimes it’s hard to relate to how that translates into small towns like we’re at, and medium sized cities. And so for us, what’s been helpful is podcasts like these, where I hear the principles I’ve read in a book at a church that’s maybe normal size or a little bit smaller or more kind of a normal size city. And so that’s kind of us.John Sellers — We’ve been multi-site for about 10 years… Rich Birch — Great. John Sellers — …and we’re continuing to see God kind of multiply our ministry. And ah yeah, that’s about it for for where we’re at.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. What’s your, ah I know this is, this is germane because of what we’re talking about today. Give us a sense of the kind of growth trajectory of the church. I know you’re a humble guy, so you’re not going to be like, oh, this, is we’ve grown by this and this and this. John Sellers — Yeah. Rich Birch — But kind of tell us a little bit of that story. That’ll help set the table a little bit for where we’re going.John Sellers — So we were um kind of a traditional, you know, First Baptist Church of Orange City. And our lead pastor came a little over 20 years ago, and he brought just kind of a church planting mentality with him and really a new vision, a new direction for the church.John Sellers — And so I would say our growth has been really just steady growth over those 20 years. And really in the last five to six, we’ve seen some incredible back-to-back years of double-digit growth, you know, in the, you know, 10 to 15% growth year over year.Rich Birch — Love that.John Sellers — And it’s just been kind of a steady year after year, making slow, small progress is the way I would describe it. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. So it has not been one of those overnight, hey, we went from a hundred people to 10,000 or anything like

In this special workshop episode, Rich Birch unpacks the same five systems thriving churches use to move from hoping for growth to launching it. If you’ve ever felt like your church’s momentum is hard to sustain—or that your people love your church but don’t naturally invite—this episode gives you a simple roadmap to turn things around before Christmas. You’ll learn: The 5 levers that fast-growing churches pull to train, equip, and motivate their people to invite friends Why building an invite culture is 15–25x more effective than marketing alone How to design a repeatable 90-day plan that sparks new growth before 2026 Real examples from churches seeing breakthrough results right now Plus: Rich shares a behind-the-scenes look at the Church Growth Incubator—a year-long coaching experience for church teams serious about sustainable growth. Learn more about the cohort here: Church Growth Incubator Proposal Click here to apply: apply.churchgrowthincubator.com Apply for the Church Growth Incubator by November 19th and unlock a special fast-action bonus — Rich will come to your church for a full on-site staff day in January–March 2026. This in-person strategy session (a $3,500 value) is designed to accelerate your church’s progress, align your team, and help you implement the five growth levers faster. Space is limited to those who apply before the deadline. Listen now and take your next step toward a thriving invite culture.

Nice is not a growth strategy. When I was a young adult, I worked at a Christian summer camp called Camp Mini-Yo-We. You know the place; canoes skimming across a glassy lake, worship songs around a campfire that somehow made the stars feel closer, friendships soldered together over bug juice and burnt marshmallows. It was the first laboratory where I learned leadership, not from a book, but from a cabin of eleven-year-olds who expected their counselor to be part sherpa, part coach, part mom. Six campers. That was our number. Six guys barely fit around the heavy pine dining-hall tables. I could sit at the head and scan the whole universe in one glance, who needed seconds, who needed sleep, who needed a nudge to apologize. At night, everyone got airtime as conversation slid into the delicious randomness only Summer Camp can produce. Six names? Between the 10 a.m. opening-day staff huddle and the 2 p.m. arrival window, I could have them down cold, name and hometown, hopefully making those first few moments of my campers’ time at Summer Camp a little easier by knowing their names. Then I moved up to an older program. Ten campers. Ten changed everything. Now we needed two tables. Walking around Camp, I had to count in my head like a security detail, “one, two, three…” because a head swivel no longer covered it. Ten names felt exponentially harder than six, not 33% harder … impossibly harder. The inside jokes multiplied faster than I could track them. Dynamics shifted. I couldn’t “pastor” each kid in the same way anymore; I had to build systems … ask guys to look out for each other, delegate a table leader, plan check-ins, and enforce lights-out like clockwork.Leading six was craft. Leading ten required architecture. I learned young: group size changes everything; the experience, the culture, and the leadership it takes to keep people safe, growing, and moving together. Scale doesn’t just add complexity; it alters the physics. And that truth doesn’t stop at the lake. “Niceness Trap”: How Healthy Cultures Turn Hazardous at 800 Let’s be blunt: 800 is a trap size. Only a sliver of North American Protestant churches ever hit 500–1,000 in attendance, roughly 4 percent, and fewer than 2 percent ever break 1,000. [ref] That’s not random; it’s structural. At 800, what got you here, tight relationships, consensus leadership, and that beloved “family feel”, quietly becomes the lid on what God could do next. Tim Keller called this “size culture.” Every size behaves differently, and if you impose small-church expectations on a larger body, like expecting the senior pastor to be personally available to everyone, you wreak havoc. Decision-making slows to a crawl, six-hour elder meetings become normal, and leaders burn out doing shepherding that should be owned by teams and systems. How the Niceness Trap shows up: Consensus as a creed. “We won’t move until everyone’s on board” sounds godly; it’s actually institutionalized paralysis at this size. The family becomes a club. Insider language, cliques, and a crowded calendar built around the already-committed signal to newcomers: this isn’t for you. Comfort over clarity. Leaders avoid disappointing legacy members, so innovation dies in committee. What once felt like unity becomes veto power. That’s not pastoral care—it’s organizational anemia. Your Church Doesn’t Need Another Idea—It Needs a Plan Most churches want to grow but feel stuck doing more without seeing results. Join Rich Birch for a free 60-minute workshop that gives you a simple, proven way to reignite momentum and see more people connected to your church. You’ll walk away with a clear 90-day growth plan you can actually implement—no extra staff or budget required. Wednesday, November 12th at 12noon ET / 9am PT Free online training for pastors and church leaders who want real results. Save My Seat Why Niceness Feels Godly (and Why It Isn’t) Niceness mimics fruit. It creates harmony, low conflict, and positive vibes. But harmony without movement is hospice, not health. Mid-sized plateau churches show an uncomfortable pairing: insider satisfaction is often high while evangelistic engagement is low. [ref] Per-capita giving can even look strong precisely because the room is full of long-time Christians, not new believers. Translation: your core is comfortable; your front door is closing. This is where theology gets misused. “We’re being faithful; we’re not chasing numbers.” Faithfulness and fearlessness are not enemies. The Church in Acts was constantly adding people and was constantly in tension. When “peace” becomes an excuse to protect preferences, that’s not gentleness … it’s mission drift. Litmus test: If a new person has to learn your internal slang, intuit your unwritten rules, and fight to get a seat at your proverbial table, your niceness is for insiders. Niceness that never risks, never disappoints, never decides isn’t love. It’s abdication. <Sidebar Rant> Can we please stop with all the TLA’s in the church? Three Letter Acronyms! They obscure meaning and clearly communicate who is “in” and who is “out”. </Sidebar Rant> When Consensus Kills: The Organizational Science of Stall At around 800, you are too big to function like a living room, and too small to afford bureaucracy. You need clarity … not more committees. Keller’s counsel is surgical here: as size grows, decision-making must shift from whole-church consensus to empowered staff and leaders, with the board focused on high-level governance. [ref] Refuse to shift and you produce exactly what you fear: burnout, ambiguity, and decline. Playbook moves (read: non-negotiables at 800): Clarify who decides what. If everything flows to the senior pastor or full board, you’ve already lost a year. Push operational decisions to staff; reserve mission/guardrails for the board. Hire for scale, not sentiment. Move from generalists who “do ministry” to leaders who build teams and systems (e.g., Connections, Kids, Students). Leadership is the multiplier. Time-box decisions. If a decision requires unanimity, it’s the wrong decision or the wrong table. Set deadlines; move. Pre-delegate change. Decide in advance the thresholds that trigger action (e.g., “At 70% room capacity for 4 consecutive weeks, we add a service in the next 6 months.”). Consensus is beautiful in a cabin of six. At 800, it’s a growth killer. The Cure: Clarity, Courage, and an Invite Culture This isn’t about becoming “corporate.” It’s about becoming clear. The courage to choose mission over maintenance will feel less “nice” to insiders and far more loving to the neighbor who hasn’t met Jesus yet. The data is stubborn: growing churches actively equip and encourage people to invite their friends, 72% of growing churches emphasize invitation versus 43% of declining churches. [ref] And on the demand side, the harvest is shockingly open: large majorities of unchurched people report they would attend if a friend invited them. Your problem isn’t interest; it’s invitation. Make Invite Culture your operating system Preach the why … relentlessly. “Every number has a name. Every name has a story. Every story matters to God.” Normalize invitation as ordinary obedience, not hype. Equip the how. Give scripts, cards, and social assets every series. Run a 3-week “Who’s Your One?” push twice a year. Low cost. High output. Fix the funnel. Invitation without assimilation is churn. Identify guests, follow up in 24–48 hours, and offer one over-the-top-obvious next step (New Here lunch, 101). Reduce options; increase movement. Design for scale. Kids, students, weekends, groups—these engines must have capacity before you step on the invite gas. A room above 70% full feels “full” and quietly repels guests; act before you hit the wall. A strong invite culture isn’t a program. It’s what a healthy church does when leadership is clear, structure is sane, and volunteers are equipped. Five Strategic Pivots to Break 800 (and Live to Tell About It) Think of these as your “from → to” moves—the shifts that turn niceness into leadership and momentum. 1) From Family Feel to Mission Clarity Cast a crisp, repeatable vision for outsiders, not insiders. If your insider language requires a decoder ring, you’ve already told guests, “This isn’t for you.” Teach your people to see the church through a guest’s eyes… jargon-free, warm welcome, obvious next steps. 2) From Consensus Culture to Accountable Ownership Rewire governance. Board = mission/guardrails. Staff = operations. Push decisions down to competent leaders, with clear success metrics and review rhythms. Replace “everyone signs off” with “the right people decide, on time”. 3) From Generalists to Builders of Builders Audit staff and key volunteers for scale capacity. Do they recruit? Build teams? Delegate outcomes? Your church stalls at the ceiling of your leaders’ ability to multiply leaders. Hire or reassign accordingly. 4) From Program Buffet to Simple, Obvious Pathway If new people have ten “next steps,” they’ll take none. Reduce to the one or two actions that most predict movement. e.g., New Here → Join a Team—then architect everything to drive there. 5) From Talk About Invite to Measure It If you can’t see it, you won’t shift it. Track documented first-time guests, return rate, conversion to groups/teams, and invite touchpoints. Celebrate every baptism, every “I was invited by…,” every story—because what you celebrate, you replicate. Common Pitfalls (and How to Avoid Them) “We’ll wait until everyone’s ready.” That day won’t come. Lead change with empathy, but lead—create listening posts, communicate early/often, and time-box dissent. “We’ll just add one more program.” Complexity is your enemy. Prune to grow. Trade breadth for throughput. “If we c

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Jeff Warren, Senior Pastor of Park Cities Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas. Founded 86 years ago, PCBC is a fast-growing multicultural, multilingual, and multigenerational church. What does it mean to stay faithful when leadership gets hard? In this candid conversation, Jeff shares lessons from decades of ministry—what he’s learned about identity, calling, and staying grounded when the pressures of leadership rise. From navigating the complexity of a large, legacy church to cultivating spiritual vitality among staff and volunteers, his perspective is both refreshing and deeply rooted in grace. A legacy church with a living mission. // Park Cities Baptist Church stands at the crossroads of tradition and transformation. Located in the heart of Dallas, the church gathers thousands each week across multiple venues and languages, including a thriving Spanish service. Jeff describes PCBC as “steeple people”—a legacy church that feels both historic and alive. Behind it all is a culture of warmth and hospitality, where five services, multiple worship styles, and vibrant connect groups reflect a single mission. The beauty and challenge of intergenerational ministry. // Jeff calls his congregation “intergenerational” for good reason. PCBC brings together everyone from centenarians to newborns, creating a living picture of the kingdom of God. While multiple venues help serve diverse preferences, Jeff’s deeper goal is to foster relationships across generations. The goal isn’t to erase differences, but to celebrate them as part of the family of God. Staying healthy as a leader. // After decades of ministry, Jeff has learned that sustainable leadership begins with identity in Christ, not performance. “Never base your worth on something that can be taken away,” he says, echoing C.S. Lewis. Ministry can easily become like a “drug,” feeding off the need to be needed or to see results. Jeff shares that his life verse, 2 Corinthians 5:21, grounds him in the truth that he is fully accepted, totally loved, and completely pleasing to God—not because of what he does, but because of who he is in Christ. This daily return to grace is what keeps him anchored through the highs and lows of leadership. Building a healthy team culture. // Jeff believes church health starts with healthy leaders. At PCBC, he models and expects rhythms of spiritual formation and accountability. The entire staff reads the same daily Scripture plan and discusses it together before meetings. The team also sets holistic yearly goals—spiritual, physical, relational, and vocational—to encourage balance and self-leadership. Living faithfully in the moment. // Through the challenges of COVID and cultural polarization, Jeff learned a lesson he now shares with his team: live in the present and define success by faithfulness, not outcomes. That posture of mindful obedience—serving whoever God places in front of him—is what what it looks like to be faithful with our moments, days and lives. To learn more about Park Cities Baptist Church, visit pcbc.org. You can also find Jeff Warren on Instagram and Threads at @jeff_warren and discover his book Live Forgiven wherever books are sold. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. I know it’s going to be the kind of thing that’s going to be helpful for you. Hopefully inspiring, hopefully help you to think about maybe the future of your church a little bit. Rich Birch — Today, we have got Jeff Warren with us. He is from Park Cities Baptist Church and has served in multiple roles. If I’m getting it right, the young adults pastor, the minister the men’s ministry associate pastor, and since 2010, the senior pastor. Park City (PCBC) is a multicultural, multilingual, multi-generational church that meets in multiple venues, which is lots of multis in one sentence in Dallas. They’re also one of the fastest growing churches in the city. Jeff, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Jeff Warren — All right, Rich. Hey, great to be with you, man. And you about got it right. Yeah, I was here previously as student pastor right out of seminary.Rich Birch — Okay, nice.Jeff Warren — And so I was here for lots of years and then and gone. Rich Birch — Yeah Jeff Warren — I was in McKinney just north of here for 10, 11, and then back. The Lord called me back where I’m now ah dedicating babies of kids in my youth ministry and, you know, all that kind of thing. So really cool.Rich Birch — So good.Jeff Warren — Yeah, yeah.Rich Birch — That’s great. Well, well, um I’d love to hear a little bit more about PCBC. Kind of tell us the story, fill in the flavor. You know, if you were, if we came this weekend, tell us a little bit of what we would see.Jeff Warren — Yeah, so you would you would come ah here at Northwest Highway in Dallas where there are thousands of cars driving by me right now. We are I like to say we’re yeah we’re a legacy church. You know, we’ve been around. We’ll celebrate this next month 86 years of being here in Dallas… Rich Birch — Wow, that’s amazing. Jeff Warren — …and the church was was it was planted, like a lot of folks probably listening, we met at University Park Elementary School ah for a while. Small group of people said there ought to be a church in Park Cities, where just right north of me right now from my office um was really the kind of the highest furthest point of North Dallas. We have ah charter members who remember it was big field, which is hard to believe. Rich Birch — Wow. Yes. It’s packed now. Yeah. Jeff Warren — You you can’t get out of a field, you know, for, yeah, for miles and miles. So all that said though, you would show up at big, you know, giant traditional, church with a steeple, you know, we’re steeple people, all the things.Jeff Warren — But once you, gosh, step in, you would find that you’re greeted with a lot of love. It’s a challenging ah thing to find, okay where do I fit in? Wait, where do I go? So you find it all on our website. But we have multi-, as you said. I like to say intergenerational, right?Rich Birch — Good. I like that. Yeah, nice.Jeff Warren — We’re cross-generational, but intergenerational, that’s hard work, you know, we could talk about too.Jeff Warren — But yeah, we have we have five services on a Sunday morning. Two of those, one’s in a chapel, one’s in a you know giant sanctuary, a beautiful sanctuary we have here. And then two of those are in the Great Hall where we have a contemporary you know modern worship and then En Español that meets in the and a Great Hall as well.Jeff Warren — So we have all that. It sounds complicated, but once you arrive, we can point you to where you need to be. We have connect groups on Sunday mornings as well. So you have all those options with kids and all the things that happen here on Sunday morning.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s ah that’s a lot going on. That’s that’s incredible. I’d love to talk about the intergenerational. You know, that’s obviously something that you’re excited about and that God’s used. Talk us through when you say intergenerational, what what do you mean by that? What’s that look like?Jeff Warren — Yeah. So you can imagine in a legacy church, a lot of different, the tension, you know, of a lot of different opinions, different experiences, all the things can make you crazy you know half the time, used to more so than it does now. I’ve seen it as just a glorious and beautiful thing to be in ah an intergenerational church where people have different ways of worshiping the Lord, different ways to connect.Jeff Warren — So that’s why, in part, we have you know a lot of different options here. We have you know you yeah I know you talk to a lot of folks who have kind of one church, multiple locations. I like to think we we’re multiple venues in one church, you know one place. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeff Warren — And we also have a couple of sites off campus too, though, with our Spanish-speaking ministry. But all that said, man, the beauty and the glory of of a church that has an older, you know, I called the gal two weeks ago. I called on a Saturday, called her on her 100th birthday, you know, to wish her a happy birthday.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.Jeff Warren — And then to be dedicating, as we did this past

Most churches are overspending on visibility and under-investing in invitations. In the late 1900s I ran a dot-com back when saying “I run a dot-com” got you a seat at the cool table. We obsessed over our branding. Fancy logo. Perfect domain. Debated five kinds of red like our lives depended on hex codes. Launch day came and… crickets. Why? We were doing marketing when we should’ve been doing conversations. The growth strategy wasn’t a new shade of crimson; it was getting out of the building and talking to customers. Churches make the same mistake. We assume the next Facebook hack, TikTok trend, or website refresh will push us over the top. But the channel we’re ignoring is sitting right in front of us every Sunday: people who personally invite people. The data has been shouting this for years: personal invitations beat paid reach … in effectiveness, in trust, and in retention. You don’t need a new logo, Google Ads, or a slicker site. You need to build inviters. If you want durable and compounding growth, stop buying marketing and start building inviters. Call it Invite Propensity, the percentage of attenders who invite someone in a given period. It’s the church’s NPS (Net Promoter Score): a simple human metric that predicts future growth better than vanity numbers (impressions, followers, even raw attendance). When invite propensity rises, everything compounds — first-time guests, baptisms, small-group participation — because invitation rides on the rails of relationship, the most trusted medium on earth. Your Church Doesn’t Need Another Idea—It Needs a Plan Most churches want to grow but feel stuck doing more without seeing results. Join Rich Birch for a free 60-minute workshop that gives you a simple, proven way to reignite momentum and see more people connected to your church. You’ll walk away with a clear 90-day growth plan you can actually implement—no extra staff or budget required. Wednesday, November 12th at 12noon ET / 9am PT Free online training for pastors and church leaders who want real results. Save My Seat Why “More Marketing” ≠ “More Reach” We live in the attention recession. More posts, more reels, more ads, but diminishing returns. Meanwhile, trust in institutional messaging lags far behind trust in people we actually know. According to Nielsen’s global survey, recommendations from friends and family are the most trusted form of promotion, outranking every ad channel by a mile. [ref] McKinsey adds that word-of-mouth drives 20–50% of decisions, cutting through the noise in ways paid media can’t. [ref] Translation for church leaders: the most persuasive “ad” for your church isn’t an ad. It’s a friend who says, “Sit with me.” And it’s not just first-touch effectiveness. It’s stickiness. People who come through relationships are more likely to stay because relationships are the glue. Research on assimilation shows that those who remain active long-term average seven new friendships; those who drift away average fewer than two. [ref] Friends don’t just get people in the door … they keep connected to the church long term. Personal invite dominates first visits. Decades of studies converge on the same point: the #1 reason people attend a church is that someone they know invited them, far outstripping ads and programs. [ref] Younger adults are even more invite-driven. Recent surveys of evangelicals show 71% of under-35s first connected to their church via a personal invitation, versus ~51% among 55+, authenticity and relationships trump exploration. [ref] None of this requires marketing spending or media buy. It requires a robust invite culture. Invite Propensity Invite Propensity is the share of your congregation that has personally invited someone in the last 90 days. Why it matters: Predictive power. Invite Propensity is a leading indicator. Attendance is lagging. Track the leading indicator. Compounding effects. One person invites one friend; some of those friends invite friends; the network compounds. Budget sanity. The cost per retained attender via ads can run high (mailers, boosts, design)—while a personal invitation’s cost is near zero and comes with built-in hospitality. If 12% of your people invite one person per quarter and half of the invitees show up, that’s a 6% quarterly lift in first-time guests before a single ad dollar is spent. If 30% of those guests connect into groups or serve via relational bridges, you’ve just shifted the growth curve … with trust, not spend. 4 Outreach Myths Draining Your Momentum Confusing visibility with persuasion. // More impressions don’t equal more impact. Awareness is necessary, insufficient, and expensive. You can buy reach, but you can’t buy trust. People don’t show up because they saw your ad; they show up because someone they know invited them. If your communications strategy ends at visibility, it’s just brand maintenance, not mission advancement. Shift budget and attention toward equipping inviters. Measure personal outreach, not post reach. Centralizing evangelism to staff. // When outreach becomes a department, the body atrophies. Staff-led evangelism looks efficient on a spreadsheet but weak in real life. And again … marketing feels safer. You can spend money, schedule posts, and avoid people. Stop that. The early church didn’t hire a marketing firm; it mobilized a movement. Make every role invitational. Train parking teams, kids’ volunteers, and greeters to ask, “Who could you bring next week?” Equip small group leaders to model invitation as part of discipleship. The job of the staff is to create inviters, not do the inviting for them. Under-funding hospitality. // People won’t risk relational capital if they don’t trust that guests will feel welcome. If an attendee at your church isn’t confident that their friend will have a great experience, they’ll never send the invite. Confusing signage, awkward kids’ check-in, or “guess which door is the main entrance” kills momentum. Audit your Sunday experience like a first timer. Fix friction points before you ask people to invite. Hospitality isn’t a side ministry … it’s your front door. If you want more invites, fund the experience members are proud to share. Only celebrating conversions. // Most churches platform the touchdown and ignore the drive that got them there. But people don’t start with conversions; they start with conversations. If you only celebrate salvations, you silently teach your people that the invite doesn’t matter unless it ends in a baptism. Celebrate courage, not just conversion. Tell the story of the invite text sent, the coworker who came, the “yes” that started a journey. Make inviting part of the discipleship story. When you normalize the attempt, you multiply the effort. The Budget Question Should you stop all advertising? Not necessarily. Paid media can prime the pump—but the conversion happens in the relationship. Ads can raise awareness; people create action. Here’s the uncomfortable math: Through decades of studies, personal invitations outperform advertising by an order of magnitude. The Institute for American Church Growth found that nearly 79% of first-time guests came because someone they knew invited them, while programs, ads, and special events accounted for single-digit percentages. [ref] Meanwhile, McKinsey estimates that 20–50% of all consumer decisions … in every sector .. are driven by word-of-mouth influence. [ref] That’s at least 10x more effective than most paid channels. So, if invitations are roughly 10x more powerful than marketing, then … logically … you should be investing 10x more in building an invite culture than investing in marketing and ads. That doesn’t mean kill your marketing budget. It means repurpose it. Your spending should follow your strategy: 1. Training (Staff & Systems) Most churches don’t have a marketing problem…they have a discipleship problem disguised as one. The job of your staff isn’t to post better; it’s to prompt better. Train your team to infuse invitation into every department: kids, worship, groups, and guest services. “How does this help people bring a friend?” should become a standing meeting question. That’s your new creative brief. Budget for leadership development, invite-culture workshops, and ongoing coaching that helps your staff stay focused on mobilizing inviters, not managing impressions. 2. Equipping (Tools for the Congregation) People want to invite; they just don’t know how. Make it stupidly easy. The most effective churches lower friction with shareable tools—physical and digital. Think: Branded invite cards with simple copy (“Sit with me this Sunday.”) Pre-built social graphics your people can post or text. A clean, mobile-first landing page with times, directions, kids’ info, and an RSVP option. Easy one-tap “share” buttons that let members tag a friend directly. Budget for creative production that serves your members as marketers, not your brand as a product. 3. Motivation (Stories That Stick) Vision leaks; motivation decays. You have to keep the invite story alive. Every Sunday, highlight someone who came because of a friend. Baptism stories? Trace them back to the first invitation. What gets celebrated gets repeated, and nothing reinforces culture like stories told in public. Budget for story capture…video, social posts, short stage moments. Hire a part-time storyteller before you buy another ad campaign. The gospel doesn’t spread through algorithms.It spreads through relationships. If your strategy is “buy attention,” you’ll keep paying rent to platforms. If your strategy is “build inviters,” you’ll own the asset … trust. The most persuasive message your city will hear about your church won’t come from your page. It’ll come from your people. Stop buying marketing

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Lucinda Ross, Central Group Leader of Communications at Life.Church, one of the most influential and innovative churches in the world. Since its founding in 1996, Life.Church has grown to more than 40 locations across the U.S. and a massive global online presence. Through initiatives like the Open Network and the YouVersion Bible App, Life.Church continues to equip millions of people and churches to engage with God’s Word every day. As Global Bible Month begins, Lucinda shares powerful insights on how churches can inspire daily Bible engagement, leverage digital tools like YouVersion to disciple people beyond Sunday, and help believers experience lasting transformation through God’s Word. Reaching everyone, everywhere, every day. // The heart behind YouVersion’s mission is summed up in three simple words—everyone, everywhere, every day. As the Bible App approaches one billion downloads, Lucinda emphasizes that the real win isn’t the number of installs—it’s the number of lives being transformed through consistent engagement with Scripture. The app is now opened more than one billion times every 39 days, and the past few weeks have seen some of the highest engagement rates ever recorded. Similarly, print Bible sales have increased, revealing a growing hunger for God’s word. The power of daily engagement. // Research from the Center for Bible Engagement demonstrates that people who interact with Scripture four or more days a week experience significant life change. This “power of four” effect leads to greater faith-sharing, reduced anxiety and loneliness, and freedom from destructive habits. Equipping churches to disciple digitally. // YouVersion Bible App was designed not only as a personal tool but as a resource for churches. Through YouVersion Connect, local churches can create a free digital home within the Bible App where members can find their church, access reading plans, and receive updates directly from their pastors. Churches can feature Bible plans connected to sermon series, post follow-up devotionals, and share key verses throughout the week. The app also provides anonymous engagement insights for church leaders—a “spiritual health dashboard” that helps pastors see what topics their people are exploring, how frequently they read Scripture, and how they can be better shepherded. Celebrating Global Bible Month. // November marks Global Bible Month, an opportunity for churches worldwide to celebrate the power of God’s Word. This year, YouVersion and several partner ministries are uniting to encourage believers to take the 30-Day Bible Challenge—a commitment to read the Bible every day for 30 days. Churches can sign up and access free resources at globalbiblemonth.com, including sermon outlines, social graphics, and curated 30-day reading plans. The goal is simple: to help people experience the difference that consistent engagement with Scripture can make. Technology as a tool for transformation. // Some critics argue that Bible engagement should happen only through printed Bibles, but Lucinda sees technology as an ally, not a replacement. YouVersion’s accessibility—through text, audio, or reading plans—makes it possible for people to engage with Scripture anywhere, at any time, in their preferred version or language. God’s Word is alive and active, and technology simply helps more people experience it. Expanding global reach. // As YouVersion grows, the team is investing in new ways to make the Bible accessible to everyone in their heart language. In addition to the main app, the Bible App Lite serves users in areas with low connectivity, while the Bible App for Kids helps children engage through story-based learning. YouVersion now offers over 3,600 Bible versions in 2,300 languages, with teams at global hubs in Africa, Latin America, Europe, and Australia ensuring content is contextualized for local cultures. To learn more about how your church can get started with YouVersion Connect, visit youversion.com/connect or explore free resources for Global Bible Month at globalbiblemonth.com Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don’t need more pressure—you need support. That’s why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn’t stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It’s like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super honored that you are listening in today and you’re going to be rewarded for this. You might not know it, but here in November is Global Bible Month. And I’m super honored to have—you know, you feel like you’re talking to a rock star, like somebody who’s at the center of something that’s pretty amazing that’s going on. Today’s one of those days, Lucinda Ross. She is a central group leader of communications at Life.Church.Rich Birch — If you have been sleeping under a rock and do not know Life.Church, they started 1996. And it’s grown to this incredibly diverse group of people meeting with cities all across the United States and around the world. They have, if I’m counting correctly, if I can count all the slots, 40 physical locations in several states in the U.S. and an incredibly robust online community. Life.Church has several resources and tools for growth, ah for really helping churches grow, including their Open Network for churches and the Bible app from YouVersion, which really seeks to put God’s word in the hands of everyone, every day, everywhere. And um man, they have just done amazing stuff. And Lucinda, I’m super glad, honored really, to have you on the show today. Thanks for being here.Lucinda Rojas Ross — Thanks so much, Rich. That was just a kind kind introduction. Just humbled and honored to play small part what God’s doing here.Rich Birch — Well, I appreciate you being humble, ah but like YouVersion has just had such a monster impact on so many people’s lives. And I’m really happy to celebrate it this month and to kind of dive deep a little bit, tell a little bit more about that.Rich Birch — But why don’t we kind of start before we jump in? um Tell us a little bit about your background. How did you get connected to this, this whole thing? And then I’d love to chat through what we’re talking about today.Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yeah. So I have had the honor of being on the Life.Church team for almost 13 years. So started out attending, never thought I would be in ministry. God had me in um corporate world and thought that that’s where my place was. And he had other plans for me. And so he’s used Life.Church to change my life, to draw me closer to him. And I’m just super honored that I get to play a part in it now. And so, and part of what I do as and the leader of communications at our church is I just get to tell stories. I get to do the fun part of just sharing what God is doing in our ministries like YouVersion.Rich Birch — Love it. So good. Well, Life.Church, man, has had just incredible impact and reach in both physical and digital realms. And God’s used it in so many ways. From your seat, from your perspective, what’s kind of driving that transformation? What is it that God’s using ah in the kind of Life.Church community to make such huge impact?Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yeah, there’s no denying that God’s hand is all over this every step of the way. And so one of the things that are one of our leaders, Bobby Grunewald says is it’s it’s all him and it’s all his. And so when you approach things with that kind of posture, it’s um it gives you just the obedience to take risks. Because you know that we can have the faith to believe that something incredible is possible on the other side.Lucinda Rojas Ross — And so seeing our leaders model that, um getting to play a part in that, where we are just going for it consistently thinking about, okay, what’s next? What does God have next? How, um if our vision truly is to reach people, everyone, everywhere, every day, it’s a vision of YouVersion, but also the mission of Life.Church is to lead people to become fully devoted followers of Christ.Lucinda Rojas Ross — If those are the things that we’re focused on, those are big. That three everys in the vision of YouVersion means we’ve always got work to do. That work will outlive us. And so um thinking about just taking risk, being obedient, and seeing where God has, where that momentum is, and just pouring fuel on that fire.Rich Birch — It’s so good. Well, you know, every pastor that’s listening in, ah you know, they want to see people be changed. They want to see people be transformed. They want, they they don’t, there’s this misnomer that, you know, pastors just want large crowds and they don’t really care whether transformation happens. That’s just not true. Lucinda Rojas Ross — Absolutely

Let’s start with a confession. I’ve misdiagnosed “dead” more times than I care to admit…more than a coroner in a zombie movie marathon. I have this bad habit of declaring the demise of trends that are, in fact, quietly entering their prime. I thought podcasts were “saturated” back in 2013 when I started the unSeminary podcast. Everyone and their cousin had one, and I thought I was arriving at the party too late. Yet, I couldn’t have been more wrong. Podcasting didn’t plateau… it exploded. It became mainstream. The biggest names in media…people who swore audio was finished…now build entire empires around long-form podcast conversations. Joe Rogan, The Daily, SmartLess…they didn’t just succeed; they defined a new era of attention. What I thought was a crowded space was actually an emerging medium. Then, there were QR codes. I mocked those little pixel boxes like a pro. I remember my friend Kenny using them years ago, and I laughed out loud. “No one’s going to pull out their phone to scan that,” I told him, dripping with confidence. Fast-forward to 2020, when every restaurant menu, conference check-in, and even church connect card required a QR code. They went from “gimmick” to “infrastructure” overnight. What I once dismissed as clunky, and dead became the universal bridge between the physical and digital worlds. And YouTube…don’t get me started. I was doing video podcasts and then 8 years ago I stopped because…I thought it was dead. I used to think YouTube was for cat videos and makeup tutorials, not serious long-form content. I said, “No one wants to watch a 30-minute video conversation on YouTube.” Yes,I said that. Out loud. Turns out, millions of people do. YouTube has become the world’s most dominant podcast player and arguably the most powerful storytelling platform of our time. The lines between podcast, video, and TV are gone. YouTube isn’t a side project anymore…it’s the main stage. Even books fooled me. I was convinced the Kindle was going to kill print. I believed we would all be reading on glass screens by now, that bookstores would become nostalgic museum pieces. Yet, print continues to outsell e-books. Year after year. There’s something about paper, the texture, the smell, the way you can hand a book to someone, that we’re just not ready to give up. The “dead” medium has more life than ever. And that’s why I roll my eyes when someone confidently declares that the “attractional church” is dead. I’ve heard it at conferences, read it in think pieces, seen it in hot-take clickbait reels: “People don’t want polished anymore.” “The attractional model doesn’t work.” “We’ve moved beyond that.” No, we haven’t. Attractional church isn’t dead; it was absorbed into “normal church” …and the churches that win in 2025 are the ones that treat invitation as culture, not campaign, and pair it with clear next steps into community and discipleship. Things don’t die; they normalize. They get woven into the fabric. So it is with the attractional church. Your Church Doesn’t Need Another Idea—It Needs a Plan Most churches want to grow but feel stuck doing more without seeing results. Join Rich Birch for a free 60-minute workshop that gives you a simple, proven way to reignite momentum and see more people connected to your church. You’ll walk away with a clear 90-day growth plan you can actually implement—no extra staff or budget required. Wednesday, November 12th at 12noon ET / 9am PT Free online training for pastors and church leaders who want real results. Save My Seat What used to be “attractional” is now baseline Once upon a time, these were edgy moves. Now they’re table stakes: Music people actually love. Not as a stunt, but as contextualized worship that lowers barriers for guests. Teaching that connects to everyday life. Felt-need series, biblical clarity, concrete application, this is just effective preaching. Buildings (and lobbies) designed with outsiders in mind. Wayfinding, hospitality, kids’ environments that kids beg to come back to. The point isn’t flash, it’s hospitality. You don’t get extra credit for clean bathrooms, clear signage, and songs that don’t sound like 1998. That’s the bar, taken seriously by newcomers. Call it attractive if you like; I call it normal. Follow the data, not the hot takes Big days still work. Easter and Christmas remain the largest attendance days in most churches. Many are doubling down on specific “Invite a Friend” Sundays, now embraced by roughly one in five churches…up from a decade ago. Crowds gather when we give them a clear reason and an easy on-ramp. [ref] Invitation remains the #1 front door. Most churchgoers are inviting friends. In recent surveys, three in five Protestants had invited someone in the last six months, and among the unchurched, a friend’s invite remains the most compelling catalyst to attend. The channel is person-to-person. Always has been. [ref] Growing churches train, equip & motivate their people to invite friends. Research on large, fast-growing congregations shows a straight-line relationship: the faster the growth, the more their people invite…and the stronger their pathways for incorporation (groups, serving, classes). Attractional momentum plus discipleship scaffolding. [ref] Multiplication correlates with evangelism. Multisite and church-planting churches report higher conversion rates than peer churches. New campuses = new “front doors” + fresh invite energy. [ref] It’s not just attractional, it’s transformational. It’s attractional plus biblical literacy that roots people in the truth of Jesus and his teaching. It’s attractional plus gospel-centered teaching that changes hearts and launches new lives. It’s attractional plus the active work of the Holy Spirit providing an accessible encounter with God. Together, that’s what makes the prevailing churches magnetic and mature. Church’s Leading the “New Attractional” Movement Church of the Highlands (AL): “At the Movies” remains a massive newcomer on-ramp, and they report thousands of decisions for Christ tied to that series—because the creativity is welded to clear gospel invitations and next steps. Journey Church (FL): Practical, invite-worthy series + multiple services aimed at families = sustained growth; it’s invitation culture in action. City Church (IN): Arena Easters, historic-theatre Christmases, neighborhood ministry = attractional and local, leading to conversions and baptisms. Embrace (SD), Union (MD), Crosspoint City (GA), First Orlando (FL): VIP guest processes, youth-led momentum, “Harvest Sunday,” language-specific services—different riffs on the same melody: make it easy to invite, then move guests swiftly into groups and serving. None of these churches are “all show.” They are disciplined about next steps. That’s the quiet variable the think-pieces miss. What actually died? What died is the idea that you can run a slick weekend and call it discipleship. The vibe-only era is over. That’s good news. In 2007, Willow Creek (is it safe to mention them?) dropped a bombshell study called Reveal: Where Are You? … a data-driven autopsy of its own ministry model. The results? Attendance and program engagement weren’t producing mature disciples. Cue the headlines: “The Seeker Church Repents.” The hot-take crowd declared the attractional model dead. But that’s not what happened. Reveal wasn’t a eulogy…it was an evolution. Willow realized crowds aren’t the same as change. They didn’t scrap weekend experiences; they added spiritual coaching, personal disciplines, and next-step systems. In other words, they didn’t kill the attractional church, they deepened it. Nearly two decades after that study, the lesson stands: the problem wasn’t being attractional; it was being only attractional. The weekend is still the front door, but now the smartest churches obsess equally over what happens next. The critique that was supposed to bury the model ended up refining it. Like most “deaths” we announce in the church world, this one was just a metamorphosis. Attractional didn’t die…it grew up. The enduring pattern with prevailing churches today looks like this: 1) Warm invite → 2) Excellent weekend (clear gospel, real people, real stories) → 3) Fast follow-up (text within hours, personal touch within days) → 4) Concrete next steps (groups, serve, classes) → 5) Multiplication (invite others, launch campuses, tell the story). When leaders say, “attractional is dead,” what they’re often reacting to is an empty, 2006 playbook…production without a pathway. That model is dead. Good riddance. But attractional as hospitality? As to lower friction for outsiders? As architecting moments that catalyze invitation? These are not dead; they’re disciple-making foundations. The Playbook: Normalize invitation, then engineer integration 1) Make invitation a year-round sport. Cadence: Anchor the year with a few clear invite moments (Easter, Fall launch, Christmas), but create smaller, monthly on-ramps (kickoff Sundays, “You Asked for It,” testimony weekends). Training: Give a 3-minute “how to invite” moment quarterly. Provide scripts and shareable digital invites. Celebrate stories, weekly. Assume people want to invite; remove the social friction. 2) Design for first-timers without dumbing down. Wayfinding & welcome: Parking → doors → kids check-in → seating. Test it with a mystery guest every quarter. Message design: Preach the text; show the bridge. Put handles on doctrine—what it changes on Monday. Music & moments: Choose songs that the room can sing. Test keys and tempos with real people, not just your band. 3) Build a two-week guest journey (from start to joining a small group). Day 0 (Sunday PM): Text: “Thanks for coming, here’s one helpful next step.” Day 2: Personal email/vid

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Luke Cornwell, Communications Pastor at Realife Church in Indiana. Founded in 2007, Realife has grown into one of the fastest-growing churches in America with two thriving campuses, a STEAM Academy for preschoolers, and a partnership with Southeastern University. Luke brings a unique blend of strategic communications and pastoral care, helping Realife stay aligned, relational, and mission-focused as it grows. Is your church struggling to keep everyone on the same page as you scale? Luke shares how Realife Church builds clarity, connection, and communication systems that foster alignment and strengthen relationships in a fast-growing, multi-campus environment. Scaling communication as your church grows. // When Luke joined Realife three and a half years ago, the church had 15 staff members. Now that number has more than doubled, and the need for clear communication has become critical. As the church prepared to launch its second campus, they realized the importance of everyone “speaking the same language.” Luke explains that while systems matter, relationships must remain central. Realife intentionally invests in both structured communication and personal connection to keep unity strong. Tools that simplify communication. // Internally, Realife relies heavily on Slack—not email or text—for 95% of staff communication. Slack channels allow focused, real-time collaboration across teams while reducing clutter and missed messages. Email is reserved for non-urgent updates, while Slack is for action and discussion. This separation helps the team stay responsive and organized as the church grows. Leading with relationships, not control. // Luke emphasizes that communications teams can’t function as “brand police.” Instead of saying no, Realife’s communications team focuses on collaboration and clarity. They regularly check in with the lead pastor and executive leaders to ensure alignment before major changes or campaigns. The key is keeping leadership informed, not blindsided. When communication is proactive and relational, trust grows and silos shrink. Excellence defined by stewardship. // Realife defines excellence not as perfection, but as doing what you can with what you have. The communications team works hard to balance production demands with spiritual priorities, asking God to bless their efforts. Excellence means faithful stewardship and surrendering outcomes to God. Strategy over noise. // In an age of constant distraction, Luke urges churches to communicate strategically rather than reactively. Realife maintains clear “lanes” for communication. For example, text messages are used for personal contact while emails are for reminders and responses. The church limits communication frequency and ensures each message adds real value. Knowing your audience. // Realife uses tools like Community Church Builder (CCB) and Nurture to understand their congregation, track engagement, and identify people at risk of disengagement. Their volunteer team includes captains who care personally for others, ensuring no one falls through the cracks. This data-informed, relationship-driven approach helps the church shepherd people well—even as attendance multiplies. Discipling between Sundays. // For Luke, communication isn’t just about promotion—it’s about discipleship. His team’s goal is to “disciple people between Sundays” by creating content that reminds, inspires, and challenges people to grow in their faith. From social media to email, every message aims to connect people with opportunities to take next steps toward Jesus. To learn more about Realife Church, visit realifechurch.org (that’s Realife with one “L”) or email Luke directly. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, Rich here from the unSeminary podcast. Pumped to have you listening today. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. We’ve got a communications expert on the phone, on the call. And you know that communications is critically important for your church as you try to gain alignment and clarity with your people and ah move the mission forward. ah Today, we’re talking to Luke Cornwell. He serves as a communication pastor at Realife Church, which was founded in 2007. It’s one of the fastest growing ah churches in the country. And if I’m counting correctly, they’ve got two campuses in Indiana. They exist to create a place where Uh, people love, so they will experience a loving God and something that really for the entire family.Rich Birch — They, they include they, sorry, I’m stumbling. I’m talking to communications guy and I can’t talk straight today! What’s happening?!Luke Cornwell — We all we all have that problem.Rich Birch — They’ve got Realife STEM Academy for pre-K age and under and a partnership with Southeastern University. This is a fantastic church. Luke, welcome to the show.Luke Cornwell — Yeah. Thank you for having me. This is a privilege.Rich Birch — This is going to be good. Realife is one of the fastest growing churches in the country, as we said. For leaders who may not know the story, kind of know about the church, can you give us a snapshot of Realife? Tell us a little bit about that and tell us about your role as communications pastor. What does that cover?Luke Cornwell — Absolutely. So, ah Realife Church started in 2007, like you mentioned. And, um you know, it was a slow start. Everybody has this dream that, you know, out of the, but you know, out of the gates, your your your church is just going to grow.Luke Cornwell — And it took some time. And Pastor Adam and Kristen, our lead pastors, um founded it 18, 19 years ago. And you know, it took years to grow um to the point where it’s like, yeah, this is a a church. You know, we feel like a church. It’s it’s it’s not a constant grind. Luke Cornwell — And um it really wasn’t until um about 2018 that, you know, numbers aren’t everything, but they give you a metric, right? You know, numbers aren’t everything, but it wasn’t until about 2018 where they started to cross over the 5- to 700 mark, which is a really good size church.Rich Birch — Yep, yep.Luke Cornwell — And, you know, it took that’s that’s like, you know, that’s 11 years. Rich Birch — Right.Luke Cornwell — And so since then, um it is just catapulted in both number and impact in the community. And this year we are averaging more than we ever have on our weekend services. This February, we launched our second campus. So our primary campus is in New Palestine, and our second campus is in Greenfield. And this last week, we are so we have 500 people attend our second campus nine months in.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing. That’s huge.Luke Cornwell — So this is nothing that we’ve done. It is all God and God. We’re excited for what he has for us in the future.Rich Birch — Nice. Well, I’m looking forward to learning from what God’s doing in your midst and… Luke Cornwell — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and particularly around this communication stuff.Luke Cornwell — Yeah.Rich Birch — It’s so critically important. And, you know, one of the downsides, people like the idea of being inside a quick, fast growing church, but it’s like it’s difficult having lived in that space. And communication complexity is really one of the the and problems that we deal with.Luke Cornwell — Yeah.Rich Birch — Particularly as a church’s growth accelerates, it’s like, man, there’s a lot to pull together. What challenges have you run into as the church has been growing or that you’ve seen other churches ah that are you know making sure that everybody knows what’s going on? Luke Cornwell — Yeah.Rich Birch — What have been some of the complexities of growing quickly from a communication point of view? Luke Cornwell — So when I started three and a half years ago as the communications pastor for Realife Church, we had about 15 full-time employees, full-time staff members. And we were just starting the STEAM Academy that you mentioned earlier.Luke Cornwell — Now we’ve more than doubled that. So one of the first things that we recognized is just our internal communications was just in dire need of tightening up. And so as we prepared to launch this campus, we had to make sure that we were all speaking the same language, that we were you know all working towards same goals.Luke Cornwell — And this is not to say that we weren’t before. We had a really tight knit group of staff. But as we grew in staff numbers and weekend numbers, we realized that we had to be on the same page, even more so. You know when you’ve got 10 or 15, it’s really easy to get into a room… Rich Birch — Right. Luke Cornwell — …and to just talk things out. But when you’re at 30, 35, where we’re at now, like it’s hard, like it’s a it’s a large group conversation. It’s no longer a small group.Luke Cornwell — And so there are have been a few things that we’ve had to do. We’ve had to change the makeup of um of our teams. We’ve had to have smaller meetings and then larger meetings. And we’ve had to prioritize just making sure that we ah keep our relationships strong through all of that noise. Because, you know, we all know systems are great. But it’s all about the people. And it’s all about relationships ah within those systems.Rich Birch — Well, I want to come back to the relationship piece in a second, because I think that’s critically important. But talk me

In 8th grade, I thought I was unstoppable. A growth spurt gave me height, leverage, and what felt like destiny. I could clear high jump bars with a scissors kick while others struggled. No training, no technique, just raw advantage. I beat everyone in my school, made it to my town’s track and field meet, and placed well. I was on top of the high jump world. (Albeit it was a very small world!) In my freshman year of high school, I was toast. Everyone else had learned the Fosbury Flop…the backward roll that revolutionized high jumping. My height advantage evaporated. Suddenly, I couldn’t clear the same bars, and I didn’t even make the varsity team. Lesson learned: Growth can make you lazy. It can trick you into thinking you’re great when you’re just tall. Churches fall into the same trap. Growth feels like validation: more people, more buzz, more money. However, growth can be toxic if it masks underlying weaknesses. It’s a sugar high that makes leaders feel invincible when, in reality, they’re just riding momentum. The hard truth: the very growth you’re celebrating may be setting you up for decline. Let’s break it down. Five areas where unchecked growth quietly kills future growth: First-Time Guest Capture Rate New Donor Retention Gap Follow-Up Speed to First Touch Kids/Students Capacity Ratio Staffing Leverage 1. First-Time Guest Capture Rate: Growth Without Names = Decline in Disguise If you don’t know who your guests are, they don’t exist. Churches celebrate attendance spikes but often fail at the most basic task: capturing guest info. Here’s the brutal math: in many churches, only 3 out of 10 first-time guests fill out a connect card or text-in form. That means, 70% leave without a trace. Imagine running a restaurant that never records who dines there. That’s not strategy…it’s negligence. [ref] Unchecked growth hides failure. When 100 people show up, you don’t feel the loss of the 70 who disappear. But fast-forward six months: you’ll plateau, scratching your head about why your “record Sundays” aren’t leading to real growth. If your church is growing, you should see new visitors each week—roughly 2% of your average attendance. If your attendance is 1,000, that means week in and week out, you are averaging 20 guests that you could contact, follow up with, and invite to be a part of your community. If you don’t see this regularly, you are missing guests. Without this new guest information, you are just gathering a crowd that you won’t be able to move towards deeper community and connection. Your growth will plateau and slide into decline. You will be left wondering where all the people went. Audit your capture rate for the last three months. Not an estimate, an actual number. Set a benchmark goal: at least 2% of every single week should be first-time guests that you can contact. Create frictionless ways to respond: text-in, QR codes, digital follow-up. Use an “ethical bribe” …a gift that makes people want to give you their info. Assign accountability: one staff member or volunteer owns the process every week. Catch their contact information. No contact information, no long-term growth. 2. New Donor Retention Gap: The Revolving Door of Giving Every pastor gets excited about first-time givers, but most of those givers will never give again. In the nonprofit world, donor retention hovers around 20%. This means, 8 out of 10 first-time donors vanish. [ref] For churches, the numbers aren’t much better. Do you know your church’s donor retention rate? But even more pointedly, do you know the retention rate of new donors to your church? If the gap between these continues to grow, your church will run out of money, and your growth will stumble. Many churches have a core of faithful, long-term donors (that’s why the church around the corner from your place, with just a few people left, hasn’t died), but it takes more intentional effort to onboard new donors to fuel the future of the mission. Growth masks this churn because new people continually replenish the bucket. But it’s a leaky bucket. Giving totals may rise, but the base is fragile. When momentum slows…or the economy dips…you’ll discover you’ve been funding ministry with one-night stands, not long-term partners. Track your first-to-second gift rate. If 100 people give for the first time this year, how many give again within 90 days? Build a 48-hour thank-you system: no generic receipts—only personal thanks, handwritten notes, and phone calls. Report impact. Show donors what their gift did…student camp funded, families served, baptisms celebrated. Push recurring giving. Monthly donors have retention rates above 80%. One-time donors: below 20%. The math is obvious. Treat new donors like seedlings—early care determines long-term fruit. Generosity follows gratitude. When people don’t feel valued, their support dries up fast. 3. Follow-Up Speed to First Touch: Delay = Decay In our world, speed is the new currency. Amazon ships in 24 hours and Uber arrives in five minutes. If your church waits a week to follow up with guests, you’ve already lost them. Here’s the reality: follow up within 24 hours, and your chance of a second visit can be five times higher than if you wait a week. Five. Times. Higher. [ref] Growth hides this problem because guests keep coming. But look at your second-visit rate: it’s probably abysmal. People don’t return because they never heard from you. For years, I’ve said to campus pastors at new campuses to grab the “new here” cards before they are whisked away to a central team member to enter them into a database. Take pictures of each one. Then, on Sunday night, call each of those “new here” guests. Yes, Sunday evening. Too many churches are too scared to show some passion in the follow-up process. I bet that my dentist has more urgency in ensuring that I book my next plaque removal than your church does in inviting guests to return. Let’s change that. Secret shop your own church: fill out a card, see how long it takes to hear back. Benchmark goal: 100% of first-time guests contacted within 24 hours. Build a system: Handwritten note written on Sunday by volunteers, Sunday afternoon text by campus pastor, Monday morning email from the church, Monday night phone call from a member of the team. Train volunteers to share the load; don’t leave it to one overworked staff member. Measure weekly: how many cards came in, how many were contacted, and when? Slow follow-up is the silent killer of momentum. If you can’t respond fast, stop bragging about being “a friendly church.” 4. Kids/Students Capacity Ratio: The Family Filter Healthy churches consistently see 20–30% of attendance made up of kids and students [ref]. That ratio isn’t just a nice-to-have; it’s the single strongest indicator of long-term health. Below 20%? You’re drawing adults but not reaching families. And without families, you don’t have a future. You can celebrate growth today…more adults in seats, a buzzing lobby…but if kids aren’t in the mix, you’re quietly aging out. A church that trends older without bringing in the next generation is on a countdown clock. Parents may love the preaching, music, and atmosphere, but if their kids aren’t excited to come back, the family will drift. Flip it around: when kids are thriving, families stick. Kids aren’t just a ministry; they’re your best retention strategy. What percentage of your weekly attendance is under 18? Don’t guess—track it. Aim for 20–30%. Below 20% = families slipping through. Above 30% = maxed capacity. Compare the ratio year over year. Stable or growing = future. Shrinking = slow death. Listen to leavers. Ask why families bail. Nine times out of ten, it’s the kids’ experience. Put money where it matters. Staff, space, and resources for next-gen aren’t side projects…they’re the core to the mission. Tell the wins. Tell real stories of life change happening in your kids and student ministries. That’s what builds confidence in the future. Ignore kids and you’re not just losing families—you’re scheduling your church’s funeral. 5. Staffing Leverage: Stop Hiring Doers, Start Hiring Leaders In small churches, staff do ministry. In large churches, staff equip people to engage in ministry. Fail to make that shift, and you’ll drown. Here’s the metric: average churches run about 75 attendees per full-time staff. High-performing churches run 100:1 or more. If you’re at 40:1, you’re bloated. [ref] Growth often hides inefficiency because staff are hustling to keep everything together. But payrolls balloon, volunteers disengage, and eventually the model collapses. You can’t hire your way to 10,000. You must mobilize. This isn’t just organizational efficiency, it’s obedience. Ephesians 4 reminds us that pastors, teachers, and leaders exist “to equip the saints for the work of ministry.” [ref] The goal isn’t to create a staff of superheroes who do everything; it’s to raise up a church full of ministers. An insidiously dangerous pattern is when staff start absorbing work that used to be led by volunteers. That’s not progress…it’s regression. It appears that they are helping, but that behavior hinders the church’s development. The flow should run the other way: what staff carry today should eventually be released to volunteers tomorrow. If you see staff pulling ministry back from lay leaders, they’re not empowering the church…they’re shrinking it. Audit your ratio: total weekly attendance divided by full-time staff equivalents. Measure volunteer engagement: what percentage of adults serve regularly? Redefine job descriptions around multiplication, not execution. Hire leaders who can build teams, not just talented doers. Launch a leadership pipeline: train, empower, and release lay leaders into real authority. Staff who insist on doing e

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Eric Garza, Executive Pastor at Cross Church in Texas. Founded in 1995, Cross Church has grown into one of the fastest-growing churches in America, with 12 campuses across the Rio Grande Valley and beyond. With a unique focus on bilingual ministry, Cross Church is pioneering new models of multisite ministry in a predominantly Hispanic region. Is your church wondering how to expand across languages, cultures, or campuses? Eric shares how Cross Church has embraced a centralized, bilingual multisite strategy that unites excellence with contextual flexibility. From one campus to twelve. // In just over seven years, Cross Church expanded from its original location to 12 campuses. Seven campuses operate in English and five in Spanish, often sharing the same physical site. The church’s regional strategy ensures that within 20–30 minutes anywhere in the Rio Grande Valley, people can access a Cross Church service. Bilingual by design. // Recognizing the area’s demographics, Cross Church offers identical ministry in both English and Spanish. Worship services follow the same structure, prayer is offered in both languages, and even discipleship classes are recorded and taught in both English and Spanish. Children’s ministry and Next Gen programming is primarily in English due to generational language preferences, but bilingual leaders ensure Spanish-speaking kids are fully included. This high bar of excellence across languages makes Cross Church one of the largest bilingual multisite ministries in the U.S. Centralized systems, local flexibility. // Cross Church operates with a centralized model. Ministries like Cross Kids, worship, first impressions, and discipleship are standardized across all campuses, ensuring consistency in branding, curriculum, and training. Campuses then have freedom to contextualize through local outreach, such as citywide prayer walks or community celebrations. This balance allows Cross Church to maintain quality while adapting to the unique needs of each community. Unity across languages. // In locations where English and Spanish congregations share a facility and pastors work together closely. They attend each other’s services, providing a pastoral presence, and ensure smooth transitions between the 10 a.m. English service and 12 p.m. Spanish service. This intentional collaboration prevents silos and reinforces unity across language lines. Discipleship through teams. // Instead of small groups, Cross Church emphasizes serve teams as the primary environment for discipleship and connection. With large percentages of members serving, teams become relational communities where people feel connected in a big church. Midweek discipleship classes, offered in both languages, supplement these teams with biblical teaching and spiritual formation. Launching new services. // When considering a new service, Cross Church follows a deliberate process: surveying leaders and congregants, canvassing communities, starting with worship nights, building leadership teams, and branding months in advance. They also watch practical metrics—such as when a sanctuary hits 70% capacity or when kids’ spaces overflow—before launching. And above all, they pray to discern if the timing is from God, not just a good idea. Looking ahead. // Cross Church continues to expand, preparing for new campuses beyond South Texas. They’ve also launched the 360 Global Network to share resources and lessons with other pastors and leaders, equipping churches to navigate growth, multisite challenges, and bilingual ministry in an increasingly multicultural America. To learn more about Cross Church, visit crosschurchonline.com or follow @crosschurchrgv. You can also connect with Eric directly at @ericpgarza and explore resources at 360global.network Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don’t need more pressure—you need support. That’s why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn’t stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It’s like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, Rich here from the unSeminary podcast. Honored that you would tune in and listen today. Excited for this conversation. ah Literally this week, I had two conversations around what we’re talking about today with people ah who are wrestling with these issues. And I’m sure that many of you are wrestling with these as well. Honored to have another executive pastor. We love executive pastors at unSeminary.Rich Birch — We’ve got Eric Garza. He is the executive pastor at Cross Church. They were founded in 1995. They’re located in Texas and is one of the fastest growing churches in the the country. I think they’ve got 12 campuses, if I’m counting correctly, which is incredible. Cross Church is in a predominantly Hispanic area and and is likely has one of the largest bilingual ministries in the country. Eric, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Eric Garza — Rich, thanks for the opportunity. Happy to be with you and happy to have this conversation.Rich Birch — Wow, this is great. So obviously you guys have experienced incredible growth… Eric Garza — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and, um you know, amazing things going on there. Why don’t you kind of unpack the story a little bit? Tell us a little bit about what the ministry looks like today and then about your role of executive pastor of campuses specifically. I know that kind of looks different in all you every church, but tell us, talk us through that.Eric Garza — Yeah.Eric Garza — Yeah, well, you said it. 1995, almost 31 years ago, the church started. Senior pastors, Jaime and Rosemary Loya here in deep South Texas. So for context, ah we’re about 20 minutes north of the border with Mexico. Rich Birch — Wow. Okay.Eric Garza — So right on the bottom, ah deep South Texas, right on the tip of Texas. And so our our demographic is predominantly Hispanic, Latino.Eric Garza — And we’re in a part of the country um that sometimes we’re we’re the last to receive news or information, although that’s changed recently with ah SpaceX here in the region and LNG and just a lot of economic growth.Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah, that’s good.Eric Garza — Our church over the last, I would say five years, um we went from, well, let me backtrack. 2018 this way, we went from one location to now 12 locations.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s huge.Eric Garza — So it’s been about a little over seven years where we went from one site where we had in San Benito, our main campus, our original location, and then expanded to the upper part of the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, then to the southern part of the valley. And then now, even in San Antonio, our first campus out of our our region.Eric Garza — So we got ah seven English campuses and five Spanish campuses. And so it’s been a challenging, it’s beena challenging season, but it’s been a very rewarding season. And God has just enabled us to really break the mold of what local ministry looks like here in our region and expand beyond one site to multiple sites. And in the last, Rich, in the last 18 to 20 months, we’ve doubled in size as an organization. Rich Birch — Wow, that’s amazing. Eric Garza — And so that’s why Outreach Magazine, I believe this is the third or fourth time ah in recent years, have recognized it as one of the fastest growing churches in the country. And we’re just really blessed by that.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Give us a sense of the the distance between those 12, like from the original location to the farthest. How does all that, what’s that look like?Eric Garza — So right now in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, within 20 to 30 minutes, you can be at a Cross Church location. Rich Birch — Okay, that’s cool.Eric Garza — So our our first campus was in the upper valley in the Mission area. That’s about a 35 minute drive from our original location. And then the other locations ah from our original site, they’re about 25 minutes or so, ah no more than half an hour.Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah, that’s great.Eric Garza — So that’s why we say anywhere in the Rio Grande valley within 30 minutes ah max, you can be at a Cross Church location for for service.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love…Eric Garza — Yeah.Rich Birch — I love that. You know, one of the things that we’ve seen about multisite is even to the way you’re talking about it there, you know, it really is a regional strategy. It’s like, hHey, we’re trying to reach the Rio Grande Valley. Eric Garza — Yeah.Rich Birch — This is a, you know, is a particular cultural ah milieu. It’s an area it’s like people are, you know, have a lot in common and I love that you’re, you’ve saturated that area. Well, multisite ministry looks different from in every context, you know, like multisite, there’s like a n

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Dr. Warren Bird—author, researcher, and one of the most trusted voices in church leadership studies. Warren has co-authored over 35 books for pastors and church leaders, including Hero Maker, Better Together, Next, Resilience Factor, and his newest, Becoming a Future-Ready Church. Known for his deep data-driven insights, Warren has spent decades researching trends that shape healthy, growing churches. What’s next for large churches in North America—and how are they shaping the future of ministry? How are they adapting after the pandemic? Are they thriving, struggling, or transforming in unexpected ways? Warren shares early findings from his newest national research study—The Large Church Survey 2025—which explores how churches of 1,000 or more are changing and what’s coming next for the future of the church. Exploring large church health. // Large churches have reshaped the landscape of ministry over the last fifty years. Yet following the pandemic, questions have emerged: Have they fully come back? Are they still growing disciples—or just attracting crowds? Warren’s latest study, available at bit.ly/largechurch2025, is designed to answer those questions by gathering data from churches with 1,000+ in-person attendance. The goal is to measure growth, transparency, discipleship, and community impact in a post-pandemic world. Cultural distrust of institutions. // Warren notes that many people today are skeptical of large organizations, including churches. Scandals, media coverage, and declining trust in institutions have fueled the perception that “big” means “impersonal” or “unaccountable.” Yet Warren argues that healthy large churches can be powerful forces for good—offering specialized ministries such as special needs programs, counseling centers, and community partnerships that smaller churches often can’t sustain. Early findings: community and young adults. // Although data collection is still underway, some surprising trends are already emerging. The second-highest area of growth since the pandemic has been churches’ service and impact on their local communities. Large churches are not retreating—they’re doubling down on outreach. Even more encouraging, the top area of growth is the spiritual response among young adults. Despite common myths, many large churches are seeing renewed engagement from people in their 20s and 30s who are hungry for spiritual depth and authentic community. The power of small groups. // One consistent trend across every five-year survey Warren has conducted since 2000 is the growing emphasis on small groups and teams. In the most recent data, 92% of churches give their highest priority to small groups as essential for discipleship and connection. Warren summarizes the insight simply: “You get bigger by getting smaller.” Large churches thrive when they help people move from rows to circles—building relational environments where faith grows deeper. Raising leaders from within. // Another major finding centers on leadership development. Among churches of 5,000 and larger, 92% report having a residency, internship, or formal leadership training program. The median number of participants per church is 15. This suggests that future pastors, missionaries, and ministry leaders are increasingly being raised up inside the local church rather than emerging solely from seminaries. Warren calls this a promising trend that could strengthen the next generation of church leadership. Comeback stories. // The data also reveals a surprising recovery among large churches. So far, 53% of churches with attendance over 2,000 report being at least 10% larger today than they were in 2019. Some have even doubled or tripled in size. At the same time, a smaller group continues to struggle to regain momentum—creating what Warren describes as a “K-shaped recovery” across the church landscape. These insights will help leaders benchmark where their church stands and how to plan for the future. A younger generation of leaders. // Contrary to the myth that megachurches are a baby boomer phenomenon, early data shows that the average senior pastor age has actually declined since the last survey. Many fast-growing churches are being led by a younger generation of pastors—some who planted their congregations and others who revitalized long-standing churches. To participate in the Large Church Survey 2025 and receive the full results, visit bit.ly/largechurch2025. The survey takes about 20 minutes and is open until November 11, 2025. For more on Warren’s work, follow him on LinkedIn or explore his latest book Becoming a Future-Ready Church to stay ahead of emerging ministry trends. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at Risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We are honored to have a guest with us, Dr. Warren Bird today, who, what can I say about Warren Bird? He has co-authored 35 books for church leaders, but it’s more that, not that he’s just written a bunch of books. These are a number of the books that from my perspective are like the go-tos on their topic.Rich Birch — Hero Maker on leadership development, Better Together on healthy mergers, Next on pastoral succession, ah Resilience Factor on effective leadership teams. And his latest is incredible: Becoming a Future-Ready Church on these eight emerging church trends. He’s not only an author but he’s also a researcher and the work that he produces, I think, is among the best that’s out there. His background is a pastor, seminary professor. He was a research director at Leadership Network and was the executive vice president of research at ECFA, the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.Rich Birch — Warren, I am so glad to have you here. He’s also, one of the distinctions Warren has is he’s one of the few people that I’ve said, anytime you want to come on the podcast, you come on, we’ll make space. And so he reached out. Happy to have Warren on. Welcome. So glad you’re here.Warren Bird — Wow, Rich, you just rattled all that off. It’s like my life story. I could do that for you because you are so articulate and and the impact you’ve had on me. I listen to your podcast very regularly. The consulting insights when I you and I are sharing a speaking platform and all. So I could have done the same thing for you, but thank you for having me.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s kind of you. That’s kind of you to say that. And today we’re talking, you’re in the midst of one of the things I love about Warren, and and you might know this if you bump into him at a conference, he’s always working on some project. And he’s always wants to pick your brain about, Hey, like I’m working on this thing, got this thing coming up. And we were at a conference recently and he was talking about his latest research project. And so why don’t you talk to us about the study that you’re currently engaged in? Rich Birch — And friends, I want you to stay tuned because we’re going I’m going to try to pull some early results out of Warren. This is the first place that some of these results have been talked about. So you’re getting an exclusive here, which is great, or a first because you’re listening in today. But what is this study that you’re working on?Warren Bird — So Rich, the world of large churches—let’s let’s just say in-person attendance of a thousand and higher—you know, that was a big change in the face of the North American, actually the global church, the rise of the large church in the last 50 or so years. But now we’ve had the pandemic where large churches were hit the hardest, unless you were in like Florida or Texas, where they didn’t even participate in the pandemic. But the rest of us got hit hard.Rich Birch — Yes.Warren Bird — And and the question is, have they come back? And if they’ve come back, are they different? And then there’s that growing skepticism of, well, are big churches actually an asset or a liability? To what extent do they actually make their communities better? To what extent are they really healthy and vital versus, you know, are, are they an inch deep and a mile wide?Warren Bird — What’s the level of financial transparency? I mean,

Early in our marriage, rent ate half our income.At the end of one of our first months living together, we had $35 total left for a week’s worth of groceries.Christine was stressed. (Totally understandable.) I started building a compelling, highly spiritual case for “maybe we skip giving this month.” Christine cut through my rationalization with five words: “Of course we are tithing.” That moment kick-started a lifelong journey into generosity. And here’s the honest headline: we’ve received more through generosity than we ever imagined we’d “lose” by giving. So no, money isn’t some awkward side topic we avoid like a seventh-grade sex talk. It’s discipleship, it’s spiritual formation, and the way you handle it matters. Bad money preaching feels like a timeshare pitch; good money teaching changes lives. Why Teaching on Generosity Matters (Right Now) The Bible won’t be quiet about money. There are somewhere around 2,350 verses on money, wealth, and possessions—far more than many other themes. The precise number depends on how you classify passages, but the sheer volume is the point. [ref] Jesus talked about money a lot. Depending on methodology, many analysts count 16 of 38 parables touching on money/possessions. The exact ratio is debated, but the broader truth stands: money saturated his teaching because it reveals our hearts. [ref] Culture is catechizing your people already. U.S. household debt hit $18.39T in Q2 2025; credit card and auto balances keep inching up. Translation: Your congregation is being discipled by debt, fees, and friction. If the church won’t preach a better story, Visa will. [ref] Teaching influences behavior. Barna’s recent work highlights a “virtuous cycle”; people who experience generosity are more likely to practice generosity. Teaching that pairs theology with tangible experiences catalyzes that cycle. And yet many churches go quiet. A recent poll found about a quarter of churches don’t teach on generosity at all. Silence is also a sermon; it just lets culture preach. If you’re not talking about money, Amazon, Amex, and Apple are happy to. If you won’t preach discipleship of dollars, Prime, points, and payments will. The Rich Young Ruler isn’t a “rich guy” dunk; it’s a mirror. Money threatens to become identity, security, and scorecard. Jesus’ money talk isn’t fundraising …it’s heart surgery. The church can’t heal what it won’t name. And here’s a reality check on tithing language in the pews: only 21% of Christians say they give 10% or more to their church; among practicing Christians, the figure rises to 42%, but it’s still not a majority. Clear, confident teaching matters. So, here’s the deal: if less than half of your people are tithing, and you’re still allergic to talking about money, you’ve basically handed the keys of financial discipleship to TikTok finance bros and credit card companies. The antidote? Stop reinventing the wheel and learn from churches already doing this well. Rip their best moves, pivot them for your context, and jam until it sticks. The following five examples aren’t theory; they’re field-tested, congregation-shaping strategies that actually move the needle. Steal These Ideas for Teaching on Generosity These aren’t “talks about money.” They’re systems that pair sermons with scaffolding—tools, prompts, groups, and follow-up. (Yes, steal this.) The summaries below draw on their public resources and the field notes you provided. Crossroads Church (Cincinnati, OH) — Tithe Test + The Blue Team Crossroads treats Malachi 3 like a lab: 90-Day Tithe Test, with public invitations, clear sign-ups, and—this is key—a refund guarantee if participants don’t sense God’s provision in that period. It’s not just a sermon; it’s an experiment with a feedback loop. They’ve also publicly talked about the tithe test/refund in weekend content: “we will refund your entire amount of money [after 90 days, if you don’t see God meet your needs].” They share stories from people who have participated and invite people to join in. Why it’s smart Behavioral friction is your enemy. A simple, high-trust on-ramp reduces fear. Guarantee = confidence signal. It reframes tithing as testable, not mystical. Tribe beats try-hard. Their “Blue Team” (declared tithers) creates belonging, updates, and social proof—discipleship with nametags. (Crossroads surfaces the 90-Day Tithe Test in their group and resource ecosystem.) Steal this Offer a time-boxed challenge with explicit sign-ups and a real follow-up plan. Build a “finish line” story—share outcomes, testimonies, and next steps. Form a named cohort for ongoing encouragement (think: “Founders,” “First Fruits,” etc.). Liquid Church (NJ) — Generous Livin’ with Receipts Liquid runs a 90-Day Tithe Challenge with a money-back guarantee, reinforced by weekly videos/emails, budgeting workshops, and practical content across their site. Start here: “Give Generously” (challenge + guarantee). See also “The Blessing of Generous Livin’” and a sampling of debt/finance helps that continually point back to the challenge (e.g., How to Get Out of Debt, Keys to Financial Freedom). Why it’s smart Bold offer = clarity. A guarantee signals pastoral confidence and lowers cynicism. Drip content changes habits. Weekly nudges move people from intention to action. Holistic framing. Teaching + tools acknowledges the money ecosystem (budgets, debt, goals), not just the Sunday plate. Steal this Stand up a simple microsite/landing page with one action: “Join the 90-Day Challenge.” Script eight weekly nudges (video + email) before the series launches. Pair the series with budgeting classes and coaching hours. Pantano Christian (Tucson, AZ) — Altars of Generosity They invited a small, concrete step: “Add $10/week to your tithe.” Small enough to be doable; specific enough to be measurable. And they framed it theologically as “worship in motion.” Series overview and message page. Why it’s smart Shrink the ask, grow the muscle. Micro-moves beat macro-vows. Worship framing. This isn’t “fundraising;” it’s formation. Legacy lane. Budgeting + estate planning workshops widen generosity beyond this weekend to this lifetime. Steal this Name a small weekly move and make it your default on-ramp. Offer two tracks: Entry (budgeting 101) and Advanced (estate/legacy). Capture testimonies in week 4; run them back in week 6 to reinforce momentum. Life.Church — Making Change They made a money series so simple it could fit on a T-shirt: Less Is More Stress Is Bad Giving Is Good Tomorrow Matters Each talk is a sticky, single idea, reinforced through YouVersion devotionals and group courses like Financial Peace (FPU). The series index is available, featuring individual message pages: Making Change overview, Less Is More, Stress Is Bad, Giving Is Good, and Tomorrow Matters. Why it’s smart Sermons that travel. One-liners spread further than 45-minute word studies. Daily reinforcement. Devotionals convert Sunday inspiration into Tuesday habits. Group accountability. People do hard things with people; FPU is the scaffolding. Steal this Reduce each week to a four-word maxim. If it won’t fit on a slide, it won’t stick in a mind. Publish a 7-day reading plan per week of the series. Recruit host homes (short, time-bound groups) to practice the content—think 4–6 weeks. Saddleback (Lake Forest, CA) — Uncommon Cents They named the water we’re swimming in: skyrocketing consumer debt + low financial literacy, and then they built a resource hub (worksheets, tools), ran workshops, and launched Financial Freedom groups. Start here: Uncommon Cents series hub Why it’s smart They dignify the struggle. “Debt” and “stress” get named, not shamed. They curate tools. One click from sermon to action. They scale discipleship. Short-term groups translate content to community. Steal this Set up a Financial Tools page before your series launches. Offer pop-up workshops during the series window (budgeting, debt snowball, saving). Run 6-week Financial Freedom groups; publish a start/stop date to lower the barrier. How to Preach Money with Clarity (and Zero Cringe) Lead with purpose, not pressure. “We want something for you, not from you.” Then show how money discipleship grows freedom, margin, and mission. (Barna’s virtuous cycle insight is your friend here.) Name the cultural liturgies. Debt, dopamine, and one-click checkout catechize your people daily. Quote the macro: household debt trends, high APR retail cards, etc., to be concrete about the “enemy.” Make the ask measurable. A 90-day challenge or a $10/week step creates traction. (See Crossroads, Liquid, Pantano for models.) Pair every sermon with a tool. App, worksheet, group, or coaching hour. If Sunday has no Tuesday, you’re just motivational speaking. Use one-liners that travel. Life.Church’s four titles are masterclass-level sticky. Say less so people remember more. Tell stories (yours included). People borrow courage. Whatever your “$35-grocery week” story is, use it to humanize giving and offer a parable of trust. The Elephant in the Auditorium Pastors often avoid discussing money for understandable reasons, such as fear of appearing self-interested, not wanting to trigger shame, or because it wasn’t covered in seminary. But the bigger risk is malpractice by omission. Barna shows that only a fraction of Christians intentionally tithe; Stewardship’s polling reveals that churches rarely address generosity. People are already being formed—just not by Jesus. If your church won’t disciple people’s wallets, don’t be shocked when Wall Street does.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Lane Lowery, Executive Pastor of Warren Church in South Carolina and Georgia. Founded in 1898, Warren is one of the fastest-growing churches in America, with over 7,000 members across its campuses. Known for its Southern hospitality, Bible teaching, and focus on whole-person ministry, Warren has also launched a Hope Women’s Center and is preparing to open a Hope Mental Wellness Center. Is your church wrestling with how to scale leadership and maintain unity as you grow? Tune in as Lane shares how Warren Church transitioned to a global leadership model, developed essential staff practices, and keeps the large church personal and relational. From single-site to multi-site. // When Lane first arrived at Warren Church it was a single-campus church of around 3,000 members. Today, with multiple campuses and ministries, the church has grown to nearly 7,000 members and employs 270 staff. Lane notes that what worked for one or two campuses no longer fit once the church expanded to six ministry expressions. The global leadership model. // To address challenges of scale, Warren implemented a global leadership structure. Eight global ministry teams oversee preschool, next gen, discipleship, missions, worship, communications, counseling, and the Hope Women’s Center. Each leader is a “player-coach,” serving in a campus role while also providing oversight across all locations. This ensures alignment while keeping leaders grounded in local ministry. Why unity matters. // Before adopting the global model, Warren found itself with competing ministry silos—at one point even running three different discipleship models across campuses. The new structure promotes collaboration, vision-sharing, and consistency, ensuring that ministries move together rather than in competition. The player-coach advantage. // Asking leaders to both manage a local ministry and oversee their area globally is demanding, but it builds credibility. Leaders bring ideas from real ministry experience and share them across campuses. To prevent burnout, Warren Church emphasizes intentional rhythms, regular meetings, and clear communication. Eight Essential Practices. // To embed culture, Warren Church developed a set of eight essential practices guiding staff behavior. These are celebrated in staff communications, reinforced during onboarding, and reviewed biannually. Practices like “Connect with People” and “Leverage Change to Move the Mission” ensure values don’t stay on the wall but shape daily ministry. Keeping it personal. // Even as a large church, Warren prioritizes personal touches. Each location has a paid staff member who oversees the First Impressions Team at that campus, and every first-time guest receives a personal call within the week. With about 70 new guests each Sunday across campuses, that’s more than 3,500 calls annually. Hospital visits, prayer before surgeries, and care for shut-ins also remain a priority, modeling shepherding from the senior pastor down. When it’s time to change. // Lane encourages leaders to admit when structures aren’t working, secure leadership buy-in, research and learn from other churches, engage stakeholders early, and clearly communicate the “why” behind changes. Transitioning Warren’s model took about a year of planning, listening, and implementation—but the results have unified and strengthened the church. Visit warren.church to learn more about Warren Church and reach out to Lane here. Plus, download the Eight Essential Practices document that Lane talks about. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. You are going to be rewarded for tuning in. Thanks for being here. I think we’ve got one of the oldest churches on the hat we’ve ever had on an episode. Warren Church, founded in 1898, is one of the fastest growing churches in the country, which I love that because so many times I think we think of fast growing churches and like there they’re like celebrate their fifth year and they’re so excited for how long they’ve been around.Rich Birch — But this church has been around for a long time. They’ve got four campuses in South Carolina and Georgia. Southern hospitality, generosity, strong Bible teaching, and a passion for making disciples and multiplying disciple makers have been a heart of Warren from the very beginning and behind all they do. They also have a sports and fitness center programs that really try to minister to the whole person. Lane Lowery is with us today. He is the executive pastor. Welcome to the show. So glad you’re here, Lane.Lane Lowery — Thank you so much, Rich. I am grateful to be a part of this.Rich Birch — This is going be a good conversation. Why don’t you kind of fill in the picture? Tell us a little bit. That’s kind of the bio of who the church is. Tell us about the church. Kind of give us the flavor and tell us a little bit about when you say executive pastor. I know as an XP, it’s like every XP looks a little different. Tell us about your role.Lane Lowery — Sure, sure. Well, as you said, Warren is about 127 year old church. We are multi-site and it’s happened just incredible. We launched our first multi-site campus, Grovetown, right at 11 years ago. Rich Birch — Nice. Lane Lowery — And then within the last five years, we’ve adopted two other churches. Rich Birch — Wow.Lane Lowery — So we did a church plant, if you will, which you know but was our first multi-site. And then the the Lord brought us two other churches and it’s been incredible. Lane Lowery — We also have a Hope Women’s Center, which is a crisis pregnancy center that we oversee. And we are just about to launch what we’re calling the Hope Mental Wellness Center um that will open the doors of that in January. And so we’ve already had a counseling ministry going on here, but we’ve expanded that. And we’re really excited about about that.Lane Lowery — We’ve got a large church staff here and I get to serve as executive pastor. We have another executive pastor as well, which I’ll talk about later on, who is just a phenomenal leader. And and so just grateful that the the Lord allows us to participate in this together. And we’ve got an incredible leader, Dr. David McKinley is our senior pastor. He’s been with us 17 years… Rich Birch — That’s great. Lane Lowery — …and the and the Lord has just done ah an incredible work here. As you said, we are in the in the deep South and it is it’s ah it’s a fantastic ministry. I’m grateful that that the Lord has allowed me to be here. I’ve been here 19 years. And I’ve seen a lot of change. I’ve had a front row seat to some exponential growth. And it’s been a lot of fun ah to to be a part of that.Rich Birch — Why don’t we talk a little bit of metrics there in the time from when you came 19 years ago to today? What does that look like from a growth point of view? Just to give people, I know you’re not like, ah you’re you not a bragging kind of guy. Lane Lowery — Sure.Rich Birch — you don’t want to brag about it, but talk us through that. That helps give a little bit of context for the conversation we’re having.Lane Lowery — Great. Well, when I came here 19 years ago, we were Warren Church, Augusta. That was it. And, um and since then we’ve planted three other churches and we’ve launched a Hope Women’s Center. Like I said, the crisis pregnancy center, and we are in the process of launching a Hope Mental Wellness Center.Lane Lowery — So we’ve, when I got here, we were, um probably around 3000 members total. We’re over almost 7,000 now. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. Lane Lowery — Um, like I said, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve been able to adopt some churches and, and we’ve been able to, just really engage our community in just an incredible way.Lane Lowery — Obviously, you know, staff is growing. I remember when I got here, our full staff, we could meet in a, in a, in a, like a life group classroom. Now we have to meet in a large, you know, we’re up to 270 employees at this point… Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah. Yep. Lane Lowery — …on our, our six campuses, if you will. So we’ve just seen incredible, like said, we just seen the Lord do incredible things over the last 19 years.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, I’d love to talk about that, particularly the kind of leadership structure stuff. I know as we, it’