The Children's Law Podcast

In this episode, John and Angela take on the difficult topic of creating and holding boundaries with child clients. Filled with nuance and contradictions, the topic of boundaries is challenging for many children's lawyers. We hope you enjoy the discussion!  Feel free to reach out with comments or episode ideas to Angela, at angela@childrenslaw.org.

Preventive and pre-petition advocacy is not in all jurisdictions, but when the Title IV-E rule clarified that this representation was eligible for reimbursement, expansion increased. Angela asks Emilie Cook to explain how it works. Emilie is a Senior Attorney at the Barton Child Law and Policy Center at Emory University School of Law and leads the Preventive Legal Advocacy and Pre-petition Program National Cohort to focus on early intervention and holistic support for at-risk families.  The Barton Center has a PLA/PP Cohort that anyone can join to learn more, and here is a link to a fact sheet developed with the National Association of Counsel for Children. We hope you learned something new and valuable, and if you did, please rate and share the podcast!

Despite progress, children involved in both dependency and delinquency proceedings still have higher risks for poor outcomes. Crossover, dually-involved, or dual-adjudicated youth have greater mental health challenges, poorer placement stability, and worse permanency outcomes. John, Angela and Deborah talk about what an already-busy child's attorney might do and, as importantly, why.

A LOT of the kids we're representing are being prescribed psychotropic medications - especially the older youth. John, Angela, and Deborah talk about ways children's attorneys can get more information and confidence in this area to effectively advocate for clients even if we don't have medical expertise: The NIH says children in foster care are 6.8% more likely to be prescribed psychotropic medication than their non-foster care peers. As children's attorneys and not medical professionals, it is not our role to diagnose, but it is our role to make sure decision-makers have complete information, ask questions, and make sure everyone has done their due diligence before our clients are added to this very high number. Some children need medicine but what's the full picture? Are the problematic behaviors related to a trauma response? Do they persist across all aspects of the child's life (home, school, etc.)? Are there other therapies or supports that should be used instead of or in addition to the medication? Is everyone following the law? Because of the severity of side effects of some psychotropic medications and because some are not approved for use in children specifically, most states have detailed statutes, administrative rules, and/or operating procedures. Sometimes just holding the system accountable to the child by ensuring the law is followed is enough to protect your client.

In this episode, Angela interviews Professor Vivek Sankaran, Director of the Child Advocacy Law and Child Welfare Appellate Clinics at the University of Michigan's School of Law. Professor Sankaran encourages stakeholders to question whether TPR is in the best interests of as many children as we think it is. He and Angela talk about his article, The ties that bind us: An empirical, clinical, and constitutional argument against terminating parental rights, which found over 60,000 TPRs were granted annually between 2016-2019, despite a declining foster care population. While recognizing TPR is necessary in some cases, he poses some thoughtful questions for others.

A new book “Families Belong Together,” was released by Public Knowledge to help elevate and honor the voices of individuals with lived experience and make the case for reimagining our child welfare system. Stacey Moss, Public Knowledge President and CEO, and Will Hornsby, Senior Vice President of Delivery, talk with Angela about the group’s idea to “replace” the current system with a community-oriented, strengths-focused approach that matches the social, economic, racial, ethnic, and religious realities of each community. The book features stories of families who navigated the system, and serves as a call to action. Stacey, Will, and Angela talk about whether to keep tinkering with improvements on the current system or construct something new and different. As always, there are tips on how children’s attorneys can make an impact. Get the full picture. Getting comprehensive information will help get the “right diagnosis” and better tailored solutions. Talk to your client. Every family has strengths that can serve as natural supports and mitigate risks. Get creative. Advocate for what works for the family, instead of defaulting to what is best for the people that do this work every day. Focus on what brought the child into the system to hone in on what is necessary to get the family out. Stacey says it feels like we're in a fight between safety and permanency - at the expense of focusing on well-being of children and families. Public Knowledge wants to change that. Their powerful book is filled with concrete ideas and stories that can be used for training and to facilitate conversations about how the system can be better. The content of the book is available on the website for free and is being sold on Amazon. Here is the link to the book:  https://go.pubknow.com/families-belong-together-book Public Knowledge also has a podcast and we invite you to listen in. Click the link to access the Igniting Impact Podcast: https://pubknow.com/media-center/podcast/

January is National Human Trafficking Prevention Month, and we want to give children's attorneys some perspectives on advocating for child victims going forward. Angela talked to Professor Emma Hetherington, from the Wilbanks Child Endangerment and Sexual Exploitation Clinic at University of Georgia School of Law (CEASE Clinic) about how identifying the individualized needs of HT/CSEC victims can lead to better outcomes for safety and independent living. Professor Hetherington offered resources to learn more: Harm Reduction Series Introduction, California Child Trafficking Response Unit (2018): https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/BTB25-3E-01.pdf Harm Reduction Series Caregiver, California Child Trafficking Response Unit (2022): https://file.lacounty.gov/SDSInter/lac/1125790_CaregiverHarmReductionI-31_22.pdf You can click the title to hear our previous discussion with Professor Hetherington, "When Your Client is A Victim of Sex Trafficking" and see links to even more resources. Thanks for being our listener and please like, subscribe and share!

Children's attorneys are critically important to the functioning and success of child welfare - but it doesn't always feel that way. Why do we do it? How do you stay in this field and not burn out? Angela, John, and Jim share their perspectives and give a little pep talk to kick off 2025.

In 2017, the Safe Havens report was published to "Close the Gap Between Recommended Practice and Reality for Transgender and Gender-Expansive Youth in Out-of-Home Care." The report has been updated to reflect current research and resources for LGBQ+ and transgender, nonbinary, gender diverse (TNGD) youth, along with giving lived experience perspectives and a call to action. In this episode, Angela talks to two of the contributors, Elliott Hinkle of Unicorn Solutions and Emilio Valladolid, both with lived experience in the child welfare system.  The Safe Havens II Report can be used as both a legal and practical resource. The podcast discussion highlighted a few:  Glossary by Center for the Study of Social Policy: https://cssp.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Key-Equity-Terms-and-Concepts-vol1.pdf  Centerlink LGBTQ Center Association: https://www.lgbtqcenters.org/LGBTCenters  Trevor Project for mental health: https://www.thetrevorproject.org The report will provide attorneys of all levels of experience with tools for their cases and a greater understanding of TNGD and LGBQ+ clients - check it out: https://lambdalegal.org/safe-havens-report/safe-havens-full-report/.

Ever come across a case plan packed with tasks that have little to do with a family's actual challenges? What is the child's attorney's role? Angela and Jim dive into this topic, discussing how children's attorneys can influence case planning. They explore the gap between ideal practices and what is happening on the ground, and share how a child's attorney can take a proactive role to benefit their clients. 

That's the rate at which infants and toddlers are being removed from their homes in the U.S. according to new research from Zero to Three, and this age group makes up nearly 50% of the foster care population. What should children's attorneys know when advocating for this population? Angela interviewed Shannon Felder, Training Director from the NACC to get some practical advice and a preview of NACC's upcoming Infants and Toddlers series. Some of the issues discussed included: Are sibling bonds among infants and toddlers being discounted because they haven't had time to solidify yet? What does "compassionate advocacy" look like in the context of children 0-5? For attorneys representing these children, does secondary trauma hit differently? Child welfare research is always evolving, so for attorneys who want to learn more the NACC is offering a four-part training begins October 30. Click here for details and to register.

In this episode we're talking about staying in the profession, with ideas for both individual attorneys and organizations. The reality is there isn't always money available to retain employees in this field, even if they love it. Angela, Jim, and Deborah (a new voice) discuss strategies they've used and new ideas from their facilitated discussion at the National Association of Counsel for Children conference.

In this episode Angela interviews Jonathan Budd, Associate Executive Director from KidsVoice in Pittsburgh about strategies KidsVoice uses to retain lawyers. Jonathan says if he had to emphasize two things they would be flexibility and time off - things people can control regardless of how much money they have or how much fundraising ability exists. 

In this episode, Angela talks with Shannon Felder, Training Director at the National Association of Counsel for Children. Listen to learn about upcoming training opportunities and ways to connect with fellow children's lawyers. And be sure to join us at the NACC conference in Salt Lake City August 12-14, 2024! We will be presenting at the preconference Children's Law Office Project Convening. We hope to see you there!  Click HERE to register To learn more about NACC membership or to join, click HERE.

Have you ever seen a dependency case that looks more like a tennis match? The parties volleying back and forth, waiting to see if the parents will succeed? In some jurisdictions, everyone is doing their job, but no one is leading. In this episode, we want to encourage children's attorneys to take charge. We think one of the most consequential things you can do for your clients is to think of yourself as lead counsel. Listen to learn how you can boldly step into the role of lead counsel and achieve better outcomes for your clients.

Some of our child clients have been talking to John and Jim about adoption, which inspired an episode about how we think of adoption as children's attorneys: It's important to understand all the things that come with and all the things that get taken away with adoption. Federal policies and local practices seem to swing on a pendulum as to whether adoption is to be emphasized or strenuously avoided, but we focus on finding the best possible option for each singular client and keep it in our tool belts. One way we think of the issue is that adoption is about the risk of harm from the continued pursuit of reunification versus the risk of harm due to the loss of their birth family. As a child's attorney, knowing your client and the dynamics affecting them will help you recognize when adoption might be the best strategy for the child. Thanks for listening and please share with others who might find the podcast helpful!

Placement decisions happen fast and are made by the agency - usually without any input from attorneys representing children. The child's placement impacts the case A LOT so we wanted to do a podcast about the things we think about when it comes to placement. It's the agency's job to find a placement right away, but evaluating whether the placement will ultimately facilitate permanency for the child is yours. If reunification seems likely, should the kids be with a couple that wants to adopt? If TPR looks probable, do you let a baby stay in a placement that separates her from her 11 year old sister? Getting the home study and critically reviewing it can help identify omissions that will help keep the child safe or, alternatively, possibilities for placement that shouldn't be ruled out. Talking to the child - both at the placement and away from the home - is always important. Listen and trust your instincts.   Children's attorneys don't always have a lot of options when it comes to impacting the child's placement. However, since the placement impacts your overall legal strategy it can't be considered in a vacuum. We hope our discussion gives you some ideas for your jurisdiction!

We talk about work culture and retention a lot in child welfare. Angela talks with Cathy Krebs, Director of the ABA's Children’s Rights Litigation Committee who thinks a new approach to these topics could lead to ways to improve representation. A few of the subjects covered were: Burnout and self-care - Cathy tells a story of a child client who's attorney seemed so distracted and overwhelmed that the child decided not to "burden" the lawyer with what was happening in her life. The need for self-care is real, and doing anything from singing to cooking to meditation has benefit. Mentorship - Attorneys with even a couple years of experience can help others who don't know the culture or may be working alone. Community - If you're a solo practitioner or in a smaller children's law office, there are things you can do within existing resources to create a supportive network, like brown bag lunches or collaborating on systemic advocacy. The ABA's Children's Rights Committee has resources on this topic and tons of others. Some of the studies mentioned include:    The Future of Children’s Lawyering Practical Tips for Addressing Burnout Using Reflective Case Consultation to Battle Burnout and Secondary Traumatic Stress 2021 Illinois Legal Aid Recruitment and Retention Study What Draws Attorneys to Child Welfare Practice The Case for a Centralized Office for Legal Representation in Child Welfare Cases

In this episode, Angela, John and Jim discuss a few key takeaways from 2023. 

Sometimes you can move a case with legal arguments and procedural tools, but other times, you have to win hearts and minds. In our newest podcast, Jim, John and Angela share how learning to message in this way can help your child client.