The Integrated Schools Podcast

How do we decide which children count as "our kids"? And what does that have to do with how we fund public schools? Andrew Lefkowits and Dr. Val Brown talk with Zahava Stadler, Director of the Education Funding Equity Initiative at New America, about why some school districts have so much more than others—and how school funding and segregation reinforce each other. Zahava explains where school funding comes from, why state formulas don't always produce equitable outcomes, and how school district boundaries shape both the children who learn together and the resources available to them. We also explore New America's Redrawing the Lines project and the new School District Merger Lab, which allows communities to model how district mergers could affect integration and funding fairness. District boundaries were drawn by people. What could change if we drew them differently? RESOURCES School District Merger Lab: https://www.newamerica.org/insights/the-school-district-merger-lab/ Zahava Stadler – New America: https://www.newamerica.org/people/zahava-stadler/ Education Funding Equity Initiative: https://www.newamerica.org/projects/education-funding-equity/ Redrawing the Lines – report: https://www.newamerica.org/insights/redrawing-the-lines-school-system-redistricting-increase-funding-fairness-decrease-segregation/ Redrawing the Lines – interactive map: https://www.newamerica.org/insights/redrawing-the-lines-school-system-redistricting-increase-funding-fairness-decrease-segregation/viii-interactive-map-and-data-explorer/ Sealing the Trapdoors – school funding equity: https://www.newamerica.org/insights/sealing-the-trapdoors-the-state-policies-that-matter-for-equitable-k-12-school-funding/ Education Commission of the States – K-12 funding by state: https://www.ecs.org/50-state-comparison-k-12-funding-2024/ The Education Trust – Equal Is Not Good Enough: https://edtrust.org/rti/equal-is-not-good-enough/ Ann Owens – research on neighborhood segregation: https://inequality.stanford.edu/publications/media/details/inequality-children%E2%80%99s-contexts-income-segregation-households-and-without Research on school spending and long-term outcomes: https://www.nber.org/papers/w20847 Abbott v. Burke – New Jersey school funding litigation: https://edlawcenter.org/litigation/abbott-history/ Milliken v. Bradley (1974): https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/418/717/ Our episode with Michelle Adams on Milliken: https://integratedschools.org/podcast/s11e9-the-containment-michelle-adams-on-northern-jim-crow/ Our episode with Brown's Promise: https://integratedschools.org/podcast/s11e6-advocacy-for-equitable-funding-and-integration-with-browns-promise/ CONNECT WITH US Send us a voice memo: https://www.speakpipe.com/integratedschools Email: [email protected] Support our work: https://www.patreon.com/integratedschools Bookshop: https://bookshop.org/shop/IntegratedSchools Website: https://integratedschools.org Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/integratedschools/ The Integrated Schools Podcast was created by Courtney Mykytyn and Andrew Lefkowits. Produced by Andrew Lefkowits and Val Brown. Edited and mixed by Andrew Lefkowits. Music by Kevin Casey. #IntegratedSchools #SchoolFunding #SchoolSegregation Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

# Reflecting on Nikole Hannah-Jones and the Choice for Integration Ten years ago, Nikole Hannah-Jones wrote a powerful essay about choosing a predominantly Black, low-income public school for her daughter, Najya. That piece helped inspire a generation of parents to think differently about school choice, including many of us at Integrated Schools. Now, a decade later, Hannah-Jones has returned to that decision, this time through the eyes of her 16-year-old daughter, who has some very different feelings about the education she received. Her new essay, *In Fighting for Every Black Child, Did I Betray My Own?*, has sparked a national conversation about school segregation, parenting, privilege, and the tension between doing what's best for our own children and doing what's right for all children. To help us wrestle with these questions, we're joined by two mothers with different experiences and perspectives. **Marian Dingle**, a longtime educator and Black mother of two adult children, reflects on the choices she made for her own kids and the importance of protecting their identities and humanity. **Jenny Devenny**, a White mother in Brooklyn and leader of Integrated Schools' NYC chapter, shares why Hannah-Jones's experience has strengthened, rather than shaken, her commitment to integration. Together, we explore what makes a school "good," the limits of school ratings and test scores, the role of parents in advocating for their children, and the ways race shapes the risks and opportunities families encounter. We also consider what it means to stay engaged when a school isn't perfect, how we define success for our children, and why the responsibility for integration cannot continue to fall disproportionately on Black families. Hannah-Jones's reflections are a reminder that one family's choices cannot undo generations of systemic inequity. But that doesn't mean our choices don't matter. At the heart of this conversation is a question we return to often at Integrated Schools: **How wide can we draw the circle of children we consider "our kids"?** We are deeply grateful to Nikole Hannah-Jones and Najya for sharing their experiences so honestly, and to Marian and Jenny for helping us sit with the complexity, discomfort, and possibility of this work. ## LINKS & RESOURCES **In Fighting for Every Black Child, Did I Betray My Own?** — Nikole Hannah-Jones, The New York Times Magazine (2026) https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/20/magazine/ny-public-schools-black-students-segregation.html **Choosing a School for My Daughter in a Segregated City** — Nikole Hannah-Jones, The New York Times Magazine (2016) https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/magazine/choosing-a-school-for-my-daughter-in-a-segregated-city.html **An Argument** — This American Life, featuring conversations with Nikole Hannah-Jones and Najya (2026) https://www.thisamericanlife.org/898/an-argument **The Problem We All Live With, Part One** — This American Life (2015) https://www.thisamericanlife.org/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-one **The Problem We All Live With, Part Two** — This American Life (2015) https://www.thisamericanlife.org/563/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-two **What Nikole Hannah-Jones's Essay Means for White Families** — Jenny Devenny, Integrated Schools (2026) https://integratedschools.org/what-nikole-hannah-joness-essay-means-for-white-families/ ## ABOUT OUR GUESTS **Marian Dingle** is a longtime elementary school educator, mother of two adult children, and advocate for educational justice. Drawing on her experience as a Black mother, teacher, and daughter of an educator, she brings a perspective on the importance of academic opportunity, belonging, and protecting children's humanity. **Jenny Devenny** is a White mother of two in Brooklyn, New York, and leader of the NYC chapter of Integrated Schools. A social worker by training, she is also the author of *Race Cars*, a children's book about White privilege. Her children attend a predominantly Black and Brown, Title I public school in their neighborhood. ## CONNECT WITH INTEGRATED SCHOOLS Send us a voice memo: https://speakpipe.com/integratedschools Check out our Bookshop.org storefront to support local bookstores and send a portion of the proceeds back to us: https://bookshop.org/shop/IntegratedSchools Join our Patreon to support this work, and connect with us and other listeners to discuss these issues even further: https://www.patreon.com/integratedschools Subscribe to our YouTube Channel for video versions of our episodes: https://www.youtube.com/@integratedschools Let us know what you think of this episode, suggest future topics, or share your story with us! Facebook: https://facebook.com/integratedschools Instagram: https://instagram.com/integratedschools/ TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@integratedschools Email: [email protected] ## CREDITS The Integrated Schools Podcast was created by Courtney Mykytyn and Andrew Lefkowits. This episode was produced by Andrew Lefkowits and Val Brown. It was edited and mixed by Andrew Lefkowits. Music by Kevin Casey. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

We are back! Welcome to Season 13 of The Integrated Schools Podcast. It’s been almost eight years and over 170 episodes, but as we kick off this new season, we are reflecting on where we find ourselves—as a country, as an organization, and in our own lives. Val is navigating life with a college freshman (who earned a 100% on his first African American Studies test!) and a high school senior, while Andrew is stepping into the classroom for the first time as a high school audio engineering and musical theater teacher. These real-world transitions ground us in the ongoing, messy work of wrestling with parenting, privilege, and public education. In this kickoff episode, we take a hard look at the state of public education right now. With federal rollbacks on civil rights enforcement, decreasing oversight, and expanding voucher and privatization schemes, the national landscape feels tricky and daunting. Yet, even in this moment, we find local reasons for hope. Across the country—from Denver and Winston-Salem to Charlotte-Mecklenburg, Montgomery County, and beyond—school districts are undergoing boundary redraws and student assignment reviews that explicitly aim to reduce socioeconomic segregation. These local efforts remind us that when the ground is shifting, there is an opportunity to build toward real change if we show up and demand it. As we look ahead to Season 13, we are focused on tilling the soil for future systemic change and radicalizing our hope. Guided by Dr. Loretta Ross's reminder to "hold our link in the chain," we are preparing to dream together about what public education could look like on the other side of this moment. Throughout the season, we'll be bringing in a diverse range of voices—including Afrofuturists, Indigenous thinkers, youth, and caregivers of students with special needs—to imagine a truly just, multiracial education system beyond simply rebuilding what was. How are you holding your link in the chain during this political moment, and what does your dream for a truly integrated, multiracial public education system look like? LINKS Share your thoughts, local stories, or feedback via voice memo at speakpipe.com/integratedschools or email [email protected] Support the show and access monthly happy hours, show notes, and discussion guides on Patreon (http://patreon.com/integratedschools) Explore or connect with an Integrated Schools Local Chapter (https://integratedschools.org/chapters) Listen to the Season 12 finale: Val’s reflection on parenting transitions and letting go (https://integratedschools.org/podcast/s12e17-reflections-on-season-12/) Join the Movement Support is a verb! Help keep these unsponsored, nuanced conversations going by joining our Patreon community, (https://www.patreon.com/integratedschools) starting a podcast listening group in your neighborhood, or sharing this episode with a friend. The Integrated Schools Podcast was created by Courtney Mykytyn and Andrew Lefkowits. This episode was produced by Andrew Lefkowits and Val Brown. It was edited and mixed by Andrew Lefkowits. Music by Kevin Casey. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

As we wrap up another school year, we're taking a moment to reflect on the conversations, challenges, and lessons that shaped Season 12. This year, we explored what it means to build belonging, strengthen community, advocate for public education, and stay connected through uncertainty. Along the way, we learned from educators, organizers, authors, students, parents, and community members who reminded us that while the challenges facing our schools are real, none of us are facing them alone. We also hear from listeners navigating school closures, parent organizing, and the everyday joys of integrated schools. Their stories remind us that community is built not only through big moments, but through the choices we make to show up for one another again and again. In This Episode Belonging matters One of the biggest themes we kept returning to this season was belonging. From conversations about disability justice to discussions about third spaces and community care, we explored what it looks like to create schools and communities where everyone feels seen, valued, and connected. The power of conversation and community This season reinforced something we deeply believe: meaningful change happens in relationship with one another. We reflected on lessons from guests like Dr. Loretta Ross, who reminded us that none of us are responsible for fixing everything alone. The work becomes sustainable when it's rooted in community. Public education under pressure Throughout the season, we examined some of the challenges facing public education today, including: School closures and spatial injustice (https://integratedschools.org/podcast/s12e12-spatial-injustice-school-closures-as-a-form-of-educational-redlining/) The resurgence of "massive resistance" to educational equity (https://integratedschools.org/podcast/s12e9-staying-power-with-danielle-wingfield/) Immigration enforcement's impact on students and families (https://integratedschools.org/podcast/s12e10-caring-for-your-community-in-a-time-of-crisis-on-the-ground-in-minneapolis/) The ongoing struggle for educational justice across generations Learning from history Again and again, our guests reminded us that today's struggles are connected to longer histories of organizing, resistance, and collective action. From the Lemon Grove desegregation case to reflections on Thurgood Marshall's legacy, we explored how history can help guide us through the present moment. Listener Reflections We also heard from listeners who shared: The grief and organizing that can emerge when a neighborhood school closes The importance of family voice and participation in public schools Moments of joy that remind us why integrated schools matter A Few Things We're Carrying Forward Belonging is foundational to healthy schools and communities. Public education is strongest when families, educators, and communities work together. History can offer both perspective and possibility. Community sustains us through uncertainty. There is real joy to be found in learning, growing, and building alongside people whose experiences differ from our own. Looking Ahead As we prepare for another season—and as our own families navigate major transitions—we're thinking about what comes next. What conversations are you having in your community? What challenges are showing up in your schools? What stories should we be telling together? Send us a voice memo: speakpipe.com/integratedschools Thank you for listening, learning, and staying in community with us throughout Season 12. We're grateful to all of our guests, our listeners, and everyone committed to creating public schools that serve all of our children. Check out our Bookshop.org storefront to support local bookstores, and send a portion of the proceeds back to us. https://bookshop.org/shop/IntegratedSchools Join our Patreon to support this work, and connect with us and other listeners to discuss these issues even further. https://www.patreon.com/integratedschools Subscribe to our YouTube Channel for video versions of our episodes. https://www.youtube.com/@integratedschools Let us know what you think of this episode, suggest future topics, or share your story with us – IntegratedSchools on Facebook, @integratedschools on Instagram and TikTok, or email us [email protected]. The Integrated Schools Podcast was created by Courtney Mykytyn and Andrew Lefkowits.d This episode was produced by Andrew Lefkowits and Val Brown. It was edited, and mixed by Andrew Lefkowits. Music by Kevin Casey. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

On the 72nd anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education, Andrew and Dr. Val sit down with Cecilia Marshall — granddaughter of Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall and founder of the newly launched Thurgood Marshall Foundation. Together, they reflect on what it means to carry forward a legacy rooted not in individual heroism, but in collective courage, sacrifice, and community responsibility. Ms. Marshall shares intimate stories of knowing Thurgood Marshall simply as “Grandpa,” and how, only later in life, she came to understand the magnitude of his work and the sacrifices made by the families behind Brown v. Board. The conversation explores the importance of telling these histories honestly — especially to children — and why public schools remain one of our most important democratic institutions. From the bravery of the 200+ plaintiffs across the five Brown cases, to present-day debates around diversity, public education, and belonging, this episode asks what it means to build bridges in a deeply polarized moment — and what responsibilities we each carry in shaping a more just future for all children. In honor of the 72nd anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education, Integrated Schools is launching the 1954 Campaign. - https://give.socialgoodfund.org/1954campaign We are asking you to give: $19.54 $195.40 $1,954 or any amount meaningful to you Half of the proceeds will support the Thurgood Marshall Foundation and its work preserving and sharing this history with future generations. - https://give.socialgoodfund.org/1954campaign LINKS: The Thurgood Marshall Foundation - https://thurgoodmarshall.org/ Integrated Schools 1954 Campaign - Please donate today! - https://give.socialgoodfund.org/1954campaign Justice Marshall's Liberty Medal Acceptance Speech - https://www.naacpldf.org/press-release/thurgood-marshalls-stirring-acceptance-speech-after-receiving-the-prestigious-liberty-award-on-july-4-1992/ Recovering Untold Stories: An Enduring Legacy of the Brown v. Board of Education Decision - https://npshistory.com/publications/brvb/recovering-untold-stories.pdf Becoming Thurgood: America's Social Architect - PBS Documentary about Thurgood Marshall -https://www.pbs.org/show/becoming-thurgood-americas-social-architect/ Brown v Board @ Sixty Five: The Stories We Tell Ourselves (our 5 part series on the Brown decision) Ep 18 – Rucker Johnson and the Grandchildren of Desegregation (BvB@65) - https://integratedschools.org/podcast/ep-18-rucker-johnson-and-the-grandchildren-of-desegregation-bvb65/ Ep 19 – Segrenomics, Black Teachers, and Noliwe Rooks (BvB@65) - https://integratedschools.org/podcast/ep-19-segrenomics-black-teachers-and-noliwe-rooks-bvb65/ Ep20 – Amanda Lewis on Desegregation Without Integration (BvB@65) - https://integratedschools.org/podcast/ep20-amanda-lewis-on-desegregation-without-integration-bvb65/ Ep 21 – Beyond Black and White with David Hinojosa (BvB@65) - https://integratedschools.org/podcast/21-hinojosa/ Ep 22 – I Hope They Hear It In Our Voices (BvB@65) - https://integratedschools.org/podcast/ep-22-i-hope-they-hear-it-in-our-voices-bvb65/ S7E3 – Generational Work: Stefan Lallinger on Integration - https://integratedschools.org/podcast/lallinger/ NAACP Legal Defense Fund - https://www.naacpldf.org/ Send us a voice memo: speakpipe.com/integratedschools Check out our Bookshop.org storefront to support local bookstores, and send a portion of the proceeds back to us. https://bookshop.org/shop/IntegratedSchools Join our Patreon to support this work, and connect with us and other listeners to discuss these issues even further. https://www.patreon.com/integratedschools Subscribe to our YouTube Channel for video versions of our episodes. https://www.youtube.com/@integratedschools Let us know what you think of this episode, suggest future topics, or share your story with us – IntegratedSchools on Facebook, @integratedschools on Instagram and TikTok, or email us [email protected]. The Integrated Schools Podcast was created by Courtney Mykytyn and Andrew Lefkowits.d This episode was produced by Andrew Lefkowits and Val Brown. It was edited, and mixed by Andrew Lefkowits. Music by Kevin Casey. The Brown v Board Plaintiffs The bundle of five cases commonly referred to as Brown v. Board actually contained more than 200 plaintiffs. Below are their names and their associated cases. Belton v. Gebhart (Bulah v. Gebhart) Delaware State Court, Wilmington, Delaware Ethel Belton Sarah Bulah Joseph Crumpler John W. Davis Emma Fountain Barbara Byrd Henry Charles Hill Lois May Johnson Mary Johnson Willie Robinson John Short Harlan Trotter Bolling v. Sharpe U.S. District Court, Washington, D.C. Mrs. Sarah Bolling Spottswood Thomas Bolling Wanamaker Von Bolling William Briscoe Sarah Louise Briscoe James C. Jennings Adrienne Jennings Barbara Jennings Consolidated Parent Group, Inc. Briggs et al v. Elliott et al. U.S. District Court, Eastern Division, Charleston, South Carolina James Bennett Onetha Bennett Harry Briggs Robert Georgia Annie Gibson Gilbert H. Henry Susan Lawson Frederick Oliver Mary Oliver Mose Oliver Bennie Parson Edward Ragin Hazel Ragin William Ragin Lee Richardson Lucrisher Richardson Rebecca Richburg Henry Scott William Stukes Gabriel Tindal Davis v. County School Board of Prince Edward County U.S. District Court, Richmond, Virginia Hal Edward Allen (father) Hal Verner Allen (son) Margaret G. Allen (grandmother) James Henry C. Allen (grandson) Margaret G. Allen (mother) Herman Alexander Allen (son) Florence Gertrude Allen (daughter) Thomas H. Allen (father) Herman Wesley Allen (son) Thelma Leola Allen (daughter) Ellen Banks (guardian) John Banks, Jr. (guardee) Frankie Louise Berkeley Eddie Bigger (father) Virginia Bigger (daughter) Katie H. Bigger Leonard R. Bland (father) Floyd M. Bland (son) Reginald W. Bland (son) Clara S. Booker (mother) Blanche A. Booker (daughter) Ronald O.F. Booker (son) Joseph E. Booker (father) Loretta Booker (daughter) Carrie Brown James Brown (father) Phillip J. Brown (son) Nelson Carey (father) Mary Lizzie Carey (daughter) Anna Bell Carey (daughter) John Davis Rosa Bell Davis Isaiah Dennis (father) Adline Dennis (daughter) Charlie Dupuy (father) Pauline Dupuy (daughter) Susie Earley (mother) Bertha E. Earley (daughter) Helen Virginia Epps (mother) Alma D. Epps (daughter) Helen M. Epps (daughter) Agnes Farrar (guardian) Walker Camp Farrar (guardee) Alice Fowlkes (guardian) Alexander Fowlkes (guardee) Leroy McCormick (guardee) Amanda Goode Frances Goode (mother) Willie L. Goode (son) Katherine Goode (daughter) Dolly M. Goode (daughter) Harry S. Hall Thomas Hall (guardian) Mary E. Couch (guardee) Elsie Hargwood (mother) Junita Hargwood (daughter) Virginia Harris (mother) Ethel D. Harris (daughter) C.W. Hicks (father) Deloris Hicks (daughter) Marjorie Hicks (daughter) Inez O. Hicks Sarah Elizabeth Hicks (mother) Leigh Edward Hicks (son) Mosley Jefferson (father) Dorothy Alice Jefferson (daughter) Carrie Irene Jefferson (daughter) Robert Johns (father) Barbara Rose Johns (daughter) Joan Marie Johns (daughter) Kate Johnson (mother) Burnell Johnson, Jr. (son) Jasper W. Jones (father) Peter Jasper Jones (son) John Paul Jones (son) Nannie Lee (mother) George Lee (son) Sopophonie Miller (mother) Mattie Jean Miller (daughter) Herman Monroe (father) John Monroe (son) Harry Monroe (son) Richard Monroe (son) Emma H. Morton Mary Moton Viola W. Neal (mother) Catherine Neal (daughter) Lee Emmett Neal (son) Alma Randle (mother) Rosetta E. Randle (daughter) Ethel L. Randle (daughter) Martin R. Randle (son) Silas Redd (father) Gladys E. Redd (daughter) Charlie Redd (son) Nellie J. Richardson (mother) Jeanel E. Richardson (daughter) Anita Louise Richardson (daughter) Pinkie Rowlette (guardian) Reginald Rowlette (guardee) Alice Goins (guardee) Rowland D. Saunders (father) Vernethia C. Saunders (daughter) Henry Scott (father) Henry Scott, Jr. (son) Otis Scott (father) John Henry Scott (son) Walter Wallace Scott (son) Thomas H. Scott P.H. Shepperson (father) Lester Shepperson (son) Florine Shepperson (daughter) Willie Lee Shepperson (son) Louise Sims (mother) Helen L. Sims (daughter) Rebecca A. Sims (daughter) Sallie Spencer (mother) Mary L. Spencer (daughter) James Spencer (son) Alice M. Stokes (mother) John Arthur Stokes (son) Carrie Stokes (daughter) Jannie Streat (mother) Mary E. Streat (daughter) Pattie Taylor (mother) Dorothy L. Taylor (daughter) W. Howard Thompson (father) Frances Thompson (daughter) Rachel J. Thomson (daughter) John Townsend (father) Mildred Junita Townsend (daughter) Arlene Shirley Townsend (daughter) Mary Trent (mother) Barbara Reese Trent (daughter) Rose Marie Trent (daughter) Mattie Vaughan (mother) Calvin A. Vaughan (son) Maude E. Walker (mother) John Junius Walker (son) Maude Estelle Walker (daughter) Theophilus Walker (father) Edward Leon Walker (son) Mabel Gertrude Walker (daughter) John L. Watkins (father) Stella Watkins (daughter) John Watson, Sr. (father) John Watson, Jr. (son) Eva Werkler (mother) Rosa M. Werkler (daughter) Myrtle V. West (mother) Metteaner S. West (son) W.C. West (father) Barbara Jean West (daughter) Olivia Wiley (mother) Ettal L. Wiley (daughter) Frank Williams (father) Bessie Williams (daughter) Mildred Williams (daughter) Louise Willis Amelia Womack (mother) Clarence W. Womack (son) Aubrey D. Womack (son) Bert S. Womack (father) Elizabeth Womack (daughter) Leslie Woolridge Oliver L. Brown et al v. Board of Education of Topeka, Shawnee County, Kansas U.S. District Court, Topeka, Kansas Oliver Leon Brown Darlene Brown Lena M. Carper Sadie Emmanuel Marguerite Emmerson* Shirla Fleming Mrs. Andrew (Zelma) Henderson Shirley Hodison Mrs. Richard (Maude) Lawton Alma Lewis Iona Richardson Vivian Scales