Decoder with Nilay Patel

This is Hayden Field, senior AI reporter at The Verge and your Thursday episode guest host. Today, I’m talking with David Hershey, who leads the applied AI team at Anthropic. I wanted to have David on because earlier this week, Anthropic released a brand-new AI model called Claude Sonnet 4.5 that’s been making waves. So I wanted to sit down with David, who spends a lot of time testing out what modes like Claude Sonnet 4.5 can and can’t do, to ask him where we are on this promise of AI agents, and also what the path forward looks like as agentic technology progresses. Links:  Anthropic releases Claude Sonnet 4.5 in latest bid for AI agents | The Verge ChatGPT’s built-in Buy Now button has arrived | The Verge OpenAI really wants you to start your day with ChatGPT Pulse | The Verge Anthropic’s Claude AI is playing Pokémon | The Verge  AI agents are science fiction not yet ready for primetime | The Verge Agents are the future AI companies promise and need | The Verge  Amazon is betting on agents to win the AI race | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Joanna Stern, senior personal technology columnist at The Wall Street Journal. I’m the last Monday guest host filling in for Nilay here on Decoder while he’s out on parental leave with his adorable new son, and I’m very excited to be talking today to Ford CEO Jim Farley. I’m a longtime Decoder listener and my favorite episodes are car episodes. I think car CEOs are currently facing some of the most fascinating and complex challenges in both tech and business. So when I was asked to guest host the show I said, “That’s it, car CEOs.” And Farley was at the top of the list. This was a great conversation that covered a lot of ground. I think you’re going to like it.  Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links: I’ve been driving an EV for a year. I have only one regret. | WSJ Ford reveals breakthrough process for lower priced EVs | The Verge Ford is betting the future on smaller EV batteries | The Verge Ford is doubling down on EVs — the timing is awful | The Verge Ford’s CEO on the essential economy and its untapped potential | Aspen Institute Ford rejigs EV plans after suffering billions in losses | NYT Why Americans can’t buy the world’s best electric car | NYT Ford CEO Jim Farley on building the electric F-150 | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Hayden Field, senior AI reporter at The Verge — and your Thursday episode guest host. I have another couple of shows for you while Nilay is out on parental leave, and we’re going to be spending more time diving into some of the unforeseen consequences of the generative AI boom. Today, I’m talking with Heidy Khlaaf, who is chief AI scientist at the AI Now Institute, about the tech industry’s shift toward AI military applications. I wanted to know what’s motivated this shift, and why Heidy thinks leading AI firms are being far too cavalier about deploying generative AI in high-risk scenarios. Links: OpenAI is softening its stance on military use | The Verge OpenAI awarded $200 million US defense contract | The Verge OpenAI is partnering with defense tech company Anduril | The Verge Anthropic launches new Claude service for military and intelligence use | The Verge Anthropic, Palantir, Amazon team up on defense AI | Axios Google scraps promise not to develop AI weapons | The Verge Microsoft employees occupy headquarters in protest of Israel contracts | The Verge Microsoft’s employee protests have reached a boiling point | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Guest host Hank Green talks with his friend Dropout CEO Sam Reich about keeping a business simple, trying to run a company the “right way,” and why the internet should be full of as many weird little projects as possible. Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links:  How CollegeHumor reinvented itself for the new internet age | People CollegeHumor shaped online comedy. What went wrong? [2020] | Wired ‘I believe in this enough to try to do it myself’ [2020] | Digiday Jacob Wysocki needed a minute to process that Game Changer | Vulture Game Changer smartly weaponizes its online following | Mashable Vimeo CEO Philip Moyer is betting on the human touch | Decoder Vimeo to be acquired by Bending Spoons for $1.38B | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Verge senior AI reporter Hayden Field and New York Times reporter Kashmir Hill discuss the significant mental health impact AI chatbots, such as ChatGPT, can have on users — both people in crisis, and also people who seemed stable. This episode contains non-detailed discussions of suicide and mental illness. If you or someone you know is in crisis, considering self-harm, or needs to talk, please call the Lifeline at 988. Links:  A teen was suicidal. ChatGPT was the friend he confided in. | New York Times Sam Altman says ChatGPT will stop talking about suicide with teens | The Verge Chatbots can go into a delusional spiral. Here’s how. | New York Times Why is ChatGPT telling people to email me? | New York Times They asked an AI chatbot questions. The answers sent them spiraling. | New York Times She is in love with ChatGPT | The New York Times ‘I feel like I’m going crazy’: ChatGPT fuels delusional spirals | Wall Street Journal Meta, OpenAI face FTC inquiry on chatbots’ impact on kids | Bloomberg Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Hank Green, the cofounder of Complexly. I’m back for my second guest hosting spot here on Decoder while Nilay is out on parental leave. Today, I’m talking with Digitas CEO Amy Lanzi, who runs a major marketing and ad agency. You might remember Amy; Nilay interviewed her for Decoder live at an event in New York City almost a year ago. But Nilay, who runs what might be the last website on Earth, has a very different perspective on the world of digital marketing than I do. So as a career YouTuber, I had a lot of questions for someone in a position like Amy’s.  Links:  Digitas unveils new generative AI platform, Digitas AI |  Digitas Amy Lanzi on steering Digitas through the demands of modern marketing | Sightly Introducing Reddit Community Intelligence | Reddit Digitas North America announces Amy Lanzi as CEO | Digitas Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath. For my final episode as your Thursday episode guest host, I recently sat down with Bret Taylor, the CEO of AI startup Sierra and the chairman of OpenAI, for a live event in San Francisco hosted by Alix Partners.  Bret has worked at Google, Facebook, and Salesforce in high-level, executive roles, and he led Twitter’s board during Elon Musk’s takeover, so very few people have seen the tech industry up close like Bret has. Now, he’s all in on AI. We covered a lot of ground in this conversation, and I hope you find Bret’s perspective as fascinating as I did. Links: Ex-Salesforce co-CEO Bret Taylor’s Sierra is the latest $10 billion AI startup | CNBC I talked to Sam Altman about the GPT-5 launch fiasco | Verge Sam Altman says ‘yes,’ AI is in a bubble | Verge MIT study on AI profits rattles tech investors | Axios GPT-5 Pro can prove new, interesting mathematics | Sebastien Bubeck AI chatbots are ready to talk to customers. Sort of. | WSJ How is AI different than other technology waves? | Acquired Podcast Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Hank Green, cofounder of Complexly. You might remember last year when I turned the tables on Nilay and interviewed him on his own show. That was a ton of fun, and it was so much fun that they’ve brought me back again. This time, I’m stepping in for Nilay to host the next few Decoder episodes while he’s out on parental leave.  Today, I’m talking with a very special guest: Sal Khan, the founder and CEO of Khan Academy. Sal was actually Nilay’s second-ever guest on Decoder, back in 2020. And well, a whole lot has changed since then. So I wanted to have Sal back on to ask what it’s like running Khan Academy today, in the aftermath of the pandemic. But also how online learning is about to change, in really dramatic ways, due to artificial intelligence. Links:  Sal Khan on A.I.'s promise and its risks | NBC News (YouTube) The best-case scenario for AI in schools | BBC News Meet Khanmigo: the student tutor AI being tested in schools | 60 Minutes| 60 Minutes Remote learning is here to stay — can we make it better? | Decoder Hank Green makes Nilay Patel explain why websites have a future | Decoder In classrooms, teachers put AI tutoring bots to the test | NYT Elite colleges have found a new virtue for applicants to fake | NYT Everyone Is cheating their way through college | New York Magazine Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Despite being one of the most valuable companies in the world, OpenAI is still technically a nonprofit. That’s what set the stage for the dramatic board coup in 2023 that briefly ousted Sam Altman as CEO. And now, OpenAI is trying to shake this nonprofit structure so it can raise even more money and, eventually, go public. There’s a lot at stake here, and not just for OpenAI. Links:  OpenAI abandons plans to become a for-profit company | Verge Why California’s AG must continue investigation into OpenAI | CalMatters An open letter to OpenAI | EyesOnOpenAI OpenAI eyes $50B valuation in potential employee share sale | Reuters OpenAI thinks its critics are funded by billionaires | San Francisco Standard Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, and welcome to Decoder! This is Senior Producer Nick Statt. We’re on a small break for the end of summer, and, sadly, Nilay will still be out a little while longer when we come back. But we have an excellent slate of guest host episodes starting up next month, so stay tuned for those.  In the meantime, we wanted to bring back one of our favorite Decoder interviews from earlier this year. It’s with Bookshop CEO Andy Hunter, who back in January launched a pretty bold ebook initiative to take on Amazon and Kindle. It’s been about seven months, but Bookshop has seen big results, including more than $1 million in ebook sales. So we thought it was a good time to revisit our conversation with Andy.   Links:  Bookshop.org reports 65% growth, e-books add $1 Million in sales | Publishers Weekly Bookshop CEO Andy Hunter’s crusade to save books from Amazon | Decoder Bookshop.org is launching an ebook store to take on Amazon | Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello! Decoder senior producer Kate Cox here. I’m afraid I’m still not Nilay, but I hope you’ve been enjoying our series of guest hosts this summer while he’s out on parental leave. We have a few more really great guest episodes coming up, before Nilay returns to the host chair later this fall, so stay tuned. The production team is taking our own break this week, so while we’re off we’re excited to share this episode of The Gray Area with you. Students all over the country — including my own kids, thank goodness — are back in school right around now, and so we thought it would be a perfect time to revisit host Sean Illing talking with journalist James Walsh about how AI tools like ChatGPT have kicked off a new cheating arms race that’s proving extremely disruptive to college education.  There are a lot of big Decoder ideas — and problems — wrapped up in all this. Okay, The Gray Area, with Sean Illing. Enjoy.  Links: If AI can do your classwork, why go to college? | The Gray Area Everyone Is cheating their way through college | New York Magazine How to get students to stop using AI | Verge I used the ‘cheat on everything’ AI tool and it didn’t help me cheat on anything | Verge Inside the frat-bro startup that wants you to ‘cheat on everything' | SF Standard A new headache for honest students: proving they didn’t use AI | NYT Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath, your Thursday episode guest host and deputy editor at The Verge. One of the biggest topics in AI these days is agents — the idea that AI is going to move from chatbots to reliably completing tasks for us in the real world. But the problem with agents is that they really aren’t all that reliable right now. There’s a lot of work happening in the AI industry to try and fix that, and that brings me to my guest today: David Luan, the head of Amazon’s AGI research lab, a cofounder of Adept, and a former VP of engineering at OpenAI. David and I discussed the release of GPT-5, what Amazon wants with agents, and where he thinks the AI race is headed next. Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links:  The Platonic Representation Hypothesis | Phillip Isola Amazon plays catch-up with new Nova models to generate voices, video | Verge Amazon’s new AI agent is designed to do your shopping | Verge Microsoft is racing to build an AI ‘agent factory’ | Verge OpenAI’s new ChatGPT Agent can control an entire computer | Verge 24 hours with Alexa Plus: we cooked, we chatted, and it kinda lied to me | Verge Why AI researchers are getting paid like NBA All-Stars | Decoder OpenAI’s Windsurf deal is off — and Windsurf’s CEO is going to Google | Verge This is Big Tech’s playbook for swallowing the AI industry | Command Line Amazon hires founders away from AI startup Adept | TechCrunch Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Obsidian is a note-taking and productivity app that occupies the same "second brain" space as competitors like Notion — but in a lot of ways, it's also startlingly different. Obsidian's files are Markdown-based, stored locally on your own devices, and completely free to use. Steph Ango, the CEO, is also different in a lot of ways: He's not an Obsidian founder, but instead came to the role from being basically a member of the fan development community. His take on software, productivity, and business is refreshingly old-fashioned in a lot of good ways, while he's also leading a very 21st century startup.  Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links:  I’m joining Obsidian as CEO | Obsidian Blog About Obsidian (Manifesto) | Obsidian Narvar acquires Lumi (2021) | Narvar  After 15 years whipping the llama’s ass, Winamp shuts down | TechCrunch Notion’s Ivan Zhao wants you to demand better from your tools | Decoder Book Review: “What I Talk About When I Talk About Running” | National Geographic Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt; our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath, your Thursday episode guest host and deputy editor at The Verge. Today, I’m talking to a very special guest: Nick Turley, OpenAI’s head of ChatGPT.  While Sam Altman is definitely the public face of OpenAI, Nick has been leading ChatGPT’s development since the very beginning, and it’s now the fastest-growing software product of all time with more than 700 million weekly users. So, Nick and I talk about the backlash against OpenAI’s removal of its GPT-4o model, the future of ChatGPT itself, solving hallucinations, and why he thinks it eventually won’t look like a chatbot at all.  Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links:  ChatGPT won’t remove old models without warning after GPT-5 backlash | Verge ChatGPT is bringing back 4o as an option because people missed it | Verge GPT-5 is being released to all ChatGPT users | Verge The 6 biggest changes coming to ChatGPT | Verge ChatGPT has 20 million paying subscribers | Verge Elon Musk says he’s suing Apple for rigging App Store rankings | Verge OpenAI’s ChatGPT to hit 700 million weekly users | CNBC Chatbots can go into a delusional spiral. Here’s how it happens | NYT ChatGPT gave instructions for murder, self-mutilation, and devil worship | The Atlantic ‘I feel like I’m going crazy’: ChatGPT fuels delusional spirals | WSJ Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Casey Newton, founder and editor of Platformer and cohost of the Hard Fork podcast. This is the second episode of my productivity-focused Decoder series I’m doing while Nilay is out on parental leave. Today, I’m talking with Notion cofounder and CEO Ivan Zhao. I’ve followed Notion for quite some time now — I’m a big fan, and I use Notion as part of my workflow with Platformer. So I was very excited to get Ivan on the show to discuss his philosophy on productivity, how he’s grown his company over the last decade, and where he sees the space going in the future.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Introducing Notion AI for Work | Notion Notion Mail is a minimalist but powerful take on email | Verge Notion’s new Q&A feature lets you ask an AI about your notes | Verge Notion takes on AI notetakers with its own transcription feature | TechCrunch The impossible dream of good workplace software | Decoder When AI has better taste than you | Julie Zhuo / The Looking Glass Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was editor by Xander Adams.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath, deputy editor at The Verge. My guest today is GitHub CEO Thomas Dohmke. In many ways, GitHub Copilot set off the current AI coding boom. But since Thomas was on the show a year ago, the rise of vibe coding has shifted the buzz to newer platforms like Cursor and Windsurf. As you’ll hear in our conversation, Thomas is thinking a lot about the competition, and GitHub’s role in the future of software development.  Links: Developers, Reinvented | Thomas Dohmke / GitHub Developer Odyssey | Thomas Dohmke / GitHub Why tech is racing to adopt AI coding, with Cursor’s Michael Truell | Decoder GitHub CEO Thomas Dohmke says AI needs competition to thrive | ⁠⁠Decoder⁠⁠ Up to 30 percent of some Microsoft code is now written by AI | Verge GitHub launches its AI app-making tool in preview | Verge Microsoft is getting ready for GPT-5 with a new Copilot smart mode | Verge Zuckerberg: AI will write most Meta code within 18 months | Engadget Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Casey Newton, founder and editor of the Platformer newsletter and cohost of the Hard Fork podcast. I’ll be guest hosting the next few episodes of Decoder while Nilay is out on parental leave. For the next three weeks, I’ll be talking to leaders in the productivity space about what they’re building, and how they can help us get things done.  My guest today: Michael Truell, the CEO of Anysphere, the maker of automated programming platform Cursor AI. I sat down with Michael to talk about his product and how it works, why coding with AI has seen such incredible adoption, and what the future of automated programming really looks like.  Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links:  Anysphere, hailed as fastest growing startup ever, raises $900 Million | Bloomberg AI coding assistant Cursor draws a million users without even trying | Bloomberg Anthropic rehires AI leaders from Anysphere | The Information Cursor apologizes for unclear pricing changes that upset users | TechCrunch OpenAI looked at buying Cursor creator before turning to rival Windsurf | CNBC Interview with Anysphere CEO Michael Truell about coding with AI | Stratechery Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath, your Thursday episode guest host and deputy editor at The Verge. Today I'm joined by Hayden Field, The Verge’s new senior AI reporter to talk about the AI talent wars and why some researchers are suddenly getting traded like their NBA superstars. Both Hayden and I have been reporting on this for the past several weeks to get a sense of much these companies are paying for top talent, why Big Tech firms like Google are opting to hire instead of acquire, and what it means that some of the most sought-after AI experts in the world are no longer motivated by money alone.  Links:  OpenAI’s Windsurf deal is off — and Windsurf’s CEO is going to Google | Verge Mark Zuckerberg promises you can trust him with superintelligent AI | Verge Meta is trying to win the AI race with money — but not everyone can be bought | Verge Meta says it’s winning the talent war with OpenAI | Command Line Google gets its swag back | Command Line The AI talent wars are just getting started | Command Line Meta tried to buy Safe Superintelligence, hired its CEO instead | CNBC Apple loses top AI models executive to Meta’s hiring spree | Bloomberg Meta’s AI recruiting campaign finds a new target | Wired Anthropic hires back two AI leaders from Anysphere | The Information Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is CNBC journalist Jon Fortt. This is the last episode I’ll be guest-hosting for Nilay while he’s out on parental leave. My guest today is Richard Robinson, who is the cofounder and CEO of legal tech startup Robin AI.  Richard is a corporate lawyer-turned-startup founder working on AI tools for the legal profession. But law and AI have not mixed well. So I wanted to ask Richard about hallucinations, how lawyers can use AI today, and what it will really take to place our trust in an AI lawyer. Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links:  Legal tech startup Robin AI raises another $25 million | Fortune Why do lawyers keep using ChatGPT? | Verge Judge slams lawyers for ‘bogus AI-generated research’ | Verge Lawyers using AI must heed ethics rules, ABA says in first formal guidance | Reuters Lawyers fined for submitting bogus case law created by ChatGPT | AP The ChatGPT lawyer explains himself | NYT Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath, your Thursday episode guest host. Today I'm talking with Gaurav Misra, the CEO of Captions. You may not have heard of Captions yet, but by now, you’ve probably seen a video that was generated using its AI models. The company’s Mirage Studio platform lets anyone generate AI versions of real people, and the results are alarmingly realistic.  Captions just put out a blog post titled, “We Build Synthetic Humans. Here’s What’s Keeping Us Up at Night.” It’s a good overview of the state of deepfakes and where they’re headed. So Gauraav and I sat down to discuss the trajectory of deepfake technology and what might be done to prevent it from being misused.  Links:  We build synthetic humans. Here’s what’s keeping us up at night | Captions Google’s Veo 3 AI video generator is a slop monger’s dream | Verge Gemini AI can now turn photos into videos | Verge Trump just unveiled his plan to put AI in everything | Verge Racist videos made with AI are going viral on TikTok | Verge Microsoft wants Congress to outlaw AI-generated deepfake fraud | Verge YouTube is supporting the ‘No Fakes Act’ targeting unauthorized AI replicas | Verge This Tom Cruise impersonator is using deepfake tech to impressive ends | Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices