Jessup Think

Mark and Rex are joined by their award winning student associate producer, Matthew Todd, to recap the highlights of season 3. TRANSCRIPT 0:01 Everyone welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore 0:04 and your co-host Rex Gurney and resident minion, Matthew, Todd, 0:07 and Rex and Matthew, we are excited today. This is Season Three finales. And this is our final one before we go into summer reruns. And we're just going to look back at the show, and we're going to introduce you maybe more to the minion in the room. Mr. Matthew, just show you the reach 0:25 of Jessup Think. Actually, I connected with one of my former seminary friends is living outside of DC and they've been there forever. And I mentioned that you have podcasts and so he listened to all season three backwards, he said, 0:39 Oh, there we go. Well, we hope you enjoy the season three finale. 0:43 Yeah. Well, if you're listening then and I can, I can spread it to my new place, too. 0:48 So where's your new place? So here 0:50 what we have, we have to have a break for them to and then we'll start the episode. You know what I'm saying? Like that was the intro. So we can tailor if you're listening after the enjoy season three finale, you can you can go into the music and then 1:08 oh, yeah, okay. 1:10 I forgot we're pros here. 1:11 Yeah, we just 1:13 so Pro that we gave him extra content to work with 1:15 just more content. So now we'll start the podcast portion of the show. 1:29 Rex and Matt, so glad to have you. That might be the first time I've ever called you, man in my life. 1:35 I feel like one of those things that you wipe your feet on when you come into someone's house. 1:39 That's true. Do you prefer Matthew? I do. 1:42 However, I think you know, being Matt is sort of biblical, because you're supposed to be humble and let everybody walk. 1:51 In a sense, doormats, right, they wash your feet, and when one manner of speaking if you kind of wipe your shoes on it, you know, and that's that's what Jesus would do. 1:59 And you know, that is why Matthew Todd our associate, slash minion, hear the podcast was one of the most distinguished Jessup graduates when one of our highest award he was you can just see there's just Biblical stuff dripping all over him. Right, 2:16 right. Yeah, that's right. He's an award winning graduate of Jessup for this last year. And the reason he's on the show for the last year, he's been our kind of associate producer, helping helping the show helping us with social media. Amen. 2:31 Amen. And finally, being the spur that we needed to actually get T shirts and we made the two years after he made the T shirts happen, 2:39 you can probably hear it, but I'm wearing it right now. Let me just give you a little sound a little sneak preview. 2:43 We heard that T shirt in the wind. Well, yeah, so you graduated. And where? Where are you going? What's life after Jessup? 2:53 So I got my degree in biology, and I am going to start pharmacy school in the fall and the University of Florida at their Orlando campus. So very excited about that. I'll be leaving in less than two months. 3:07 There you go. See, look at look what can happen with a Jessup grand now here on the West Coast, get a biology degree 3:15 and then go directly to what second string Promised Land Texas is first string but but Florida is pretty close. 3:24 Now I had to go I had to rank the promised lands, you know? 3:27 Yeah. Great. University of Florida pharmacy school. 3:32 That sounds good. Yeah. 30 minutes from Disney World, basically. Hey, there you go. Yeah, dealing drugs, 3:37 you're gonna have to be an official drug dealer. 3:41 But for my street cred for the for the podcast. I have to mention, I also graduated with a Bible minor. Very much like every single other exact transfer of Jessup, who graduates but so 3:53 I mean, you did win the award a graduation, you won our highest male Graduate Award, I 3:59 believe, right. Yeah. That's called the founder award, the founder or which means I'm, I guess that means I'm like William Jessup, but I've never met him. So hopefully, that's like a good thing. 4:09 You do get your name on a plaque somewhere. I think 4:13 it has John Jackson's thumbprint on it. Okay. I think I can maybe save that and sell it or something. Yeah, get 4:18 a piece of tape. You know, St. Peter's asking for that. I've heard at the pearly gates. 4:22 So I know he's like, Well, 4:25 like here, I'm a Founders Award. Because you embody the spirit of Bill Jessen. 4:30 Oh, wow. Yeah. I never even knew him. Did you guys ever meet the founder? No, no, I didn't assume 4:36 more. Yeah, it was son, his grandson, actually. Yeah. Yeah. So when you were hired here, Mark was was Bryce still president? Yeah. 4:45 It was it was his last year 2010 Wow. 4:49 I remember when I was first hired. I was walking across the old campus with Bryce Jessup and he said he was really I don't know if I should be saying this on the podcast, but he cuz I was really glad I was at Jessup because he wanted me to try to set some people theologically straight on campus. 5:06 Oh, there we go. He's talking about but coming in as the Enforcer, I 5:11 guess. 5:12 Yeah. And we'll assume that you did that, you know, I don't know. I believe it set him right. Or maybe they're gone now. And they've never been heard from again. Exactly. That is kind of enforcement. That's how it works. And I Bryce gave them kind of a wink. And then Rex is like, Alright, I'm gonna figure out what that means. Well, we 5:29 actually have some brutal faculty meetings back in the day, as far as professors yelling at each other about whether we were an Arminian or a Calvinist school. Oh, I remember of theology professor almost jumping up on a table and just screaming and everybody, because there was a little bit of Calvinists talk that he was very uncomfortable with. Oh, that was years ago, though. Yeah, the good thing is we don't do that. And I've 5:52 repented of that. 5:55 An earlier version. The bad thing is that, you know, maybe we don't take theology seriously enough to jump on tables and screaming at each other anymore. I've lost something. 6:05 Yeah, we've lost a little bit of the passion. Yeah, a little bit of the passion 6:08 and even read those stories, because supposedly, that's a pretty common thing with theology like meetings, they can get really heated about their, what they're talking about, there was someone talking about how the serpent would have moved before it slid on its belly, and somebody got mad, and at the accusation that supposedly it could bounce like a pogo stick, and they were getting really, really angry, and irate. And it's like, recorded somebody, like, typed down all the things they said, quote, 6:34 I got transcripts. 6:35 I did not know that. I didn't know the full knowledge that I had never happened. Yeah, definitely. Good. We 6:41 have. So as a snake could pogo stick before? Before the temptation? Yeah, 6:48 because the curse was that he now had this. 6:50 Yeah, maybe that's maybe that's what made him so intriguing to Adam and Eve that he just didn't. Yeah, you're like, Wait, what is this snake doing? Amazing. See theology? Well, I'm one of the purposes of the podcast is to help make theology a little bit, you know, more accessible, more accessible part of the conversation. So you're learning stuff. And just, you know, we did have a pretty amazing season, you know, looking back on the guests we were able to, to get, and it was our first season having an associate producer, student producer. So thank you, Maddie Todd, for all of your work. But even starting out at the gates, cause our seasons go from September to the end of June. And then July and August are always reruns. So we'll pull some of our best shows from season three. And we'll play him as reruns this summer sort of greatest? Yeah, exactly. And we were able to, we kind of started off season three with Caitlin shez, who's author of the liturgy of politics. And I think on that one I was, you were out of town. So I was able to actually, it was excellent. I think it's gonna be one of our one of our reruns, because she just had an amazing way of talking about that. For one, everything in our lives is political. So when you try to say like, No, I'm not trying, I'm not political. Almost every decision we make has, has some type of political ramification or, you know, and so it's like, hey, instead of distancing ourselves saying, okay, life is political. What does that mean? What does that mean to be a faithful Christian in in politics? And not not just in she kind of strays away from like, partisan politics, but just in politics? What does it mean to be a Christian and to be faithful in that, so really helpful. Went from Caitlin chest to Priscilla Pope Leveson, who we had her husband, Jack Lovcen on in her book, models of Revelation, our models, how we say that models revelation, because that's the Avery Dulles that she based it on models of evangelism. And I thought that was it was really helpful book because I had not thought of the different ways of evangelism in that way. And the categorization was good, and it also made me I am pretty skeptical of kind of the cold calling evangelism. Oh, yes. 9:31 I remember in seminary, we actually, we actually had to go to the beach and annoy people. I remember doing that. I think, yeah, I did it. I did it. And I did it. I did it. Yeah. We used to walk around basically, you know, with a question if I mean, you know, you know, the question, this is a nice goal, right? Yes. Like if, if you were to be run over by a bus Do you know? Like, that's the best question we can come up with 10:00 You have the best starter, 10:01 and I did in like summer camp, we would ask what what do you think happens when you die? And I rememb

Historian Abigail Feely joins the show to discuss the importance of studying history, especially giving voice to marginalized histories.

Founder and President of Fidelis International Seminary, Frank Schattner, joins the show to talk about the his project of making a low cost seminary-style education accessible to people all over the globe. Check out fidelisproject.com for more information.

Mark and Rex examine the complexities of the process of deconstruction while offering some helpful guides on one's journey of faith.

Long-time Intervarsity staff member Susie Veon joins the show to talk about her experience of the Jesus movement in the late 1960s and early 70s.

Authors Matt Tebbe and Ben Sternke join the show to talk about their book Having the Mind of Christ. Matt and Ben explore what they have had to unlearn and relearn from Jesus about what it means to be a Christian.

Liturgist Karl Gurney joins the show to talk about worship and faith within the Catholic church in a post Pope Benedict XVI world.

Licensed professional counselor Krispin Mayfield joins the show to discuss his book on attachment styles and the spiritual life.

Dr. Amy Peeler from Wheaton College joins the show to discuss her new book Women and the Gender of God. Dr. Peeler explores how our understanding of gender affects how we relate to God and how we relate to others.

Founder and Executive Director of The Alliance: Defending the Cause of Kids & Families, Tiffany Loeffler, joins the show to talk about her work with foster youth as well as her work at Jessup with the OnRamp scholarship fund.

Dr. Damon Horton from California Baptist University joins the show to talk about his approach to conversations on race as a preview to his lecture on campus at Jessup on February 9.

Renown author Richard Foster joins the show along with Brenda Quinn to talk about Richard's new book: Learning Humility: A Year of Searching for a Vanishing Virtue. This is a great way to start 2023! TRANSCRIPT 0:00 Hey everyone. Welcome to Jessup Think. I'm your host Mark Moore and 0:03 your co host, Rex gurney. 0:05 And Rex, I could not be more excited. I know I've been excited about a lot of podcasts. But I am so excited about our guests. Today we have Richard Foster, on the show, along with Brenda Quinn, who kind of helped him and helped him write this new book called Learning humility. But I've been a fan of Richard foster since college, and he really impacted my spiritual life in a really direct and real way that continues to impact me. So I'm so excited to see him have a new book out of that VP, and beyond excited to have him on the show. And we hope you enjoy this episode as well. 0:50 But definitely, Richard and Brendan want to welcome you onto the show. We're really excited to have you both on the show. Rex and I are big fans. And so we're just really, really excited when we saw the we're not personally when I saw the book come across my desk, I knew for one that I wanted to read it and would just love the opportunity to talk with you Richard more more about the book. So thank you so much for you and Brenda joining us on the show. 1:19 And actually, so Richard's book is learning humility. And so about 38 years ago, you came in gave a series of lectures at the seminary, I was going to at the time, I think it's like 3837 35, whatever. And I have to say, Richard, I don't remember a single thing about those lectures. But But there's actually a point to this story. But I do remember you were out I guess we used to call it jogging, but I guess you would call it running now you are not running on campus. This is a Golden Gate Seminary in Marin County. Yeah, sure. 1:53 I remember. Yeah. And 1:55 well, you probably don't remember. Anyway, so I was walking from the the apartments to class and you're out jogging. And we were the only two people on the Hill. And of course, you kept on jogging. But I remember just your your greeting and your wave as you went by. And I'm thinking, you know, this is a guy who already has a lot of positive notoriety. He's already basically famous. And I actually and I'm not just saying this is a fanboy, Richard, but I really felt validated as a human being that you know, you you, like, notice to me. A lot of people don't have that kind of humility when when they have your, your notoriety. And so that always impressed me don't remember the lectures, but I do remember you and that little 32nd encounter. 2:44 Well, I'm down to walking nowadays. Need to Know, on on, first of January, New Year's Day, my youngest son and I did a little 5k. And there was a wonderful 1000 folks out there. And I came in second in my age group. Of course, there was only two of us signed up for 3:23 I'm impressed. 3:24 Yeah, that's perfect ice. My strategy was to start at the very back of the pack. And I was determined to stay there. And I succeeded. Yeah, 3:38 we just success. Yeah. Yeah. 3:45 Brenda Quinn is with us on the podcast, too. So Brenda, are you a runner? Or you know, 3:51 I'm really not a runner, but I am definitely a walker. Okay, wait, you know, walking in Colorado is wonderful. We have a lot of sunny days and a lot of beauty here. And I love to be outside. I'm just really not a runner, but love to be out walking. 4:03 I'd run from New Mexico, 4:06 as well with a family. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Notice 4:10 that in the book, actually. Some of the meditations um, that kind of came from that. Yeah. 4:16 Yeah. Seemed like a lot of most of the meditations came from walks that you were on Richard and kind of walking through the snow or walking before the snow would come. But but they are slow walks. Okay, I'm buying Yeah, and with with the book. And Brenda with you joining us too. We'd love for our listeners to kind of hear a little bit of your role as Richard was, was writing the book. 4:49 Yeah, well, he started this probably about three years ago and had a few friends and different people he'd worked with, you know, over time. him that he asked, I have this book idea and just wondering if you all would be willing to kind of read along with me as I make some notes and see if this might someday turn into a book and just give me your responses. And I was one of those people. So I got to start on that journey pretty, quite close to the beginning with Richard and just read kind of month by month, chapter by chapter as he, it really did start forming into a book. And we got to just journey with him on that. That road of the book being created, and it's, it was great, you got to have a lot of responses to him. And you know, as I'm sure it did, for both of you, it just generated so many thoughts and convictions and stories in my own life and experiences. And I'm a pastor in a church here in the Denver area. And so just I'm working with people all the time. And so all of these issues are just very prominent, and so easy to think about and talk about and ponder. Yeah, and so 6:00 the book is 6:01 good. Brenda has written a number of things and okay, is a pastor of spiritual formation, and a wonderful congregation. And I felt that she brought a lot I mean, her questions, her challenges, and, and encouragement even. I didn't know if this was worth, you know, getting in print. But 6:37 well, it definitely is definitely, as both of us feel that very, very strongly. So your book, Richard kind of organized, for those of our listeners who haven't picked it up yet, and we hope that they do very, very soon after they listen to the podcast if they haven't bought it yet. But it's organized around the Lakota calendar, and Lakota virtues. And could you speak to us a little bit about how the genesis of that 7:00 that was almost accidental, in a sense, because I just thought that, you know, the Latin Gregorian calendar, January, February, March felt a little, I don't know, stilted, and I just looked around. And my own background is part of it is Ojibwa. And I love their calendar. But I was drawn to the Lakota calendar, northern Native American peoples. And so I thought, why not, and follow that calendar. And then, and I, and I made use of the Christian calendar as well to make these things and, and I was writing in a sort of journal style, and almost stream of consciousness. I mean, I would, as you mentioned, go for a hike and think about these things. And I would experience this or research that and it allowed me to, just, and also I was thinking of, you know, the difficulty in our day of people, you know, the difficulty of concentration, then all of the internet and everything has made it more difficult for sustain thought and I thought, well, let's try a style that moves in, in small pieces. And but but can we keep a steady thought? All through the book of one subject, and not one of the most basic of the virtues humility, right, which, all through the Christian centuries has been highly regarded, except for our century. Where, 9:15 yeah, yeah, the cult of Christian celebrity doesn't help with, with humility 9:23 to take that on. And celebrity and the whole culture. I mean, all right. I remember when I was writing my first book, celebration of discipline, I was in a rural area, and I remember taking a break and looking down the hill and was watching a farmer. He was a dairy farmer, and I just kind of watched him for a while. And I thought, Oh, my, his skill is amazing. I had to go down and get his autograph, and then realized, that is in our day. If we don't do that kind of thing for years, it's, you know, whatever. And, and I thought my, that's kind of a strange thing because he was skilled and just lovely ways. And I got acquainted with him and, and met him and yeah, it was fun 10:26 I like that I like that I really appreciated was the book that you focused on learning humility, that use that verb not acquiring humility or developing. And I'd love to Yeah, to kind of hear hear from you why, maybe why you feel because I feel this, why it's so difficult to learn virtues, or why learning is an important part of that 10:55 it is, here's the thing, and we it's one of the reasons, specifically, I had asked Brenda to do these with me, because the last thing we want, is an expert in humility. Right? We're all beginners at this. And, and in Brenda's case, been able to watch it in, in so many people. You know, I don't know, Brenda, the congregation has 500 or so but you know, a good number of people. And, and, and you just see that immense variety of people who, some who have no idea that this is even a virtue or something we see or think about. And so that's, and there is no other way to approach this most foundational of the virtues than coming as a learner. I mean, I mean, we must be teachable. That's the free step in humility. Right, Brenda, maybe you could talk a little about your congregation, and how this works there? 12:26 Well, I think, you know, when we're working with people, in like a ministry environment, you you just realize how much all of us, it doesn't matter where where we are in our walk with Jesus, all of us are immersed in a culture, you know, the culture that we live in here in the West, which really isn't, doesn't have humility, as much of a part of it at all. And it doesn't matter who we are, and how mature we are in our walk, we get affected by the culture that we live in. So that's one piece. And then, you know, people people aren't as familiar with God's word anymore, as maybe as Christians used to be in past eras. And so I don't know that they encounter that, you know, Jesus words, and Paul's words and the Old Testaments words about humility, and the importance of it. And I do think that the the more we walk with Jesus, the

Mark and Rex wish everyone a Merry Christmas and happy New Year by sharing stories from their past which include a Christmas Eve in a Columbian jail and a nefarious BB gun. TRANSCRIPT 0:02 Welcome to Jessup Think. I'm your host Mark Moore and your co host Rex Gurney. And Rex today is our Christmas episode. And we're just inviting our listeners into the living room that is our studio with the fire going. And the hot chocolate and the 0:20 little Christmas tree in the corner. Yes, with our favorite ornaments on there. We've got the whole thing going here 0:24 to get it. And we're just going to kind of share Yeah, or kind of favorite Christmas memories and also talk about maybe the tougher side of Christmas as well. Right 0:34 right, because Christmas is a season light that for many people, it can be a dark time until we do want to acknowledge that and just talk a little bit about that. 0:44 So we hope you enjoy this Christmas episode and and I hope as as your Christmas has just come and gone that this will help you relive some of your Christmas memories 1:02 and speaking of Christmas memories, I'm sure you have some I heard that you have one involving a BB gun. 1:08 Oh yeah, I'm interested. So yeah, so if we yeah, we can start with with my with mine. You know, it's a little bit similar to not quite exact, but it's you know, it's similar to the Christmas Story movie, which is one of my favorite Christmas movies. I mean, I have I have a very long list but that I have some traditional Christmas Eve at our house. Do ya always always wait to do Christmas day? Oh, can we watch it a couple times couple of times on Christmas Day. But it is set so Christmas story is set in Indiana. And I was born and raised in Indiana now Christmas story I think is set like in the 1940s and I think it 1:45 was filmed I mean it looks suspiciously like Cleveland yeah 1:49 it actually was filmed in Cleveland Ohio they're still the house that they still there and they actually someone bought it and then turn it into a museum so Oh wow. So someone's house Oh wow. 2:01 Well kind of like in Albuquerque where I grew up the Breaking Bad house actually. Yes. tourist attraction not quite the same thing as a Christmas story but we didn't 2:11 we do what we can games similar themes. And and obviously if you're familiar with Christmas Story, the main thing is it Ralphie once red Ryder BB gun. And and I was it was probably Christmas in the early 80s early to mid 80s I was probably you know eight, eight years old eight or nine and my brother closest to me and age are only 18 months apart and we shared a room with him and I that Christmas our big gift was a BB gun Okay, and and I remember my parents kind of asking us I don't think I knew I didn't know the the ins and outs of BB guns versus pellet guns and all that. And I remember them asking us like hey, do you want do you want a BB gun or a pellet gun? And and I was just kind of like maybe because of Christmas store and all that I was like I just want a BB gun. 3:09 So what is the difference? I mean, I come from household Yes. 3:14 Of any type what's what's interesting is these BB guns that we got for Christmas were the only weapons in our house because all we had and but a pellet gun. So BB gun just shoots like the round BB BB pellet gun shoots it's more of a like a cylinder. It's small but it's maybe more bullet ish. Okay and so and you can usually the pellet guns you can shoot at higher power so you could actually do some damage with a pellet yeah like you could actually hunt like a rabbit or something okay pellet gun like depending on how good of a shot you are and all that how big the rabbit is. Yeah. And he was no I was yeah, I I one time shot at field mouse with my friend and then how did you stop trying to get him break down oh, 4:05 I tried to get an image in my head of Mark more stalking of field males when 4:09 we were we were in the field and there was a bunch of like plywood and it was wasn't maybe a field that was used as maybe a back you know, just overgrown back yard. And there was plywood down so we would walk up to the plywood and we would just flip it over really fast and there'd be all these mice underneath can we would and got one and then I was like shooting fish in a barrel. And I had I had a deep kind of like moral reckoning that night as you should have. I was like I don't feel good about that. And that's the only thing I've ever shot. Okay. Besides frogs we also shoot frogs in a creek. But but this is so that's after I get began Okay, leading leading up to it. This is kind of I don't even think most people might say And we know this story. 5:01 So are we watching the moral degradation in? Yes, it starts more here. Yeah, 5:05 it starts with so so I just said I want a BB gun. I think my brother was like, I want a pellet gun, I want something bigger. And this is something my brother and I would do often leading up to Christmas is that we can never wait to like we always tried to look and find where the gifts are. And and, and I was I was I was just say I could be honest here. I was kind of a sneaky child. I was the youngest so I was able to fly under the radar. Okay. I was the youngest quiet just nice and and just, I watched my other brothers and sisters rebel and get in trouble. And I just you know, I just kept things to myself, right. So I do remember one year we did my brother and I did actually peek into a bag and see a gift of my parents took it back like we didn't get it for Christmas. Like it was like a GI Joe aircraft carrier. Oh, man. Get it? And I'm like, dang. Nice. Pretty Yeah, hardcore. That was so but they don't they didn't know about this. So this this is this is quite the lead up. I promise you. It's worth it. I promise you. So does your family actually listen to our podcasts? Yeah, you know, if not, well, maybe maybe I can share this because they don't listen to it. Okay, I'm still trying to tell my dad how to get a podcast onto his phone. I so they were everyone was gone. I don't know where they were at. Maybe they were out Christmas shopping. And so I snuck into my parents room. And they had light blue, really soft carpet, as I remember from that room, and it's still in that room. I remember crawling across over to like, my mom's side of the bed, which is like kind of on the other side of the room. So I just crawled over and I just reached my hand under just to see if I could feel anything. And I felt I'd be weakened. Okay. And so I pulled it out and kind of looked at it. And it was a red Ryder BB gun. And I was like, oh, sweet, you know. And I was like, now I have to act like I don't know if I'm getting one. But then I also felt this other larger box was that. So I pulled out and it was my brother's pellet gun, which like was much bigger, just cooler looking. And I was like, oh, man, I should have said I wanted a pellet gun. So now I have this information. And so I talking to my parents, I'm like, Hey, you remember when I said I wanted a BB gun? Like I think I'm talking to Brian. I think I want I think I want a pellet gun. Oh my gosh, I switched it up on him. And this was like the week of Christmas, okay. And then I remember they I don't they had no clue. They're very trusting good hearted Midwesterners, and I was kind of conniving in this like now it's like back. And so we I remember, they took us to the store. And they had this bag that we couldn't look in. And then my mom distracted us while my dad went and returned the BB gun that they got me and got a pellet gun. So Christmas Day. We got two pellet guns that were matching. Oh, wow. And, and I've carried that with me. Shout out to brother did he ever know? I don't know. I don't think I told him until later. Okay. i Yeah, I was the only one that knew. And I I use that knowledge for evil. I 8:41 guess. So. Have you done that recently? Do you go around? Like trying to find out? 8:45 I do not. Yeah. Although I do appreciate I do like to. If gifts are wrapped, I do like to grab them and kind of shake them and see if I can guess like, I was pretty good. I was pretty good as a child being able to guess without Intel able to guess like Hey, I think this is you know, a Nintendo or so yeah, so that's my that's my, my kind of a Christmas story, but maybe less heartwarming that I manipulated my parents into getting a larger pellet gun. 9:23 So Mark, I don't even know if I want to continue this podcast right now. I'm so disappointed. disillusioned. 9:28 Sorry. I'm sorry. I had to confess I had to confess. Confession is good for the soul is good. Even though I don't think I have ever confess that to to my parents. 9:42 So live. We're not quite live but stay on the air right now. 9:46 Your dad Wow. It's you know, I wasn't Yeah, maybe wasn't quite the perfect son. 9:56 So now I'm not disillusioning, tears welling up Am I So Mark about your confession here. And 10:02 now Now while mine was. Well, my story's a little bit you now. Yeah, a little bit. The phrasing. Yeah. And the various I like that word. I hear you have a criminal, a criminal story of Christmas. 10:18 Well, one could spend it that way. 10:21 I feel like I don't need to spend it as make me not look like the bad guy. 10:25 Okay, so, in case y'all don't know. My story happens in Christmas of 1979. Okay, so, and I'm already in my early 20s. So I'm pretty much old enough to be Mark's grandfather right here. You'd see the salt and pepper beard and mine says not quite Santa Claus length, but but still. 10:48 That's not true. Maybe old enough to be a real like, I don't know. Yeah, Uncle uncle. No. Yeah. Okay. Okay. 10:55 You're good uncle. Yeah, except for this story. Right. Okay. Yeah. We're so this actually starts on 17. Yeah, starts on Christmas Eve 1979. right at the cusp of the new decade, and I'm in Colombia and South America. And so the family that I with, here's the

Dr. Winfield Bevins joins the show to talk about the connection of liturgy and mission. Points he highlights in his new book, Liturgical Mission: The Work of the People for the Life of the World. TRANSCRIPT 0:01 Welcome to Jessup Think. Im your host Mark Moore and your co host Rex Gurney wrecks on the show today we're excited to have Dr. Winfield Bevins from Asbury Theological Seminary. He is director of church planting there. And he's here to talk about his new book liturgical mission. 0:17 And I was really impressed with the book. And one reason was because he basically name checks every author that I read, and so it's got to be a good read if you do that. 0:25 Definitely. He's well read and just a really good voice on liturgy and worship and how that connects us and sends us out to mission. So I really hope you enjoy the show. 0:45 Yeah, Dr. Bevins is great to have you on the show. And really excited to kind of talk about your new book and looking at liturgy and mission bringing those two together. As we get started it would it be great to kind of hear your story. You're at Asbury seminary now working with church planning. So I'd love for you to kind of tell our listeners just a little bit about what you got going on in Kentucky. 1:10 Yeah, I I'm in Kentucky. And so prior to come in here, my wife and I planted a church in a little place called the Outer Banks, North Carolina little stretch islands. And 1:22 nowhere that is vacation land. Yeah. 1:25 Yeah. So I was a surfer, right. So I hung up my surfboard and moved to Kentucky. And we've been here about seven years now. And it's, it's really been amazing. So I oversee a global church planning initiative, where we've worked with, we've helped train over 1000 leaders in 20 different countries. And so I work with a lot of different models and expressions of church. But I'm also an Anglican in an Anglican priest. And so I have this love of liturgy and mission. And while I work with all across kind of the denominational spectrums of you know, all sorts of denominational backgrounds, I really have a passion for both of those things. And that's kind of the heart of kind of what comes together in that book. So, yeah, 2:19 so most of our students here actually don't come from traditions that most people would associate with them. liturgical traditions, although that word liturgy I mean, everyone has, we have a liturgy in chapel and same thing every single time. So, but one time, we actually had someone that you mentioned the book, Todd Hunter come in and a chapel here at Jessup. And it basically was trying to kind of introduce students to just some different elements of worship and stuff. And it actually went over really well. At least, I think so. 2:51 Yeah. Well, Todd's a good friend. So I'm sure he did well. 2:59 With the Anglican Church, that you're a part of what, talk a little bit more about that. Is it like the Anglican Church? Is it 3:08 you know, honestly, that's probably a whole podcast ended up. 3:13 Right, right. You know, because you 3:15 have the Anglican traditions 80 million members worldwide. Yeah, you, you know. So yeah, I'm a part of kind of a new emerging Anglican movement in the US, that is connected to the global Anglican Communion. And, but really, honestly, I'm working all across, you know, different, you know, I work with Church of England. I, you know, I do a lot of work in us, but I'm actually a member of for the center, church multiplication, which is out of the Diocese of London, I do a lot of work with them. And 3:55 last Lambeth conference. You know, I 3:58 didn't, I did not know. 4:02 Most of our readers wouldn't have listened, 4:04 they would have no idea what the context is for that. But yeah, so I, you know, I do stuff with kind of key kind of mission thinkers in the Church of England. But also literally around the world, which is really cool. It's a tradition that is rooted, but also is a very global and multicultural church, which is fun, because it just immediately connects you to a family of believers from around the world. 4:32 Yeah. And with our, with our kind of a lot of our students and alumni who maybe don't come from a liturgical background, maybe, right. It's kind of the beginning we can we can lay a foundation for that, like when we use the word liturgy, what do you mean by liturgy? And how are you using it in the book? 4:54 Yeah, so like you said, everyone has a liturgy Every church has, you know, a way that they worship with they realize it or not, when I speak in terms of liturgy, there's a historic framework for how Christians have worship for the majority of church history. And it's a fourfold framework that you have kind of a balance of gathering, worshiping here hearing the Word of God, then there, then you go to the table, which is the Lord's, the Lord's table, then there's a sending out. So there's kind of like a fourfold movement, gathering, hearing, feeding, or celebrating and then sending. And what you see is when you look at the majority of church history, this is how Christians have worshiped. And so in essence of liturgy, the word liturgy means work of the people, it's liturgy, oh, it means, you know, what God's people do together for a common purpose. And when things are recovering this book is the word liturgy, actually, in the original context was a secular word, which meant the common work of the people for like the common good. So it had almost a, almost a mission con connotation to it. And so kind of what I argue is, by recovering this framework, the liturgy, actually, the movements of the liturgy actually can move us toward mission if we understand it in that way, and teach it and reappropriate. And, you know, and contextualize it, you know, I think, no, I'm not arguing for you know, let's worship as, you know, certain way and every church looks the exact same. What I love about the this fourfold framework is, churches around the world literally use this, all tribes, nations, I've seen, and part of my research and churches that I've looked at in the US, is churches of all different denominational backgrounds are beginning to recover the liturgy, because there's a formative nature to it that forms this as believers but also ultimately forms this permission. Right? 7:08 Yeah. And in the beginning of the book, you kind of talk about this liturgical renewal that has been happening for several decades. And it was interesting, as I was reading it, I, I was have been a part of that liturgical renewal. I grew up in Indiana, you know, was was part of a very small country church, that was a branch off of the friends. And even what's interesting is growing up, I remember them saying specifically, and it was like 17 people in the in the room, I was blood related to like 15 of them. And I remember them saying, like, they didn't publish, like, they wouldn't publish a order of service, because they wanted the spirit to move, right. So in a sense, almost like anti liturgical. But when I got to college, I went to Indiana Wesleyan there. And my junior year, I started going to an Episcopal Church, and just fell in love with the liturgy and fell in love with the Book of Common Prayer. And it was just and that would have been mid to late 90s, that that was happening. And I didn't know about Robert Weber. I didn't know about the Chicago call. But it was just something that that I felt and was experiencing. And a lot of my friends were we were kind of I think you're looking for something that was rooted in history that was rooted in structure that was different than just freeform worship. And it was, and I was wondering, maybe your thoughts on that like, particularly in like 80s and 90s, maybe as this liturgical renewal was forming in the evangelical community as well. At what do you think were some factors may be for that? 8:53 Yeah, I think there's some sociological factors. With, you know, we're experiencing, you know, right now, you know, decline of, you know, rapid decline of mainline denominations, you have kind of the splintering of the evangelical movement. So you have kind of disenfranchisement that's kind of is being experienced across North American culture. So in the 70s, again, that's what I look at in that chapter is that this isn't just kind of a fad. It's not just something that's just Oh, liturgies cool, you know, like, it's like the new silver bullet that's gonna save your church. No, actually, I think it's a part of a larger historic movement within the church, where Christians who are coming from Free Church backgrounds, they're just they're burn out on all of the splintering and all of the kind of, you know, the This kind of inward thinking and the fights and the splits and they're beginning to look backwards. Now, you have the rise of the religious nones, that's also happening in North America, you've got people leaving the church, young adults leaving the church in mass. But what you're seeing is there's this movement that's happening all across denominations, and backgrounds where rather than leaving the church, there's actually something leading them back to kind of recovering the historic roots and foundations. Now, some of these young adults, some of these, you know, I say, young adults, I'm not a young adult, but I mean, there's people kind of Rh that are like, again, Weber all the way down. That are, some of them are embracing the high church traditions. You know, Catholic, Eastern, Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopalian, however, the vast majority of them are resourcing, or drawing from these ancient traditions, to incorporate those practices into their local context, and actually think that's a really good thing. Now, what I'm trying to do is provide a framework for people to do it in a way that it's not just hodgepodge, or like, right, you know, weaving together some quilt, and then it ends up being like, What the heck is this? Yo

In honor of Native American Heritage Month we are bringing back our interview with the lead editor of the First Nations Version, Terry Wildman, we recorded last year. For more information on the translation, go to firstnationsversion.com. TRANSCRIPT 0:01 Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host, Mark Moore 0:03 and your co host, Rex Gurney. And Rex, we 0:06 both of us can't be more excited on the show 0:08 today, exactly. 0:10 We have been waiting for this we are having on Terry wild man. He's the lead editor of the First Nations version of the New 0:17 Testament. I've been using that version of my personal devotions for months now. And so when I heard we're going to have him on the show, I just, it's a real privilege to 0:26 be here. Yeah. And as you listen to the show, you're going to be I think, so excited about this version is put out by InterVarsity press. And it is the New Testament, an indigenous translation of the New Testament, the First Nations version, First Nations version, and you can also go to First Nations version.com, to check it out, to see a sample of it and to see other things. Terry and his wife also do music. You're going to hear all about that on the show, but we just want to promo that in this intro. So that you will check that out. There's such a wonderful translation. And I think you really enjoy the show. 1:12 Whatever we are so excited to have you on the show, Rex in our boats, you know, out of all of our guests, we were we were extremely excited for the for the interview. So thank you so much for joining us. 1:23 Hey, it's great. Thanks. 1:25 One reason I was excited is actually Terry, I have been using the First Nations version in my personal devotions for about six months now. So when when Mark said we were going to have you on the show, I was really looking forward to that. 1:40 Yeah, and that was so the the full New Testament has just been released. And then it was released in smaller portions up till now. 1:49 Yeah, a couple about halfway through the project, we released half of the New Testament. I self published it at that time. And, and then InterVarsity press, saw what we're doing and got involved and said, hey, we'd like to publish this. And so we worked out the details. 2:11 That's great. And that's great. And, and so with Yeah, with maybe self publishing that first part or even how it began, I would love to hear that story of how of how this version took shape. 2:23 Oh, definitely. You know, I'd like to say first of all that, you know, we live in Maricopa, Arizona, and we live on the traditional lands of the Pima, and the tahona. Okay. And so I just like to give that acknowledgement in my podcast. So, you know, the first nation version started. You know, back when I lived. My wife, I live for five years on the Hopi Indian Reservation in northern Arizona. We work with YWAM and with the American Baptists at that time, and that's where the idea, or the first seeds of the idea began. In, I discovered a Hopi Bible. And I was very excited. It was in the storage room, and nobody was using them in our church. And so I kind of wondered about that. So I began to ask around this, if somebody could read from the Hopi Bible, and I really couldn't find anyone. And it wasn't until much later, I found one person who was able to read a little bit from that Hopi Bible. And then I discovered my wife and I both discovered that this is basically true across the across turtle line on which we call North America. And so these and the reason for this is the years of assimilation, government policies, boarding schools. At the same time, the translators were translating the Bible into native languages, other branches of the church got involved with the government and taking those native languages away from us. 4:00 So working across purposes there. Yeah, so it's 4:03 kind of a situation where I'd say over 90% Don't read or speak our language today because of those policies and, and tough even though many are working hard to reclaim their languages. Many of our tribes do it. There's over 250 distinct languages and many other portions of those languages spoken among the different traditions. So my wife and I had an idea of, of, since native people are an oral people, and learn by tradition, we wanted to create a story of from creation to to Christ, telling the story of the Bible. And so we working with some other Native people, we we did that and we created a C De called the great story from the sacred book with music in the background, my wife and I are musicians. So we recorded this ourselves and I was the narrator. And what what was amazing was we submitted that to the Native American Music Awards, and won the Best Spoken Word in 2008, for the Native American Music Awards. And so here was the story of Jesus told in a native way that actually was being recognized officially by, you know, the, the Native American people. And so we've, we felt that was a really good beginning. But then I began to search for a Bible that that was translated in English, since most of our people are speaking English, over 90%. Has there been a Bible that was translated with Native people in mind? And couldn't find one? So the right so over the years, I began to from that CD, I began to reword some of my favorite scriptures. I had no idea that I would ever be involved in a translation. I didn't feel like I could, you know, I wasn't trained that way. And, and how could I do that, but, but I did play around with rewarding things. And as my wife and I traveled, and as we use the rewording there on the reservation, and then later, as we began to travel to many different places, many different tribes, I would my wife would play the flute and, and I would read these portions. And native people would come up to me afterwards and say, What Bible were you reading from? And I told them, there wasn't one like that. And they said, well, there should be. And then another native elder in California told me, when you when you say it, in English, it's the way we think, in our language. And so that's kind of that idea. kept working on me. And I, and I thought somebody surely is going to do this, right? And no one did. So 7:14 it's surprising what people don't do. Yeah. And so 7:17 eventually, there was just so much confirmation and positive feedback. I committed myself to doing it with a lot of prayer, and a lot of folks coming around me and praying over me and confirming things for me. And so, but I didn't know how I was going to do it, you know, who's who's going to take seriously a translation by Terry wild man, you know, I mean, who am I to do that? But But what happened was, it took about eight, nine years before I finally committed myself. And so I started by, I hope I'm not going too long here. This is, 7:58 it's fine. This is the story we want to hear. 8:01 Okay. So we started by doing the, the Christmas story, I had already kind of sent out to our supporters, this idea of that, I'm going to do this. And so we sent out portions of the Christmas story, and, and started getting good feedback. So we, the first book we created is called the birth of the chosen one. And so that, that we have found an artist, and, and created that that took a while. And then after that, I did another book, where we did a harmony of the four Gospels. And so Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but but all harmonized together, which, you know, is impossible, but we did it anyway. We did the best we could. You know, it's an ancient tradition, the harmonies have existed since the second century, 9:00 right sensation, I think, yeah, but but, 9:03 so we just did it, like a storyteller would do it. And, and, and so we call that when, when the Great Spirit walked among us. And so that, when that was finished by self published that, and then in 2015, I said, Well, here we go. I'll start over with Matthew. And we're gonna start doing this translation I created, I had created a website, a Facebook page. And in April, I had already been working on it quite a bit. By April, I got an email on April 1, which is April Fool's Day. Right. And, and I got an email from the CEO of one book of Canada, Wayne Johnson, and he was that the CEO at that time, and one book is part of the Wickliffe global alliance of Bible translators. At the time, they were doing over 40 translations in Africa. Were working with indigenous people and their philosophy was that the indigenous peoples should be the translators. And they would be the helpers to give expertise and help and, and funding and all these different things. So I had a three hour conversation with Wayne Johnson, from one book, and we ended up forming a partnership with one book and rain ministries, which is our, my wife and I use ministries called rain ministries. And we we began the translation, but they by forming a translation council of 12. I thought that was a good number. That sounds better than a council, the committee 10. So I knew from traveling for 10 years on the road, my wife and I traveled and shared Jesus with Native people. And we, when we went to regular non native churches, we would talk about the issues with Native people, why? Why aren't native people going to church where it needed people falling to Jesus? Why is there such a low percentage. And so I would talk about these things and work on reconciliation issues and things like that, along with sharing portions of the translation, so. So I had a lot of relationships across Turtle Island, North America. And so I reached out to my friends from different tribes, different geographical locations. And from there, we we spent a couple of weeks in Florida, in Orlando at the Wickliffe associates. And they worked with us, our whole our whole council of 12, they worked with us to help us figure out how we were going to do this translation as a group effort. And then after that, in November of that yea

Jessup's lead faculty in mathematics, Michelle Clark, joins the show to discuss how math helps us understand the wonder and beauty of God. TRANSCRIPT 0:00 Hey everyone. Welcome to Jessup think I'm your host Mark Moore 0:03 and your co host Rex gurney. 0:05 Rex, today, we get to have one of our math professors on the show. She's the lead faculty and associate professor of mathematics, Michelle Clark, with our School of Natural and Applied Sciences, we're excited to have her on the show, because he's gonna be one teach us math, and really show us interesting ways that they are integrating faith into the math courses here at Jezza. 0:28 And we always love just introducing our listeners to the stellar faculty. 0:33 Yeah, so we hope you enjoy the show. And we know that you will learn something about math and about. 0:46 Well, Michelle, thank you so much for being on the show. Rex and I are excited, because we're not very good at math. 0:52 And we rarely have like STEM faculty on the show, you know, and yeah, that's a huge part of the educational experience at the school. So it's important to, to talk to some of them and to see what they have to teach us and share with us. 1:07 Exactly. So we'd love for you to kind of share with our listeners what you do here at Jessup. What, what all subjects, you know, kind of been introduced his math professor, and what does all that entail? 1:18 Yeah, thanks for having me on, guys. It's joy and an honor to be here with you guys today. Yeah, so I am Michelle Clark. I work here at Jessup. I've been here for about 10 years. So I started in 2012. Part time then, and then I came on full time in 2015. 1:38 I think we've all done that. Right. I think yeah. 1:41 Like part time, yeah, that's kind of the path in higher education. Places. Yeah. And before that, I actually taught to Junior High in high schools at Christian schools, too. So really, my whole kind of professional experience has been in Christian education. I've always taught mathematics at every single level, Junior High High School, I also taught at community college for a while to all different levels of math, ranging from the very lowest math where we're adding, subtracting, multiplying dividing numbers. I've taught Calculus I hear I also teach classes, like for math majors, you know, senior level, yeah, you know, elective type courses as well. So I really run the whole range of everything. I also teach like our math for liberal studies. So our students are trying to be multiple subject teachers. So I really teach the whole the whole range here. I'm also lead faculty right now for mathematics as well. So I'm involved in lots of other administration type things of running the department and having all these classes and stuff. So. 2:50 So Michelle, what would you say to someone like me, who is sort of math, math phobic, and I went to a private high school where you had to have math and science every single day, every single year. And in my junior year, I was taking trig in functions. And so the next place to go was calculus, but I was terrified of calculus. So somehow, I don't know how I did it, I convinced the administration to take advantage again. And so in my first year of college, because I thought, you know, I've got to have a math course for general education. So I took the Trigon functions course again, so three years in a row, I did so should have. I have been like terrified of calculus as I was to take that darn course three times in a row. 3:34 Yeah. And I always tell people, people get really scared of calculus. That sounds really intimidating. But actually, you did, you know, trig and functions of kind of like algebra three, right? If you think of like our old course of like algebra one, Algebra Two, and then usually take like a trigonometry class. That's really algebra three. And so when you start in calculus, it's calculus one, right, like you're starting at kind of the beginning of a new type of mathematics. And so you really only learn two or three big ideas, you know, in the course of a semester, so you actually did the harder path. If you're taking calculus, it might not have been so bad, maybe would have altered your trajectory. 4:10 I don't know everybody else in my family has done it. And apparently we've all survived, but not me. I'm just 4:15 I mean, Humanities guy from personal experience. It was calculus that ended my senior year of high school calculus. I was like, oh, man, is is out. You know, I think I'm in the humanities. You're gonna be an English major. Based on this experience. 4:34 How cool is this? When it starts getting good? That's when it gets interesting. 4:38 That's what I hear. That's what I hear. You know, if I could go back maybe maybe I wasn't quite paying attention enough as I could. That must have been the reason probably was in. Although we will. I don't know if my math teacher would ever listen to this. But there was maybe a pedagogical thing that got us in trouble. Is it We did our own homework, right? We did our homework, but then we came in, and then we graded our own homework. Right? And that wasn't positive. No, that wasn't positive, because all of us got A's. It's weird. Yeah, it's like, whoa, doing great. But then the test would come around. And no one would get A's. That's like, wow, I'm getting A's on all my homework, but don't understand what's happening. Yeah, I probably should have not been so gracious to myself on my homework. Probably should. So that, hey, that's, you know, that's our math careers. I didn't have a question. Did you? Did you always want to be a math teacher like or when was when did that come around? Where you're like, I want to teach math? Yeah. So 5:45 actually, I have a really funny story how that came about. I actually really loved history in high school, too. So I when I was in high school, I would not have told you that math was my favorite subject. In fact, I took AP Calculus, and I didn't pass the AP test, like I got a two. And that here, I am a full blown math professor. And so I kind of went into college into my freshman year thinking I knew I wanted to teach, I've always kind of been very drawn to the profession of teaching. And I didn't realize when I was signing up for college that you had to like, pick a subject, if you wanted to teach like junior high or high school, I had a misconception that I thought I'd be like a Liberal Studies major. And so I was on the phone, you know, registering for my classes. And the person asked, like, Oh, what do you want to do? And I said, Oh, I want to be a teacher. And they said, Oh, so you want to teach K six? And I said, Oh, no, I want to teach like junior high or high school. And they said, Oh, you have to pick a subject. And so literally on the phone, I was debating between math and history. I mean, like, honestly, I was like, I really love history. But it was one of those things. Were in high school. I had bad history teachers. Yeah, and good math teacher. Right. And so it was one of those things where I was sitting seriously on the phone just going like, like, I don't know. And then I just kind of went, I guess math, because I was like, reflecting on the good math teachers I had had. And so I kind of picked it. It was almost like a coin toss. But at the same time, once I started getting into the classes in college, I just absolutely fell in love with the subject. And so it was like it was certainly the right place. For me. I'm I'm also like, an Enneagram one. And so I'm a rule follower. And so like math really like my personality really well. So I'm really thankful that I like picked that way. But yeah, it was kind of happenstance that I chose it. 7:33 So I'm really curious. What makes a good high school math teacher. What, what's what's good, because I apparently never had, 7:44 yeah, I had, gosh, I had some really good teachers, who were just really engaging the eye, they taught me very challenging math concepts. Like I said, it's not like I was a star student, I was not saying math was my favorite subject. But I think they just challenged me to think and to think deeply and critically about things. Also, in high school, they they did a lot of really fun things. Like I didn't realize, you know, a lot of times we think math is really cut and dry and boring. And we were doing math, but we also did a lot of games and stuff like that. And so we're still doing math content, but it was like, Oh, this isn't a cut and dry and boring subject like it can be fun. So yeah, I had really great teachers. Mr. Gregory my senior year. Shout out to Mr. Gregory. Yeah. And I've even gotten in contact with them. And the last few years have been like, Hey, thank you for what you did. You know, like, yeah, you changed the pathway of my life, you know, and I've never heard that from the students. So that that'd be like it's still right. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, yeah, just good, engaging. And that's, you know, obviously, what I tried to try to be for my students here, right is be engaging and be interesting and let them know like, it doesn't have to be cut and dry and boring. And it's definitely harder in college than when I taught high school though. Just the compressed timeline, we have to cover all the content is challenging, whereas when I taught high school, I had a lot more freedom to do a lot more fun activities and stuff. 9:22 So So what here here at Jessup what's what I'm trying to phrase this well, what is among your favorite classes to teach? Instead of your favorite? Yeah, it's just such a bogus question. But, you know, 9:37 it's among really, yeah, it's really tough. I would say it's hard because there's like, different categories, I guess you could say, right, like I enjoy. I really enjoy teaching numerical analysis, which is like upper division elective for our math majors. Because that's like an applied mathematics and I really love ap

Jessup's newest professor of biblical studies, Dr. Max Botner, joins the show to talk about his journey to Jessup and his heart for studying and teaching the Bible.

Dr. M. Daniel Carroll from Wheaton College joins the show to discuss his new book The Lord Roars: Recovering the Prophetic Voice for Today.

Scholar and Jazz enthusiast William Edgar joins the show to discuss his new book, A Supreme Love: The Music of Jazz and the Hope of the Gospel.

Mark and Rex kick off Season 4 by looking back at their summer travels and summer reading list, proving once again Julius Rex Gurney is the most interesting man in the world!