21 Hats Podcast

This week, in episode 264, David C. Barnett and Jennifer Kerhin say they’re already making plans for next year: adjusting pricing, conducting employee reviews, and setting budgets. In the past, Jennifer has chosen to restrain growth to give her employees and her processes a chance to catch up. But this coming year? She says she’s ready to “unleash the hounds.” And for the first time, she’s planning to budget for profit first and then force her expenses to fit her margins. Unlike Jennifer, who conducts employee reviews throughout the year, David saves his evaluations for the end of the year. As he looks forward, he’s trying to figure out what the economy means for his business. He’s seeing more companies in distress, but also more opportunities to help people with severance packages who decide to buy businesses. Plus: David and Jennifer share how they’ve each been experimenting with ChatGPT of late.

This week, Kurt Wilkin discusses what he’s learned about selling businesses and how he’s thinking about what he might do next. An entrepreneur, an investor, a mentor, and a former business owner who recently sold a recruiting firm, Wilkin tells us why his acquisition of the firm didn't work out the way he hoped and how he managed to turn it around and sell it. Part of the problem, Kurt says, was that he jumped back into the game too quickly after selling his previous business. It’s a mistake he’s not going to repeat this time.

This week, in episode 264, Mel Gravely brings closure to a story he’s been sharing in pieces over the past year. You may recall that he bought a facilities maintenance company a couple years ago that he was convinced he could scale—only to discover that it was hemorrhaging money. Mel dug in, diagnosed the problem, fixed it, bought out his partners, turned the company profitable—and then decided to shut it down. Why close a business that’s making money? Mel explains the surprising answer, along with three lessons he says he learned. He also joins Jay Goltz in a candid discussion of the painful flipside of hiring: When, and how, does it make sense to lay off employees? As Jay points out, it’s far easier to find advice about adding people than about letting them go, even though it’s a calculation many owners are facing today. Plus: A would-be entrepreneur preparing to launch a business with two friends admits he’s feeling scared. He wants to know whether that fear ever goes away. Mel and Jay think he’s asking the wrong question.

This week, Cameron Madill, an entrepreneur who’s married to an entrepreneur, talks about the challenges of building a business while maintaining a relationship. Along with his own experience, Cameron has done lots of research, including interviewing more than 100 couples, and has also started a business to help couples balance marriage and entrepreneurship. Among other things, we discuss the difference between healthy passion for work and unhealthy passion, how to handle the most common issues that come up between entrepreneurial spouses, and the most important lessons Cameron has learned on this journey.

This week, in episode 263, we bring you another 21 Hats Brainstorm. Elan Daniel, who started a small-batch hummus business inspired by a memorable experience in Israel, is trying to figure out his best path to long-term viability. So far, he’s been selling at farmers markets and direct to consumers, making all of the hummus and all of the deliveries himself. Since February, his sales have been growing between 5 and 10 percent a week, but his growth is constrained by his refusal to use preservatives, which adds flavor but limits the product’s shelf life. So how should he proceed: Should he sell to speciality markets and restaurants? Should he try to sell to Whole Foods? Should he open his own hummus restaurant, or hummusiya? Should he try to introduce his hummus to the uninitiated or should he focus on connoisseurs? To help Elan think through his options, we convened a panel of 21 Hats Brainstormers and recorded this podcast episode. It’s brought to you by New Bridge Studios, which helps companies, creators, and causes connect their story to the bottom line. And by the way, if you have a challenge you’d like to put before a panel of business owners in our next Brainstorm, shoot me an email: loren@21hats.com.

This week, Eric Stites, founder and CEO of Franchise Business Review, talks about the state of the franchising world. How much money do you need to buy a franchise? How much can you make? What are the hot categories? What are the most common mistakes? We also talk about life on the other side: What makes a business a good candidate to become a franchisor? And is it possible to avoid the tension -- and litigation -- that so often arises between franchisees and franchisors? Plus: If you buy a franchise, are you an entrepreneur? Or are you just buying a job?

This week, Jaci Russo and Sarah Segal wrestle with a question that haunts many entrepreneurs: How do you bring your kids into the business—whether for a summer or for good—without messing up the business (or the kids)? For years, Jaci and her husband Michael quietly hoped their son Jackson might one day take over their marketing agency. Their unusual strategy? Never mention it to him—at least not until he’d demonstrated interest and not until he’d proven himself somewhere else. The approach seems to have worked: Jackson has joined BrandRusso, and Jaci has told him he’ll take over in four years. Which prompted Sarah to ask Jaci an obvious question, “What happens if he takes over, and he does a bad job?” As it happens, Jaci and Michael have thought about that, too. Plus: Jaci and Sarah discuss the merits of the new tech trend, especially hot in San Francisco, where more and more people are wearing AI-powered devices that can stealthily transcribe every conversation they have.

This week, Shawn Busse, founder of Kinesis, talks about finding ways to market authentically when so many of the standard tools of marketing are in flux. In Shawn’s case, that means holding an annual event where business owners -- and potential clients -- have the opportunity to come together to learn and interact in person. Of course, throwing such an event costs money. It’s a lot of work. And it’s not always easy to strike the right balance between education and promotion, but Shawn believes more businesses should try it.

A few months ago, John Abrams—author of From Founder to Future—joined us to talk about succession strategies and the different ways business owners can share ownership with employees. For his own business, John chose one of the more radical options: he turned his construction firm into a worker cooperative. Perhaps surprisingly, the more he described the co-op model, the more intrigued Jay Goltz became—although, predictably, Jay did retain a degree of skepticism. So we asked John to come back on the podcast to help Jay dig a little deeper: Are co-ops really all about democracy? Does someone on the loading dock get the same vote as the CEO? How do profits get split in the co-op model? How do losses get absorbed? How are loans secured without burdening frontline workers with personal guarantees? And perhaps most important: What can go wrong? In the end, I think surprising even himself, Jay failed to identify any real dealbreakers.Show Notes:Get a free trial of the Morning Report.Learn more about the Cooperative Fund of the Northeast.This is the podcast episode where Jay Goltz talks about how to do a We-SOP.

This week, Gene Marks makes a surprising claim: his business is “unsellable.” Never mind that it’s profitable. Never mind that it gave him the freedom to live the life he wanted and that it has left him and his wife financially secure for retirement. According to Gene, the business can’t be sold because it’s too dependent on him and because it has no IP, no exclusivity, and no moat. But is he right? Aren’t those the same challenges faced, for example, by countless HVAC and plumbing companies that private equity firms buy every day? Couldn’t Gene make his business sellable if he wanted to? What do you think? Is Gene leaving money on the table? Or has he just chosen the path that’s right for him and for his family?

In a few weeks, I’ll be in Portland, Oregon, for Shawn Busse’s always terrific Catalyst event. That trip has had me thinking about the city’s keep-it-weird ethos, the spirit that’s made Portland a hotbed for creative business building. My upcoming trip has also inspired me to revisit a podcast conversation Shawn and I recorded in early 2024 with Jenelle Etzel, who is founder of Living Room Realty. The boutique real estate agency has more than a hundred brokers and a reputation for doing things differently, but Jenelle didn’t set out to be a business owner. In fact, she majored in weaving (Shawn, for the record, majored in ceramics). She fronted a punk rock band. She lived out of a van. And yet, those experiences—especially learning how to manage people who didn’t technically have to listen to her and how to serve customers who’d been ignored by the mainstream—turned out to be perfect preparation for building a thriving business in a quirky city. It’s a story that says something about Portland, but even more about the unconventional paths that can lead to successful entrepreneurship.

It was around Memorial Day in 2022 when Coca Cola stunned the beverage world by announcing it was shutting down production of Honest Tea. No one was more surprised than Seth Goldman, who had co-founded the brand and sold it to Coke. But within two weeks, he’d decided to do it all again, and by that Labor Day, bottles of his new venture, Just Ice Tea, were already landing on store shelves. And now, three years later, Just Ice Tea has exploded from $1 million in annual revenue to nearly $24 million to rank 88th on the latest Inc. 5000—more than two decades after Honest Tea first appeared on the list. Which makes this the perfect moment to revisit the conversation I recorded with Seth right before Just Ice Tea launched. In it, he shares how he processed Coke’s decision, why he sold to Coke in the first place, what compelled him to get back into the business, and what he learned working inside the world’s largest beverage company. And yes, I asked whether he could imagine selling this brand to Coke, too.

This week, Jimmy Kalb tells us how he built his electrical component business and, perhaps even more impressively, how he put a plan in place that has allowed him to walk away from his CEO role at the relatively young age of 63. One key: Jimmy has long been a process guy. For years, he’s been creating processes and handing them over to someone else to manage -- until he left himself with not all that much to do. Another factor: He only hires people right out of school, which is why his successor is in his early 30s and has never worked anywhere else.

This week, in episode 260, Liz Picarazzi tells Jay Goltz and William Vanderbloemen that she’s had a couple of big breakthroughs. For Liz, it’s been a challenging few years dealing with the tariffs while also trying to break into a promising new market. Despite the advice of some very smart people who encouraged her to conquer her first market —urban areas plagued by rats—before expanding into additional markets, Liz has spent several years trying to position Citibin to serve towns, parks, and resorts that need trash bins strong enough to withstand bears. For that investment to pay off, however, Liz would have to outsmart her nemesis, an especially ferocious competitor that goes by the name of Seeley. Plus: Jay talks about the plight of small retailers trying to survive while their industry collapses around them. And William tells us how he’s trying to keep up in the AI arms race between employers and employees.

This week, Gene Marks explains why he -- like many other business owners -- long ago gave up on trying to promote his business through Google AdWords and why he’s hopeful that AI will break Google’s monopoly on search. That’s nowhere close to happening, but you can see the changes coming with the arrival of Google Overviews and with businesses trying to figure out what it takes to get discovered on ChatGPT. In the meantime, Gene’s placing his promotional bets on YouTube.

This week, in episode 259, Jaci Russo tells David C. Barnett and Kate Morgan how the hiring of her agency’s first top-level sales person went wrong. About four months ago, when Jaci first told us about this big step, she sounded thrilled. She said her new sales chief was a delight to be around, had hit the ground running, and had already lined up at least one impressive client. Unfortunately, none of that panned out. But Jaci, who is hardly the first business owner to have an important placement go off the rails, offered to walk us through her process to see what lessons we can all learn: Were the interviews flawed? Was the onboarding effort insufficient? Was it the executive recruiting firm she used? Was it the compensation structure? Or was it the remote-work arrangement? Plus: We also discuss the mounting evidence that companies have stopped filling entry-level positions. And should that trend continue, where will owners find the next generation of leaders?

This week, Tracy Bech explains how and why she spent six months building, training, and testing her brand new 60 Minute Custom GPT, which is essentially an AI CFO that can perform all kinds of financial analysis on your business. You can interact with it as easily and conversationally as you do with ChatGPT, and it can help you figure out why your margins are off, or how you should expect to perform next quarter, or whether that new service you plan to offer will be profitable. And it’s free.

This week, in Episode 258, Laura Zander tells Mel Gravely and Jennifer Kerhin how she and her husband, Doug, managed to sell their business for precisely the price they wanted. As you may recall, Laura and Doug started Jimmy Beans Wool more than two decades ago as a tiny corner store and turned it into one of the biggest brands in the yarn industry. Years ago, the couple decided they’d be open to selling—but only if the offer was right. With that goal in mind, they made a deliberate effort to get the business sale-ready and to keep it that way. And, as Laura ran the company, she started cultivating relationships with anyone she thought might one day be a buyer. In fact, she tells us, she was never shy about saying, “Oh, hey, Bob, it's really nice to meet you. Do you want to buy my business?” Eventually, someone said yes—although getting to a signed contract, Laura says, nearly broke her. Plus: Jennifer thought she had her hands full running her business—and then her own home went up in flames.

This week, Ben Knepler returns to the podcast to explain why he and his co-founder at True Places concluded they had no choice but to suspend production of their portable, outdoor chairs and go into survival mode. Initially, they manufactured the chairs in China, where they’ve been paying tariffs since the first Trump administration. Last year, at considerable expense, they moved production to Cambodia, which at the time was subject to no tariffs. But since April 2nd, the company has been subjected to a tariff rate that has gyrated from zero to 49 percent to 10 percent to 36 percent to 19 percent as of last week. In our conversation, Ben explains why they stopped production and how they hope to survive.

This week, in Episode 257, David C. Barnett, Jay Goltz, and Lena McGuire talk about their experiences hiring consultants, advisors, and especially coaches. There are, of course, lots of great business coaches out there, but as the owners explain, it’s easy to be led astray by coaches who don’t really know your industry or who address your specific challenges with their cookie-cutter solutions. And here’s a question: Does it matter whether the coaches were successful in their own entrepreneurial endeavors? “I've seen some of these people in the picture framing industry,” Jay tells us, “these people who were coaching and were giving advice to people. And every last one of them failed in their own business.” But when coaching works, it can be transformative, says Lena, who is “absolutely thrilled” with the coach she hired. So how do you tell the difference between a coach who can actually help and one who just talks a good game? Plus: Jay explains why he’s thinking about opening a pizza shop. Seriously. Well, sort of seriously.