Woodland Walks - The Woodland Trust Podcast

Did you know American music legend Nile Rodgers is helping the Trust plant and protect woodland in Northern Ireland? Alongside generous donations to Faughan Valley Woodlands from the We Are Family Foundation (WAFF), Nile has got stuck in with planting on site. Nile and the foundation he co-founded with his partner, Nancy Hunt, are working with us to reconnect fragmented native woods in a region where less than 1% of ancient woodland remains. We caught up with the multiple Grammy Award winner on his latest visit to find out why. We also hear from David Saddington, trustee of both WAFF and the Trust, on why empowering young people to take direct action is key to this work, and we chat to some of those volunteering at this special event. Please note this episode contains references to drugs. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk  Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Nile: But it just made me feel so good. It was so real, it was almost like a drug. So my parents were doing heroin, I was doing music *laughs*. Nile: So I always thought that an artist was the guy trying to be the smartest person in the room, that everybody said, 'well, I wish I could play like him, I wish I could do that'. No, it was the person who touched people's hearts. Nile: We actually had them locked out the studio because we still hadn't finished the lyrics to We Are Family. Nile: Trees do, all plants, but trees, you know, especially, do so much for life. Let's not just talk about the overall environment, life, all life forms that exist. Adam: For 40 years, if you've been on a dance floor, you'll have been dancing to the music of one of our guests today. He co-founded Chic, produced and collaborated with David Bowie, Madonna, Richard Jackson, and well, to be honest, too many others to mention. But to give you an idea of the sort of musical success he's had, I can say that he has produced and performed on records which have sold more than 750 million albums and 100 million singles. Born to teenage parents in an environment where drug use was very much part of his every day, he has come from that background with an attitude to life which is as upbeat and as positive as his music. And together with his partner, Nancy Hunt, they have established the We Are Family Foundation, focused on empowering young people around the world. Together, they're in Northern Ireland, in Derry, to support and protect and indeed restore woodland in this country, and indeed Nile is on the Woodland Walks sofa and joined by one of the trustees of the We Are Family Foundation and indeed the Woodland Trust, David. So we'll come to David in a moment. Why don't we start now where it all started with the music? Reading about you and listening to stuff you've done, my impression is you're the most positive person I've read about and that surprises me because of the disjointed background you grew up in. So two questions. Do you think that's a fair description and if so, why? Nile: So the... the interesting thing about my childhood was that though my parents were heroin addicts, they were extremely loving and they believed in me so much so that, believe it or not, I was never, ever told what to do. They knew that I instinctively would figure it out. Or I was just one of those nerdy, nice kids that they knew would never get into trouble. I mean, I have never stolen anything. I've never, I bullied one kid once and the reason why is because everybody bullied me because I was a nerd. And when I bullied this kid, he started crying and I started crying. He's probably forgotten that incident. I will never forget it. It'll bother me my entire life. I could not believe that I did that. So my childhood was actually on one level very happy, but at the exact same time, and I don't know how these two situations could have coexisted, except only now forensically, but it was super happy, but then I actually called my childhood a fear-based childhood. I was afraid of things, so I did things to make me unafraid or happy. And music was that thing. But it just made me feel so good. It was so real. It was almost like a drug. So my parents were doing heroin. I was doing music *laughs*. Adam: I mean, it's weird you describe yourself as a nerd. You're the least nerdy-looking nerd I've ever come across, but fair enough. Nile: Oh God, test me. Adam: Oh really, okay, we'll do a nerd off *both laugh*. Fair, fair enough. But that positivity, I mean, you talk about being nice, but what I think is striking about your music, and perhaps problematic for some of it, is that it's relentlessly positive. And I think sometimes it's seen as sort of very surface level because of that and yet you talk about the deeper meaning behind the music, which I think some fans of yours perhaps don't see, or that's not what they're getting from it. Nile: But that's okay, though. Adam: That's fine. Nile: It's okay. Yeah, you're so correct. I mean, I'll try and quickly just tell you this story. So when I said I was a nerd, believe me, I studied music on a level that was so intense, that was ridiculous. So I thought it was my job to prove to my tutors and various teachers how smart I was, how well I learned the rules and the discipline of music. I wrote symphonic music when I was a child, I wasn't even 10 years old yet. And I remember I was going to one of my tutors. I was around 22 years old and I was a very serious jazz student. And I went into him one day with a very sourpuss attitude and look, and that was not me. He just was like, no, you're always so happy and you're always so upbeat. What's wrong with you today? And I said, well, look at this ******** pop music that I have to play tonight. Now, maybe I thought it was sort of ******** but maybe I was just trying to score brownie points with him because I always thought being a great musician was being the smartest guy or the greatest virtuoso in the room. So what happened was my teacher, I showed him the list of songs that I was playing that night. And I said, look at what I have to start my set with. This song by The Archies called Sugar, Sugar. He said, yeah, but now what's wrong? Why are you so sad? And I said, because I got to play Sugar, Sugar. You know, I want to play straight ahead jazz. He was like, that's okay that you want to play straight ahead jazz, that's what I love. But why is it bothering you to play Sugar, Sugar? And I said, because it goes, *sings* Honey, do, do, do, do, do, do, oh sugar, sugar, do, do, do, do, do, do, you are my candy girl, and you got me wanting you. And he said, Nile, that's a great composition. I went, you call Sugar, Sugar a great composition? He said, absolutely. He said, what do you think about it? He says, and I went, well, it sucks. It's some ******** bubblegum pop music. And he went, now, do you know that Sugar Sugar's been number one for about three weeks? And I said, yeah, but what does that got to do with anything? And he went, so those millions of people around the world, they're wrong, but you, Nile Rodgers, are right? And all of a sudden I felt, uh-oh, *laughs* something weird's getting ready to happen. So he held me behind my head and he pulled my face close to him and he said, Nile, let me explain something to you. Every record in the top 20 is a great composition. And so remember, we're going back now 50 years. I'm 73 years old, so we're going back a long time. And I say, every record in the top 20 is a great composition? He says, yes. I said, why would you say something so absurd? He says, Nile, because it speaks to the souls of a million strangers. And I literally started crying at that moment because in one spark, in a nanosecond, he explained to me what an artist was. So I always thought that an artist was the guy trying to be the smartest person in the room, that everybody said, well, I wish I could play like him. I wish I could do that. No, it was the person who touched people's hearts. It was the person who made people feel something, be it happiness, be it sadness or whatever. But a lot of my friends who are virtuosos, we just would go, wow, he can play his *** off. That was the thing. We didn't feel anything necessarily. Sometimes we did, but I was determined to try and make people feel something every time. And to me, I wanted people to feel happy because I wanted to feel happy. Why do I want to write sad music? Adam: So that phrase, speaking to the souls of a million strangers, it's clearly an iconic thing about your music. The other striking thing, I think, which you've talked about, is about life, not just your music, but I think obviously connected, is not about surviving the storm, but learning how to dance in the rain. Is that one of the tenets of your approach to music and life? Are they the same thing? Nile: That's exactly it. That's why people wonder why I do so much music, and it's because I believe that I could always, I honestly, and this is not an egotistical statement, I always believe that I can add something to the song. I believe that I can make it better, even if it's just a little better, but you can hear it. I mean, five minutes before I came down here, I asked an artist that I sent a piece of music to, I said, you never wrote me back. How do you feel about the guitar streams that I sent you? And Kygo just wrote me, he said, he just literally just wrote me, where the hell is it? I went, cool. He went, oh, yes sir, sounding really cool *laughs*. Minutes ago. Adam: Okay. So look, we need to talk more about that, but I want, you're here not for the music, but for the work of your, and Nancy, your partner's, foundation. And David Saddington, sitting next to you, is a trustee of that foundation. You also happen to be a trustee of the Woodland Trust as well. So the purpos

Have you ever wondered what trees taste like? That's the thought that spurred our guest, Ben Branson, to launch his latest venture, Sylva. We meet in Essex at his woodland, distillery and lab, where he crafts non-alcoholic drinks that capture the natural flavours of trees. Also the founder of Seedlip, the world's first distilled non-alcoholic spirit, Ben has now turned his focus entirely to nature to make Sylva 'a tree company that makes drinks'. Join us to explore the production process, admire a centuries-old oak that could offer a new flavour, and discover Ben's mission to encourage others to love trees as much as he does. We also learn how Ben's ADHD and autism help fuel his curiosity and innovation, and inspired him to launch The Hidden 20%, a charity, podcast and movement finding and sharing the truth about neurodiversity. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk  Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, in today's episode of Woodland Walks, I'm off to see a man who invented the world's first distilled non-alcoholic drink. It was called Seedlip and effectively he created it in his kitchen and took it to 40 countries and in the process, I think it's fair to say, helped change the world of adult drinks and it certainly spurned lots of imitators, which you may well know. He also has a different mission. Really, I think it's fair to say his mission is now at least partly to involve the environment in much of what he does. He has, for instance, won two golds at the prestigious Chelsea Flower Show, and last year launched Pollen Projects, which aims to continue to disrupt the drinks industry, in particular though, by harnessing the flavour powers of trees. And that's something I suppose I've really never thought about. Anyway, so I met him at his farm, his home, his laboratory - they're all more or less the same thing - somewhere in Essex. Ben: My name is Ben Branson. I'm the founder of Sylva. Adam: Fantastic. So first of all, we've lots to talk about. Ben: We do. Adam: Because we are sitting in an amazing, is this a laboratory? Ben: Yeah, I guess. Adam: It doesn't feel like a laboratory, it feels something much more designery. It feels like a Porsche should be made here or something. Anyway, looking over an extraordinary landscape, and we're going to go for a walk through that. But first of all, would you tell me a little bit about what, I suppose, what's brought you here and your history and why, why you're doing what you're doing. Ben: So I grew up on a farm and my family have been farming up in Lincolnshire for 320 years now. So that's nine generations and we're still farming. And I guess that meant I enjoyed a childhood largely outside and trees played a big part of that. Animals did, fields, produce, and hard work, I guess, not from me, but from my family. Adam: Right. So did you ever work on the farm? Ben: I did, yeah. And I would spend summers... Adam: So you got your hands dirty? Ben: Yeah, I would spend summers sitting on a tractor or going and sitting with my grandfather on a combine. Adam: Right. And you came to prominence for something completely different. I mean, not sheep or potatoes or anything, but the non-alcoholic drink called Seedlip. So briefly, how on earth did that happen? Ben: Yeah, Seedlip was a, I guess, a series of sort of curious accidents. Adam: I suppose we should pause, just tell, for those who don't know, what on earth we're talking about, what is Seedlip? Ben: So Seedlip was the, or is, the world's first distilled non-alcoholic spirit. Adam: Fine. Ben: So botanicals, distilled. and made into various different blends that you could have with tonic or in a cocktail. Adam: Will you get annoyed or too crude to describe it as a non-alcoholic gin? Ben: Too crude in that it is illegal to describe it as a non-alcoholic gin now *both laugh* Adam: Oh okay, not just too crude! Okay, incorrect. But okay, in my mind, I saw it as a... Ben: Akin to. Adam: Akin to. Ben: In that, in that world of a clear, botanical-driven liquid. Adam: Fine. So we know what it is. Ben: We know what it is. I've never worked for somebody else's drinks business before. I've never worked in manufacturing. Yeah, I learned how to distill ingredients partly through YouTube, partly through a book that was originally published in 1651. I have a 1664 copy of here called The Art of Distillation that details apothecaries' experiments for herbal remedies using distillation. So I, this started with me growing herbs at home and down the rabbit warren of Wikipedia looking at different lists of ingredients. Adam: So why did you want to do that? Ben: Because I'm the kind of guy that has a collection of 4,000 1940s Penguin books. And I'm the kind of guy that learned how to do taxidermy in an ancient church on a family farm in Lincolnshire. And I'm the kind of guy that likes to tinker and experiment and go really deep into things that I'm interested in. Adam: So it was just a, it wasn't, this wasn't, 'I'm going to be a businessman', you just fancied having a go? Ben: Nothing to do with drinks. I was just curious. Adam: Amazing. Ben: And taking mint from my garden and then making a liquid that smells and tastes like that plant was really magical. Adam: I mean, I don't want to talk about Seedlip a lot. Ben: Me neither *laughs* Adam: No, but just, I suppose, the last question on that, it must have come a point at which you've gone, this is a project in my garage to, hey, we could do this. How important was that? How significant a moment was that? Ben: Yeah, so the two key turning points were one, driving into London to go out for dinner, obviously not drinking alcohol and being served the most disgusting, pink, fruity, sweet, horrible mocktail and thinking, why is it so difficult to get a decent option? That was one key moment. And the second key moment was I made 1,000 bottles of Seedlip two years after I'd started distilling and I thought they'd last six months and they sold out in Selfridges in three weeks. And that went from my kitchen to, yeah, 35 countries and set this movement alight, which is all part of, yeah, we're slowly meandering towards now where we've got to today. Adam: So you sold that to Diageo? Ben: I sold the majority of that to Diageo in 2019. Adam: You own a bit of it. Ben: Yes. Adam: And now you're starting a new venture. Ben: Yes. Adam: Which is? Ben: Which is a company called Pollen Projects that has two brands. Seasn, which is a pair of cocktail bitters. So people may know Angostura. Very intense, concentrated, strong liquids that transform your sparkling water or your cocktail. And then my favourite, favourite project, which is Sylva, which is all about trees and making aged non-alcoholic spirits. Adam: So we'll talk about the trees, we'll, let's go for a trip about that. But before we get into all of those specifics, I think I'm right in saying that you, one of the purposes, one of the sort of foundations of the work you do is a sort of purpose-led business. Again, is that a fair description? Ben: Absolutely. Adam: And the business talks about that. Now, I'm a business journalist. It's now ubiquitous for businesses to go, we're purpose-led and we feel we're strong in the community. And one of the problems for journalists, and I think the public at large, is distinguishing between those who have some sort of genuine purpose here and those who feel we need to add that as our marketing strand. Ben: Yeah. Adam: Do you recognise that issue and if so, how do you overcome that? It must be very difficult to go, no no, I know everyone's saying this, but I really believe it. Ben: I am very, very clear that the reason why I'm doing this is because this is a way in which I can express myself. This isn't work for me. This is how I express myself because it's what I'm interested in. I'm very interested in trees and I'm incredibly curious and I really want to learn. And so I believe that trees are this most incredible, underestimated source of flavour, as well as all the other wonderful things that we already know about trees. And I want people to love trees. And so that is, if I can make a product that meets a need in people's lives and tastes delicious and they want to drink again, that for me is a real win-win rather than, I don't know, any other kind of business purposes or made-up, I'm really clear, like half of this is really selfish. Adam: Selfish in what way? Ben: In the sense that I want to keep working with trees. And I want to explore trees in my working life rather than it being a hobby at the weekends. Adam: And is it about that? Is it about like, I like trees and I want to work in the environment and it's great because I've got a sort of commercial reason to do that. Is there something, I get that, is there something also about social purpose, about feeling that the business should do some good or not? I don't mean to judge it in either way because it's perfectly fine for business not to do that. Ben: Sure. I think it's baked in. Seedlip, Sylva, Seasn. Someone said to me, probably about 12 months ago, they're born good. They don't have any alcohol in them. They are there to offer choice and they are there to include people. That's already baked in, in terms of the product. And so, yeah, there's lots of details we have with Sylva of some of the environmental credentials around our packaging or what we do with our waste, all that, but they are sort of below the surface, as it were. Ultimately, we want people to have a delicious drink and a great option and great choice. Adam: And how important do you think the public feel that sort of role for companies? It feels to me that certainly since COVID, there was a bigger demand for the public to hear companies stand up for something.

As we head towards the New Year, we catch up with Woodland Trust CEO Darren Moorcroft to reflect on 2025 and look back at some of our favourite episodes. Darren takes us through some of the challenges and successes of the last 12 months and emphasises how the power of public support for woods and trees can create a greener, healthier future for people and nature. We also share some highlights from past woodland walks, including reading a tree with natural navigator Tristan Gooley, a former golf course being transformed into a thriving community space in Cheshire, and a visit to Welsh woodlands with Kate Humble. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk  Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Well, as we head towards Christmas and New Year beyond that, many people will be looking back at what the past year brought them and indeed looking to the next year to see what things they want to do or what challenges they'll face. And I thought this was a good time for us to do that too on this podcast. Now, I have now done over 50 Woodland Walk podcasts for the Woodland Trust and so there's lots to pick from of some of my highlights over those 50 and I want to share just a few clips of those. But before we get to those clips, I wanted to share a chat I had with Darren Moorcroft, who is the chief executive of the Woodland Trust. And I began by asking him for his reflections on the challenges and achievements of the past year.  Darren: So I think throughout 2025, probably the greatest challenges that we've faced have been a range of things, but I'd say probably the greatest has been the kind of political environment in which we're operating. Now as an organisation, we are apolitical so we advocate on behalf of woods and trees and it's felt a little bit like in 2025, there's been a growth agenda that's been versus nature and versus the environment and versus woods and trees, rather than thinking about them being an integral part of and actually underpinning our entire economy. So that's been a real challenge for us to continue to step up to and make the case for why woods and trees for people and nature are so really important. And I think that then plays into some of the great achievements that the Trust has had. It's not only been a case of taking the urgency of the cause that we are fighting for and growing the relevance and resonance of the organisation's voice so that we can stand up for people and who care about trees, the great thing about the Woodland Trust is our supporter base is really ethos sort of centred. So all of our estate is free and open to all, regardless of whether you are a member of the Trust. And that means that people aren't buying their way into the benefits that woods and trees give them. They are understanding that the benefits should be there for everyone and for nature. And therefore, it's really a strong argument when talking to decision makers at any level of government, whether that's local government, metro mayors or in the devolved administrations or Westminster, there's a real power to the voice that the Woodland Trust has for woods, trees, people and nature. And people care about woods and trees, as we saw with incidences like the Sycamore Gap and the Whitewebbs Oak in Enfield. When those trees are damaged, destroyed, then there's a real outpouring of grief, it's fair to say, because people care about this part of our natural heritage, which is really important in their individual lives, but actually for society as a whole.  Adam: Well, there'll be more from Darren a little later on. But first, let's now go to one of my favourite clips. This is from a podcast where I met presenter and naturalist Kate Humble. Well, in early spring I went on a woodland walk in Wales with presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble, who was taking me around what promised to be some amazing woodland with her dogs. But as is increasingly common in these podcasts, We of course had to begin with me getting absolutely and entirely lost.   Okay, this is an absolute disaster. Although I am bad at directions, this is not my fault. So Kate sent me a pin because she said, well, this is going to be hard to find my place. She sent me a map pin. I followed the map pin. Look, I'm here. I don't know if you can hear this. You probably can't hear this. This is the gate that's locked, which is across some woodland path. So I can't get there. And of course, there is no phone signal. So I'm going to have to drive all the way back to some town to find a phone signal and I'm already late. Okay. I have managed to find a village where there is a phone signal. I've managed to call Kate. And Kate...*laughs* Kate has clearly got the measure of me and has told me to give up. And she is now going to get in her car and find me in this village and I will follow her back. In the meantime, we have passed Google Map pins back and forwards, which apparently tell her that I'm sitting outside her house, but I really am nowhere near her house. So I seem to have broken Google, which, well, that's a first. Anyway, I've got a banana here. So if she's a long time, I have dinner. Meantime I'll just wait. This will never happen. This will actually never happen. We found Kate. We found her. So, yeah. So, well, you're leading me off with your two dogs.  Kate: I am. I am. I'm leading you off into one of the most beautiful, I think. I mean, obviously I'm a little bit biased, but it is one of the most important areas of ancient woodland in Britain. This is the Wye Valley. We're the Lower Wye Valley, so we are the bit really where the River Wye is in its sort of last bit of its journey. It's risen in mid-Wales about... 136 miles from here. I know that because I've walked the whole route.  Adam: Really?  Kate: Yeah.  Adam: We're not doing that today, are we? No, we're not.  Kate: No, I promise. I promise, Adam *both laugh* So, yes, and we are basically about 5 or 6 miles from where it flows into the River Severn and then out into the Bristol Channel. And the woods around here are a lovely mix of broadleafs. So we're walking through broadleaf woodland now and this is literally, this is what I walk out of my front door. Aren't I lucky?  Adam: You are lucky.  Kate: I'm so lucky. So we've got a lovely mix of broadleaf woodland now and we're just coming into that time of year, which is the time of year that makes everybody's spirits lift because we are coming into spring. And if we actually just stop just for a second, you can hear that's a blue tit calling. And I mean, this isn't the perfect day for birdsong, but the birdsong is really picking up. And that's the lovely thing about living alongside woodlands. So even in the winter, even when you don't think there are any birds at all, what you hear in these woods is *makes ch-ch-ch noise* That's a very, very bad impression of a great spotted woodpecker. We're going to cut off piste a little bit and head down here.  Adam: Is this a precursor warning that I'm about to get bumps and scrapes?  Kate: This is a precursor warning that you might, yes, you might *laughs*. It's quite a steep descent.  Adam: That's fine. Just as long as, my face is my fortune so as long as that's safeguarded throughout this, that'll be fine.   Kate: *laughs* Of course. It'll be a soft landing.  Adam: Okay, well that's good. Yeah, lots of leaves around.  Kate: Lots of leaves.  Adam: So, I mean, I thought we were going to chat about your conversion to nature and everything, but actually that's a lot of nonsense. This has been a constant in your life.  Kate: Well, it's been, I mean, coming to Wales, so I did live in London, you know, after I left home.  Adam: I mean, you didn't choose a nature career, did you? I mean, you're involved now, we can talk about that, but first, what was your first career?  Kate: Well, I mean, career always seems such a grand word and that you've planned it.  Adam: Yeah, OK. So your accidental career.  Kate: So my accidental career. Well, I had this idea that I wanted to work in television, although, again, I don't really know where that came from. We're going just down here. Part of me also wanted to be a safari guide.   Adam: Right, good. I can see the appeal of that.  Kate: I went to, when I was 19, having never really been abroad at all, because again, our generation didn't really go abroad as a matter of course, and so I went to Africa when I was 19.  Adam: Sorry, we're not talking on a holiday?  Kate: No. It was a, it was a, it was probably a rebellion *laughs*  Adam: You went as far away as possible, I'm not going out for the evening, I'm popping off to Africa.  Kate: I'm popping off to Africa and I don't know when I'll be back. One of those.  Adam: Good exit line.  Kate: And I think it was that journey that turned my mind to really re-look and re-examine the natural world and think, it's extraordinary, it's extraordinary. It's mind-blowing in every way. And yeah, so even though I then came back and thought, I want to have this sort of career in telly, what I really wanted to do in my career in telly was work for the natural history unit.  Adam: Right. And is that what you did?  Kate: No.  Adam: And do you feel, I mean, you feel passionate about it. Do you feel evangelical about it?  Kate: Yes.  Adam: So what, do you have a prescription to help to bring others on side?  Kate: I wish it didn't mean, I wish you didn't have to ask me that question. I wish it didn't have to be an on side.  Adam: Do you feel that's an unfair question?  Kate: No, I don't. I think it's a very fair question because lots of people don't feel or don't, perhaps don't experience it, experience the advantages of the natural world or they haven't been given the opportunities to properly understand the impact tha

Dive into the inspiring story of Hall Farm Estate in Devon, a fairytale land once owned by Trust founder Ken Watkins. We meet current custodian, tenant farmer Seb, to discover how crucial conservation work is continuing here as the 300-acre farm integrates more trees into a regenerative farming system. As we walk through picturesque heathland and wood pasture on the edge of Dartmoor, Seb tells us of the ambitious plan to get an astonishing 20,000 new trees in the ground and how they'll benefit his cows and the local landscape. Full of enthusiasm and love for the land, he hopes the project will encourage more landowners to adopt tree‑rich, nature‑friendly approaches.   Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk We're supporting the sharing of farming activity at Hall Farm thanks to funding from Dartmoor's Dynamic Landscape, made possible with the National Lottery Heritage Fund and National Lottery players.  Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Well, for this podcast we're going to Hall Farm Estate in Devon, which is very special. It once belonged to the Woodland Trust founder, Ken Watkins, and it's where he brought to life his vision to protect and restore nature, which is continuing today. Five decades later, that vision is still at the heart, really, of what the Woodland Trust does. Now, the farm I'm going to sits on the fringe of Dartmoor at Harford. It's made up of Gorage Waste, Hall Plantation, Kingswood, and Hall Farm. And there's a rich mix of habitats, it includes ancient and veteran trees, mature hedgerows, ancient woodland, and even, so unusual, not just in the UK, but of course in the world, it also includes temperate rainforest species. And what's going on at Hall Farm is particularly exciting, and I think it's fair to say ambitious as well, because in addition to continuing the conservation work that Ken Watkins started, it integrates woods and trees within regenerative farming. And so it's bringing together a proper commercial farm and a sense of looking after the land and the environment around you in a very particular way. I'm going to find out how that works and to meet the people doing it. If you want to know where Hall Farm Estate is, if you know what you're doing with maps, it is grid reference SX632592, map reference explorer 28, OS Land Ranger 202. Or you can just go to the Woodland Trust website and look up Hall Farm Estate. That's woodlandtrust.org.uk. Enough from me. Let's go to the farm.  Seb: Good morning. I'm Seb Powell and me and my partner Freya have just, well, six months ago taken on Hall Farm, the tenancy at Hall Farm. And we're going to show you around.  Adam: Brilliant. And we're starting at the, his is really lovely. There's old farm buildings over there. It's all super picturesque, much more picturesque than many of the farms I've been on.  Seb: Yeah, it's definitely a special place. I think, I mean, the first time I came here, I fell in love with it pretty much instantly. And I think it has that effect on most people. It's described as a fairytale land, I think, in a sort of historic book about Hall Farm. And why is that? I suppose it's just rich in natural character. There's these old walls, there's a beautiful lea, I think we'll walk past in a minute, so you've got this trickling sound of water in a lot of the parts of the farm. Lots of trees, obviously. And we're on the edge of the moor.  Adam: We're going to go for a walk, but we're starting with a map to explain where on earth we are, the sort of... the journey we're about to go on. So just talk me through what we're going to see here.  Seb: The map shows us, obviously, the farm, it's 300 acres of which about 80 acres are woodland and the rest is pasture. So it's an upland farm. And then we've just thought, well, how can we integrate all sorts of different types of tree planting? So on this map, we have an idea here, which is in one field called the dehesa, which is based on a Portuguese, Spanish, like cork oak, not plantation, but where livestock would basically live in amongst the woodland. So we're going to try and do that here. Not with cork oak, but with native oaks, but also walnut trees, for example.  Adam: Oh, look, is that a neighbour passing through?  Seb: That is actually, we've got an event here today, they're demonstrating the use of no fence collars. So yeah, part of the farm actually is we have quite a lot of sort of outreach stuff going on and it's great, it gets us involved with all the neighbours.  Adam: Brilliant. Okay, so that noise of that Land Rover is a bit of the outreach. Very good. Okay, so you've got... That's about, okay, that's a great place to start. I want to talk to you about that. So lead on to wherever we should go first.  Seb: Well, let's go, we're going to go down the hill a little bit. We're going to go to a place where trees have already been planted about 40 years ago. So when we were coming up with this map and the ideas of what we're going to do, we looked at what was here already and trees have already been incorporated here and we thought, well, we can learn from this. That's what we're going to do.  Adam: Lead on. So one of the special things about this farm is its use of something called silvopasture. So what is that?  Seb: Silvopasture, in essence, is integrating trees and livestock. So it's sort of bringing woodlands, where woodlands meet pasture, I suppose, and trying to integrate the two, merge the edges of where those blurred lines of woodland in theory can come into field and think of all sorts of ways how we can sort of recreate that.  Adam: Okay, so I'll hold on. So, okay, so what is the purpose of silvopasture? Is it just a charitable thing to get trees into the ground or is it a different type of farming? I don't quite understand the benefit.  Seb: Yeah, it really is a different type of farming where you incorporate trees into the farming system and then the trees will have benefit to the farming system or the livestock in the system. So in our case, we've got cattle and they will benefit in a dry, hot year from the shelter of the trees. And in the winter, if the cattle are outdoors, they will benefit from the, as you know, the trees acting as a windbreak.  Adam: Which sounds sort of obvious and easy. So why doesn't everyone do that? I mean, just a tree providing free shelter rather than having to take the cows into barns or something. It sounds like a cheap way of doing it. Why isn't everyone doing this if it's so straightforward?  Seb: Well, I think it's an old practice and most people know that, you know, we're in a modern time where we don't always use old practices anymore. So there's a bit of a revival of what in Devon used to be called the Devon Barn, which is basically just cattle up against the hedge. And we're just trying to revive that really and use it with a modern twist, incorporating trials of how trees could, you know new tree planting, not just traditional hedges, could be incorporated into fields in trees.  Adam: And how complex is it? I mean, the way you describe it sounds very simple. Look, we need some shelter. We'll chuck some trees in the ground and wait a few years and then there'll be shelter. Is it that simple or is there something more complex going on?  Seb: I think in essence, yeah, it is really simple. I mean, decide where you want the trees and plant them. The only complexity probably comes in is how long is it going to take for those trees to grow? Did you decide that where you planted them was actually the place you wanted them or are you going to go in five years and decide that you want them over there? And are they going to be eaten by anything? Are they going to survive? Is there going to be a drought? So there's challenges, but I think that's part of our sort of journey in a way, is also to learn from the process.  Adam: I want to ask you some more of that, but we've come to, not a puddle, I'd say this is a minor lake we've got to cross here! Okay, so there's a fence. So we're going to open the fence. Oh, are we going to climb across that?  Seb: Yeah there's a very cleverly perched...  Adam: Okay, right, we're crossing. Sorry, I'm just concentrating so I'm not talking or holding the microphone. We're crossing a sort of little stone bridge, which is very nice. I thought I was going to have to try and leap across that. Okay, so yes, we're talking about planting trees and everything. Is there any downside to it at all?  Seb: I think in the short term, if you look at it, you look at tree planting with like a conventional farmer's hat on, you're losing potentially productive land. So you've got to wait, you've got to offset that, you know, for maybe five or ten years, there's going to be less, this land is going to have less pasture. And we're going to accept that and realise that, but in 10 years' time, there's going to be these trees and they're going to offer all these benefits. Does that make sense?  Adam: Yeah, it does. Very good. Okay, we're through the... wettest part without opening to a much broader field. Is this one of your fields?  Seb: This is, yeah, this is Welsh Hill, and this is actually one of the first fields, or the first field, where we put the cattle into when we moved here, because there was some grass here. And the cattle, the first thing they did was, in fact, we let them into those woods, which are about 40 years old. And they went in for the shelter, because there was a howling easterly wind, and they started calving in there.  Adam: Wow, that's so the cows here are living outside all the time. Is that the idea?  Seb: Yeah, try and keep the cattle out for the whole year.  Adam: And the advantage of that is what?  Seb: W

You might look at everyday items in a different light after this episode, as we hear best-selling author and Woodland Trust ambassador, Jonathan Drori CBE, reveal some of the fascinating things we make with plants. From the well-known coffee bean to the tree bark that's used in spacecraft, he shares some of the amazing relationships between familiar objects and the natural world as we meet beneath a beautiful beech tree on Parliament Hill in London.  These stories and more feature in Jonathan's latest book, The Stuff That Stuff Is Made Of, which aims to spark an interest in nature for younger readers. He explains how discovering the wonder of nature in a fun, exciting way as a child can inspire a lifelong connection, just as it did for him. We also discover why fruit is sweet, the value of the mandrake plant, how beech is thought to resist lightning and more. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Jonathan Drori CBE, is a man of many talents. He's a trustee of the Eden Project and of Kew Gardens, a member of the Royal Institution, a man who used to be a senior commissioning editor at the BBC, and he's also an ambassador for the Woodland Trust and a best-selling author of books such as Around the World in 80 Trees and his latest, The Stuff That Stuff Is Made Of, a book for younger people about the plants in their lives and the things they make which are all around them. And whereas these podcasts often take me on long journeys, this time, well, it's just a hop, skip and a jump away in London at Parliament Hill, where we met to talk about his book and the things we didn't know about the stuff around us all. Right, we are... it's a bit windy right here. It actually sounds windier than it is, but we are in Parliament Hill, or thereabouts, with Jonathan Drori, who has written the stuff that stuff is made of, and is also a big noise, essentially, in the Woodland Trust itself, of which we can talk lots about. But we're standing by a beech tree. So, Jonathan, why did you write this book?  Jonathan: I wanted to do something that would make kids kind of interested in the natural environment. Starting with the things they're interested in, which are kind of ice cream and chocolate and sport and dinosaurs and all that kind of thing. And use their own interests to sort of spark other interests in nature, in trees and plants, and also actually in history and folklore and culture, which are all sort of bound up with those things. One of the things I've tried to do with the book is to explain things from the plant's point of view as well as from a human point of view. So there are all these qualities that we desire plants for, whether that's sort of sweet things to eat or things to build with or things to make musical instruments out of. And they're all in the book and that's fine. But I've also tried to explain, you know, why has bamboo evolved in the way that it has? And why has a beech tree evolved the way it has? Why does chocolate have sweet mush around the seeds? You know, why do the grasses feed us? Why is sugar cane sweet? And why do we love it?  Adam: And so through this book, you're trying to attempt to do that by explaining stuff like tea and chocolate, indeed, where it comes from.  Jonathan: Yeah, I mean, there are 30 different species that I deal with in the book. And on the right-hand side of the page, there's a whole lot of information about the way that the plant grows, how it's cultivated, the relationships that it has with other plants, with the little critters that might pollinate it or disperse the seeds. And on the left-hand side, there's a whole lot of stories about the plant, all kinds of kind of fascinating facts and really about the human relationships with that plant.  Adam: Do you think we have lost that connection with the plants around us. So that this sort of stuff might have been really obvious a few generations ago or not.  Jonathan: *laughs* A leading question, m'lud! Yes, I mean, you know, with urban living and things being in packets at the supermarket, you know, we perhaps don't think very much about where the basic materials for our existence come from, whether it's things we eat or things we build with or things that we just sort of like looking at and playing with.  Adam: Is it important to know those connections? I mean, you as someone who likes nature, I can understand why you might feel that's important. But is it important for us all to rebuild that connection?  Jonathan: I think that my love and interest in nature came from my parents, actually, at the time, dragging me around Kew Gardens and Richmond Park and telling me stories about the trees and plants that were growing there. And they did that in such a way that I would be interested because they knew who I was and so they found the things that would sort of excite me. And I think I want to do the same for young people so that they grow up with a kind of interest and admiration and some sort of understanding of nature. But you can't sort of ram it down people's throats. It needs to be fun.  Adam: Yeah. But why is that important? I understand that's what you want to do, but why is it important?  Jonathan: Well, we've only got one planet. And if we don't look after it, then, you know, our lives and livelihoods are doomed. So that's the sort of very basic reason. And also we are part of nature, so just, not having an understanding or rejecting nature is kind of rejecting part of ourselves, I think.  Adam: So it's a soft environmental message here. And that's also seems to me important because, well, from my perspective anyway, it feels like a lot of environmental charities and environmentally minded people push a sort of narrative, the world could end, it's all a disaster. And actually, I worry that, although it's well-meaning, it might turn people off. Now that isn't what you're doing with this.  Jonathan: No, there's none of that in the book, none of it at all. What I've tried to do is to excite people about the stories of pollination, of the little critters that live in and around plants, the relationships that the plants have with other plants and so on in the environment, and make that sort of exciting and fun and interesting enough that people will just say, say to themselves, that's kind of something that's worth protecting. Maybe they won't think that for 10 or 15 years.  Adam: There's lots of interesting stories here. I think the one that really struck me, I think, was about vanilla. So vanilla, obviously, people use it in cooking, they might use essence of it or whatever. But am I right in saying, you think it's in the book, you actually go, there was a boy, and you name this boy... oh sorry is that a bird I can hear? *laughs* sorry!  Jonathan: It's the parakeets.  Adam: Oh it's the parakeets, I thought there was a squeaky wheel behind me! No no. All right, parakeets in the background. A named boy who taught the world how to pollinate vanilla. Tell me that story.  Jonathan: Yes, it was an amazing story actually about vanilla that in about the sort of 1840s, when they brought vanilla plants over from Mexico where they were native, to Africa where they wanted the plantations to grow and the little bee that pollinates vanilla didn't really travel. And so they had to find something else that would pollinate the vanilla plants so that the vanilla plants would propagate and grow. And sadly, they couldn't find any insect that would do that. No local insects would do this in Africa or outside Mexico. So all the vanilla plants had to be pollinated by hand. And it was a 12-year-old boy, Edmond Albius, who worked out how to do this. And by basically sort of cutting a bit of membrane and then squidging the two bits together and right to this present day, that's the way that vanilla is pollinated, by hand. And that's why it's so expensive.  Adam: It's amazing, isn't it? Apart from the vanilla story, do any others stand out in your mind? Is there ones your favourites?  Jonathan: Oh, it's like asking your favourite children, isn't it? I mean, there are all sorts of things in there that I notice when I talk to young people, to sort of eight, nine-year-olds, they sort of come alive. Those who've read the Hogwarts stories and Harry Potter, they're amazed to discover that mandrake is actually a real plant. And of course, mandrake used to be very, very valuable because it was one of the very few plants that could be used as an anaesthetic. And people used to, back in the Roman days, they used to mix it with wine and then sort of do minor operations and things. Don't try this at home! It's actually a real plant. It grows somewhat, I've seen this in this country, but it grows in Italy quite well and it has these rather sort of mind-altering attributes to it, which are a bit odd.  Adam: So it might be used by people who want that sort of druggy effect, but does it have any other purpose?  Jonathan: Well, not now, but it was an anaesthetic, and anaesthetics were so sort of unlikely, you know, if you think about it, you take something and it makes the pain go away, that people associated the plant with witchcraft, especially as it gave you the impression of flying. And so a plant that could alter your outlook and the way that you see the world so profoundly, and the way you perceive it so profoundly, was associated with witchcraft. And people made all sorts of stories about the mandrakes that they, that when you pulled it out of the ground, they said, that you could hear it scream because sometimes the roots look a bit like a person, especially with a bit of judicious whittling. And so people would say you've got to get a dog, tie the dog to the mandrake root and then kick the