Skip the Queue

Today’s attractions need to do more than look amazing — they need to feel, sound, and even smell unforgettable. In this episode, we explore how to go beyond the visual and bring audio, scent and motion to the forefront of the guest experience.  Paul Marden is joined by Liam Findlay, Theme Park and Museum Scenting Consultant from AromaPrime Themed Scents; David Wakefield Director and Co-founder of On the Sly; and Matt Clarkson, Creative Director of Simworx. Show References:Liam R. Findlay – Theme Park & Museum Scenting Consultant, AromaPrime Themed ScentsWhy smell is a form of mind control, with Liam Findlayhttps://aromaprime.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/liam-r-findlay/David Wakefield – Director & Co-founder, ON THE SLYhttp://www.onthesly.comhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/davidonthesly/Matt Clarkson – Creative Director, Simworxhttp://www.simworx.co.ukhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-clarkson-a42a95124/ Skip the Queue is brought to you by Crowd Convert. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.  We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In today’s episode, recorded live at the National Science and Media Museum during the Association for Science and Discovery Centres Annual Conference 2025, we’re exploring what’s on the horizon for Science and Discovery Centres right now, over the next 5 years, and looking even further ahead to the next 25 years.It’s a throwback to the break between Seasons 6 and 7, when Paul Marden was invited to the ASDC National Conference in Bradford, at the height of the Bradford City of Culture celebrations. It was Paul’s first time in Bradford, but not his first ASDC conference, and this one was an absolute standout.At the end of the first day, Paul gathered a brilliant panel of delegates to unpack the conference’s central theme: the Now, Next, and Future for Science Centres.Joining Paul on the panel were:Jo Quinton-Tulloch, Director, National Science and Media MuseumDavid Jones, Community Engagement Manager, International Centre for LifeNatalie Whitehead, Founder and Director, Exeter Science CentreStephen Breslin, CEO, Glasgow Science Centre and Chair of the Association for Science and Discovery Centres ASDCShaaron Leverment, CEO, Association for Science and Discovery Centres ASDCLet’s head back to Bradford for a fascinating conversation about innovation, engagement, and the long-term vision shaping the future of science discovery in the UK. Show references:  Jo Quinton-Tulloch - Director, National Science and Media Museumhttps://www.scienceandmediamuseum.org.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jo-quinton-tulloch-22503791/David Jones, Community Engagement Manager, International Centre for Lifehttps://www.life.org.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-jones-031570198/Natalie Whitehead, Founder and Director, Exeter Science Centrehttps://exetersciencecentre.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalie-whitehead-17323ba9/Stephen Breslin, CEO, Glasgow Science Centre and Chair of ASDChttps://www.glasgowsciencecentre.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephen-breslin-b331135b/Shaaron Leverment - CEO, Association for Science and Discovery Centres ASDChttps://www.sciencecentres.org.uk/events/asdc-conference-2025/https://www.linkedin.com/in/shaaron-leverment-74b53b50/ Skip the Queue is brought to you by Crowd Convert. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

This week on Skip The Queue we explore the science behind ensuring good visitor experiences, by looking at the role data has to play in thisJoining me are two experts in this field, Professor Jim Deegan, economist, tourism policy expert, and founder of the National Centre for Tourism Policy Studies at the University of Limerick, and Ernesto Sánchez- Batista, an expert in destination planning and digital transformation.Together, they have been instrumental in developing a new Tourism Data Dashboard. This has been utilised to transform the visitor experience at The Cliffs of Moher, one of  Ireland’s most iconic landmarks.Let’s find out how, and what they’ve achieved.  We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.Download your FREE copy here: https://pages.crowdconvert.co.uk/skip-the-queue-playbookSkip the Queue is brought to you by Crowd Convert. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.Show references:  Jim Deegan - PHD Scholar of Cliffs of Moer Projecthttps://www.cliffsofmoher.ie/https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-41721501.htmlhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/jim-deegan-94438b2a/Jim Deegan is the Director of the National Centre for Tourism Policy Studies (NCTPS), University of Limerick(UL), a member of the Economics Department( Head of department, 2011-2016) ) and Professor of Tourism Policy. He is an economist by training and his research interests and publications are in all facets of public policy for tourism. Jim is a highly cited author in tourism economics/policy papers and he acts as a referee for all the top rated international journals in tourism and has served on editorial boards of numerous journals that have included the Cornell Quarterly and Tourism Economics. As director of the NCTPS at UL he has raised more than €6 million through project research and philanthropic donations  that has funded research scholarships for more than 25 students to study tourism at postgraduate level. Jim has undertaken project research on behalf of the World Bank, The European Commission, Eurostat, The Irish Government, Failte Ireland, Tourism Ireland, the Marine Institute, the Law Society and many other public and private sector organisations across the world. He was the project lead for the team that delivered Ireland’s first Tourism Satellite Account in 2004.Jim has served on numerous public and private sector committees/boards on tourism issues over the last 25 years and was a founding member of the Business Tourism Forum of Failte Ireland  from 2004 and was appointed to the Board of The National Tourism Development Authority( Failte Ireland) by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport in 2013. He is currently a board member of the Birr Scientific and Heritage Foundation. Jim was the founding chairman and a shareholder in Treaty Radio Ltd that was sold to UTV PLC for €15.7million in 2002. Ernesto Batista Sánchez - PHD Scholar of Cliffs of Moer Projecthttps://www.ul.ie/business/departments/department-economics/research/national-centre-tourism-policy-studieshttps://www.linkedin.com/in/ebats/Ernesto Batista Sánchez is a PhD researcher at the National Centre for Tourism Policy Studies (NCTPS), Kemmy Business School, University of Limerick, Ireland. Prior to this, he worked as an Assistant Professor in Tourism programmes at the University of Holguín, Cuba. He graduated with a first-class honours MA in International Tourism from the University of Limerick in 2020 and holds a PhD from the University of Holguín (2024). His research explores the application of technology and data analysis in tourism. We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

We’ve got a frightfully good episode for you today on Skip The Queue. We’re taking a trip to the dark side… where screams echo, shadows stir and the scare actors never seem to take a night off.We’re joined by the team behind Avon Valley’s FEAR Scream Park, a family-run adventure park with more than 35 years of experience, and now home to one of the UK’s most terrifying Halloween events.Winners of Best Event Entertainment at the 2024 Thrill Nation Halloween Awards, Avon Valley has mastered the art of blending immersive theatre, multi-sensory scares and spine-tingling attractions that keep thrill seekers coming back for more.From scare zones to scream-worthy shows, and even a ‘scaredy-cat lanyard’ for those who’d rather keep the monsters at arm’s length, there’s something for everyone who dares to step inside.Let’s unmask what’s new this year at FEAR… We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.Download your FREE copy here: https://pages.crowdconvert.co.uk/skip-the-queue-playbookSkip the Queue is brought to you by Crowd Convert. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.Show references:  FEAR Avon Valley Scream Parkhttps://www.fearscreampark.co.uk/Avon Valley Adventure Parkhttps://avonvalley.co.uk/Doug Douglas on LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/douglas-douglas-87826038/National Farm Attractions Network (NFAN)https://www.farmattractions.net/Halloween and Scare Attraction Association (HSAA)https://www.hsaa.uk/Avon Valley Adventure Park is a family business with 35 years of experienceWinner of Best Event Entertainment at the 2024 Thrill Nation Halloween Awards, Avon Valley’s FEAR Scream Park offers a unique and thrilling experience for Halloween and adrenaline lovers across the UK and beyond. Re-opening on Friday 10th October, FEAR Scream Park will welcome visitors for 11 nights of scares. Boasting two zones, five multi-sensory and immersive scare attractions, it will also play host to fire and laser shows, street entertainment and a ‘bolt on’ scare experience known as The Exorcism. Visitors will be challenged to hold their nerve as they navigate the attractions and enjoy a night that is as thrilling as it is terrifying.FEAR welcomes all who dare to experience its horrors but for those who prefer a less intense night the park offers a 'scaredy-cat lanyard,' which lets actors know to keep their distance allowing all guests to have a bloody good night. FEARless at Avon Valley Scream ParkFor those on half term, younger scare-lovers can experience the award-winning FEAR Scream Park with FEARless, a frightfully fun experience that invites under 16 year olds to navigate a tamed-down version of four attraction mazes with no major scares (but still plenty of spooks) along the way. With street performers, food stalls and fairground rides, the event is running for select daytime slots from Saturday 26th - Thursday 31st October.  We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

Paul Marden and Andy Povey head to the VAC 2025 Conference at the Queen Elizabeth II Centre in Westminster, London, to explore the evolving world of attraction retail and e-commerce.With special participation from Skip the Queue’s founding host, Kelly Molson, the conversation delves into practical steps for creating seamless, authentic and profitable online experiences.Joining him are industry experts Stephen Spencer, Director of Stephen Spencer + Associates, and Simon Jones, Managing Director of Navigate Agency, to discuss how attractions can create e-commerce gift shops that truly enhance the visitor experience.They discuss the Visitor Attraction Playbook and explore how storytelling, sustainability and smart integration can transform your retail offer from an afterthought into a powerful brand extension.This episode also marks the launch of our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.Download your FREE copy here: https://pages.crowdconvert.co.uk/skip-the-queue-playbook Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  Stephen Spencer, Ambience Director of Stephen Spencer + Associateshttps://www.stephenspencerassociates.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/customerexperiencespecialist/Simon Jones, Managing Director of Navigate Agencyhttps://www.navigate.agency/https://www.linkedin.com/in/simontjones/Kelly Molson, Skip the Queue’s founding host, Agency Advisor, Kelly Molson Consultinghttps://www.kellymolson.co.uk/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellymolson/ We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

Paul Marden heads to the AVEA conference in front of a LIVE audience to find out why gift shops are such an important part of the attraction mix. Joining him is Jennifer Kennedy, Retail Consultant, JK Consulting and Michael Dolan, MD of Shamrock Gift Company. They discuss why your gift shop is an integral part of your brand and why it needs to be just as good as the experience you have on offer. This coinsides with the launch of our brand new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide To Going Beyond The Gift Shop’, where you can find out exactly how to improve your online offering to take your ecommerce to the next level. Download your FREE copy here:  https://pages.crowdconvert.co.uk/skip-the-queue-playbookBut that's not all. Paul walks the conference floor and speaks to:Susanne Reid, CEO of Christchurch Cathedral Dublin, on how they are celebrating their millennium anniversary - 1000 years!Charles Coyle, Managing Director, Emerald Park, on how they are bringing AI integrations to enhance their booking processesRay Dempsey, General Manager of The Old Jamerson Distillery on how they offering more accessible touring optionsIt's a mega episode and one you'll not want to miss. Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  Jennifer Kennedy — Founder, JK Consultinghttps://jkconsultingnyc.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-kennedy-aba75712/Michael Dolan — Managing Director, Shamrock Gift Companyhttps://www.shamrockgiftcompany.com/Catherine Toolan — Managing Director, Guinness Storehouse & Global Head of Brand Homes, Diageohttp://diageo.comhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/catherinetoolan/Máirín Walsh — Operations Manager, Waterford Museumhttps://www.waterfordtreasures.com/Dean Kelly — Photography & Visitor Experience Specialist https://www.wearephotoexperience.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/dean-kelly-1259a316/Charles Coyle — Managing Director, Emerald Parkhttps://www.emeraldpark.ieSusanne Reid — CEO, Christ Church Cathedral Dublinhttp://www.christchurchcathedral.iehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/susannereid/Ray Dempsey — General Manager, Jameson Distilleryhttps://www.jamesonwhiskey.com/en-ie/visit-our-distilleries/jameson-bow-street-distillery-tour/https://www.linkedin.com/in/ray-dempsey-37a8665a/ We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

This week on Skip the Queue, we’re stepping into the turret and turning up the tension, as we explore one of the UK’s most talked-about immersive experiences.Paul Marden is joined by Neil Connolly, Creative Director at The Everywhere Group, who have brought The Traitors Live Experience to life. With over 10 million viewers watching every betrayal, backstab and banishment on the BBC show, expectations for the live version were nothing short of murderous.So, how do you even begin to transform a TV juggernaut into a thrilling, guest-led experience? Let’s find out who’s playing the game… and who’s about to be banished…Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  The Traitors Live website: https://www.thetraitorslive.co.uk/https://www.immersiveeverywhere.com/Neil’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neil-connolly-499054110/ Neil Connolly is a creative leader of design and production teams focused on development, production and installation of live theatre, entertainment, multi-media and attractions for the themed entertainment industry worldwide.Neil began his career as a performer, writer, producer & artist in Londons alternative theatre/art scene. It was during this time Neil developed a love and passion for story telling through the platform of interactive playable immersive theatre.Having been at the vanguard of playable & immersive theatre since 2007, Neil had a career defining opportunity in 2019 when he devised, wrote & directed an immersive experience as part of Sainsbury's 150th Birthday Celebrations. Making him the only immersive theatre & game maker in the world to have HRH Elizabeth Regina attend one of their experiences.In a distinguished career spanning 20 years, Neil has brought that passion to every facet of themed entertainment in the creative direction and production of attractions such as; Handels Messiah, Snowman & The Snowdog, Peppa Pig Surprise Party, Traitors Live, The Crystal Maze Live Experience, Tomb Raider Live Experience & Chaos Karts, an AR go-kart real life battle. Other clients and activations include: Harrods, Sainsbury’s, Camelot/The National Lottery, Samsung, Blenheim Palace, Land Rover and Warner Brothers.Neil has worked across 4 continents for many years with private individuals; designing, producing and delivering live entertainment on land, sea & air. A world without boundaries requires freethinking.Neil is currently working with Immersive Everywhere on creative development of show and attraction content for projects across U.K, Europe, North America & Asia. We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode, we chat with Choni Fernández, Chief Sustainability Officer and Customer at PortAventura World, the first carbon-neutral theme park in the world, and now proudly B Corp certified.Choni isn’t just ticking ESG boxes, she’s leading a cultural shift in how attractions operate. From zero-emissions hotels to renewable energy and deep supply chain work, PortAventura is setting the global standard.In this episode, we dive into the real work behind the headlines. How do you build a sustainability culture that actually sticks? Can you lead without a big green team? And what does digital sustainability really mean?If you're serious about sustainability, or wondering where to start, this is the conversation you need to hear.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  PortAventura World website: https://www.portaventuraworld.com/nosotros/trabaja-con-nosotrosChoni Fernández on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/choni-fern%C3%A1ndez-veciana/Choni Fernández is Customer, Sustainability and Communications Director at PortAventura World. With a background in Economics and over a decade at BASF, she joined PortAventura in 2007, where she has led Procurement, Logistics, and Sustainability. She spearheaded the company’s sustainability strategy, achieving the milestone of B Corp Certification, and now leads the newly created Customer Department to drive a more customer-centric approach. Choni also serves as Catalonia Delegate at DIRSE and is Chair of the IAAPA EMEA Sustainability Committee. Plus, live from the IAAPA Expo Europe show floor, we catch up with:Jakob Wahl, President & CEO of IAAPAhttps://iaapa.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jakob-wahl/Elliot Hall from Expression Capital Partners LLPhttps://expressioncapitalpartners.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/elliot-h-1b804a6a/Matt Barton, CEO / Co-Founder CurtainUp Ltd. & President of Themed Entertainment Association TEA https://www.curtainup.livehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-barton-99a8039/Melissa Oviedo, Chief Executive Officer, Themed Entertainment Association TEA https://www.teaconnect.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-oviedo-ruminot-90a63228/Kevin Murphy, Senior VP, Kraftwerk Living Technologieshttp://www.kraftwerk.athttps://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-murphy-854439/Jacob Thompson, CX Director, Attractions.io https://attractions.iohttps://www.linkedin.com/in/jacob-thompson-icap-151271149/ Transcriptions:  Welcome, skip the queue, to Barcelona.Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best attractions and the amazing people that work in them. I'm your host, Paul Marden, and along with my co-host, Andy Povey, and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're bringing you the latest news from IAAPA Expo Europe in Barcelona.Paul Marden: You join me today tired and just a little bit emotional at the airport after an amazing week at the show.Paul Marden: In this episode, we wrap up our time at IAAPA Expo Europe with a final look back at the show floor buzz. I catch up with Jakob Wahl, Chief Executive Officer of IAAPA, to get his reflections on an unforgettable week, from standout innovations to what's next for the global attractions industry. But first, Andy sits down with Choni Fernandez, Chief Sustainability Officer at PortAventura World, to explore what it really takes to become the first carbon neutral theme park on the planet and why sustainability must be at the heart of guest experience going forward.Andy Povey: So hello, everybody. I'm joined today by Choni Fernandez from PortAventura World. Choni is responsible for sustainability and guest experience and a number of other things, I believe, Choni. Hello and welcome to Skip the Queue. Hello. Choni Fernandez: Thank you very much for your invitation. Andy Povey: So, Choni, you guys at PortAventura World are really leading the industry and probably more than just our industry. In terms of sustainability, you were the first carbon neutral theme park in the world and in '24, the first theme park company to achieve a BCorp certification. Am I right?Choni Fernandez: Yes, you're right. It was, in fact, we are VCOPS since 2022. And yes, we were operational carbon neutral because we reduced our emissions during several years. And after that, we acquired some carbon credits to compensate the result of the balancing emissions. For scope one and two. Yes. So since then we are operational carbon neutral. That is not really an official name, but it's easy to explain what we are doing. Andy Povey: Okay. So what is the official name?Choni Fernandez: The official name, in fact, now that's interesting because it's a big discussion in the European community. We chat the terms we can use or not. In the new CCRG, that is going to change. Some words like green, sustainable, are probably forbidden, words that cannot be used any longer. And you need to speak properly about the impact of your activity without using these words that can lead to a type of greenwashing. And you need to be more clear about when you say, for instance, 'carbon neutral,' you need to say, 'we have reduced emissions, we compensate.' More explanation than just using one word that can be easily misunderstood.Andy Povey: Okay, yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Just buying carbon credits. You're actually doing something positive. Taking action. Like, is it Europe's largest solar farm?Choni Fernandez: It's the largest solar farm. That was one of the biggest at the source of Europe. And for sure, I guess, is still the biggest in Spain.Andy Povey: The biggest solar farm in Spain.Choni Fernandez: Sorry, in a holiday resort, yes. There are other very big solar plants that they produce energy for third parties, but they are not linked to a tourist industry.Andy Povey: No, that makes absolute sense. So you're generating your own power.Choni Fernandez: We generate 30%. The plant is not big enough and we have some restrictions of the government. So we cannot sell the surplus of energy we produce. So we could only make the plan as big as the low on consumption we have in a period of a year.Andy Povey: That makes absolute sense.Choni Fernandez: So that means that there are several months where we produce 100% energy we need. But then, obviously, in the peak of the season, we need extra energy. We buy from the net, but we always buy green energy from the net, too. Then 100% of the energy we consume is green energy, not coming from non-renewable.Andy Povey: It all becomes much more complicated as you dive into the detail, doesn't it?Choni Fernandez: Yes, yes, yes. Everything is much more complicated. And in Europe, yes, I would say even one step more complicated than the rest of the world because of all the regulations.Andy Povey: So what was it that inspired PortAventura World and how did you persuade PortAventura World to take sustainability so seriously?Choni Fernandez Okay, the history starts really with, I would say, a huge pain point, even when they were designing the park. And it was related to water. We are established in an area where we suffer from water scarcity many periods. So for those designers, they already designed the park with sustainability in mind. So they have created a complex system to recover all water rains in a big tank that is our Mediterranean lake.Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Choni Fernandez: So water was a treasure since the beginning. And they have also in a private-public investment. Take all the gray waters from the park, sending it to a water treatment plant several kilometres far away from the resort, and making the pipe bring the recycled water back to the resort for gardening. So PortAventura was using recycled water since 30 years ago. And that was really the starting point of sustainability at PortAventura. So we start with all the environmental impacts that the activity was going to have. And they created the park open doors in 1995. So in 1997, just two years after that, they have created the Green Team.Choni Fernandez: It's a team from different members of different departments who takes care of the environmental impacts and how they can reduce the use of water, energy and so on. And this team is still working nowadays and takes care of more complex things, certifications, but with the same, I would say, purpose, you know, that is to reduce the environmental impact of the resort, and now we start to regenerate different areas. So it's not producing impact, it's creating positive impact through regeneration.Choni Fernandez: And that was a starting point. But I like to repeat that sustainability has not fixed rules. So that is the story of Pota Aventura, because we are what we are. We are located where we are. But for instance, in the Global Sustainability Committee of IAAPA, SCARBRED was a member of that. And SCARBRED, the sustainability, had not begun for the water scarcity. They don't have this problem.Choni Fernandez: So sustainability there was more linked to the social sustainability, how to integrate communities in the project. So it really depends, again, in that moment, the momentum, you know, that we call. Where you are, who you are, what is your future footprint of your activity in your community and in the environment.Choni Fernandez: So we start with that. And year after year, we consolidate this beginning. So any new activity of PortAventura, it doesn't matter— new hotel, new park, convention centre has always followed the same philosophy that we started in 1997.An

It’s Day 3 of IAAPA Expo Europe, and this episode of Skip the Queue brings you insights from industry leaders. Hear from Andreas Andersen (Liseberg), Peter van der Schans (IAAPA EMEA), Laura Read (Marwell Zoo), Aaron Wilson (ProSlide), and Robbi Jones (Katapult) on resilience, creativity, and the future of attractions.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  https://www.liseberg.se/en/https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreas-veilstrup-andersen/Andreas Veilstrup Andersen is the CEO and President of the Liseberg Group, Sweden – operating one of Scandinavia’s most visited amusement parks. Andreas has a legal and financial background and has been working in the amusement park industry since 2000.  First in several capacities at Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen, Denmark, later as Vice President of European operations at IAAPA EMEA in Brussels, Belgium. Andreas was the 2018 Chairman of IAAPA. He currently holds board positions at Farup Sommerland and Alsik Hotel in Denmark, as well as Momentum Leisure and Leo’s Lekland, Europe’s largest chain of FEC’s. Andreas is heading up IAAPA’s sustainability initiatives, and occasionally blogs on https://reflections.liseberg.se/.Plus, live from the Day 3 of the IAAPA Expo Europe show floor, we catch up with:Aaron Wilson - Vice President, Business Development Europe & Latin America, Proslide Technologyhttps://www.proslide.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronlouiswilson/Robbie Jones - Insights Director, Katapaulthttps://www.katapult.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrrobbiejones/Peter van der Schans - Executive Director & Vice President, IAAPA EMEAhttps://iaapa.org/expos-and-events/expo-europehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-van-der-schans-87715717/Laura Read - Chief Executive, Marwell Zoohttps://www.marwell.org.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-read-she-her-98110726/ Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best attractions and the amazing people that work in them. I'm your host, Paul Marden, and together with my co-host, Andy Povey, and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're here at day 3 of IAAPA Expo Europe. On today's show, Andy talks to Andreas Andersen, CEO and President of iseberg Group, about resilience. I meet Peter van der Schans from IAAPA EMEA, and we catch up with Laura Read from Marwell Zoo. First, let's go over to Andy.Andy Povey: So I'm joined now by Andreas Andersen, who's the chief exec of Liseberg, Scandinavia's most visited amusement park. Andreas, welcome to Barcelona. It's very good to see you here. Can you tell the listeners at home a little bit about Liseberg and what you do there?Andreas Andersen:  Sure. So I'm heading up one of the classic regional city-based parks in Northern Europe. So you have Liseberg, you have Tivoli in Copenhagen, you have Kornalund in Stockholm, and Linnanmaki in Helsinki. And we're part of this tradition of parks that have a very strong community base and a long history. Liseberg is 102 years old and three years old. And also parks that represent cultural heritage as well as reflect the cities we're located in. Lovely, lovely regional park in downtown Gothenburg. And if you haven't been, you should come visit.Andy Povey: Absolutely. I must admit, I haven't made it there myself yet. It's on the bucket list. So our theme for today's recording is about recovery and resilience. And recently, in your blog address, you wrote that you feel like for the past four years, you've been in constant crisis mode. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?Andreas Andersen: Well, I think a lot of executives or just people working in this industry can recognise that the last four or five years have been very turbulent, very, very, very volatile.Andreas Andersen: It all started with the pandemic in March 2020, we were at Lisa closed down for 17 months, so we didn't have any any business at all for for 17 months. Then we reopened in the middle of '21, very very hard— you know, with a lot of restrictions and an organisation that had not been you know operating anything for a long time and we also had to let go a lot of people. Then in '22, I think everybody experienced this giant rush, you know, that everybody wanted to get back into the park. So we couldn't really keep up with demand. And that was stressful in a different way. In '23, the market in the Nordics really suffered for some reason. It was a wit, summer and inflation, and interest rates.Andreas Andersen: And everything that went with, you could say, sort of the beginning of an economic downturn. And then, in 2024, our biggest investment, our biggest project expansion in the last 100 years, a large new indoor water park burned down. So it feels like these four or five years has really been this chain of crisis that we've had to get over and manage, basically.Andy Povey: Yeah, I mean, what we're hearing from people on the show floor is that the economic and political unrest that we have all over the Western world is creating some turbulence in the market. So talk to us a little bit more about the fire at Oceania. What happened?Andreas Andersen: We had been building the water park for almost three years, and we were six, seven weeks away from handover. It was some of the last works on the right installation that went wrong. It was a plastic welding that overheated, and these things happen, as you know.Andreas Andersen: Unfortunately, we lost a colleague in the fire and that was basically, you could say, that overshadowed, I would say, everything, especially in the first weeks. Andreas Andersen: That was devastating to all of us and obviously, especially his family. But soon after, we also had to make some decisions. You know, did we want to rebuild? How did we want to rebuild? At what pace? How would we finance? etc. etc. So you also very quickly move into the next phase of a crisis management and that is recovery. And we've been in that phase ever since. Andy Povey: Interesting. It's a devastating situation. I mean, your concern obviously has to be for the team and the people involved— not just those affected directly, but everybody on the floor who feels an emotional impact from this situation. So what tips would you give, as a leader, going through a situation like that, to anyone else listening who may be facing their own challenges?Andreas Andersen:  Well, I think I learned a lot during those weeks and months. And I think I learned that in a crisis, especially of this magnitude, everything becomes very naked. Everything becomes very raw. And you cannot really play a role as a leader. You have to be yourself. You have to be authentic. And it's okay to also show emotions and be caught up in this process of figuring out what to do with the project and the team and yourself when you meet challenges of this severity. Andreas Andersen:  So I would say be yourself, but also recognise that I always say that leadership in a crisis is a little bit like your biggest asset is the confidence that people have in you. And that confidence is something you build up over years. It's a little bit like a bank account that you can then draw on when the crisis hits. But you really have to make sure that you have something on that bank account. You can't borrow confidence. It's not up for loan. So you really, you know, crisis management, from a leadership perspective, actually starts a lot earlier than the crisis. It's about, you know, building a team that works well together, that trusts you and has confidence in you. And then, when the crisis hits, you know, you can draw on that trust, draw on that confidence. So I think that's two of the learnings that I had during this process.Andy Povey: I love the idea of the bank that you can draw on. We're making deposits in our bank every day, not just as a commercial leadership level, but a personal level as well. You need to have that resilience built in yourself. A lovely analogy. And I really love the idea of authenticity. So, if we move on now to talking a little bit more about what we do in an attraction, I think authenticity plays a really big part in that. So, how important is it for you to keep innovating at Liseberg?Andreas Andersen: It's super important because we are in a regional market. I mean, if you look at how our guests are composed, you know, we have 90% Swedish people and then 10%, maybe 12% in a good year from other, especially Nordic countries. But the majority are Swedish and about 60% of our total volume is actually from the local market. And if you want to attract the local market and you want to drive revisitation, Gothenburg is a large city, but it's not a huge city. You have to keep the product fresh. You have to reinvest, reinvent, and constantly adapt. And I think that's actually... part of the, you could say, the formula for these Nordic city-based parks that we've actually had to all reinvent, you know, throughout our history. I mean, Tivoli, that was founded in 1843, it was built by this crazy entrepreneur called Geo Carstensen.Andreas Andersen: And when Tivoli opened on the 15th of August, it was late, it was over budget, and it was not quite finished. And he got a question from a journalist, you know, asking him, you know, when will Tivoli be finished? And his response was, 'Never.' Tivoli will never be finished. And I think, you know, it's almost 200 years ago that he said this, but I think it encompasses sort of the real DNA of our industry that we have to con

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey sits down with Jérôme Giacomoni, co-founder and Chairman of AEROPHILE, the world leader in tethered gas balloons and immersive aerial experiences. Jérôme shares the story of how AEROPHILE began with a simple idea, to “make everybody fly” and grew into a global company operating in multiple countries, including France and the U.S.Tune in to hear about the company’s signature attractions, including tethered balloon flights, the innovative Aerobar concept, and high-profile projects such as how you can experience flying the Olympic cauldron in Paris. Jérôme also shares how AEROPHILE has leveraged its unique platform to explore scientific initiatives like air-quality and climate-change monitoring and how he Integrates unique revenue streams from sponsorship and advertising.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  https://www.aerophile.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerome-giacomoni-3074b7/Jérôme Giacomoni is co-founder of Groupe AEROPHILE and Chairman of AEROPHILE SAS. Since 1993, he has led the company to become the world leader in tethered gas balloons and balloon flights, operating iconic sites in France, the U.S., and Cambodia, and flying over 500,000 passengers annually. He also pioneered “flying food-tainment” with the Aerophare and Aerobar. Jérôme is a member of IAAPA, serves on the board of SNELAC, and is a Team France Export ambassador, earning multiple awards for entrepreneurship and innovation. Plus, live from the Day 2 of the IAAPA Expo Europe show floor, we catch up with:Rheanna Sorby –Marketing & Creative Director,  The Seasonal Grouphttps://theseasonalgroup.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/rheanna-sorby-seasonal/Sohret Pakis – Polin Waterparkshttps://www.polin.com.tr/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sohretpakis/Thomas Collin – Sales Manager, VEX Solutionshttps://www.vex-solutions.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-collin-18a476110/Peter Cliff – CEO // Founder, Conductr.https://conductr.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-cliff/Laura Baxter – Founder, Your CMOhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-baxter-4a756466/Josh Haywood – Resort Director, Crealy Theme Park & Resorthttps://www.crealy.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/josh-haywood-68463630/ Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best attractions and the people that work in them. I'm your host Paul Marden, and with my co-host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're here at IAAPA Expo Europe. In today's episode, I go on a trip on Santa's Enchanted Elevator with the Seasonal Group, and Claire meets Peter Cliff from Conductr. But before all that, let's head over to Andy.Andy Povey: Good morning, everybody. I'm joined today by Jerome Giacomoni from AEROPHILE for our French listeners. I hope I've got that right. Jerome is the chief exec of AEROPHILE and has been the co-founder and president of AEROPHILE. And AEROPHILE supply helium-based balloon observation opportunities. I probably got the marketing on that completely wrong, Jerome. So please, can you share with our listeners what AEROPHILE is all about?Jerome Giacomoni: So AEROPHILE is a company I created with Mathieu Gobbi, my partner, 32 years ago, with a very simple idea, make everybody fly, you know, and we use a balloon to fly. So we have a tethered balloon. We have a huge, big balloon inflated with helium, a gas lighter than air. And we go up to more or less 150 meters high. up to 30 passengers. So we are linked to the ground with a cable, and the cable is linked to a winch. So you have to imagine that you have a winch that— when we go up—pulls when we go down. This is the exact opposite of an elevator because the balloon wants to go higher and higher. We have a lifting force of four tons.Andy Povey:Wow.Jerome Giacomoni:Yes, it's a big one. And so we need a cable to keep it. And thanks to this lifting force, we can fight against the wind.Jerome Giacomoni: And so the balloon can swing when you have some wind because the balloon is just pulled by the cable itself.Andy Povey: And trust me, listeners, they look absolutely spectacular. Just before we started recording, I was admitting to Jerome that I'm scared of heights. So I've stood and watched. The dining balloon, Futuroscope, never managed to pluck up the courage to try it myself.Jerome Giacomoni: This is another concept, Andy. So we have built two concepts. One is a tethered balloon, a real one with helium, with a cable, with a winch, and we fly by ourselves. The balloon flies by itself, okay? We did another concept 20 years after we created our company, so 10 years before now, in 2013, which is what we call the aero bar. It's a flying bar, and you have an inflatable balloon. to cover the gondola, but it's a fake. This is a real elevator, and you have a gondola with some winches and a metallic structure, and you go up and down. So what you saw in Futuroscope is not a balloon. It's a real elevator.Jerome Giacomoni: And the one you can see in Disneyland Paris, Disney World, Orlando or San Diego Zoo are a real balloon named a tethered balloon. So I'm glad you fell down into the trick. You caught me. Yes, I'm glad about that. But we have really two different concepts.Andy Povey: But the concept, the thing that the guest is experiencing, isn't really related to whether it's a balloon or a lift.Jerome Giacomoni: No. i think it's very different okay i think the aerobar is fun and you have the feet in the sky you feel the thrill of height and everything but you stop at 35 meters it's it's quite high for a ride but it's not a real flight And I think the balloon is a real flight. We have a balloon in Paris. We have a balloon in Budapest, Berlin. And you see the city from the sky at 150 meters high, which is very high. So you really experience a flight. With the aerobar, you have a ride, okay? So both of them are related to the sky, are related to the view, but one is really a flight, the other one is really a ride.Andy Povey: That makes absolute sense.Andy Povey: It doesn't reassure me on my fear of heights anymore, that I would like to go up three times, four times taller, higher than the one I saw first. Very interesting. So, listeners, we're often talking about technology and attractions. There's a huge amount of talk about augmented reality, about AI, about motion simulators. The reason, Jerome, we asked you to come and talk to us is because you don't do any of that. No—your experience is fantastic and it's new and it's unique, but there's no technology or very little obvious technology.Jerome Giacomoni: Yes, quite little. You know, it's amazing because we do this for now 32 years, as I told you. The first balloon was inflated in 1994. We have sold 120 balloons in more than 40 countries. And each time with the balloon, you have a magical effect, you know, because the balloon itself is very nice— because the balloon itself is a show from people looking at it from the ground. And because... The flight experience is amazing because you are really in the sky. You are really looking at the ground, at the landscape. You have no noise, you know, when you take a helicopter or plane. You have a lot of noise. You are in an enclosed airplane or helicopter. Here you are outside. You are on a balcony flying at 150 meters. And wherever we are, always we have like a magical effect of the flight. And with the flying bar, we decided to do something different— where we say, 'Why drink on ground where you can drink in the sky?'Jerome Giacomoni: So we add the drink to the ride, you know. So you are on a table and you have what we say in French conviviality. So we share a drink. We go at 35 meters and you have the thrill of the view of the height and also the conviviality of drinking. So this is another concept, but both of them are universal. And wherever we do it, we have sold 20 aero bars worldwide.Jerome Giacomoni: Everybody is very happy to have this kind of ride. I would say we are on the side of the main market. You know, we have two niche products. The balloon is a niche product. And the AeroBar is a niche product where we have another experience than a normal ride, like a roller coaster or a flume or a spinning coaster.Andy Povey: You say you're a nice product, but the balloon in Paris for the Olympics, where you lifted the cauldron, had phenomenal numbers of visitors watching. That wasn't something you could go on.Jerome Giacomoni: Yes, it was an amazing opportunity. You know, sometimes life gives you some presents.Jerome Giacomoni: And imagine that we were contacted by the Olympic Organisation Committee one day, and we believed it was a joke. And they said, 'We need to talk to you.' And then we discovered that instead of flying humans, they asked us to fly a cauldron. So the Olympic cauldron. And we have like one year and a half of design and manufacturing.Jerome Giacomoni: And then, at 11 pm, 25, the balloon has to fly in front of everybody. I can tell you it was a very stressful time. But so nice and so amazing to have experiences. So, yes, the balloon suddenly was visible by everybody. And that's back now in Paris, isn't it? Yes. First of all, the balloon has to stay only twice— 15 days. You know, you have the Olympics and the Paralympics. So we were open only 30 days in total. And the success was so huge that every night, you have dozens of thousands of people coming to look at it. That's why the mayor of Paris and the French

In this episode of Skip the Queue, host Paul Marden speaks with Andy Hadden, founder of the Lost Shore Surf Resort in Scotland. Andy shares the remarkable journey from his sporting background and early property career to discovering wave technology in the Basque Country, which inspired him to bring inland surfing to Scotland. Despite starting with no money and no land, Andy raised over £100 million and built one of the world’s most advanced inland surf destinations. He explains how Lost Shore Surf Resort combines world-class waves with a strong community focus, sustainability initiatives, and partnerships with schools and universities to deliver real social and economic impact.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  Lost Shore Surf Resort website: https://www.lostshore.com/Andy Hadded on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andy-hadden-94989a67/Andy Hadden is the founder of Lost Shore Surf Resort, Scotland’s first inland surf destination and home to Europe’s largest wave pool. Opened in November 2024 near Edinburgh, Lost Shore is the country’s largest sports infrastructure project since the Commonwealth Games and now attracts a truly international audience of surfers, families, and brands. With a background in insolvency and investment surveying, Andy led the venture from concept to completion - securing major institutional backing and building a multidisciplinary team to deliver a world-class destination. Long before 'ESG' was a buzzword, he embedded environmental and social value into Lost Shore’s DNA, helping set new benchmarks for responsible development. As home to the Surf Lab with Edinburgh Napier University, Lost Shore also serves as a global hub for performance, product R&D, and surf therapy. Live from the show floor, we’ll also be joined by:Bakit Baydaliev, CEO/ Cofounder of DOF Roboticshttps://dofrobotics.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/bakitbaydaliev/Hamza Saber, Expert Engineer at TÜV SÜDhttps://www.tuvsud.com/enhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/hamzasaber/David Jungmann, Director of Business Development at Accessohttps://www.accesso.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjungmann/Kristof Van Hove, Tomorrowlandhttps://www.tomorrowland.com/home/https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristof-van-hove-2ba3b953/ Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about attractions and the amazing people who work with them. I'm your host, Paul Marden, and with my co-host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're coming to you from IAAPA Expo Europe. This is the first of three episodes from the show floor that will come to you over the next three days. Firstly, I'm joined today by Andy Hadden, the founder of Lost Shores Surf Resort.Paul Marden: Andy, tell us a little bit about your journey. You've opened this amazing attraction up there in Scotland where I was on holiday a couple of weeks ago. Tell us a little bit about that attraction. Why this and why in Scotland?Andy Hadden: Well, I grew up locally and I came from more of a sporting family than so much of a business family. My father was the international rugby coach for a while and I played a lot of sport. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Andy Hadden: Yeah, yeah. So we always had this thing about there wasn't enough facilities here in Scotland because Scotland is a place which doesn't necessarily have all the resources and the access to funds and everything else like that. But one thing we noted with, you know, if you created facilities, whether they be good tennis facilities, good 4G football pitches, whatever it was. It allowed the environment around it to prosper, the communities around it to prosper. And, of course, I was a charter surveyor by trade, so I worked in insolvency and then in investment. So I sold two sites to that market. Andy Hadden: But I always surfed. I always surfed. So whilst I was down in Birmingham in England, when I actually got an email in 2012 talking about some, you know, some surfy thing that might have been happening in Bristol, I called the head of destination consulting up and I said, 'this sounds like nonsense, to be honest', because I surf and you can't really be talking about real surfing waves here. It's got to be something, you know, different. He said, 'No, no, there's these guys in the Basque country.' So I took a flight over there and that day changed everything for me. Paul Marden: So what was it that you saw? Andy Hadden: I went to see what was back then a secret test facility in the mountains of the Basque Country. It was very cloak and dagger. I had to follow the guide and give me the email address. I found this all very exciting. When I went and actually saw this facility, I realised that for the decade before that, there'd been all these amazing minds, engineers and surfers working on what they believed could be, you know, a big future of not just the inland surfing movement that's now burgeoning into a multi-billion dollar global movement, but it could really affect surfing. And if it was going to affect surfing as a sport, and it's now an Olympic sport because of these facilities, they wanted to make sure that it was a very accessible piece of kit. So surfing, it could affect surfing if ran by the right people in the right ways and really communicate that stoke of the sport to the masses.Paul Marden: So what is it that you've built in Edinburgh then? Tell me a little bit about it.Andy Hadden: So we've delivered a wave garden cove, which is a 52-module wave garden, which is about the size of three football pitches, and it can run hundreds of waves an hour, touch of a button and it can run in skiing parlance anything from green runs right through to sort of black powder runs. And the beauty of it is you can have people that are the better surfers out the back and just like at the beach at the front you've got their kids and learning how to surf on the white water. So we're finding it to be a really amazing experience— not just for surfers who are obviously flocking to us, but already here in Scotland, eight months in, tens of thousands of new surfers are all coming back and just going, 'Wow, we've got this thing on our doorstep.' This is blowing our minds, you know. Paul Marden: Wowzers, wowzers. Look, I'm guessing that the infrastructure and the technology that you need to be able to create this kind of inland wave centre is key to what you're doing. That you've got to access some funds, I guess, to be able to do this. This is not a cheap thing for you to be able to put together, surely.Andy Hadden: Yeah, correct. I mean, you know, I have questioned my own sanity at times. But when I started 10 years ago, I had no money and no land. But I did have some property expertise and I wanted to do it in Edinburgh, a close-up place that I cared about. So we have excellent networks. For a few years, you know. Whilst we've ended up raising over  £100 million in structured finance from a standing start, it took me a couple of years just to raise £40,000. And then I used that to do some quite bizarre things like flying everyone that I cared about, you know, whether they were from the surf community or... Community stakeholders, politicians, and everyone over to the test facility to see themselves— what I could see to sort of—well, is it? Am I just getting carried away here? Or is there something in this? And then, on top of that, you know, we sponsored the world's first PhD in surf therapy with that first $5,000. So now we have a doctor in surf therapy who now takes me around the world to California and all these places. How does business actually really genuinely care about, you know, giving back? And I'm like, yeah, because we said we're going to do this once.Andy Hadden: We got to do it right. And it took us a decade. But yeah, we raised the money and we're very happy to be open.Paul Marden: So I mentioned a minute ago, I was holidaying in Scotland. I bookended Edinburgh— both sides of the holiday. And then I was in Sky for a few days as well. There's something about Edinburgh at the moment. There is a real energy. Coming up as a tourist, there was way too much for me to be able to do. It seems to be a real destination at the moment for people.Andy Hadden: Yeah, well, I think, coming from the background I came from, if I knew I was going to deliver a surfing park in the edge of Edinburgh, I then wanted to do it in the least risky way possible. So to do that, I felt land ownership was key and three business plans was also very key. Edinburgh's in need of accommodation regardless, and Edinburgh's also in need of good places, a good F&B for friends and family just to go and hang out on the weekends. And then, of course, you have the surfing, and we've got a big wellness aspect too. We also sit next to Europe's largest indoor climbing arena. And we're obviously very well connected in the centre of Scotland to both Edinburgh and Scotland. So, so many things to do. So, yeah, I mean, the Scottish tourism landscape has always been good, but it's just getting better and better as we see this as a future-proof marketplace up here. You know, we're not building ships anymore.Andy Hadden: Well, in fact, we got a contract the other week to build one, so maybe that's wrong. But the point is, we see it as a very future-proof place because the Americans are flagging, the Europeans are flagging, and they just want to feel like they're part of something very Scottish. And that's what we've tried to do

We’ve well and truly kicked off season 7 in style as we welcome our first guest onto the show - IAAPA Board Chairman, Massimiliano Freddi. In this episode, Paul sits down with Massimiliano Freddi, the first Italian to ever hold the role of IAAPA Chairman in the association’s 107-year history. From his early dream of running a theme park to founding Wonderwood and shaping Italy’s unique attractions landscape, Massi shares how passion, storytelling, and a people-first mindset continue to drive his vision for the industry. Skip The Queue is back for Season 7 and we’re announcing some big changes! Get ready for new hosts, a fresh new look, weekly content and find out where you can catch us live at events to be part of the action.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn, or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 24th September 2025. The winner will be contacted via LinkedIn or Bluesky. Show references:  https://iaapa.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/freddi/Massimiliano Freddi  a leading figure in the amusement and entertainment industry, has been appointed president of the steering committee of IAAPA (International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions, the leading international association for attractions and theme parks) for 2025. This is the first time since the foundation of the World Association of Attractions (1918) that this position has been entrusted to an Italian.The appointment underscores his extensive experience and significant contribution to the global industry. Freddi brings a wealth of experience gained at some of the industry's most prominent companies. His career began in marketing and press office for the Italian market at Disneyland Paris. He subsequently joined Leolandia.A visionary entrepreneur, in 2018, Massimiliano Freddi founded Wonderwood, an adventure and amusement park for all ages, of which he is currently CEO, in his hometown of Trarego Viggiona, in the Verbano-Cusio-Ossola region on Lake Maggiore. This growing business has redeveloped several local facilities and provided employment to several young residents of the small towns in the area. His passion for the sector also extends to academia. Since 2016, he has been a member of the coaching staff of Seth Godin's Altmba and is a professor of marketing and experience design at IULM University in Milan. At the same university, where Italy's first course in theme park and attraction management was introduced, he teaches subjects such as consumer experience, marketing, and soft skills as an adjunct professor. Freddi was also one of the original founders of Parksmania, the first newspaper dedicated to amusement parks.Freddi will continue to bring his innovative vision and deep industry knowledge to the global association, helping shape the future of attractions internationally. Regarding Italy, he commented that he sees great potential and wants to help realise it. Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best visitor attractions and the people that work in them. I'm Paul Marden, along with my co-hosts Andy Povey and Sinead Kimberley, I spend my days working with ambitious attractions like theme parks, museums, galleries, and science centres to help them to attract more guests. Paul Marden: Today on Skip the Queue, I'm joined by someone who has been shaping the attractions industry in truly remarkable ways. Massimiliano Freddi is the first Italian ever to hold the role of chairman in IAAPA's 107-year history. A milestone that not only celebrates his career, but also shines a light on Italy's growing influence in the global attractions landscape. Massimiliano has worn many hats across his journey, from fulfilling his childhood dream of becoming a Theme Park Managing Director at just 28, where he grew guest numbers from 300,000 to over 800,000, to founding his own destinations like Wonderwood on Lake Maggiore and Wonderwood Spina Verde, overlooking Lake Como. Along the way, he's pioneered inclusive and eco-conscious practices, championing the power of storytelling and shown how attractions can thrive by creating meaningful experiences for every guest.Paul Marden: Beyond his leadership roles, Massimiliano is also a Professor of Marketing and Experience Design at IULM University in Milan, where he's passionate about nurturing the next generation of talent in our sector. Often described as both a dreamer and a doer, he brings together vision and practicality in a way that continues to inspire operators around the world.Paul Marden: Massimilliano, welcome to the show. It really is a pleasure to have you with us. We always start Skip the Queue and the kickoff of season seven, no less, is going to be no different. We always start with an icebreaker question. And I'm thinking back to, we're just back off of our summer holidays, aren't we? For your perfect holiday, would it start with planes, trains or driving.Massimiliano Freddi: Oh, that's a beautiful question. By the way, congratulations because you've pronounced Massimiliano in a very correct way. So that's unusual. I have a complicated name. I know, I know.Massimiliano Freddi: Hey, I would say train. Train is really, really part of the way that I love to travel with. And unfortunately, too often it happens by car, which I like a little bit less. I get dizzy, you know, and stuff. Train is my ultimate, ultimate way to travel.Paul Marden: I did a sleeper train to Scotland a couple of years ago, and it was amazing. I absolutely loved it. And what's brilliant is there's more of those sleeper trains hitting Europe, aren't there now? So there really is very few excuses for us not to be holidaying with the start with some elegant sleeper train. My only disappointment was that there was no murder on the train, so I couldn't have an Agatha Christie style novel themed around my train  journey, but uh, you know.Massimiliano Freddi: I mean, I mean, it could have been the Hogwarts Express, but apparently, it doesn't run every day, so.Paul Marden: That would be pretty cool as well. I've just come back from Edinburgh, actually, and we saw, you know, the viaduct where the train goes to Hogwarts, and completely unplanned, there was a steam train that went over the bridge whilst we were there. It was amazing.Massimiliano Freddi: Happy go lucky.Paul Marden: Yeah. So enough of my holidays. Let's kick off talking about you and IAAPA. What can international markets learn from attractions in Italy? Tell us a little bit about the attractions landscape over there in Italy at the moment.Massimiliano Freddi: Yes. So let's say that the attraction landscape is very similar, somehow, to how the restaurants or the retail landscape has always been, which means a lot of mom and pop stores. And I think that what people who travel to Italy love is to find something that is one of a kind that you can find only in Italy. I have a deep respect for Starbucks, but I'm always... questioning myself, you know, when somebody comes to Italy, do they really want to find Starbucks? Is this a real thing? So when it comes to parks and attractions, Italy has not faced a big concentration in players like it has happened in other countries. Of course, some big players are there. Parques Reunidos owns Mirabilandia, which is the second most important Italian park. And the most important Italian park is Gardaland, owned by Merlin Entertainment. Then we have a few other groups. Owning and operating some of the facilities, but let's say that, out of 250 parks between—or, you said, attractions— that's very correct now, if we talk about attractions, now the number is endless, because where is the border?Paul Marden: What is an attraction? Yeah, that's a big philosophical question.Massimiliano Freddi: Okay, okay, so let's say that, once upon a time, we used to count parks. So when we talk about parks, we have roughly 250 parks in Italy, and most of them are tiny, tiny, tiny, and they are independently owned. That's my case. I own and operate two parks right now, and I'm about to open, a third location that will be an indoor one this November. And so, yes, I think that what what others can learn from Italy i think is to keep this respect for your roots and to make sure that you don't make every attraction look like another one, but you kind of keep it, you know, different.Massimiliano Freddi: And so it's a matter of the mix of how people can have fun and get entertained. But it's really also about retail and about food and about shows and festivals and you name it, you know. So there are these places that we see on Instagram and immediately we say, oh, that's, I mean, when I see a picture of the Empire State Building or of the Tower Bridge. I know immediately where it belongs to. And so I think that, with attractions, we need to think in the future always about this. Guests coming to visit us, they want to have the ultimate experience and they want to have something that's different from anything they've done before. So this is the responsibility we have.Paul Marden: And a big one it is. Let's talk a little bit about the experience economy. And especially when we think about, you know, beyond the parks, there's this... massive ecosystem around the outside of different ways that people can enjoy themselves. What does that experience economy mean to you, especially in Italy?Massimiliano Freddi: The experience economy, first of all, it truly matters to me, the book. Because in 1999, it was once u

Skip The Queue is back for Season 7 and we’re announcing some big changes! Get ready for new hosts, a fresh new look, weekly content and find out where you can catch us live at events to be part of the action.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden  and Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. Show references: Paul Marden The CEO of Rubber Cheese, Paul pairs two decades of digital expertise with a love of creative problem solving, making him the go-to guy for turning tricky tech into seamless guest journeys, all delivered with his trademark energy and wit.https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmarden/ Andy Povey The Co-CEO of Crowd Convert, Andy brings sharp insights, deep industry knowledge and notorious anecdotes from decades in attractions.https://www.linkedin.com/in/andypovey/  Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best visitor attractions and the people that work in them. I'm Paul Marden. Along with my co-hosts, Andy Povey and Sinead Kimberley, I spend my days working with ambitious attractions like theme parks, museums, galleries, and science centres to help them to attract more guests. In today's episode, Andy and I talk about what's coming up for Skip the Queue as we enter Season 7.Paul Marden: Seven seasons, hey? Good lord. How very exciting. We've had our summer holidays. We've had our little break, but there's no rest for the wicked, is there?Andy Povey: Absolutely not. You say it's a busman's holiday, really, isn't it?  Working in our industry.Paul Marden: I think it is, isn't it? Life has changed quite a lot for us recently, hasn't it? In the last few months, with the advent of Crowd Convert and Merac coming back to life again, we've been out on the road going everywhere, haven't we?Andy Povey: Absolutely everywhere. And I promise I'm not going to bitch about electric cars and charging.Andy Povey: That's the only thing I've found that annoys me more than a poor online ticketing experience.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So we have both been visiting lots of clients. It's been very exciting. But we've also both had our summer holidays. Which attraction is memorable for you from your recent holiday?Andy Povey: Do you know, there's so many. We took our girls to the longest named tourist attraction in the world, I think. Warner Brothers Studio Tour London, the making of Harry Potter. On their 11th birthday. Oh, how was that? We had a beautiful experience. They have this really smart trick there where if they note your birthday, they give you a badge that says, 'It's my birthday.'Andy Povey: It's modelled on the birthday cake that Hagrid gave Harry. So it's all completely in keeping and in theme. So my daughters were walking around with these and every member of staff we saw that saw the badge wished them happy birthday. The first member of staff that did it absolutely blew my girls' minds. They hadn't associated it with the badge that they were wearing and they thought that they were the most special people on the face of the earth.Andy Povey: Absolutely superb. And the experience itself is wonderful. So that was probably the most memorable. I did something else very recently that was a little bit unusual. So I'm a man in my 50s. I was a teenager, probably not even a teenager, a kid when Grease came out. And all my mates and all my friends raved about it, and I didn't go and see it. And I've been very proud of the fact that I've never seen Grease.Andy Povey: Until last weekend. When we went to the Secret Cinema showing of Grease in Battersea Park, wow, wow, what an experience. Live actors, live scenes with the film running in the background, the fairground sitting outside the auditorium, where the final set, if you've watched Grease ever, where they're in the fairground, went out there.Andy Povey: Such a fantastic experience. Really does make me wonder why we don't have more of our larger parks doing that kind of stuff in partnership with Secret Cinema. It would make you stay for the evening and really extend your day. Absolutely superb experience. So, if you get the opportunity to go and see it, please do.Paul Marden: How very cool.Andy Povey: Tell them Andy sent you, which will mean absolutely nothing.  How about you?Paul Marden: We recently went to Scotland. We spent a day, which was really not enough, in Edinburgh. And actually, as you're talking about the Harry Potter experience, we did a little Harry Potter thing because there is a graveyard, Greyfriars Bobby's graveyard.Paul Marden: It was the inspiration for many of the names in Harry Potter. And this graveyard was, I mean, it was chock full of every nationality of tourist you could possibly imagine, plus the three of us wandering around all trying to find Harry Potter themed gravestones. Yeah, so we found Tom Riddle's tombstone. We saw a McGonagall. Yeah, it was just, that was quite magical. But the thing that sticks in my head is we also visited the Real Mary King's Close. And when you walk along the Royal Mile, falling off the side of the Royal Mile are all of these tenement closes that three of them were capped over a couple of hundred years ago and completely forgotten about. Continuum attractions have turned them into an attraction that you can wander around. You get a guided tour of this time capsule of what life was like in a tenement block. In Edinburgh, it was rated last year as the best tourist attraction in Britain, according to TripAdvisor.Paul Marden: And it really, really was magical. It was such a fun visit. We were guided around by a tour guide in costume and in character the whole way around. And at the end of it, she introduced herself as coming from Philadelphia.Paul Marden: She was really really great guide, and I just loved it. I've seen them in the Rubber Cheese Survey for the last four years, and thought, 'What a funny name for an attraction? I wonder what that is?' And so, when I saw it, I had to go. I loved every minute of it, and it was brilliant.Andy Povey: I agree, it's a fantastic place. Did you see J. K. Rowling's handprints just around the corner?Paul Marden: No.Andy Povey: In the courtyard next to the entrance?Paul Marden: No, I didn't.Andy Povey: See, I think they were trying to do something like the Hollywood Walk of Fame, where there are famous people's handprints. I should have told you before. Is there something to go back for?Paul Marden: Oh, we'll definitely be going back. There was so much there in Edinburgh that we didn't get to see. You just couldn't do it in a day.Paul Marden: But so much fun. So much fun.Paul Marden: So we are into season seven. And just like the last few seasons, we've got lots of ideas, brimming with ideas, few changes. And we thought we would tease them for you here in this short non-episode, just to tell you about some of the things that are coming up. And yeah, shall we?Paul Marden: We'll talk about the first thing that you came up with, which was the move to weekly content.Andy Povey:  You're blaming me for this?Paul Marden: Absolutely. Absolutely.Andy Povey: I mean, the objective was to double the listenership of the podcast. And so you did that by doubling my work. And it seemed like it would be really, really easy to do that if we doubled the episodes.Andy Povey: So, yeah, we're going weekly. I'm sure we're going to have plenty to fill it. Because you look at all of the interesting stories we come across, the people that we talk to, the things that we want to talk about, and we end up editing and cutting things. So I'm convinced that we're going to have loads of really exciting things to talk about. We're also going to introduce a couple of different themes. So do you want to talk about the Millennium-funded projects?Paul Marden: Yes, so this is carrying on the theme that I started back at the back end of Season 6. When I spoke to another Edinburgh attraction, Dynamic Earth. They were a good example of a Millennium project that was obviously kicked off 25 years ago. And we had a lovely conversation about what has been the challenges, what has been the opportunities for them in the last 25 years, and what does the future look like? I'm off to the Association of Science and Discovery Centres conference next week. That episode will be out in a few weeks' time. And we're going to be talking a lot about science centres. and how they can thrive over the next 25 years. But we'll be talking to some other Millennium projects as well in the season ahead. So Charles Bishop from the National Space Centre, if you're listening, give me a call.Andy Povey: I'm going to try and hound you to appear on the podcast.Paul Marden: We've also, this is very self-indulgent, but we are going to be going through a little bit of a rebrand. The Skip the Queue brand has stayed the same for the six seasons. And our friends at Plaster Creative Communications have been working really hard. They're the only reason why we could possibly go weekly with our content because Emily and Sami are helping us to ramp up our content and working with us closely. But they've also helped us with our rebrand, which is also going to be an audio rebrand. So there's going to be some new audio tickling your ears coming up as well, which is very exciting.Andy Povey: It's not just the rebrand though, is it? Let's talk about the other things that we're going to be doing with Skip the Queue.Paul Marden: Yeah. Should we talk playbooks?Andy Povey: Absolutely. Tell me what it means.Paul Marden: So I, for a long time, thought that there was something that Skip the Queue could do because, you know. Yes, this is our baby, but it is a lot of hard work from across the industry that goes towards making the podcast the

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 23rd July 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references:  Sam Mullins, Trustee at SS Great Britainhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/sammullins/https://www.ssgreatbritain.org/ Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: What an amazing day out here. Welcome to Skip the Queue. The podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions, I'm your host, Paul Marden, and today you join me for the last episode of the season here in a very sunny and very pleasant Bristol Dockyard. I'm here to visit the SS Great Britain and one of their trustees, Sam Mullins, who until recently, was the CEO of London Transport Museum. And I'm going to be talking to Sam about life after running a big, family friendly Museum in the centre of London, and what comes next, and I'm promising you it's not pipes and the slippers for Sam, he's been very busy with the SSGreat Britain and with other projects that we'll talk a little more about. But for now, I'm going to enjoy poodling across the harbour on boat number five awaiting arrival over at the SS Great Britain. Paul Marden: Is there much to catch in the water here?Sam Mullins: According to some research, there's about 36 different species of fish. They catch a lot of cream. They catch Roach, bullet, bass car. Big carpet there, maybe, yeah, huge carpet there. And then your European great eel is here as well, right? Yeah, massive things by the size of your leg, big heads. It's amazing. It goes to show how receipt your life is. The quality of the water is a lot better now. Paul Marden: Oh yeah, yeah, it's better than it used to be years ago. Thank you very much. All right. Cheers. Have a good day. See you later on. So without further ado, let's head inside. So where should we head? Too fast. Sam Mullins: So we start with the stern of the ship, which is the kind of classic entrance view, you know. Yeah, coming up, I do. I love the shape of this ship as you as you'll see.Paul Marden: So lovely being able to come across the water on the boat and then have this as you're welcome. It's quite a.Sam Mullins: It's a great spot. Isn't it?Paul Marden: Really impactful, isn't it? Sam Mullins:  Because the amazing thing is that it's going this way, is actually in the dry dock, which was built to build it. Paul Marden: That's amazing. Sam Mullins: So it came home. It was clearly meant to be, you know,Paul Marden:  Quite the circular story.Sam Mullins:  Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Paul Marden:  Thank you. Wow. Look at that view.Sam Mullins: So that's your classic view.Paul Marden:  So she's in a dry dock, but there's a little bit of water in there, just to give us an idea of what's going on. Sam Mullins: Well, what's actually going on in here is, preserving the world's first iron ship. So it became clear, after he'd come back from the Falklands, 1970 came back to Bristol, it became clear that the material of the ship was rusting away. And if something wasn't done, there'd be nothing left, nothing left to show. So the innovative solution is based on a little bit of science if you can reduce the relative humidity of the air around the cast iron hull of the ship to around about 20% relative humidity, corrosion stops. Rusting stops. It's in a dry dock. You glaze over the dock at kind of water line, which, as you just noticed, it gives it a really nice setting. It looks like it's floating, yeah, it also it means that you can then control the air underneath. You dry it out, you dehumidify it. Big plant that dries out the air. You keep it at 20% and you keep the ship intact. Paul Marden: It's interesting, isn't it, because you go to Mary Rose, and you go into the ship Hall, and you've got this hermetically sealed environment that you can maintain all of these beautiful Tudor wooden pieces we're outside on a baking hot day. You don't have the benefit of a hermetically sealed building, do you to keep this? Sam Mullins: I guess the outside of the ship is kind of sealed by the paint. That stops the air getting to the bit to the bare metal. We can go down into the trigger, down whilst rise up.Paul Marden:  We're wondering. Sam, yeah, why don't you introduce yourself, tell listeners a little bit about your background. How have we ended up having this conversation today.Sam Mullins: I'm Sam Mullins. I'm a historian. I decided early on that I wanted to be a historian that worked in museums and had an opportunity to kind of share my fascination with the past with museum visitors. So I worked in much Wenlock in Shropshire. I worked created a new museum in market Harbour, a community museum in Leicestershire. I was director of museums in St Albans, based on, you know, great Roman Museum at Verulamium, okay. And ended up at London Transport Museum in the 90s, and was directed there for a long time.Paul Marden: Indeed, indeed. Oh, we are inside now and heading underground.Sam Mullins: And you can hear the thrumming in the background. Is the dehumidification going on. Wow. So we're descending into thevery dry dock.Paul Marden: So we're now under water level. Yes, and the view of the ceiling with the glass roof, which above looked like a lovely little pond, it's just beautiful, isn't it?Sam Mullins: Yes, good. It sets it off both in both directions, really nicely.Paul Marden: So you've transitioned now, you've moved on from the Transport Museum. And I thought that today's episode, we could focus a little bit on what is, what's life like when you've moved on from being the director of a big, famous, influential, family friendly Museum. What comes next? Is it pipe and slippers, or are there lots of things to do? And I think it's the latter, isn't it? Sam Mullins: Yes. Well, you know, I think people retire either, you know, do nothing and play golf, or they build, you know, an interesting portfolio. I wanted to build, you know, something a bit more interesting. And, you know, Paul, there's that kind of strange feeling when you get to retire. And I was retiring from full time executive work, you kind of feel at that point that you've just cracked the job. And at that point, you know, someone gives you, you know, gives you a card and says, "Thank you very much, you've done a lovely job." Kind of, "Off you go." So having the opportunity to deploy some of that long term experience of running a successful Museum in Covent Garden for other organisations was part of that process of transition. I've been writing a book about which I'm sure we'll talk as well that's been kind of full on this year, but I was a trustee here for a number of years before I retired. I think it's really good career development for people to serve on a board to see what it's like, you know, the other side of the board. Paul Marden: I think we'll come back to that in a minute and talk a little bit about how the sausage is made. Yeah, we have to do some icebreaker questions, because I probably get you already. You're ready to start talking, but I'm gonna, I'm just gonna loosen you up a little bit, a couple of easy ones. You're sat in front of the telly, comedy or drama?Sam Mullins: It depends. Probably.Paul Marden: It's not a valid answer. Sam Mullins: Probably, probably drama.Paul Marden: Okay, if you need to talk to somebody, is it a phone call or is it a text message that you'll send?Sam Mullins:  Face to face? Okay, much better. Okay, always better. Paul Marden: Well done. You didn't accept the premise of the question there, did you? Lastly, if you're going to enter a room, would you prefer to have a personal theme tune played every time you enter the room. Or would you like a personal mascot to arrive fully suited behind you in every location you go to?Sam Mullins: I don't know what the second one means, so I go for the first one.Paul Marden: You've not seen a football mascot on watching American football or baseball?Sam Mullins: No, I try and avoid that. I like real sport. I like watching cricket. Paul Marden: They don't do that in cricket. So we are at the business end of the hull of the ship, aren't we? We're next to the propeller. Sam Mullins: We're sitting under the stern. We can still see that lovely, gilded Stern, saying, Great Britain, Bristol, and the windows and the coat of arms across the stern of the ship. Now this, of course, was the biggest ship in the world when built. So not only was it the first, first iron ship of any scale, but it was also third bigger than anything in the Royal Navy at the time. Paul Marden: They talked about that, when we were on the warrior aim the other day, that it was Brunel that was leading the way on what the pinnacle of engineering was like. It was not the Royal Navy who was convinced that it was sail that needed to lead. Sam Mullins: Yeah, Brunel had seen a much smaller, propeller driven vessel tried out, which was being toured around the country. And so they were midway through kind of design of this, when they decided it wasn't going to be a paddle steamer, which its predecessor, the world's first ocean liner, the Great Western. A was a paddle steamer that took you to New York. He decided that, and he announced to the board that he was going to make a ship that was driven by a propeller, which was the first, and this is, this is actually a replica of his patent propeller design. Paul Marden: So, this propeller was, is not the original to the show, okay?Sam Mullins: Later in its career, it had the engines taken out, a

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 9th July 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: Matthew Tanner, Vice President of AIM and Independent Consultant https://aim-museums.co.uk/Richard Morsley, CEO of Chatham Historic Dockyardhttps://thedockyard.co.uk/Hannah Prowse, CEO, Portsmouth Historic Quarterhttps://portsmouthhq.org/Dominic Jones, CEO Mary Rose Trusthttps://maryrose.org/Andrew Baines, Executive Director, Museum Operations, National Museum of the Royal Navyhttps://www.nmrn.org.uk/ Transcriptions: Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue. The podcast of people working in and working with visitor attractions, and today you join me in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard. I am actually in the shadow of HMS Victory at the moment, right next door to the Mary Rose. And I'm at the Association of Independent Museum's annual conference, and it is Wednesday night, and we're just about to enjoy the conference dinner. We've been told by Dominic Jones, CEO of Mary Rose, to expect lots of surprises and unexpected events throughout the meal, which I understand is a walking meal where we'll partake of our food and drink as we're wandering around the museum itself, moving course to course around different parts of the museum. So that sounds very exciting. Paul Marden:  Today's episode, I'm going to be joined by a I don't know what the collective noun is, for a group of Maritime Museum senior leaders, but that's what they are, and we're going to be talking about collaboration within and between museums, especially museums within the maritime sector. Is this a subject that we've talked about a lot previously? I know we've had Dominic Jones before as our number one most listened episode talking about collaboration in the sector, but it's a subject I think is really worthwhile talking about. Paul Marden: Understanding how museums work together, how they can stretch their resources, increase their reach by working together and achieving greater things than they can do individually. I do need to apologise to you, because it's been a few weeks since our last episode, and there's been lots going on in Rubber Cheese HQ, we have recently become part of a larger organisation, Crowd Convert, along with our new sister organisation, the ticketing company, Merac.Paul Marden:  So there's been lots of work for me and Andy Povey, my partner in crime, as we merge the two businesses together. Hence why there's been a little bit of a lapse between episodes. But the good news is we've got tonight's episode. We've got one more episode where I'll be heading down to Bristol, and I'll talk a little bit more about that later on, and then we're going to take our usual summer hiatus before we start the next season. So two more episodes to go, and I'm really excited. Paul Marden:  Without further ado, I think it's time for us to meet our guests tonight. Let me welcome our guests for this evening. Matthew Tanner, the Vice President of AIM and an Independent Consultant within the museum sector. You've also got a role within international museums as well. Matthew, remind me what that was.Matthew Tanner: That's right, I was president of the International Congress of Maritime Museums.Paul Marden: And that will be relevant later. I'm sure everyone will hear. Richard Morsley, CEO of Chatham Historic Dockyard Trust. I've got Hannah Prowse with me, the CEO of Portsmouth Historic Quarter, the inimitable chief cheerleader for Skip the Queue Dominic Jones, CEO of Mary Rose Trust.Dominic Jones: Great to be back.Paul Marden: I expect this to be the number one episode because, you know, it's got to knock your previous episode off the hit list.Dominic Jones: Listen with guests like this. It's going to be the number one. You've got the big hitters, and you've even got one more to go. This is gonna be incredible.Paul Marden:  Exactly. And I've got Andrew Baines, the Executive Director Museum Operations at the National Museum of the Royal Navy. That's quite a title.Dominic Jones: He loves a title that's a lot shorter than the last.Paul Marden: Okay, so we always have icebreakers. And actually, it must be said, listeners, you, unless you're watching the YouTube, we've got the the perfect icebreaker because we've started on Prosecco already. So I'm feeling pretty lubed up. Cheers. So icebreakers, and I'm going to be fair to you, I'm not going to pick on you individually this time, which is what I would normally do with my victims. I'm going to ask you, and you can chime in when you feel you've got the right answer. So first of all, I'd like to hear what the best concert or festival is that you've been to previously.Hannah Prowse: That's really easy for me, as the proud owner of two teenage daughters, I went Tay Tay was Slay. Slay. It was amazing. Three hours of just sheer performative genius and oh my god, that girl stamina. It was just insane. So yeah, it's got to be Tay Tay.Paul Marden: Excellent. That's Taylor Swift. For those of you that aren't aware and down with the kids, if you could live in another country for a year, what would Dominic Jones: We not all answer the gig. I've been thinking of a gig. Well, I was waiting. Do we not all answer one, Rich has got a gig. I mean, you can't just give it to Hannah. Richard, come in with your gig.Richard Morsley: Thank you. So I can't say it's the best ever, but. It was pretty damn awesome. I went to see pulp at the O2 on Saturday night. They were amazing. Are they still bringing it? They were amazing. Incredible. Transport me back.Matthew Tanner:  Members mentioned the Mary Rose song. We had this.Dominic Jones: Oh, come on, Matthew, come on. That was brilliant. That was special. I mean, for me, I'm not allowed to talk about it. It's probably end ups. But you know, we're not allowed to talk you know, we're not allowed to talk about other than here. But I'm taking my kids, spoiler alert, if you're listening to see Shawn Mendes in the summer. So that will be my new favourite gig, because it's the first gig for my kids. So I'm very excited about that. That's amazing. Amazing. Andrew, any gigs?Andrew Baines: It has to be Blondie, the amazing. Glen Beck writing 2019, amazing.Dominic Jones:  Can you get any cooler? This is going to be the number one episode, I can tell.Paul Marden:  Okay, let's go with number two. If you could live in another country for a year, which one would you choose? Hannah Prowse: Morocco. Paul Marden: Really? Oh, so you're completely comfortable with the heat. As I'm wilting next.Hannah Prowse: Completely comfortable. I grew up in the Middle East, my as an expat brat, so I'm really happy out in the heat. I just love the culture, the art, the landscape, the food, the prices, yeah, Morocco. For me, I thinkMatthew Tanner: I've been doing quite a lot of work recently in Hong Kong. Oh, wow. It's this amazing mix of East and West together. There's China, but where everybody speaks English, which is fantastic.Dominic Jones:  I lived in Hong Kong for a few years, and absolutely loved it. So I do that. But I think if I could choose somewhere to live, it's a it's a bit of cheating answer, because the country's America, but the place is Hawaii, because I think I'm meant for Hawaii. I think I've got that sort of style with how I dress, not today, because you are but you can get away with it. We're hosting, so. Paul Marden:  Last one hands up, if you haven't dived before, D with Dom.Dominic Jones: But all of your listeners can come Dive the 4d at the Mary Rose in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard, as well as the other amazing things you can do here with our friends and National Museum of Portsmouth Historic Quarter, he will cut this bit out.Paul Marden:  Yeah, there will be a little bit of strict editing going on. And that's fair. So we want to talk a little bit today about collaboration within the Maritime Museum collective as we've got. I was saying on the intro, I don't actually know what the collective noun is for a group of Maritime Museum leaders, a wave?Hannah Prowse: A desperation?Paul Marden: Let's start with we've talked previously. I know on your episode with Kelly, you talked about collaboration here in the dockyard, but I think it's really important to talk a little bit about how Mary Rose, Portsmouth Historic Dockyard and the National Museum of the Royal Navy all work together. So talk a little bit for listeners that don't know about the collaboration that you've all got going. Dominic Jones:  We've got a wonderful thing going on, and obviously Hannah and Andrew will jump in. But we've got this great site, which is Portsmouth Historic Dockyard. We've got Portsmouth Historic Quarter that sort of curates, runs, owns the site, and I'll let Hannah come into that. We've got the Mary Rose, which is my favourite, amazing museum, and then we've got all of the museums and ships to the National Museum of the Royal Navy. But do you want to go first, Hannah, and talk about sort of what is Portsmouth Historic Quarter and the dockyard to you? Hannah Prowse:  Yeah, so at Portsmouth Historic Quarter, we are the landlords of the site, and ultimately have custody of this and pretty hard over on the other side of the water. And it's our job to curate the space, make sure it's accessible to all and make it the most spectacular destination that it can be. Where this point of debate interest and opportunity is around the destination versus attraction debate. So o

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. Show references:  Anna Preedy, Director M+H Showhttps://show.museumsandheritage.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/annapreedy/Jon Horsfield, CRO at Centegra, a Cinchio Solutions Partnerhttps://cinchio.com/uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-horsfield-957b3a4/Dom Jones, CEO, Mary Rose Trust https://maryrose.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominicejones/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/dominic-jonesPaul Woolf, Trustee at Mary Rose Trusthttps://maryrose.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-woolf/Stephen Spencer, Ambience Director, Stephen Spencer + Associateshttps://www.stephenspencerassociates.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/customerexperiencespecialist/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/stephen-spencerSarah Bagg, Founder, ReWork Consultinghttps://reworkconsulting.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahbagg/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/sarah-baggJeremy Mitchell, Chair of Petersfield Museum and Art Galleryhttps://www.petersfieldmuseum.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-mitchell-frsa-4529b95/Rachel Kuhn, Associate Director, BOP Consultinghttps://www.bop.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/kuhnrachel/  Transcriptions:Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. You join me today, out and about yet again. This time I am in London at Olympia for the Museums and Heritage Show. Hotly anticipated event in everybody's diary. We all look forward to it. Two days of talks and exhibitions and workshops. Just a whole lot of networking and fun. And of course, we've got the M and H awards as well. So in this episode, I am going to be joined by a number of different people from across the sector, museum and cultural institution professionals, we've got some consultants, we've got some suppliers to the industry, all pretty much giving us their take on what they've seen, what they're doing and what their thoughts are for the year ahead. So, without further ado, let's meet our first guest. Andy Povey: Hi, Anna. Welcome to Skip the Queue. Thank you for giving us some of your time on what must be a massively busy day for you. I wonder if you could just tell the audience who you are, what you do, a little bit about what museums and heritage is, because not everyone listening to the podcast comes from the museum sector. Anna Preedy: Andy, thanks. This is a great opportunity and always really lovely to see your happy smiley face at the Museums and Heritage Show. So M and H, as we're often referred to as, stands for Museums and Heritage and we're a small business that organises the principal trade exhibition for the Museums and Heritage sector that could be broadened, I suppose, into the cultural sector. We also have the awards ceremony for the sector and an online magazine. So we are Museums and Heritage, but we're often referred to as M and H and we've been around for a very long time, 30 plus years. Andy Povey: Oh, my word. Anna Preedy: I know. Andy Povey: And what's your role within the organisation? Your badge says Event Director today. That's one of many hats. Anna Preedy: I'm sure it is one of many hats because we're a very small team. So I own and manage the events, if you like. M and H is my baby. I've been doing it for a very long time. I feel like I'm truly immersed in the world of museums and heritage and would like to think that as a result of that, I kind of understand and appreciate some of the issues and then bring everyone together to actually get in the same room and to talk them through at the show. So, yeah, that's what we're about, really. Andy Povey: In a shorthand and obviously the show. We're in the middle of West London. It's a beautifully sunny day here at Olympia. The show is the culmination, I suppose of 12 months of work. So what actually goes in? What does a normal day look like for you on any month other than May? Anna Preedy: Yeah, it was funny actually. Sometimes people, I think, well, what do you do for the rest of the year? You just turn up to London for a couple of days, just turn up delivering an event like this. And also our award scheme is literally three, six, five days of the year job. So the moment we leave Olympia in London, we're already planning the next event. So it really is all encompassing. So I get involved in a lot. As I say, we're a small team, so I'm the person that tends to do most of the programming for the show. So we have 70 free talks. Everything at the show is free to attend, is free to visit. So we have an extensive programme of talks. We have about 170 exhibitors. Anna Preedy: So I'm, although I have a sales team for that, I'm managing them and looking after that and working with some of those exhibitors and then I'm very much involved in our awards. So the Museums and Heritage Awards look to celebrate and reward the very best in our sector and shine the spotlight on that not just in the UK but around the world. So we have a judging panel and I coordinate that. So pretty much every decision, I mean you look at the colour of the carpet, that which incidentally is bright pink, you look at the colour of the carpet here, who made the decision what colour it would be in the aisles this year it was me. So I, you know, I do get heavily involved in all the nitty gritty as well as the biggest strategic decisions. Andy Povey: Fantastic. Here on the show floor today it is really busy, there are an awful lot of people there. So this is all testament to everything that you've done to make this the success that it is. I'm sure that every exhibitor is going to walk away with maybe not a full order book, but definitely a fistful of business cards. Anna Preedy: I think that's it, what we really want. And we sort of build this event as the big catch up and we do that for a reason. And that is really to kind of give two days of the year people put those in their diary. It's a space where people can come together. So you know, there'll be people here standing on stands who obviously and understandably want to promote their product or service and are looking to generate new business. And then our visitors are looking for those services and enjoying the talks and everyone comes together and it's an opportunity to learn and network and connect and to do business in the broadest possible sense. Really. Andy Povey: No, I think that the line, the big catch up really sums the show up for me. I've been. I think I worked out on the way in this morning. It's the 15th time I've been to the show. It's one of my favourite in the year because it is a fantastic mix of the curatorial, the commercial, everything that goes into running a successful museum or heritage venue. Anna Preedy: I mean, it's funny when people ask me to summarise. I mean, for a start, it's quite difficult. You know, really, it should be museums, galleries, heritage, visitor, attractions, culture. You know, it is a very diverse sector and if you think about everything that goes into making a museum or a gallery or a historic house function, operate, engage, it's as diverse as the organisational types are themselves and we try and bring all of that together. So, you know, whether you are the person that's responsible for generating income in your organisation, and perhaps that might be retail or it might be catering, it could be any. Any stream of income generation, there's going to be content for you here just as much as there's going to be content for you here. Anna Preedy: If you are head of exhibitions or if you are perhaps wearing the marketing hat and actually your job is, you know, communications or audience development, we try and represent the sector in its broadest scope. So there is something for everyone, quite. Andy Povey: Literally, and that's apparent just from looking on the show floor. So with all of your experience in the museum sector, and I suppose you get to see. See quite an awful lot of new stuff, new products. So what are you anticipating happening in the next sort of 6 to 12 months in our sector? Anna Preedy: I mean, that's a big question because, you know, going back to what were just saying, and the kind of different verticals, if you like, that sit within the sector, but I think the obvious one probably has to be AI, and the influence of that. I'm not saying that's going to change everything overnight. It won't, but it's. You can see the ripples already and you can see that reflected out here on the exhibition floor with exhibitors, and you can also see it in our programme. So this sort of AI is only, you know, one aspect of, you know, the bigger, wider digital story. But I just think it's probably more about the sector evolving than it is about, you know, grand sweeping changes in any one direction. Anna Preedy: But the other thing to say, of course, is that as funding gets more the sort of the economic landscape, you know, is tough. Undeniably so. So generating revenue and finding new ways to do that and prioritising it within your organisation, but not at the expense of everything else that's done. And it should never be at the expense of everything else that's done. And it's perfectly possible to do both. Nobody's suggesting that it's easy, nothing's easy but, you know, it's possible. Anna Preedy: And I think the show here, and also what we do online in terms of, you know, news and features, all of that, and what other organisations are doing in this sector, of course, and the partners we work with, but I think just helping kind of bridge that gap really, and to pro

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 21st May 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: Museum Wales website: https://museum.wales/Big Pit National Coal Museum: https://museum.wales/bigpit/Catherine Pinkerton LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-pinkerton-b1905a110/Catherine Pinkerton is the Group Retail Manager at Amgueddfa Cymru - Museum Wales.Having worked in senior management positions for some of the high street’s most recognisable brands such as Harrods, Selfridges, Dior and Guerlain to name but a few, Catherine spent 20+ years in London building her management career. Catherine is now the Group Retail Manager for Amgueddfa Cymru (Museum Wales). She is responsible for the management of all aspects of retail operations and development, across the national museums of Wales. Catherine is currently leading on a transformation project to create immersive retail experiences in each of the museum shops, reflecting the visitor experience and collections of each of the varied museums.Guests Also Featured in This Episode:Anya Kirkby, Freelancer - Anya Kirkby Ltd – Product Development and Graphic Design anyakirkby@gmail.comArantxa Garcia, Freelancer - Exibeo VM Creative Studio – Shop Design and Visual Merchandising Arantxa@exhibeovm.co.ukNia Elias, Director Relationships and Funding, Amgueddfa Cymru nia.elias@museumwales.ac.ukGuy Veale, Freelancer – Freelancer - Sound artist/designer - gbveale@gmail.comAmy Samways, Shop Supervisor, Amgueddfa Cymru - amy.samways@museumwales.ac.ukKate Eden, Chair, Amgueddfa Cymru - Members of Board | Museum Wales Transcriptions: Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue. I'm your host, Paul Marden. So today you join me on the top of a mountain in Blaenavon in Wales at Big Pit, the National Mining Museum. I'm here today for a really special event. I've been invited to the opening of Big Pit's new Museum Retail experience, which is a programme of work that's being done by the Museums Wales Group to improve the sense of place and the sense of feeling for what could be a blueprint for the rest of the group. We're going to be joined by a number of different people that have taken part in the project and without further ado, let's get started on our tour of Big Pit. Catherine Pinkerton: Morning, everybody. Hello, welcome. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome you all today and I know there's been a lot of you'd have travelled far and wide, so thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you coming to see the amazing store that we've created and I hope you love it. We're just going to cut the river now. Paul Marden: First up I've got Catherine Pinkerton, Group Head of Retail at Museum Wales. Catherine, welcome to Skip the Queue. Catherine Pinkerton: Thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. Paul Marden: Absolute pleasure. And this is a corker of an episode. I think everybody is going to be really interested in finding out about the retail, the gift shop experience that you guys have introduced at Big Pit and then you're going to go wider into. Into Museums Wales. This is a really weird episode because you and I are recording the morning after the day before. So yesterday was the big launch event and I was with you at Big Pit and I've met lots and lots of people and we're going to cut to them throughout the episode and hear from those people that were taking part in the project. But you and I have got the benefit of having enjoyed yester today's event and we can look back on what that experience was like and talk a little bit about the project. Paul Marden: Before we do that, I think it would be really lovely for you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about Museums Wales and Big Pit specifically. Catherine Pinkerton: Absolutely. Okay. So I'm Catherine Pinkerton. So I head up all of the retail stores within Amgueddfa Cymru, which is National Museums of Wales. I've been with the museum just under three years and I'm good that Cymru hosts seven sites. It's an incredible establishment to be part of and I think, you know, coming from a very commercial background, this is very different for me, but I think it's given me lots of insights into bringing kind of. Lots of. Kind of different skill sets, I guess, to this cultural sector. I think when I first initially joined Amgueddfa Cymru, there were lots of challenges. And that's not to say that we still have those challenges as they are in many of our museums. And I think coming from a retail background, it's. It's looking at something that's not. That's commercial, Paul.Catherine Pinkerton: That's key. But actually, how can we make it very collection and story based on our amazing assets that we hold within our museums? And I think that I felt was probably the biggest thing that was missing because I thought we've got these amazing exhibitions, these amazing collections, amazing, you know, opportunities, and how are we putting that into the retail structure and how do we offer that to us, you know, to our visitors? And I think. I think sometimes it may be. Have forgotten that you go around these amazing spaces and it's very based on that visitor focus and how can we make that visitor feel very happy and engaged. But actually the end part of that process is nearly always coming through, exiting through the retail space. Right. Catherine Pinkerton: And if they've had this amazing opportunity to go and, you know, a lot of investment in these amazing spaces, and then they come through that retail space which has some elements, but not all of what our collections hold, there's a confusion there. You know, that end piece. And for me, customer service and visitor experience is absolutely key to how they. How they finish and how they end their day. And if they're ending their day with something, oh, okay, I'll just have a magnet then. Because there's nothing really else here. Yeah, that pains me. That really hurts me. I think, come on, guys, we can do better than this. We are in an element of. We have our own assets, our own elements to be able to kind of display that. Catherine Pinkerton:  And I think very much it would be very easy and to take the kind of easy road of having, you know, let's. Let's pop a dragon on a mug and yeah, we're a Welsh museum. No, we're not. We have assets here. We have beautiful exhibitions, we have beautiful spaces. And actually looking from further afield into. In terms of an emotional connection. And I think, you know, for me, from all of my past kind of previous work, I'm working with Amgueddfa Cymru. It's probably been the most challenging to get perhaps senior management to understand a crazy way of Catherine Pinkerton working into a. What's emotional retail? What does emotive selling mean? This lady is crazy. What's she talking about? But actually, it's really basic, isn't it? Catherine Pinkerton: Because for me, if I take my daughter or my husband to any kind of day trip, I want to take something emotional that I've connected with home with me, and that's so simple. But actually, sometimes it's not thought about in that way. And, you know, for me, I'm all about the emotional connection. And I think we put so much investment in curatorial teams to kind of give that to our visitors. We need to end that. That end part is so important for them to finish, you know, that journey with that emotional connection that they can take home as a souvenir. So, yeah, I've probably said more than I needed to there, Paul, but.Paul Marden: Absolutely. So I think you're capturing the need to curate the. The ending experience because, you know, the nature of. The nature of people's memory is they remember the beginning and they remember the end and the bit that is in the middle is hugely important to the storytelling experience they have whilst they're at the attraction. But if you don't end on a high, then their emotional connection to you and the space and the stories they've heard is not going to be as impactful for them. Catherine Pinkerton:  Absolutely, totally agree. I think it's really key, and not just in the kind of, you know, the cultural sector, but in any sector, really. I think it's really important that connection is instant, really, because that is what you need to. That's the hook, isn't it, of getting that person, you know, and. And actually understanding what the visitor needs. I mean, it's very easy for me to say on a personal level, I'd love to have this collection of products within the shop, but actually, that's not what data tells us. That's not what our demographic tells know, you know. And they are the ones that are important. Our local communities, our demographic is key for us to be successful. Paul Marden: You know, so one of the things that I took from yesterday was the importance that you were moving away from being just any other generic Welsh gift shop to being a gift shop associated with the place. Yeah, that. That's the. That was the nub of I think, what you were trying to get to how do you go about doing that? How did you make it feel so much like a gift shop? About Big Pit? Catherine Pinkerton: It's taken a process of really pulling everything back and getting under the skin, what is the detail and the personality of the site. But actually it's talking to people and being humour. And Paul, you know, I think, very much, as I say, it'd be very ignorant for me to say this is what I think will w

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 7th May 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: Dynamic Earth website: https://dynamicearth.org.uk/Dynamic Earth X: https://x.com/ourdynamicearthDynamic Earth LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/our-dynamic-earth-dynamic-earth-enterprises-ltd-dynamic-earth-charitable-trust-/Mark Bishop joined Dynamic Earth in the summer of 2022. The Edinburgh Science Centre & Planetarium provides science engagement to over 250,000 people a year at the centre and across Scotland. Prior to joining Dynamic Earth, Mark was a director at the National Trust for Scotland for seven years. In the 23 years Mark has been in the voluntary sector, he has also held senior roles at Prostate Cancer UK, Leonard Cheshire Disability and The Royal British Legion. His commercial sector experience includes roles at HarperCollins, Sky, and he co-founded two Internet start-ups. He continues to be a Trustee of Dads Rock, which is a charity dedicated to supporting men to be great parents. Transcriptions: Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor Attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. The Millennium Commission was set up by the UK Government to celebrate the turn of the millennium. Funded by the National Lottery, not only did it fund the Millennium Dome, now the O2, it also funded many regional venues, including a number of science centres such as Dynamic Earth in Edinburgh, which was the first major millennium attraction in Edinburgh. In this episode, I'm talking to Mark Bishop, the CEO of Dynamic Earth, about those millennium babies and what the next 25 years looks for them. After a career in charity fundraising, Mark moved to the attraction sector in 2015 at the National Trust for Scotland, before becoming CEO of Dynamic Earth nearly three years ago. Now let's get into the interview. Paul Marden: Mark, welcome to Skip the Queue. Mark Bishop: Hi. Morning. How are you? Paul Marden: I'm very good. I'm very good on a very sunny morning here down in Hampshire at the moment. I don't know what the Easter holidays are like up there for you at the moment, Mark. Mark Bishop: Well, people always talk about the weather being different in Scotland, so here in Edinburgh, we had the most amazing first week of spring last week, and that made me sad because indoor visitor attractions often benefit from when it's cloudy or rainy. So I am delighted to say the second half of Easter is terrible outside, but amazing inside our building. Paul Marden: Oh, good. So, visitor numbers are good for you this Easter holiday, are they? Mark Bishop: Well, we had probably the best number of people in since COVID Yesterday. We had 1302 people in. Paul Marden: Wowsers.Mark Bishop: That's great, because to have families and groups in celebrating science in our building during their holiday time makes me happy. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, went. I've been doing day trips with my daughter just recently over the Easter break and you can definitely feel there's lots of people out and about and enjoying themselves over these Easter holidays. So good to hear that it's been kind to you as well. Longtime listeners will know that we always start our interviews with an icebreaker question that you cannot prepare for. So I think I've been kind to you. I've got a couple for you here. This is an A or B question. If you're going out for a night out, is it going to be a concert or is it going to be a museum nighttime exhibition? Mark Bishop: I think I'm supposed to, on behalf of the sector, go for the latter, but I am going to answer it in an authentic way and say A, a concert. So before I had kids, I'd probably go to about 150 concerts a year. Really, in the days when NME existed and it had a print edition and I'd pretty much just buy it, flick it and go, that looks interesting. And go without ever even hearing things because Spotify didn't exist and he goes to stuff and it was terrible or brilliant, but I loved it just from the variety and the surprise factor. Obviously, these days we kind of plan our music events a bit better. We know the artists and in theory we make better choices. But perhaps we don't do such good random things as well. Who knows? Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, now this one's a little bit more in depth. If there is a skill that you could master immediately, what would it be? Mark Bishop: Trying to understand how my three kids think and how I need to respond to that. But I don't think I'm the only parent on the planet that loves seeing the variety of ways they behave. But just question, how on earth did they come to be and think like that? Paul Marden: Yeah, it sounds like almost a kind of being able to speak child and become an interpreter, a child whisperer. Mark Bishop: And I think we, you know, sort of kind of be a bit more profound about these things. As an Earth Science Centre, that predominantly kind of has family audience, actually, some of the best questions we get are from younger people. So sometimes minds are probably more open and liberated. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's a nice segue, isn't it? So why don't you tell us a little bit about the Dynamic Earth? What stories does the Dynamic Earth try to tell? Mark Bishop: So Dynamic Earth, for those who don't know it, is the Edinburgh Science Centre and Planetarium. And as I'm sure we'll talk about, we were the first out of the millennium babies to launch back on 2nd July 1999. Our building predates being a science centre. It used to be a Scottish and Newcastle brewery. So when people say, I can't organise the proverbial in a brewery, I go, possibly released half row. And in the mid-1990s, they stopped making beer and handed the land over to public benefit. And it's become the UK's leading Earth science centre. So we're very much a science centre, but we're a science centre with a very specific theme around our planet and our universe and the experiences are very deliberately immersive. Mark Bishop: So we allow people to experience in a safe way what it feels like to be in an earthquake, to see a volcanic eruption, to touch a real iceberg, to dive to the bottom of the ocean and then fly out to the outer reaches of space. And we do all of that because we think our planet is beautiful and fascinating and the wonders of the world need to be celebrated. But increasingly, we also want to showcase the perils we're placing on our planet, our only home. We have about a quarter million people come through our doors a year, and that would be families, that'd be tour groups. There'll be a lot of school groups coming in, 30,000 kind of school groups coming in, and then we have about 400 conferences and events a year. Mark Bishop: So we have everything from Arctic conferences, water resilient conferences, and electric aeroplane conferences. You name it, we have it in our building. And I think a lot of the conferences have keynote speakers that tend to be first ministers or senior politicians, because unless somebody can tell me otherwise, I think we are the closest science centre in the world to a seat of government, because the Scottish parliament is 10 yards across the road. Paul Marden: Excellent. So you have the year of government as well? Mark Bishop: We like to think so. Paul Marden: So I've not been to Dynamic Earth yet, and I need to solve that problem. Yeah. But I'm getting a picture in my mind of telling the story around the geology of the planet, and there's going to be lots of physics around. The planetary stuff that you talk about when you take that big zoom out. Are there other elements of the science, the different sciences, that you bring into this storytelling? Is there elements of biology and botany and things like that you bring into this? Mark Bishop: Yeah, absolutely. So, for example, one of the galleries I didn't mention to you is a rainforest gallery. So you go into a tropical rainforest, regardless of what the weather is like outside in Edinburgh and Scotland, you come into a tropical rainforest, but the sounds and smells and sensations of that rainforest immerse you. And we do that because, you know, probably very few people will travel in their lifetime to a tropical rainforest. And there's lots of environmental reasons why you probably wouldn't encourage people to do that. But to be immersed in that space and to feel what it's like to be in a rainforest allows you to understand that it's humans' relationship with the world around them, and that we're not the only beings on this planet. And so hopefully we try and humble people by realising there are other habitats and species than ourselves. Paul Marden: Excellent. So today's episode, what we want to do, we've got a series of episodes that we want to do around the Millennium Project. I've got particular interest in this because my first job whilst I was still at uni was at the National Botanic Gardens of Wales, which was a millennium project. So I was there whilst they were digging. I can vividly remember it being a building site, and this dome where they built the gardens, sort of lifted out of the earth. So I felt, I can remember being there and feeling like this was something important, we were building something for the long term. It was an exciting opportunity. And we're at this kind of big anniversary, aren't we, this year, 25 years since many of

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 19th March 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: https://www.ajah.ae/https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-griffiths-63432763/Kelly's final episodeThe transformation of Painshill Park, with Paul Griffiths, Director of PainshillWhat it really takes to launch a podcast. With Kelly Molson and Paul GriffithsPaul Griffiths has worked in the Heritage, Museums and Tourism world now for nearly 30 years.After spending 16 years working in various role for English Heritage, in 2012 he moved to the Mary Rose Museum as Head of Operations to oversee the opening and operations of the multi award winning museum, welcoming over one million visitors before in 2018 taking on moving to the Painshill Park Trust in the role of Director of Painshill. Paul spent 6 years there before his move in December 2024 to Ras Al Khaimah one of the seven Emirates that make up the UAE. In this exciting brand new role Paul is Chief Executive Officer of the Al Hamra Heritage Village, part of the Al Qasimi Foundation. Transcriptions: Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with Visitor Attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden.Longtime listeners will remember my guest today, Paul Griffiths, when he was CEO at Painshill Park, from when he was interviewed back in season one by Kelly. In today's episode, Paul comes back to talk about his new role as CEO of Al Jazeera Al Hamrah Heritage Village in Ras Al Khaimah in the UAE. Now, I'm always interested in the first 90 days of people's experience in a job, so we'll be talking more about that and his for the future. Paul Marden: Paul, welcome back to Skip the Queue. Paul Griffiths: Hello. Thanks for having me, Paul. Great to be here. Paul Marden:  Long time. Listeners will know that we always start with an icebreaker question and our guests don't get to know that one in advance. I think this one's a pretty kind one. I was pretty mean to Paul Sapwell from Hampshire Cultural Trust a couple of weeks ago because I asked him whether it was Pompey or Saints and for political reasons, he felt that he had to abstain from that.Paul Griffiths: Testing his interest. I'd have gone Pompey at the time because that's where we live. Well, did live. Paul Marden: Oh, there you go. There you go. So you've moved over from Portsmouth. You're now in the UAE. Tell listeners, what is that one? Home comfort that after three months away from Blighty, you're missing? Is it proper English marmalade? Paul Griffiths: Do you know what? I've been able to get hold of most things, but I've not been able to get. I know people who cook properly, so I should be able to do this myself, but I haven't. Cauliflower cheese, one thing I'm missing from home, that doesn't sell it anywhere in a sort of pre pack or frozen form. I can even get hold of Yorkshire puddings in Spinny's supermarket, but I can't get hold of cauliflower cheese. Paul Marden: Can you get cauliflowers? Paul Griffiths: Can get cauliflowers. I'm sure I can make cheese sauce if I knew what it was doing. But you normally. I'm so used to normally buying a pack of cheese, cauliflower cheese to have in my Sunday roast. Paul Marden: Okay. So if I ever get to come out, I need to bring out a plastic wrapped, properly sealed so that it doesn't leak on the plane. Cauliflower cheese? Paul Griffiths: Yes, please. Yeah, absolutely. Paul Marden: So your last episode was actually. Or your last full episode was back in season one, episode 22. So five years ago and the world has changed a lot in five years, but most recently it's changed a lot for you, hasn't it? So why don't you tell listeners a little bit about what's happened to you since you were with us in season one? Paul Griffiths: Wow. Yeah, well, season one seems an age away, doesn't it, now with all the wonderful guests youu've had since on Skip the Queue, it's been a different program completely. But, yeah, no, well, back then I was at Painshill, were coming out of a pandemic and I remember, you know, Kelly and I were chatting over all the different avenues that everyone had gone and what we've done at Painshill and that continued brilliantly. And however, my life has taken a change in. In sense of where I am, but I'm still doing the same sort of work, so. Which is, you know, when our industry, and it's such a fabulous industry, it's great to stay in it. Paul Griffiths: So I am now over in the United Army Emirates in the Emirate of Ras Alhaima, which is the third biggest of the seven emirates that make up the UAE, behind Abu Dhabi and, of course, Dubai. So I was approached, God, nearly always, this time last year, about a call over here. Yes. My recruitment company got in touch and went through, you know, had a good look at the job description and thought, well, actually, we'll throw my hat into the ring. And applied, went for a series of online interviews with the recruitment company, then an online interview with the people over here at various departments within the Al Kassimme Foundation and the Department of Museums and Antiquities. Paul Griffiths: So, yeah, looking at this brand new job, which I'm now lucky enough to be in, I then was flown out in August for a round of interviews, met all the team. You know, one of those things that you later discover, the whole real four days was one big interview, although there was. There was a central one. But of course, everyone you were meeting along the way was being asked to feedback, And I love chatting to people and enjoying people's company. So actually went for dinners and lunches and all sorts, which was just a lovely four days and almost felt like a free hit in many ways, Paul. Well, this is going to be a brilliant experience. Paul Griffiths: If I don't get the job, I'm going to have a great four days in Rasta Taima, seeing it, meeting everyone, enjoying the time here. And, you know, the more time I spent here, the more time with the team, the more time, you know, going and visiting sites. I just became more and more that this would be an amazing job. Obviously gave my absolute everything, did loads of research, gave everything in the interview. The interview took a rather unusual turn. After the sort of hour and a half of questions and my questions, I was asked to leave the room for a short period. Not unusual in that sense because I was, you know, I wasn't just going to leave and go because obviously I was in their hands for four days. Paul Griffiths: But the doctor, Natasha Ridge, the executive director of the foundation, came out the interview and said, “Right, that's all gone really well. We're really pleased. We're now off to the palace for you to meet His Highness Sheikh Saud, who is the ruler of Ras Al Khaimah and on the Supreme Council of the UAE.” So I was sort of, I went to one of the small meeting rooms you. Now I know that. Now I know where I was, where I went. But at that point I had no idea. One of the lovely. There's a very much a service thing here. Paul Griffiths: So, you know, we have in the Heritage Village as well later we have a wonderful member of our team, Geraldine, who does lots of cooking, prepares stuff and just had a wonderful fish taco lunch because we're four hours ahead of you, of course, here in Alaihi. So, yeah, so one of the guys came in with, gave me an English breakfast tea and sort of, you know, sat there reviewing what, thinking what on earth was I going to be asked by His Highness. And then was put into one of the drivers and we drove up through Rat Sahma City, through into the palace, up the long driveway and there I was sort of eventually, after about 20 minutes, presented with. Presented to Sheikh Sword who asked me, chatted, asked various questions. Paul Griffiths: I don't think there could be many interviews that you end up with His Highness in the second half of it. You know, it's sometimes a presentation. Yeah. So that was. I was there for about half an hour and that's your time over and off he goes. And off I went back to then go and have dinner with some of the team. So it was a very surreal afternoon. Paul Marden: Being interviewed by royalty. But when you're not expecting that as part of the interview process, that must be quite unnerving. Paul Griffiths: I had a heads up that at some point in my trip I might meet him, but there was no formal arrangements. I had me had to get in a diary. So it hadn't even crossed my mind that's what was about to happen. When I was asked to leave the meeting room, I just thought maybe they wanted to come back with more questions or, you know, say I hadn't gone well, whatever. But, yeah, no, that was the. I took that as a good sign. I thought, well, actually, if I'm being whisked up there, the interview must have gone relatively well because I'm sure they would present me to shake sword if it hadn't gone so well. Paul Marden: Yeah. You'd hope that he would be towards the end of the cycle of the interview round. Paul Griffiths: Yeah. Paul Marden: Not doing the early sifting of CVs. Paul Griffiths: No. He certainly had seen who I was because he asked me some questions about where I'd worked and. Okay, things like that. So he'd obviously seen a CV. He's a very. I mean, I've met him subsequently a few times. I've been fortunate to be a dinner hosted by him a couple of weeks ago. But he is a very, very intelligent man. Works really hard. I mean, work. He,

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 13th March 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: Website: https://www.crowdconvert.co.uk/ Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/crowd-convert/Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/crowdconvert.co.ukCrowd Convert has been created to provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world class digital interactions that extend their incredibly moving physical experiences into the digital world. Very simply Crowd Convert is here to Rehmanise Commerce http://kellymolson.co.uk/Kelly Molson - The Lifestyle Agency AdvisorSupporting overwhelmed solo founders who crave long-term sustainable growth, through monthly advisory. Define your niche. Generate leads. Build your pipeline. Founding Rubber Cheese, a lifestyle web development agency in 2003, she grew the agency profitably for over 20 years transforming our success in 2019 by establishing it as the leading web design agency in the visitor attraction sector. She sold the business in 2024, and now support founders building specialist lifestyle agencies to find their own path – agency growth on their terms.• Gain clarity on direction, mission and positioning to win the right clients• Become confident in increasing prices and saying no to ‘stuff’ that sucks time and energy• Feel the excitement of building strategic partnerships that deliver your dream clientsBuild an agency on your terms, choosing profitability over pressure, putting life before work.  Transcription: Kelly Molson: Well, look who is back. They've let me loose with the microphone again. I might never leave. Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. Kelly Molson: Can I just say that you pretty much called me a queen just before we began recording this, and I think I wear that crown appropriately today. Andy Povey: Podcast royalty. Kelly Molson: She is back where she belongs in her rightful place on her throne with her microphone. Wow. Thank you. You two have been cooking up something interesting, and I am back here to tease it out of you both today. But because I am in charge again, I get to do things my way, which means Icebreakers are back on the cards. Yay. Kelly Molson: I'm so happy to be back here doing this. Right? Paul Marden: I've never done one of these. This is so. In all of the time. I know. Andy Povey: So I've got something over you now, Paul. Kelly Molson: I can't believe this. Even when we did the sessions that were us two, the episodes that were us two. Paul Marden: You didn't ask me icebreakers. I am dodged that bullet for two and a half years. Kelly Molson:  That's outrageous. Okay, well, then we'll start with you. I would like to know who's your favourite podcast host? Why is it me? Paul Marden: Wow. Kelly Molson:  No. Genuine question. Genuine question. Okay, so, I mean, obviously it is me. We could put that aside. Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. So put a pin in that one. Kelly Molson: Put a pin in that. So listen there, I have seen in the last. Well, since we started Skip the Queue back in 2019. Goodness, July 2019, there's been lots of different sector podcasts that have kind of popped up, and they are brilliant. And I'm all for more and more niche podcasts. They are the best kind of podcast. But I want to know, aside from Skip the Queue, what is your second favourite sector podcast? Paul Marden: Oh, oh. Attraction Pros is the one for me. I do like listening to the guys at AttractionPros. Kelly Molson: They are good. They were around before Skip the Queue. So they're like. For me, they're the ones that we are looking up to in terms of the podcast. Paul Marden: We were. Kelly Molson: Oh, oh, Podcast Beef. Josh is gonna hear this. He's not going to be happy. Andy, same question to you. What other podcasts you listen to sector wise? Andy Povey: So, I mean, that's a really difficult question because. Well, it's not. The answer's none. I don't listen to sector podcasts very much. I become a politics junkie, or I've been a politics junkie for years. Kelly Molson: Okay.Andy Povey: So my podcasts are just full of politics podcast, which in the past two weeks I've stopped listening to. I've turned off completely because the world of politics is just such a mess.Kelly Molson: It's a car crash.Andy Povey: Within two minutes of having been published. Kelly Molson: What would be normally your go to, like, the regular one that you would listen to? Andy Povey: Me being a reluctant remainer. It's all the stuff that hangs over from that. So there's. Oh, God, what now? Quiet riot. The two. Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart. I can't remember what that one's called right now. Paul Marden: The rest is politics. Kelly Molson: Rest is politics. Yeah, cool. Paul Marden: What about the one with Ed Balls and George Osborne? Andy Povey: I tried it and haven't really got into it. Paul Marden: Yeah. So I'm the opposite way around. So that's the one I like. And I don't like Rest is politics. And I turned out that actually George Osborne is a human being and I quite like the guy. I'd go for a drink with him. Who knew? Kelly Molson: This is no news. Paul Marden: Yeah. Kelly Molson: I wonder if he'd like to go for a drink with you. Paul Marden: Probably no.Andy Povey: I'm sure he'll be delighted to hear that when he listens to this. Paul Marden: When these politicians, when they give up their day job and they return to normal life and then you hear them on programmes, they're actually quite relatable and you think, why could you not capture that relatability when you were actually doing the job? Andy Povey: Well, it's actually a key part of the job, isn't it? It's the only thing you need to be good at as a politician. Kelly Molson: You would think, “Oh, could I could make a good politician then?” I'm just generally nice to people. Andy Povey: Absolutely. What would be your policies, Kelly? What would you do? What would you bring in? Kelly Molson: Oh, new policies. Oh, well, that's a very good question. I have one about mobile phones and people walking and looking at them at the same time, which I would ban because I generally just want to kick people. Kelly Molson: You know when you, like on the tube and you've got to get somewhere and you've just got people walking up the stairs in front of you, like, whilst looking at their phone, like, I want to swipe their legs away. So something around that they would be useful. It would make me happy anyway. Andy Povey: Absolutely. Kelly Molson: Make some other people happy, too. Who knows? Good. Okay. Glad that went there. Second question. This is a good one. It's coming up to. Well, I mean, it's already started, isn't it? Conference season has kicked in well and truly. You're at NFAN. That's really the start of it. I am going to be at the Association for Cultural Enterprise Conference in March. So looking forward to seeing everybody. I'm going to be at the awards do as well. I've been judging the awards. Paul Marden: Have you really? Kelly Molson: Yes, there was a lot in my category, I'm not going to lie. That took a lot longer than I was expecting it, but it was really fun. And the short list of finalists is out now if you haven't seen it. And it's an amazing list. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing who the winners are. But I would like to know what is the worst food you've ever been served at a conference? Because let's face it, can be a bit dodge, can't it? Andy Povey: So this sticks in my mind. It was an awful experience. We were at Port Sunlight up in. Actually not that far from Liverpool where the ACE conference is going to be in March. And it was pretty close, pretty soon after lockdown and it was almost like the caterers just looked in the freezer to see what they've got left over and no other conference had been there and then just put it all out at the same time. And it was all beige and it was just such mixture. Kelly Molson: Hang on a minute, hang on a minute. Let's not dis beige food because I'm not gonna let. I am a bit of a fan of beige food. So if you. If there was a conference that basically the lunch was made up of like kids party food, that would be the best conference I'd ever been to. Like sausage rames. Andy Povey: As long as you can have half a grapefruit covered in tin foil with cocktail sticks with cheese and pineapple stuff in it. Kelly Molson: No pineapple, I'm allergic, that would kill me. Paul Marden: But cheese tinned pineapple, it's got to be. Kelly Molson: Oh, tin pineapple is actually okay. Weirdly, that wouldn't kill me. So yeah, I would be down. I know, it's weird, I know. It's just fresh pineapple. Who knew?Kelly Molson: So little classed. Paul Marden:  Still loves the sausage roll and a scotch egg. Andy Povey: That's fine. Sausage rolls and scotch eggs, absolutely no problem. It's when you mix them with onion barges and samosas and Chinese spring rolls and. Paul Marden: Sounds like every Boxing Day lunch I've ever been to. Kelly Molson: I'm not going to lie, it actually sounds like my dream conference. Paul, over to you. Paul Marden: Conferences that serve you food that you cannot eat with one hand. Andy Povey: Yes. Paul Marden: Yeah. So pasta with a sloppy sauce. Why would you do that to me? I mean, I am not the best eater. I need a bib at most times, but if I'm out in public, I don't want garlic bread, I don't want saucy food. I want stuff