Chats with Kent C. Dodds

Dillon's path runs from internal insurance tools to Vercel Domains to Cloudflare's agent and dashboard work-always with the same through-line: care about the user, get real feedback, and invest in primitives so delighters don't collapse under bad foundations. This episode covers metrics and paging as a product habit, learning from customer escalations, scoping small when AI speeds up coding, and building cross-functional relationships (support, sales, finance) as part of engineering judgment. You'll hear practical parallels with episodes on delighters and onboarding tension, plus why reviewing agent-written code still matters for system intuition when things break at 2 a.m. Homework Try hard and care a lot; more practically, focus on foundations and primitives. Put good feedback systems in place so you know what's going on with your product and where it doesn't feel good-alerting and metrics, customer journey signals, or customer interviews. If you have a customer support team, sit with them and watch them triage cases for your product; get to know support-they're sitting on a gold mine of product signal-and empathize with them like you do with users. Kent's shorthand for the mindset Dillon agreed with: make pain painful-if your users are hurting, you should feel it too. Resources Cloudflare - Developers Cloudflare Agents Dillon Mulroy - site Dillon Mulroy - GitHub Guest: Dillon Mulroy Company: Cloudflare GitHub: @dmmulroy X: @dillon_mulroy Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com X: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds Youtube: Kent C. Dodds Video Watch this episode on YouTube

Wayne blends delivery and product leadership—his stories range from a flagship-adjacent launch that nobody used to the everyday discipline of listening to customers without waiting two weeks for a meeting. This episode connects feedback-loop thinking (familiar from CI) to product discovery, yes-and conversations when someone is married to a feature idea, and the difference between hygiene features, performance features, and delighters when teams ship faster than users can absorb. You'll also hear grounded takes on when "move fast" breaks trust, how AI may reshape search-and-listing UIs, and a concrete reading list: The Mom Test and Crossing the Chasm. Homework Talk to people, ask good questions, and listen—Wayne says that's the biggest hack that's worked in his career. Read The Mom Test: ask how people solved this problem in the past instead of whether they like your idea or would use it—you get far more useful insight (Wayne ties this to caring about the problem, not your solution). Resources The Mom Test (Rob Fitzpatrick) Crossing the Chasm (Geoffrey Moore) Thoughtworks Wayne Allan — LinkedIn Guest: Wayne Allan Company: Thoughtworks 𝕏: @xWayfinder Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds Youtube: Kent C. Dodds Video Watch this episode on YouTube

Dax has spent years building tools developers actually use; on OpenCode he's thinking hard about product process while the space moves at breakneck speed. This episode is a practical look at product deterioration (not just code rot), bottom-up adoption for dev tools, and how coding agents change who decides what gets built—without replacing the need for taste, restraint, and clarity about what problem you're solving. You'll hear concrete examples from OpenCode's terminal UI and onboarding, parallels to Kent's Epic Workshop app, and a grounded take on inference pricing, hype, and when "ship messy and fix later" does and doesn't hold up. Homework Convince yourself that getting good at product really matters—Dax says there's a lot in the culture that tries to tell you it doesn't, and you need that commitment because the belief will be challenged. If you don't already believe it, figure out how to make yourself believe it matters (Kent's recap of the guest's action). Resources OpenCode OpenCode docs Dax Raad (site) Kent C. Dodds — blog Guest: Dax Raad Company: OpenCode GitHub: @thdxr X: @thdxr Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com X: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds Youtube: Kent C. Dodds Video Watch this episode on YouTube

Software keeps changing, and a lot of the spotlight is on AI—but the shift Kent cares about is bigger than models and agents. Implementation is increasingly delegated to tools that will keep improving; quality, review, and craft still matter, but the gap that won’t go away is product: understanding users, clarifying problems, and shipping what actually helps. This season is a deliberate tour of product engineering: conversations with people who blend product judgment with technical depth—including PMs and engineers who’ve crossed that line. The goal is the same as it’s always been for Kent’s teaching: give you durable skills. Right now, that means leveling up how you think about product, not just how you type code. Homework Write down one product decision you influenced (or wish you had) in the last month—what would you validate earlier next time? Pick an app you use weekly: what problem is it really solving for you, and where does it feel like the team lost the plot? Subscribe or follow Chats with Kent so you don’t miss the guest episodes in season 7. Resources Chats with Kent on kentcdodds.com Video Watch this on YouTube

Kent says goodbye at the end of another season of the "Chats with Kent" podcast, which featured interviews with speakers for the upcoming Epic Web Comp 2025 conference in Salt Lake City. The host, Kent C. Dodds, expresses excitement about the lineup of speakers and encourages listeners to attend the conference in March 2025. He also mentions that the talks will be available on the EpicWeb.dev platform for those who miss the live event. Meet at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

Kent C. Dodds sits down with Jason Lengstorf to discuss his talk at Epic Web Conf, Of Things Epic, where he dives into the principles behind effective decision-making in web development. Rather than focusing on which tools to pick, Kent emphasizes the need for a framework that enables developers to make confident decisions that scale. He draws from his experience with the Epic Stack, highlighting the importance of clear reasoning behind technical choices. Key topics in this conversation include: Why decision paralysis is unnecessary in modern web development. How the Epic Programming Principles provide a solid foundation for making smart tech choices. Why Laravel's opinionated approach has been so successful and what we can learn from it. The importance of structuring your projects so they can evolve without unnecessary rewrites. How in-person conferences create opportunities for career growth and deeper relationships. Kent also shares his excitement about the hallway track at Epic Web Conf, encouraging attendees to come talk to him about real-world experiences with the Epic Stack, scaling web apps, and even personal interests like family life, one-wheeling, and snowboarding. Watch this episode. Meet Kent at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev Host: Jason Lengstorf Website: CodeTV.dev 𝕏: @jlengstorf GitHub: @jlengstorf YouTube: CodeTV

Andre Landgraf joins Kent to discuss his talk at Epic Web Conf, Epic Image Optimization. In this conversation, they explore the challenges and trade-offs of optimizing images for the web, particularly when handling large numbers of event photos or user-generated content. Andre shares how building his own image optimization pipeline gave him a deeper understanding of the process, allowing him to make more informed decisions when choosing external services. Kent and Andre also discuss: The evolution of All Things Web, a meetup Andre organizes in the Bay Area. The importance of community in web development and how in-person meetups have shaped his career. His experience working with Ember at LinkedIn and his upcoming career shift. Why diving deep into a problem—like image optimization—makes you a better engineer. How Epic Web Conf has become a must-attend event for those passionate about web technologies. Andre brings a wealth of experience and enthusiasm to the conversation, making this episode a must-listen for anyone looking to level up their approach to image handling in modern web applications. Watch this episode. Meet Andre at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Andre Landgraf Website: andrelandgraf.dev 𝕏: @andrelandgraf94 GitHub: @andrelandgraf Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

In this conversation, Jason Lengstorf, creator of CodeTV and the Web Dev Challenge, joins Kent to discuss: His background in engineering, developer relations, and open-source at companies like IBM, Gatsby, and Netlify. The Web Dev Challenge, a fast-paced, team-based competition that brings developers together to solve unique coding challenges in just four hours. The free Epic Web Conf hackathon happening the day before the conference, where attendees can join the challenge, build something cool, and showcase their work. His philosophy on career growth, taking calculated risks, and building a career you truly enjoy. Why in-person conferences are critical for networking and how making friends, rather than “networking,” can be the key to long-term success. Jason shares why he prioritizes being in physical spaces with other developers, how meaningful relationships have shaped his career, and why he believes success comes from showing up, trying hard, and having the courage to take chances. Watch this episode. Meet Jason at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Jason Lengstorf 𝕏: @jlengstorf GitHub: @jlengstorf BlueSky: jason.energy Website: codetv.dev Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

In this conversation, Ryan Florence, co-creator of Remix and React Router, joins Kent to talk about the evolving landscape of web development. He shares insights on: The motivation behind moving core Remix features into React Router. The rising importance of AI-driven development and how it affects frameworks. Betting on the web platform as a long-term strategy for performance, portability, and future-proofing applications. How Remix is being reimagined with a focus on web-native capabilities. The role of conferences in building meaningful career relationships. Ryan also shares his personal reflections on balancing career, family, and the desire to step back from the spotlight. Whether you're a Remix user, a React developer, or just curious about where the web is heading, this discussion offers a fascinating look at the future of frameworks and the web. Watch this episode. Meet Ryan at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Ryan Florence 𝕏: @ryanflorence GitHub: @ryanflorence Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

Annie Sexton joins Kent to talk about her upcoming talk at Epic Web Conf, JavaScript: The Origin Story. In this discussion, she shares her love for history and why documenting the evolution of programming languages is so important. They dive into: The rushed creation of JavaScript and how it shaped the language. Competing languages of the era and how JavaScript won out. The unexpected ways JavaScript evolved into a web powerhouse. Why software history often gets overlooked and why it matters today. How understanding the past helps developers write better code for the future. Annie’s talk will be a must-watch for developers who want to gain a deeper appreciation of JavaScript and its unique journey. Expect to walk away with a richer perspective on the language that powers the modern web. Watch this episode. Meet Annie at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Annie Sexton 𝕏: @anniebabannie Website: anniesexton.com Bluesky: anniesexton.com Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

Zackary Jackson joins Kent to discuss his upcoming talk at Epic Web Conf, Epic Federation: Scaling Web Infrastructure. As an expert in large-scale web architecture, Zack has helped build critical tools like Module Federation and RSPack, both of which power ByteDance’s global infrastructure. In this conversation, Kent and Zack cover: The challenges of managing thousands of developers and repos across multiple teams. Why ByteDance chose to build its own bundler in Rust instead of adopting an existing solution. The impact of slow build times on product velocity and how tooling improvements significantly reduce development friction. The role of Module Federation in solving organizational scale problems, allowing teams to ship independently. How AI-powered tools are shaping the next generation of developer workflows. Zack also shares his thoughts on why meeting open-source maintainers and industry leaders in person can unlock collaboration opportunities that aren’t as easily accessible online. Watch this episode. Meet Zackary at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Zackary Jackson 𝕏: @ScriptedAlchemy GitHub: @ScriptedAlchemy Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

Aaron Francis joins Kent to discuss his talk at Epic Web Conf, Epic Bets: Practical Tips for Betting on Yourself. In this conversation, Aaron reflects on his non-traditional path into tech, his experience being laid off, and how he prepared himself to be resilient in the face of career uncertainty. He shares insights on why developers should focus on skill stacking, personal branding, and long-term sustainability in their careers rather than chasing trends. Kent and Aaron also explore: How to future-proof your career without falling into the trap of chasing hype. Why writing and sharing your knowledge can open unexpected doors. The importance of building a professional network before you need it. How to balance ambition with family life and personal values. Why giving your absolute best—both professionally and personally—is always worth it. Aaron’s perspective is both practical and inspiring, offering a roadmap for developers who want to take control of their future without sacrificing what truly matters. Watch this episode. Meet Aaron at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Aaron Francis 𝕏: @aarondfrancis GitHub: @aarondfrancis Website: aaronfrancis.com Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

Fran Zekan, an engineer from Croatia with experience in hardware, robotics, and web development, joins Kent to discuss his talk, Shipping Reusable Full-Stack Components. Fran explains how React Server Components (RSCs) allow developers to build truly self-contained, reusable full-stack features—something that has long been a staple in the Rails ecosystem with Rails Engines. In this conversation, Fran and Kent discuss: How RSCs simplify full-stack development by eliminating the need for multiple setup steps. Comparisons between RSCs and Rails Engines, and how they bring backend-like encapsulation to React. Real-world examples, including a Stripe Checkout component that can be dropped into any app. The evolution of scaling strategies across different web frameworks, from serverless to Astro’s CDN-first approach. The future of modular, scalable web apps and the potential for Rails-to-React migration. Fran also shares why he prioritizes in-person conferences, the value of deep technical discussions, and why he believes the Epic Web Conf community is a perfect space for these conversations. Watch this episode. Meet Fran at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Fran Zekan 𝕏: @Zeko369 GitHub: @Zeko369 Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

Josh Cirre, a developer advocate and content creator, joins Kent to discuss his talk at Epic Web Conf: "Learning-Driven Development." Josh shares his philosophy on learning by doing—where the best way to master new technologies is by applying them to real-world projects rather than passively consuming tutorials. Josh and Kent discuss: The importance of curiosity in learning and how small observations can spark deeper exploration. Why focusing on what you want to build rather than what you want to learn leads to better retention. The challenges of transitioning from acting and comedy to tech, and how performance skills translate into developer advocacy. The power of in-person conferences in forging deeper relationships and improving professional growth. Josh also shares his love for Svelte, cameras, music, and Broadway musicals—so be sure to find him at Epic Web Conf to geek out on any of those topics! Watch this episode. Meet Josh at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Josh Cirre 𝕏: @joshcirre YouTube: Josh Cirre Website: joshcirre.com Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

In this episode, Kent is joined by Kira Corbett, an AI-focused developer educator with deep experience in robotics, simulation, and human-computer interaction. Kira discusses her background in building real-world systems and how her transition to web development has shaped her approach to optimizing user experiences. Her talk at Epic WebConf, "Building an AI Assistant to Deliver Your Best Presentations," explores how AI can enhance communication skills, streamline productivity, and create better engagement in various fields—not just software engineering. Without spoiling too much, Kira hints at an interactive experience that will challenge the audience’s expectations about AI-powered tools. They also discuss the benefits of conferences, from gaining fresh insights to making meaningful professional and personal connections. As an avid mountain biker and skier, Kira is also excited to hit the slopes at the unofficial Epic WebConf ski day. Watch this episode. Meet Kira at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Kira Corbett 𝕏: @TheRealKiraAI Website: kiracorbett.com GitHub: @TheRealKiraAI Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

Taylor Desseyn, VP of Global Development at Torque.dev and host of the Guidance Counselor 2.0 podcast, joins Kent to discuss his role as an emcee at Epic WebConf and the importance of networking in tech. Taylor shares insights on how developers can maximize their time at conferences, from preparing in advance to actively building meaningful connections. Taylor emphasizes the value of in-person events, explaining how they provide an opportunity to deepen online relationships, connect with industry leaders, and open doors to new career opportunities. He also shares practical career advice, including how to effectively network, follow up after events, and leverage platforms like LinkedIn to build professional relationships. Kent and Taylor also discuss the role of an emcee in setting the tone for a conference, the importance of humor and energy in engaging an audience, and Taylor’s excitement to bring his hosting experience to Salt Lake City for Epic WebConf. Watch this episode. Meet Taylor at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Taylor Desseyn LinkedIn: Taylor Desseyn 𝕏: @tdesseyn Bluesky: @tdesseyn Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

Mark Techson, a developer advocate at Google working on Angular, joins Kent to discuss the intersection of AI and developer productivity. His Epic WebConf talk, "Beyond Code Assist: Driving Impact as a Next-Gen Developer," explores how developers can go beyond using AI for simple code assistance and instead integrate AI into their workflows to accomplish more. Mark emphasizes that the world of software development is evolving, and AI tools are becoming integral to the way we work. He shares insights on how developers can position themselves to thrive, avoid stagnation, and embrace the opportunities AI provides. Kent and Mark also discuss the importance of standing out in an increasingly automated world, the power of adding a personal touch (like Mark’s unique video talk proposal), and why in-person conferences like Epic WebConf provide irreplaceable professional connections. Watch this episode. Meet Mark at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Mark Techson 𝕏: @marktechson YouTube: Mark Techson Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

Shruti Kapoor, a frontend engineer at Slack and an Epic Web instructor, joins Kent to dive into the intricacies of accessibility in web development. With over a decade of experience, Shruti has dedicated herself to educating developers on building accessible and inclusive applications. Her Epic WebConf talk, "Building Accessible Web Apps," will focus on real-world accessibility challenges, showcasing a live demo where she transforms a web app to improve usability for all users. She emphasizes how accessibility is more than just ARIA labels—it requires a thoughtful UX approach, including proper focus management, screen reader behavior, and inclusive interaction patterns. Kent and Shruti also discuss her experience traveling globally for conferences, how different regions approach web development, and why she prioritizes in-person events like Epic WebConf. They wrap up by exploring imposter syndrome, mentorship, and how developers can take their first steps into public speaking. Watch this episode. Meet Shruti at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Shruti Kapoor 𝕏: @shrutikapoor08 YouTube: Shruti Kapoor Website: shrutikapoor.dev Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

Eva Ferreira, a frontend engineer, educator, and design systems expert, shares insights into what makes or breaks a design system. As a tech lead at Mable and a long-time web development instructor, Eva brings years of experience building UI components, optimizing accessibility, and implementing robust frontend architectures. Her talk at Epic WebConf, "Bulletproof Design Systems," dives into the biggest challenges teams face when adopting a design system. She covers topics like onboarding new users, proving the system’s value with measurable success metrics, and avoiding the trap of a single maintainer. Attendees will leave with actionable strategies to make their design systems more sustainable and widely adopted. Kent and Eva also discuss the importance of sharing failures as well as successes in tech, the struggle of maintaining focus while learning online, and why in-person conferences provide an unmatched experience for both education and networking. Watch this episode. Meet Eva at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Eva Ferreira 𝕏: @evaferreira92 LinkedIn: Maria Evangelina Ferreira Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev

Eve Porcello, an experienced educator and speaker, shares her insights on AI-powered presentation tools and communication skills for developers. With years of experience teaching JavaScript, React, and GraphQL, Eve now focuses on how AI can assist in learning, teaching, and public speaking. Her Epic WebConf talk, co-presented with Kira Corbett, explores the development of an AI assistant to enhance presentation delivery. They’ll showcase AI-powered tools like ml5 for voice recognition and interactive elements that can make presentations more engaging and accessible. Kent and Eve also discuss the evolving role of AI in web development, the importance of strong communication skills for engineers, and why in-person conferences provide an unmatched experience. Plus, they talk about skiing in Utah and the unofficial ski day after Epic WebConf! Watch this episode. Meet Eve at Epic Web Conf. Guest: Eve Porcello 𝕏: @eveporcello Website: moonhighway.com GitHub: @eveporcello Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com 𝕏: @kentcdodds GitHub: @kentcdodds YouTube: Kent C. Dodds Epic Web: epicweb.dev