The Arise Podcast

Mary Lovell is a queer grassroots organizer, visual artist, and activist who has been fighting oil and gas infrastructure and for social justice for their adult life - living up in the Kitsap Penninsula they are working on their first book  and love working with people to build power in their communitiesWelcome to the Arise podcast. This is episode 12, conversations on Reality. And today we're touching on organizing and what does it mean to organize? How do we organize? And we talk to a seasoned organizer, Mary Lavelle. And so Mary is a queer, grassroots organizer, visual artist and activist who has been fighting oil and gas infrastructure and fighting for social justice in their adult life. Living in the Kitsap Peninsula. They're working on their first book and love working with people to build power in their communities. Join us. I hope you stay curious and we continue the dialogue.Danielle (00:02):Okay, Mary, it's so great to have you today. Just want to hear a little bit about who you are, where you come from, how did you land? I know I met you in Kitsap County. Are you originally from here? Yeah. Just take itMary (00:15):Away. Yeah. So my name is Mary Lovel. I use she or they pronouns and I live in Washington State in Kitsap County. And then I have been organizing, I met Danielle through organizing, but I've spent most of my life organizing against oil and gas pipelines. I grew up in Washington state and then I moved up to Canada where there was a major oil pipeline crossing through where I was living. And so that got me engaged in social justice movements. That's the Transmountain pipeline, which it was eventually built, but we delayed it by a decade through a ton of different organizing, combination of lawsuits and direct action and all sorts of different tactics. And so I got to try and learn a lot of different things through that. And then now I'm living in Washington state and do a lot of different social justice bits and bobs of organizing, but mostly I'm focused on stopping. There's a major gas build out in Texas and Louisiana, and so I've been working with communities down there on pressuring financiers behind those oil and gas pipelines and major gas export. But all that to say, it's also like everyone is getting attacked on all sides. So I see it as a very intersectional fight of so many communities are being impacted by ice and the rise of the police state becoming even more prolific and surveillance becoming more prolific and all the things. So I see it as one little niche in a much larger fight. Yeah,Yeah, totally. I think when I moved up to Canada, I was just finished high school, was moving up for college, had been going to some of the anti-war marches that were happening at the time, but was very much along for the ride, was like, oh, I'll go to big stuff. But it was more like if there was a student walkout or someone else was organizing people. And then when I moved up to Canada, I just saw the history of the nation state there in a totally different way. I started learning about colonialism and understanding that the land that I had moved to was unseated Tu Squamish and Musqueam land, and started learning also about how resource extraction and indigenous rights went hand in hand. I think in general, in the Pacific Northwest and Coast Salish territories, the presence of indigenous communities is really a lot more visible than other parts of North America because of the timelines of colonization.(03:29):But basically when I moved and had a fresh set of eyes, I was seeing the major marginalization of indigenous communities in Canada and the way that racism was showing up against indigenous communities there and just the racial demographics are really different in Canada. And so then I was just seeing the impacts of that in just a new way, and it was just frankly really startling. It's the sheer number of people that are forced to be houseless and the disproportionate impacts on especially indigenous communities in Canada, where in the US it's just different demographics of folks that are facing houselessness. And it made me realize that the racial context is so different place to place. But anyways, so all that to say is that I started learning about the combination there was the rise of the idle, no more movement was happening. And so people were doing a lot of really large marches and public demonstrations and hunger strikes and all these different things around it, indigenous rights in Canada and in bc there was a major pipeline that people were fighting too.(04:48):And that was the first time that I understood that my general concerns about climate and air and water were one in the same with racial justice. And I think that that really motivated me, but I also think I started learning about it from an academic standpoint and then I was like, this is incredibly dumb. It's like all these people are just writing about this. Why is not anyone doing anything about it? I was going to Simon Fraser University and there was all these people writing whole entire books, and I was like, that's amazing that there's this writing and study and knowledge, but also people are prioritizing this academic lens when it's so disconnected from people's lived realities. I was just like, what the fuck is going on? So then I got involved in organizing and there was already a really robust organizing community that I plugged into there, but I just helped with a lot of different art stuff or a lot of different mass mobilizations and trainings and stuff like that. But yeah, then I just stuck with it. I kept learning so many cool things and meeting so many interesting people that, yeah, it's just inspiring.Jenny (06:14):No, that's okay. I obviously feel free to get into as much or as little of your own personal story as you want to, but I was thinking we talk a lot about reality on here, and I'm hearing that there was introduction to your reality based on your education and your experience. And for me, I grew up in a very evangelical world where the rapture was going to happen anytime and I wasn't supposed to be concerned with ecological things because this world was going to end and a new one was going to come. And I'm just curious, and you can speak again as broadly or specifically if the things you were learning were a reality shift for you or if it just felt like it was more in alignment with how you'd experienced being in a body on a planet already.Mary (07:08):Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting question. I think. So I grew up between Renton and Issaquah, which is not, it was rural when I was growing up. Now it's become suburban sprawl, but I spent almost all of my summers just playing outside and very hermit ish in a very kind of farm valley vibe. But then I would go into the city for cool punk art shows or whatever. When you're a teenager and you're like, this is the hippest thing ever. I would be like, wow, Seattle. And so when I moved up to Vancouver, it was a very big culture shock for me because of it just being an urban environment too, even though I think I was seeing a lot of the racial impacts and all of the, but also a lot of just that class division that's visible in a different way in an urban environment because you just have more folks living on the streets rather than living in precarious places, more dispersed the way that you see in rural environments.(08:21):And so I think that that was a real physical shift for me where it was walking around and seeing the realities people were living in and the environment that I was living in. It's like many, many different people were living in trailers or buses or a lot of different, it wasn't like a wealthy suburban environment, it was a more just sprawling farm environment. But I do think that that moving in my body from being so much of my time outside and so much of my time in really all of the stimulation coming from the natural world to then going to an urban environment and seeing that the crowding of people and pushing people into these weird living situations I felt like was a big wake up call for me. But yeah, I mean my parents are sort of a mixed bag. I feel like my mom is very lefty, she is very spiritual, and so I was exposed to a lot of different face growing up.(09:33):She is been deep in studying Buddhism for most of her life, but then also was raised Catholic. So it was one of those things where my parents were like, you have to go to Catholic school because that's how you get morals, even though both of them rejected Catholicism in different ways and had a lot of different forms of abuse through those systems, but then they're like, you have to do this because we had to do it anyways. So all that to say is that I feel like I got exposed to a lot of different religious forms of thought and spirituality, but I didn't really take that too far into organizing world. But I wasn't really forced into a box the same way. It wasn't like I was fighting against the idea of rapture or something like that. I was more, I think my mom especially is very open-minded about religion.(10:30):And then my dad, I had a really hard time with me getting involved in activism because he just sees it as really high risk talk to me for after I did a blockade for a couple months or different things like that. Over the course of our relationship, he's now understands why I'm doing what I'm doing. He's learned a lot about climate and I think the way that this social movements can create change, he's been able to see that because of learning through the news and being more curious about it over time. But definitely that was more of the dynamic is a lot of you shouldn't do that because you should keep yourself safe and that won't create change. It's a lot of the, anyways,I imagine too getting involved, even how Jenny named, oh, I came from this space, and Mary, you came from this space. I came from a different space as well, just thinking. So you meet all these differe

Guest Bio: Renee Kylestewa Begay is from the Pueblo of Zuni in Southwest New Mexico. She is a mother to three daughters and married to high school sweetheart Donnie Begay. During her undergrad, she founded the Nations movement—a national ministry...Good morning. It's October 30th, 2025. Can you believe it? So I'm releasing these videos. Today's videos on resilience. Four distinct cultures coming at you. Jenny McGrath. Me, Danielle, my friend Renee Begay from New Mexico and Rebecca Wheeler, Walston. Tune in, listen to the distinctly different places we're coming from and how we're each thinking about resilience. And then find a way that that impacts you and your own community and you can create more resilience, more generosity, more connection to one another. It's what we need in this moment. Oh, and this is The Arise Podcast, and it's online. If you want to download, listen to it. There you can as well.   Renee Begay (00:14):Okay, cool. Okay, so for those watching my introduction, I'll do it in my language. So my name is Renee Bega. I just spoke in my language, which is I'm from the Pueblo of Zuni tribe in Southwest New Mexico, and I shared the way that we relate to one another. So you share the clan system that you're from. So being a matrilineal society, we belong to our, there's lineage and then we are a child of our father's side of the family. And so I belong to the Sandhill Crane clan as my mom is my grandma. And then my daughters are Sandhill Crane, and then I'm a child of the Eagle Clan, which is my dad's side. So if I do introduce myself in Zuni and I say these clans, then people know, oh, okay, you're from this family, or I'm, or if I meet others that are probably Child of Crane, then I know that I have responsibility toward them. We figure out responsibility toward each other in the community and stuff, who's related to all those things. Yeah. And here in New Mexico, there are 19 Pueblo tribes, two to three Apache tribes, and then one Navajo nation tribe. So there's a large population of indigenous tribes here in New Mexico. So grateful and glad to be here.(02:22):Yeah. I guess I can answer your question about what comes to mind with just the word resilience, but even you saying a d Los Muertos, for me that was like, oh, that's self-determination, something that you practice to keep it going, to remember all those things. And then when you mentioned the family, Jenny, I was like, I think I did watch it and I looked on my phone to go look for it, and I was like, oh yeah, I remember watching that. I have a really short-term memory with books or things that I watch. I don't remember exactly details, but I know how I felt. And I know when I was watching that show, I was just like, whoa, this is crazy.(03:12):So yes, I remember watching that docuseries. And then I think Rebecca, when you're talking about, I was thinking through resilience feels like this vacillation between different levels, levels of the individual in relation to the community, how much do we participate in self discovery, self-determination, all those things, but then also connect it to community. How do we continue to do that as a community to stay resilient or keep practicing what we've been taught? But then also generationally too, I think that every generation has to figure out based on their experience in this modern world, what to do with the information and the knowledge that is given to us, and then how to kind of encourage the next generation too. So I was just thinking of all those scenes when I was listening to you guys.Rebecca (04:25):Yeah, when you said the generational thing that each generation has to decide what to do with the information given to them. This past weekend in the last week or so was that second New Kings march, and there's some conversation about the fact that it was overwhelmingly white and in my community that conversation has been, we weren't there. And what does that mean, right? Or the noticing that typically in this country when there are protests around human rights, typically there's a pretty solid black contingency that's part of that conversation. And so I just have been aware internally the conversation has been, we're not coming to this one. We're tired. And when I say I say black women specifically in some instances, the larger black community, we are tired.(05:28):We are tapping out after what happened in the last election. And I have a lot of ambivalence about that tapping out. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but it does make me think about what you said that in this moment my community is taking the information given to them and making a conscious choice to do something different than what we have done historically. So that's what I thought about when you were mentioning the generational sort of space that's there. What do we do with that and what does that mean about what we pass to the next generation?Danielle (06:09):Through this moment. So I think it's interesting to say, I think Rebecca said something about does your resilience, what does it feel grounded in or does it feel solid? I can't remember exactly how she put it. And yeah, she's frozen a bit on my screen, so I'll check in with her when she gets back. And I would say I felt like this week when I was thinking about my ancestors, I felt in having conversations in my family of origin around race and assimilation, just that there was this in-between generation. And I mean like you mentioned the voting, you saw it in our voting block, the Latino voting block pretty clearly represented.(07:09):There was this hard push for assimilation, really hard push and the in-between. And I feel like my generation is saying that didn't work. And so we know the stories of our ancestors, but how did we interpret those stories to mean many of us, I would say in our community to mean that we don't fight for justice? How did we reinterpret those stories to mean the best course was silence or forgetting why people migrated. The reason for migration was not because there was a hate for our land. That's very clear to me. The reason for migration was what we see now happening with Venezuela. It was ongoing oppression of our people through the, well, in my case, through the Mexican government and collaboration with the United States government that exacerbated poverty and hunger, which then led to migration. So do we forget that? It seems like we did. And in some, I wondered to myself, well, how did a guy like Cesar Chavez or I, how did they not forget that? How did they remember that? So I think resilience for me is thinking Los was like, who were my ancestors remembering why they moved and remembering what this moment is asking me to do. Is it asking me to move somewhere and maybe physically move or mentally move or I don't know what the movement means, but it's some kind of movement. So that's kind of what I thinkRenee (09:07):I'm seeing the importance of, even just in this conversation, kind of the idea of the trans narrative across all communities, the importance of storytelling amongst each other, sharing stories with each other of these things. Like even just hearing you Danielle of origins of reasons for migration or things like that, I'm sure very relatable. And we have migration stories too, even within indigenous on this continent and everything. So I think even just the importance of storytelling amongst each other to be able to remember together what these things are. I think even just when we had the opportunity to go to Montgomery and go to the Rosa Parks Museum, it, you hear the macro story of what happened, but when you actually walk through the museum and read every exhibition, every paragraph, you start learning the micro stuff of the story there. Maybe it wasn't everyone was a hundred percent, there was still this wrestling within the community of what to do, how to do it, trying to figure out the best way to do good amongst each other, to do right by each other and stuff like that. So I just think about the importance of that too. I think Danielle, when you mentioned resilience, a lot of times it doesn't feel good to practice resilience.(11:06):For me, there's a lot of confusion. What do I do? How do I do this? Well, a lot of consultation with my elders, and then every elder has a different, well, we did this, and then you go to the next elder, oh, well we did this. And so one of my friends said three people in the room and you get four ideas and all these things. So it's just like a lot of times it doesn't feel good, but then the practice of it, of just like, okay, how do we live in a good way with each other, with ourselves, with what faith you have, the spiritual beliefs that you hold all those, and with the land, all that stuff, it's just, yeah, it's difficult to practice resilience.Rebecca (12:03):I think that that's a good point. This idea, the reminder that it doesn't always feel good. When you said it, it's like, well, duh. But then you sit for a minute and you go like, holy crap, it doesn't feel good. And so that means I have to be mindful of the ways in which I want to step away from it, take a step back from it, and not actually enter that resilience. And it makes me think about, in order to kind of be resilient, there has to be this moment of lament or grief for the fact that something has happened, some type of wounding or injury or threat or danger that is forcing you to be resilient is requiring that of you. And that's a moment I always want to bypass. Who has time to, no, I don't have time to grieve. I got stuff I got to do, right?(13:06):I need to make it to the next moment. I need to finish my task. I need to keep it together. Whatever the things are. There are a thousand reasons for which I don't want to have that moment, even if I can't have it in the moment, but I need to circle back to it. Once the chaos sort of settles a little bit, it's very difficult to actually step into that space, at least for me personal

BIO: Sandra Van OpstalEXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND CO-FOUNDER OF CHASING JUSTICESandra Maria Van Opstal, a second-generation Latina, is Co-Founder and Executive Director of Chasing Justice, a movement led by people of color to mobilize a lifestyle of faith and justice . She is an international speaker, author, and activist, recognized for her courageous work in pursuing justice and disrupting oppressive systems within the church. As a global prophetic voice and an active community member on the west-side of Chicago, Sandra’s initiatives in holistic justice equip communities around the world to practice biblical solidarity and mutuality within various social and cultural locations.https://chasingjustice.com/sandra-van-opstal/ Giving in Chicago: https://newlifecenters.org/ Ordg to follow in chicagohttps://www.icirr.org/ Tshirt https://secure.qgiv.com/for/peoplearenotillegalt-shirt/Danielle (00:09):good afternoon, y'all. I have a second video coming to you from my dear friend and colleague in Chicago, Humboldt Park area, a faith leader there that collaborates with the different faith communities in the area. And she's going to talk about some ways she's personally affected by what's happening by the invasion there and how you can think about things, how you might get involved. I hope you'll join me in this conversation and honor yourself. Stay curious, honor, humanity, get involved. Take collective action. Talk to your own neighbor. Let's start caring really well for one another.Oh wow. Sandra, you know me. This is Jenny McGrath. This is my colleague. She's a bible nut. She wrote out the Bible How many times?Like scripture nut and a researcher, a therapist and purity culture, kind of like Survivor, but did a lot of work with women around that. And we talk a lot about race and current events. And I restarted my podcast and I asked Jenny if she'd want to join me. She has a great love for justice and humans and making a difference. So that's kind of how Jenny joined up with me. Right. Anything else you want to say?Sandra, I saw your post on social media and I was like, I could do that. I could contribute to that. And so that's what I'm here to do. Want to hear about your experience. What does resilience look like for you all over there? What do you need from us? How can we be a part of what's happening in Chicago from wherever we are? And if there's practical needs or things you want to share here, we can also send those out.Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, where you're located in Chicago, and just a little bit even about your family, if you're willing?Sandra (01:40):Yeah, sure. So it's great to be with you guys. I'm Sandra Van Opal and I'm here on the west side of Chicago in a neighborhood called Humble Park. It's if you see in the news with all that's happening, it's the humble Hermosa, Avondale kind of zone of the ice crackdown. Well, let's not call it a crackdown. The ice invasion(02:06):Here in Chicago. I am the daughter of immigrants, so my mom is from Columbia. My father was from Argentina. They came to live in Chicago when they were in their twenties and thirties. They met in English class, so they were taking TOEFL exams, which is an exam you take in order to enter into college and schooling here in the US to show your language proficiency. And so they met learning English and the rest is history. I grew up here. I've lived here my whole life. I'm raising my family here. I'm married. I have two kids that just turned 11, so they're in fifth grade and sixth grade. And the school that they go to is a primarily immigrant school immersion, Spanish immersion. So it's a school where you take classes basically 90% in Spanish when you start and you move every year a little bit more English until you graduate when you're 50 50.(03:03):And so the school context they've been in has been receiving a lot of new neighbors, a lot of new classmates. And for that reason, actually most of their classes are still almost fully in Spanish, so they should probably be 60 40 right now. But I think a lot of their curriculum is still in Spanish, or the children have the option of having the math book in Spanish or English if they want it. If they're supposed to be English Spanish, or sorry, English math this year, then they might choose to have a Spanish book even if the instruction is in English. So that's the context I live in. I am here. I live in a home. I have chickens and a garden, and I love to be outside watching my neighbors and connecting with people. And we have a black club in our community, so a lot of our information that we're sharing with each other is through our email list and our signal group. Yeah. Oh, also what I do, I run an organization called Chasing Justice, which is focused on the intersection of faith and making the world a better place. And I am a local pastor and author on issues of worship and justice. So that's my function in this world.Danielle (04:31):I think we talk about what's happening in one sense, it seems like social media and other ways like Zoom, we're on a screen with Zoom and we're all in three different locations right now. We think of ourselves as really connected. But then when tragedy strikes or trauma or an invasion, for instance, strikes, we're connected, but it seems like we're also disconnected from one another and the practical needs and storytelling on the ground, and what does resilience look like for one person versus another? Or what does survival versus thriving look like for one person versus another? And how do we kind of join together and form a collective bond in that? I've been thinking a lot about that after I read your post Sandra on Instagram and what does that mean for me? And just as I'm talking, what does that mean for you or what are thoughts that come to mind for you?Sandra (05:27):Yeah, I am think I remember what posts you're referring to, but I think part of it is whenever something happens in our world, I believe that because of the highly digitally connected world that we're in, it feels like we are all supposed to say something. That's how we respond. Something happens and we all go, that's not right, which I think is good, we should say that, but I think the frustration, I'm sure people in LA and DC felt that, but it's like something is happening in your real life every day to your neighbors and everybody all around the country is commenting on it and commenting with such confidence and commenting with such expertise, and you're like, wait a minute. That's not how I would say that. And I think the reason that maybe that post came up for me as a kind of, it was less frustration and more sorrow, I think it felt more, more sorrow that the people that are most impacted by the issues are not the ones that are given the voice to talk about how those systems of oppression are impacting them. And I think the reason I think about things like that is I remember when I first started pastoring locally here. I mean, I had been working for a parachurch organization doing national and international work. I really felt like it was time for me to become a local pastor to understand, hey, if I'm going to be writing to pastors and speaking to pastors and challenging pastors, I should probably know what it's like to be one. And so I was supposed to be a five year stint, which ended up being 12 years pastoring locally.(07:08):And in my discussions with my staff team, I would often have one of them very respectfully, I was the executive pastors in a community with hierarchy. So they would very respectfully say, Hey, your friends that are out there blogging and writing articles and books, they're talking about stuff in ways we would never talk about it. They're talking about it in a tone that we would never use to talk about our situation and with words we would never use to describe our situation. And it's not that my friends maybe didn't have a perspective, it's that it didn't reflect their perspective. And so I think I became very sensitive to that, paying attention to, oh, how do expert justice people talk about issues of justice versus the people that are most impacted by those issues of injustice? Or how do people from within a community express their journey in ways that maybe even have a different tone than mostly anger that was coming out from the justice space?(08:10):And they're like, we wouldn't say it that way. We wouldn't talk about it that way. So I think because of that, it's really important when something happens in a local space and it is impacting us all nationally, national news, that we ask the question, how can I hear the voices of the people that this is most impacting? And so that's why I think I wrote that post. I was like, A lot of y'all have a lot to say about Chicago who don't live here and thank you, but no thank you. Invite us to talk for ourselves, invite us to speak for ourselves because there are local pastors and priests and imams and mental health providers who are experiencing this in a very real way that they probably could shed some light on what would be helpful to us. I called a bunch of friends in Los Angeles when things were happening there, and I was like, oh, how are you guys doing?(09:05):What's really happening? How can we help? If you don't have time to reply back, just know that I'm here praying for you, and I'm like with you and I'm sending money to the orgs. I see you posting and don't know what else to do. Obviously, the ice raids are impacting all of us across the country, but they're impacting each city in very different ways. Each city is a very different city with a very different ethos and a way of handling things. And as you guys know, Chicago is the best. I'm so proud of us right now. I'm so proud of us. We're like, no, you can't talk to us like that. No, you can't have our streets. But it also gets us into trouble because it's rooted in our philosophy of community organizing, though the linsky

Vanessa Ogaldez, LAMFTSPECIALTIES:TraumaCouples CommunicationIdentity/Self Acceptancehttps://www.dcctherapy.com/vanessa-ogaldez-lamftFrom Her website: Maybe you have said something like, “What else can I do?” and it is possible you feel stuck or heartbroken because you can’t seem to connect with your partner as you want or used to. Whether or not you’re in a relationship and you have experienced trauma, hurtful arguments, or life changes that have brought on disconnection in your relationships, there is a sense of loss and heartache. You may find yourself in “robot mode” just going through your daily tasks, causing you to eventually disconnect from others, only to continue the cycle of miscommunication and loneliness. Perhaps you feel misunderstood, and you compensate by being helpful to everyone else while you yearn for true intimacy and friendships. Sometimes you feel there are so many experiences that have contributed to your pain and suffering that you don’t know where to start. There are Cultural norms you may feel that not everyone can understand and therapy is not one of those Cultural norms. I believe therapy can be a place of safety, healing, and self-discovery. As a therapist, my focus is to support you and your goals in life and relationships. I am committed to you building deep communications, connections and feeling secure in the ability to share your emotions.Danielle (00:06):Good morning. I just had the privilege and honor of interviewing my colleague, another therapist and mental health counselor in Chicago, Vanessa Les, and she is located right in the midst of Chicago with an eye and a view out of her office towards what's happening with ICE and immigration raids. I want to encourage you to listen into this episode of the Arise Podcast, firsthand witness accounts and what is it actually like to try to engage in a healing process when the trauma may be committed right before someone comes in the office. We know that's a possibility and right after they leave the office, not suggesting that it's right outside the door, but essentially that the world in which we are living is not as hopeful and as Mary as we would like to think, I am sad and deeply disturbed and also very hopeful that we share this power inside of ourselves.(01:10):It's based on nonviolence and care and love for neighbor, and that is why Vanessa and I connected. It's not because we're neighbors in the sense of I live next door to her in Chicago and she lives next door to me in Washington. We're neighbors because as Latinas in this world, we have a sense of great solidarity in this fight for ourselves, for our families, for our clients, to live in a world where there's freedom, expression, liberation, and a movement towards justice and away from systems and oppression that want to literally drag us into the pit of hell. We're here to say no. We're here to stand beside one another in solidarity and do that together. I hope you join us in this conversation and I hope you find your way to jump in and offer your actual physical resources, whether it's money, whether it's walking, whether it's calling a friend, whether it's paying for someone's mental health therapy, whether it's sharing a meal with someone, sharing a coffee with someone. All these things, they're just different kinds of things that we can do, and that's not an exhaustive list.(02:28):I love my neighbor. I even want to talk to the people that don't agree with me, and I believe Vanessa feels the same way. And so this episode means a lot to me. It's very important that we pay attention to what's happening and we ground ourselves in the reality and the experiences of black and brown bodies, and we don't attempt to make them prove over and over and over what we can actually see and investigate with our own eyes. Join in. Hey, welcome Vanessa. I've only met you once in person and we follow each other online, but part of the instigation for the conversation is a conversation about what is reality. So there's so many messages being thrown at us, so many things happening in the world regarding immigration, law enforcement, even mental health fields, and I've just been having conversations with different community members and activists and finding out how do you find yourself in reality what's happening. I just first would love to hear who you are, where you're at, where you're coming from, and then we can go from there.Vanessa (03:41):Okay. Well, my name is Vanessa Valez. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. Before becoming a therapist five years ago through my license, I worked in nonprofit for over 20 years, working with families and community and addressing what is the need and what is the problem and how can we all get together. Been involved with different movements and nonprofit organizations focusing on the community in Humbolt Park and Logan Square in the inner city of Chicago. My parents are longtime activists and they've been instrumental in teaching me how to work in community and be part of community and to be empathetic and thoughtful and caring and feeling like what happens to me happens to us and what happens to us happens to me. So that's kind of the values that I come from and have always felt that were true. I'm a mom of three and my husband and I have been together for 29 years, so since we were teenagers.Thank you. But yeah, so that's a lot of just in general who I am and culturally, I come from an Afro Latina culture. I am a Puerto Rican born here, well born in New York where my family was from and they migrated from Puerto Rico, my grandparents did. And in our culture, we are African, we are indigenous, and my dad is Puerto Rican and Native American. So there's a lot in here that I am a hundred percent all of it. So I think that's the view and experience that I come from is knowing who I am and my ancestors who are very important to me.Danielle (06:04):I mean, that encompasses so much of what I think the battle is over who gets to be American and who doesn't. Right? Yeah, definitely. From your position in your job and you're in Chicago right on the ground, I think a lot of people are wondering what's really happening? What are you seeing? What's true? Can you speak to that a little bit?Vanessa (06:32):Yeah. What's really happening here is, I don't know, it's like what's really happening here? People are really scared. People are really scared. Families that are black and brown, families that are in low income situations, families that have visas, families that have green cards, families that are undocumented, all of us are really scared and concerned, and the reason is because we feel that there is power being taken from us without any kind of accountability. So I see my friends and family saying ICE is in our neighborhood, and I mean a block away from where I live, ICE is in our neighborhood, in our schools. We have to watch out. ICE is in front of our church or ICE is patrolling our neighborhood, and we have to all come together and start throwing whistles and we have to know what it is that we're supposed to do if we get interact, if we interact with ice or any kind of federal agent, which is just in itself disturbing, and we're supposed to just get up in our day and send our kids to school, and we're supposed to go to work and do the things that we're supposed to do.(08:07):So it's traumatic. This is a trauma that we are going through, and I think that it only triggers the traumas that a lot of us, black and brown people and community have been trying to get the world to listen and recognize this isn't new for us. It's just now very aggressive and very violent and going backwards instead of forward.(08:39):I think that's how I would describe what is really happening in Chicago. On the other side, I think there's this other place of, I'm kind of really proud of a lot of our people where I think it is understandable to say, you know what? It's not me or mine, or I got my papers all together, so that's really unfortunate, but it's not something that's happening in front of me. I could understand that there are some of some people who feel that way because it does feel like a survival situation. I think though there are others who are saying, no, what happens to you is happening to me too, I'm going to keep accountable to my power. And there's a lot of allies out there. There are a lot of people who are moving and saying, I'm afraid, but I'm still going to act in my fear.(09:37):And I think that's really brave. So in that way, I feel like there's this movement of bravery and a movement of we've had enough and we're going to reinvent what it is that is our response. It's not this or that. It's not extreme to extreme, but I'm going to do it in the way that I feel is right and that I feel that it's good for me to do and I can be truthful in that. And so today I'm really proud because my kids are going to be protesting and walking out of their school and I'm super, super proud and I was like, send pictures because I'm so proud of them. And so someone could say, is that doing anything? I'm like, hell yeah, doing something. It's doing something. The kids are saying, what power do we have? Not much, but whatever I have, I'm going to put that out there and I'm going to be brave and do it.(10:34):And it's important for us to support them. I feel their school does a really good job of supporting them and guiding them through this and letting us parents know, Hey, talk to your kids about this shadow to Belmont Intrinsic Charter School. But they really are doing something. And I find that in a lot of the schools around Chicago, around the Hermosa, Logan Square, Humbold Park area where I live in Humboldt Park, I find that a lot of the schools are stepping up and saying, we are on the community side of taking care of our kids and what's best for our families. So there's that happening and I want to make sure to give that. We have to see that too.Danielle (11:

BIO:The Reverend Dr. Starlette Thomas is a poet, practical theologian, and itinerant prophet for a coming undivided “kin-dom.” She is the director of The Raceless Gospel Initiative, named for her work and witness and an associate editor at Good Faith Media. Starlette regularly writes on the sociopolitical construct of race and its longstanding membership in the North American church. Her writings have been featured in Sojourners, Red Letter Christians, Free Black Thought, Word & Way, Plough, Baptist News Global and Nurturing Faith Journal among others. She is a frequent guest on podcasts and has her own. The Raceless Gospel podcast takes her listeners to a virtual church service where she and her guests tackle that taboo trinity— race, religion, and politics. Starlette is also an activist who bears witness against police brutality and most recently the cultural erasure of the Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, D.C. It was erected in memory of the 2020 protests that brought the world together through this shared declaration of somebodiness after the gruesome murder of George Perry Floyd, Jr. Her act of resistance caught the attention of the Associated Press. An image of her reclaiming the rubble went viral and in May, she was featured in a CNN article.Starlette has spoken before the World Council of Churches North America and the United Methodist Church’s Council of Bishops on the color- coded caste system of race and its abolition. She has also authored and presented papers to the members of the Baptist World Alliance in Zurich, Switzerland and Nassau, Bahamas to this end. She has cast a vision for the future of religion at the National Museum of African American History and Culture’s “Forward Conference: Religions Envisioning Change.” Her paper was titled “Press Forward: A Raceless Gospel for Ex- Colored People Who Have Lost Faith in White Supremacy.” She has lectured at The Queen’s Foundation in Birmingham, U.K. on a baptismal pedagogy for antiracist theological education, leadership and ministries. Starlette’s research interests have been supported by the Louisville Institute and the Lilly Foundation. Examining the work of the Reverend Dr. Clarence Jordan, whose farm turned “demonstration plot” in Americus, Georgia refused to agree to the social arrangements of segregation because of his Christian convictions, Starlette now takes this dirt to the church. Her thesis is titled, “Afraid of Koinonia: How life on this farm reveals the fear of Christian community.” A full circle moment, she was recently invited to write the introduction to Jordan’s newest collection of writings, The Inconvenient Gospel: A Southern Prophet Tackles War, Wealth, Race and Religion.Starlette is a member of the Christian Community Development Association, the Peace & Justice Studies Association, and the Koinonia Advisory Council. A womanist in ministry, she has served as a pastor as well as a denominational leader. An unrepentant academician and bibliophile, Starlette holds degrees from Buffalo State College, Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School and Wesley Theological Seminary. Last year, she was awarded an honorary doctorate in Sacred Theology for her work and witness as a public theologian from Wayland Baptist Theological Seminary. She is the author of "Take Me to the Water": The Raceless Gospel as Baptismal Pedagogy for a Desegregated Church and a contributing author of the book Faith Forward: A Dialogue on Children, Youth & a New Kind of Christianity.  JennyI was just saying that I've been thinking a lot about the distinction between Christianity and Christian supremacy and Christian nationalism, and I have been researching Christian nationalism for probably about five or six years now. And one of my introductions to the concept of it was a book that's based on a documentary that's based on a book called Constantine Sword. And it talked about how prior to Constantine, Christians had the image of fish and life and fertility, and that is what they lived by. And then Constantine supposedly had this vision of a cross and it said, with this sign, you shall reign. And he married the church and the state. And ever since then, there's been this snowball effect of Christian empire through the Crusades, through manifest destiny, through all of these things that we're seeing play out in the United States now that aren't new. But I think there's something new about how it's playing out right now.Danielle (02:15):I was thinking about the doctrine of discovery and how that was the creation of that legal framework and ideology to justify the seizure of indigenous lands and the subjugation of indigenous peoples. And just how part of that doctrine you have to necessarily make the quote, humans that exist there, you have to make them vacant. Or even though they're a body, you have to see them as internally maybe empty or lacking or less. And that really becomes this frame. Well, a repeated frame.Jenny (03:08):Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And it feels like that's so much source to that when that dehumanization is ordained by God. If God is saying these people who we're not even going to look at as people, we're going to look at as objects, how do we get out of that?Danielle (03:39):I don't know. Well, definitely still in it. You can hear folks like Charlie Kirk talk about it and unabashedly, unashamedly turning point USA talk about doctrine of discovery brings me currently to these fishing boats that have been jetting around Venezuela. And regardless of what they're doing, the idea that you could just kill them regardless of international law, regardless of the United States law, which supposedly we have the right to a process, the right to due process, the right to show up in a court and we're presumed innocent. But this doctrine applies to people manifest destiny, this doctrine of discovery. It applies to others that we don't see as human and therefore can snuff out life. And I think now they're saying on that first boat, I think they've blown up four boats total. And on the first boat, one of the ladies is speaking out, saying they were out fishing and the size of the boat. I think that's where you get into reality. The size of the boat doesn't indicate a large drug seizure anyway. It's outside reality. And again, what do you do if they're smuggling humans? Did you just destroy all that human life? Or maybe they're just fishing. So I guess that doctrine and that destiny, it covers all of these immoral acts, it kind of washes them clean. And I guess that talking about Constantine, it feels like the empire needed a way to do that, to absolve themselves.Danielle (05:40):I know it gives me both comfort and makes me feel depressed when I think about people in 300 ad being, they're freaking throwing people into the lion's den again and people are cheering. And I have to believe that there were humans at that time that saw the barbarism for what it was. And that gives me hope that there have always been a few people in a system of tyranny and oppression that are like, what the heck is going on? And it makes me feel like, ugh. When does that get to be more than just the few people in a society kind of society? Or what does a society need to not need such violence? Because I think it's so baked in now to these white and Christian supremacy, and I don't know, in my mind, I don't think I can separate white supremacy from Christian supremacy because even before White was used as a legal term to own people and be able to vote, the legal term was Christian. And then when enslaved folks started converting to Christianity, they pivoted and said, well, no, not all Christians. It has to be white Christians. And so I think white supremacy was birthed out of a long history of Christian supremacy.Danielle (07:21):Yeah, it's weird. I remember growing up, and maybe you had this experience too, I remember when Schindler's List hit the theaters and you were probably too young, but Schindler's listed the theaters, and I remember sitting in a living room and having to convince my parents of why I wanted to see it. And I think I was 16, I don't remember. I was young and it was rated R and of course that was against our values to see rated R movies. But I really wanted to see this movie. And I talked and talked and talked and got to see this movie if anybody's watched Schindler's List, it's a story of a man who is out to make money, sees this opportunity to get free labor basically as part of the Nazi regime. And so he starts making trades to access free labor, meanwhile, still has women, enjoys a fine life, goes to church, has a pseudo faith, and as time goes along, I'm shortening the story, but he gets this accountant who he discovers he loves because his accountant makes him rich. He makes him rich off the labor. But the accountant is thinking, how do I save more lives and get them into this business with Schindler? Well, eventually they get captured, they get found out. All these things happen, right, that we know. And it becomes clear to Schindler that they're exterminating, they're wiping out an entire population.(09:01):I guess I come to that and just think about, as a young child, I remember watching that thinking, there's no way this would ever happen again because there's film, there's documentation. At the time, there were people alive from the Great war, the greatest generation like my grandfather who fought in World War ii. There were other people, we had the live stories. But now just a decade, 12, 13 years removed, it hasn't actually been that long. And the memory of watching a movie like Schindler's List, the impact of seeing what it costs a soul to take the life of other souls like that, that feels so far removed now. And that's what the malaise of the doctrine of Discovery and manifest destiny, I think have been doing since Constantine and Christianity. They've been able to wipe the memory, the historical memory of the evil done with their blessing.(10:06):And

Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHCI am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias’ and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone:  +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me…     Danielle (00:17):Welcome to the Arise podcast, and as you know, we're continuing on the intersection of where our reality meets and today it's where our reality meets our resilience. And how do we define that? A lovely conversation. It's actually just part one. I'm thinking it's going to be multiple conversations. Jenny McGrath, LMHC, and Rebecca Wheeler, Walston. Join me again, look for their bios in the notes and tag along with us. I thought we could start by talking about what do we see as resilience in this moment and what do we see, maybe like I'm saying a lot now, what do we see as the ideal of that resilience and what is actually accessible to us? Because I think there's these great quotes from philosophers and our ancestors, but we don't know all their day-to-day life. What did it look like day to day? So I'm wondering, just kind of posing that for you all, what do you think about resilience? How does it intersect with this moment and how do we kind of ground ourselves in reality?Rebecca (01:33):Rebecca? Coffee helps. Coffee definitely helps. It does. I have coffee here.(01:42):Me too. I would probably try to start with something of a working definition of the word. One of the things that I think makes this moment difficult in terms of a sense of what's real and what's not is the way that our vocabulary is being co-opted or redefined without our permission. And things are being defined in ways that are not accurate or not grounded in reality. And I think that that's part of what feels disorienting in this moment. So I would love for us to just start with a definition of the word, and I'm guessing the three of us will have different versions of that.(02:25):So if I had to start, I would say that I used to think about resilience as sort of springing back to a starting point. You started in this place and then something knocked you off of where you started. And resilience is about making it back to the place that you were before you got knocked off of your path. And my definition of that word has shifted in recent years to a sense of resilience that is more about having come through some difficulty. I don't actually bounce back to where I started. I actually adopt a new normal new starting place that has integrated the lessons learned or the strengths or the skills developed for having gone through the process of facing something difficult.Jenny, I love that. I feel like it reminds me of a conversation you and I had many moons ago, Rebecca, around what is flourishing and kind of these maybe idealistic ideas around something that isn't actually rooted in reality. And I love that that definition of resistance feels so committed to being in reality. And I am not going to erase everything I went through to try to get back to something, but I'm actually going to, my word is compost or use what I've gone through to bring me to where I am. Now, this will not surprise either of you. I think when I think of resilience, I think somatically and how we talk about a nervous system or a body and what allows resilience. And so one of the ways that that is talked about is through heart rate variability and our ability for our heart to speed up and slow down is one of the defining factors of our body's ability to stay resilient.(04:42):Can I come to a state of rest and I think about how rest is a privilege that not all bodies have. And so when I think about resilience in that way, it makes me think about how do I actually zoom out of resilience being about an individual body and how do we form kind of more of a collective sense of resilience where we are coworking to create a world where all bodies get to return to that level of safety and rest and comfort and aren't having to stay in a mode of vigilance. And so I see resilience almost as one of the directions that I'm wanting to move and not a place that we're at yet collectively. Collectively meaning whoJenny (05:41):I say collectively, I'm hoping for a world that does not exist yet where it gets to be all bodies, human and non-human, and the ways in which we allow ecosystems to rest, we allow a night sky to rest. We allow ourselves to become more in rhythm with the activation and deactivation that I think nature teaches us of more summer and winter and day and night and these rhythms that I think we're meant to flow in. But in a productive capitalistic society where lights are never turned off and energy is only ever thought about and how do we produce more or different energy, I'm like, how do we just stop producing energy and just take a nap? I'm really inspired by the nat ministry of just like rest actually is a really important part of resistance. And so I have these lofty ideals of what collective means while being aware that we are coming to that collective from very different places in our unresolved historical relational field that we're in.I would say there's a lot I'd love about that, all of that. And I, dear use of the word lofty, I feel that word in this moment that causes me to consider the things that feel like they're out of reach. I think the one thing that I would probably add to what you said is I think you used the phrase like returning to a state of rest when you were talking about heart rate and body. And if we're talking about an individual ability to catch my breath and slow it down, I can track with you through the returning to something. But when we go from that individual to this collective space where I live in the hyphenated existence of the African American story, I don't have the sense of returning to something because African hyphen American people were born as a people group out of this horrific traumatic space called the transatlantic slave trade.(08:15):And so I don't know that our bodies have ever known a sense of rest on us soil. And I don't know that I would feel that that sense of rest on the continent either having been there several times, that sense of something happened in the transition from Africa to America, that I lost my africanness in such a way that doesn't feel like a place of rest. And sometimes we talk about it in terms of for certain people groups, land is connected to that sense of rest for Native Americans, for indigenous people, for certain Latin cultures. But for the African American person, there's not a connection to land. There's only maybe a connection to the water of the transatlantic slave trade. And then water is never at rest. It's always moving, right? So I stay with you and then I lose you and then I come back to you.Danielle (09:25):That feels like a normal part of healing. I stay with you, I lose you and then I come back to you. I think resilience for me has meant living in this family with my partner who's a first generation immigrant and then having kids and having to remind myself that my kids were raised by both of us with two wildly d

Danielle (00:20):Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations about reality and talking a lot about what that means in the context of church, faith, race, justice, religion, all the things. Today, I'm so honored to have Sarah Van Gelder, a community leader, an example of working and continuing to work on building solidarity and networks and communication skills and settling into her lane. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Hey, Sarah, it's so good to be with you. And these are just casual conversations, and I do actual minimal editing, but they do get a pretty good reach, so that's exciting. I would love to hear you introduce yourself. How do you introduce yourself these days? Tell me a little bit about who you are. Okay.Sarah (01:14):My name is Sarah Van Gelder and I live in Bremer and Washington. I just retired after working for the Suquamish Tribe for six years, so I'm still in the process of figuring out what it means to be retired, doing a lot of writing, a certain amount of activism, and of course, just trying to figure out day to day, how to deal with the latest, outrageous coming from the administration. But that's the most recent thing. I think what I'm most known for is the founding yes magazine and being the editor for many years. So I still think a lot about how do we understand that we're in an era that's essentially collapsing and something new may be emerging to take its place? How do we understand what this moment is and really give energy to the emergence of something new? So those are sort of the foundational questions that I think about.Danielle (02:20):Okay. Those are big questions. I hadn't actually imagined that something new is going to emerge, but I do agree there is something that's collapsing, that's disintegrating. As you know, I reached out about how are we thinking about what is reality and what is not? And you can kind of see throughout the political spectrum or community, depending on who you're with and at what time people are viewing the world through a specific lens. And of course, we always are. We have our own lens, and some people allow other inputs into that lens. Some people are very specific, what they allow, what they don't allow. And so what do we call as reality when it comes to reality and politics or reality and faith or gender, sexuality? It's feeling more and more separate. And so that's kind of why I reached out to you. I know you're a thinker. I know you're a writer, and so I was wondering, as you think about those topics, what do you think even just about what I've said or where does your mind go?Sarah (03:32):Yeah. Well, at first when you said that was the topic, I was a little intimidated by it because it sounded a little abstract. But then I started thinking about how it is so hard right now to know what's real, partly because there's this very conscious effort to distort reality and get people to accept lies. And I think actually part of totalitarian work is to get people to just in the Orwellian book 1984, the character had to agree that two plus two equals five. And only when he had fully embraced that idea could he be considered really part of society.(04:14):So there's this effort to get us to accept things that we actually know aren't true. And there's a deep betrayal that takes place when we do that, when we essentially gaslight ourselves to say something is true when we know it's not. And I think for a lot of people who have, I think that's one of the reasons the Republican party is in such trouble right now, is because so many people who in previous years might've had some integrity with their own belief system, have had to toss that aside to adopt the lies of the Trump administration, for example, that the 2020 election was stolen. And if they don't accept those lies, they get rejected from the party. And once you accept those lies, then from then on you have betrayed yourself. And in many ways, you've betrayed the people who trust you. So it's a really tough dilemma sort of at that political level, even for people who have not bought into the MAGA mindset, or I do think of it as many people have described as a cult.(05:31):Now, even for people who have not bought into that, I think it's just really hard to be in a world where so many fundamental aspects of reality are not shared with people in your own family, in your own workplace, in your own community. I think it's incredibly challenging and we don't really know, and I certainly don't know how to have conversations. In fact, this is a question I wanted to ask you to have conversations across that line of reality because there's so much places where feelings get hurt, but there's also hard to reference back to any shared understanding in order to start with some kind of common ground. It feels like the ground is just completely unreliable. But I'd love to hear your thoughts about how you think about that.Danielle (06:33):It's interesting. I have some family members that are on the far, far, including my parent, well, not my parents exactly, but my father, and I've known this for a while. So prior to what happened in a couple weeks ago with the murder of an activist, I had spent a lot of time actually listening to that activist and trying to understand what he stood for, what he said, why my family was so interested in it. I spent time reading. And then I also was listening to, I don't know if you're familiar with the Midas Touch podcast? Yeah. So I listened to the Midas Brothers, and they're exact opposites. They're like, one is saying, you idiot, and the other one is like, oh, you're an idiot. And so when I could do it, when I had space to do it, it was actually kind of funny to me.(07:34):Sometimes I'm like, oh, that's what they think of someone that thinks like me. And that's when that guy says, calls them an idiot. I feel some resonance with that. So I did that a lot. However, practically speaking, just recently in the last couple months, someone reached out to me from across the political ideology line and said, Hey, wouldn't it be fun if we got together and talked? We think really differently. We've known each other for 20 years. Could you do that? So I said, I thought about it and I was like, yeah, I say this, I should act on it. I should follow through. So I said, okay, yeah, let's meet. We set up a time. And when you get that feeling like that person's not going to show up, but you're also feeling like, I don't know if I want them to show up.(08:24):Am I really going to show up? But it's kind of like a game of chicken. Well, I hung in there longer, maybe not because I wanted to show up, but just because I got distracted by my four kids and whatnot, and it was summer, and the other person did say, oh, I sprained my ankle. I can't have a conversation with you. I was like, oh, okay. And they were like, well, let me reschedule. So I waited. I didn't hear back from them, and then they hopped onto one of my Facebook pages and said some stuff, and I responded and I said, Hey, wait a minute. I thought we were going to have a conversation in person. And it was crickets, it was silence, it was nothing. And then I was tagged in some other comments of people that I would consider even more extreme. And just like, this is an example of intolerance.(09:13):And I was like, whoa, how did I get here? How did I get here? And like I said, I'm not innocent. I associate some of the name calling and I have those explicit feelings. And I was struck by that. And then in my own personal family, we started a group chat and it did not go well. As soon as we jumped into talking about immigration and ice enforcement and stuff after there were two sides stated, and then the side that was on the far right side said, well, there's no point in talking anymore. We're not going to convince each other. And my brother and I were like, wait a minute, can we keep talking? We're not going to convince each other, but how can we just stop talking? And it's just been crickets. It's been silence. There's been nothing. So I think as you ask me that, I just feel like deep pain, how can we not have the things I think, or my perception of what the other side believes is extremely harmful to me and my family. But what feels even more harmful is the fact that we can't even talk about it. There's no tolerance to hear how hurtful that is to us or the real impact on our day-to-day life. And I think this, it's not just the ideology, but it's the inability to even just have some empathy there. And then again, if you heard a guy like Charlie Kirk, he didn't believe in empathy. So I have to remember, okay, maybe they don't even believe in empathy. Okay, so I don't have an answer. What about you?Sarah (11:03):No, I don't either. Except to say that I think efforts that are based on trying to convince someone of a rational argument don't work because this is not about analysis or about rationality, it's about identity, and it's about deep feelings of fear and questions of worthiness. And I think part of this moment we're in with the empire collapsing, the empire that has shorn up so much of our way of life, even people who've been at the margins of it, obviously not as much, but particularly people who are middle class or aspiring to be middle class or upper, that has been where we get our sense of security, where we get our sense of meaning. For a lot of white people, it's their sense of entitlement that they get to have. They're entitled to certain kinds of privileges and ways of life. So if that's collapsing and I believe it is, then that's a very scary time and it's not well understood. So then somebody comes along who's a strong man like Trump and says, not only can I explain it to you, but I can keep you safe. I can be your vengeance against all the insults that you've had to live with. And it's hard to give that up because of somebody coming at you with a rational discussion.(12:36):I think the only way to give that up is to have somethi

Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHCI am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias’ and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!Danielle (00:28):Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations based in what our reality is, faith, race, justice, gender in the church, therapy, all matter of things considered just exploring this topic of reality. Hey, I'm having this regular podcast co-host. Her name is Jenny McGrath. She's an M-A-C-P-L-M-H-C. She's dope. She's a licensed mental health counselor, a somatic experiencing practitioner, certified yoga teacher, and an approved supervisor in the state of Washington. She spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. And she's come to see that bodies are so important and she believes that by approaching the body with curiosity, we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens. So I hope you're as thrilled as me to have such an amazing co-host join me. Yeah, we're going to talk about reality and therapy. We're just jumping in. Jenny and I are both writing books.Jenny, I think it's funny that we are good friends and we see each other when we're around each other, but then if not, we're always trading reels and often they're like parodies on real life. Funny things about real life that are happening, which I've been, the theme of my book is called Splitting, and I know you write about purity culture, and a part of that I think really has to do with what is our reality and how is it formed? And then that shapes what we do, how we act, how we behave in the world, how we relate to each other. So any thoughts on that? On Thursday, September 25th,Jenny (02:17):I mean, as you named that, I think 10 minutes before this started, I sent you a reel. There was a comedian singing Why She Doesn't Go to Therapy, and it says, all my friends that go to therapy are mean to me, and you don't have boundaries. You're just being an asshole. And it was good, but it was also existential. This was what seems to me a white woman. And I do think as a white woman who's a therapist, I feel existential a lot about the work I do in therapy and in healing spaces, and how we do this in a way that doesn't promote this hyper individualistic reality. And this idea that everything I see and everything I think is the way that it is, how do I stay open to more of a communal or collective way of knowing? And I think that that's a challenging thing. So that's something that comes to mind for me as you bring up Instagram reels.Danielle (03:26):Oh man, I have so many thoughts on that that I wasn't thinking before you said it, but I think they were all locked in a vault, been unleashed. No, seriously. You come from your own position in the world. Talk about your position and how did you come to that point of seeing more of a collective mindset or reality point of view?Jenny (03:47):I mean, honestly, I think a big part has been knowing you and working with you and knowing that I think we've had conversations over the years of both the privilege and the detriment that happens in a lot of white therapeutic spaces that say you just need detach from your family, from your community, from those who have harmed you. And I want to be very, very clear and very careful that obviously I do think that there are situations we need to extract ourselves from and remove ourselves from. And I think that can become disabling for bodies to, I've been having this thing play in my head lately where I'm like, are you healed? Or have you just cut off everyone that triggers you?Yeah, and I saw another, speaking of meme, it was like, I treat my trauma like Trump treats tariffs. I just implement boundaries arbitrarily, and they harm everyone.And so I think it's, there is a certain privilege that comes with being able to say, I'm just going to step away. I'm going to do my own thing. I'm going to do my healing journey. And I think there is a detriment to that and there's a loss. And I think we have co-evolved to be in community and to tell stories and to share reality and to hold reality in the tension of our space. I think about it as we each have a different lens. There's no objective reality, but if I can be open to your lens and you can be open to my lens, then we actually have two lenses, and then if we have five lenses or 10 lenses, we can have a much fuller picture of where we are rather than seeing the world through the really monochromatic white, patriarchal, Christian nationalist lens that we've been maybe conditioned, or at least I was conditioned to see the world through.Danielle (06:10):Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, I know we've talked about this so many times, and I think it just feels so present right now, especially as every moment it feels like every day. If you watch the news, if you don't take a break, I think you can be jarred at any moment or dissociated at any moment, or traumatized at any moment, or maybe feel a bit of joy too when someone says a smack down on your side of the issue. And I think that when we get in that mode of constantly being jarred and then we try to come into a healing space, it's like how do we determine then what is actually healing for us? What is actually good? What is actually wise? And I agree, I think if we're in a rhythm of being on our own, and I'm not criticizing, I mean, I get lonely and I'm part of a group, so I'm not speaking to loneliness particularly, but I'm speaking to the idea that no one else has input in your life, even the kind of input you may not agree with, but no one else is allowed to speak to you.(07:15):When I get in those spaces, it's not that I just feel lonely, I don't feel any hope. I don't feel any movement or any possibility because let's say that this ends tomorrow, that authoritarian regime magically ends. It's healed tomorrow. We're going to have to look at all of our people in our lives and face them and decide what we're going to do. I mean, that's what I think about a lot. At the end of the day, I might sit next to someone that hates me or that I perhaps might have rage and anger towards them. What are we going to do? So I don't know, when you talk about the different lenses, I'm not sure how that all mixes together. I don't have an answer, basically. Shoot.Jenny (08:05):But I also think that that's part of maybe how we hold reality is maybe it is more about presence and being with what is, rather than having an answer, I think I become more and more skeptical of anyone who says they have an answer for anything.Danielle (08:31):So I mean, there was this guy that recently passed away, and there was, on one hand I wanted to really talk about it, and on the other hand, I didn't want to talk about it because it took up so much space. And I feel that even as we start to talk about how do we form healing spaces in therapy with that, I think, what did you call it that, what kind of lens did you say? It was like a monochromatic lens. How do we talk about that without centering it?Jenny (09:08):I think one thing that comes to mind is holding it in context of all of the other deaths that have not taken up that space. And the social studies phrase, what are the conditions of possibility that have enabled this death to create church services happening that have taken over people's social media, people who have been silent about lots of different deaths in the last year or five years, all of a sudden can't help but become really vigilant about talking about this. I think for me, it helps to zoom back and go, how come? Why is this so prevalent? Why is this so loud? What is this illuminating or what is this unearthing about? What's already been here?So I grew up in very fundamentalist, white evangelical Christianity. And from the time I was eight, nine years old, I had in me messages instilled of martyrdom, whether that was a message that I should be a martyr, or whether that was a message that Christians were already being martyred, whether that was the war against Christmas with Starbucks cups or not having prayers happen at school. And these things where I grew up in this world where we were supposed to be prominent, we were supposed to be prevalent, we were supposed to be protected. And whenever there was any challenge to that from bodies that weren't white or straight or Christian or American, there became this very real frenzy around martyrdom. And I think on an interpersonal level and on a collective level, someone who plays the victim will always hold the most power in the relational dynamic. And so I think that this moment was a very useful moment to that

BioPhil Allen, Jr., PhD is a theologian and ethicist whose research and writings include the intersections of social structure, race, culture, and theology and ethics of justice. He has authored two books: Open Wounds: A Story of Racial Tragedy, Trauma, and Redemption and The Prophetic Lens: The Camera and Black Moral Agency From MLK to Darnella Frazier. He is an affiliate assistant professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, a poet, and documentary filmmaker. Dr. Allen is also founder of the nonprofit Racial Solidarity Project based in Pasadena, CA. As a former Division 1 college basketball player, he has enjoyed opportunities as a guest chaplain for college and professional sports teams.Phil Allen Jr., PhDAffiliate Assistant Professor | Fuller Theological SeminaryPresident: Racial Solidarity Project (RSP)Philallenjr.com | openwoundsdoc.comInstagram: @philallenjrig | @the_rspThreads: @philallenjrigFacebook: Phil Allen, Jr.Substack: @philallenjrLinkedIn: @philallenjrWelcome to the Arise podcast, conversations in Reality centered on our same themes, faith, race, justice, gender in the church. So happy to welcome my buddy and a colleague, just a phenomenal human being. Dr. Phil Allen, Jr. He has a PhD. He's a theologian and an ethicist whose research and writings include intersections of social structure, race, culture, and theology, and the ethics of justice. He has also authored two books, open Wounds, A Story of Racial Tragedy, trauma and Redemption, and the Prophetic Lens, the Camera and the Black Moral Agency from MLK to Dan Darnell Frazier. He's an affiliate assistant professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, a poet and a documentary filmmaker. Dr. Allen is also founder of the nonprofit Racial Solidarity Project based in Pasadena, California as a former division one college basketball player. Yes, he has enjoyed opportunities as a guest chaplain for college and professional sports. Hey, you're not going to be disappointed. You're going to find questions, curiosity ways to interact with the material here. Please just open up your mindset and your heart to what is shared today, and I encourage you to share and spread the word. Hey, Phil. Here we find ourselves back again talking about similar subjects.Danielle (00:18):Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations in Reality centered on our same themes, faith, race, justice, gender in the church. So happy to welcome my buddy and a colleague, just a phenomenal human being. Dr. Phil Allen, Jr. He has a PhD. He's a theologian and an ethicist whose research and writings include intersections of social structure, race, culture, and theology, and the ethics of justice. He has also authored two books, open Wounds, A Story of Racial Tragedy, trauma and Redemption, and the Prophetic Lens, the Camera and the Black Moral Agency from MLK to Dan Darnell Frazier. He's an affiliate assistant professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, a poet and a documentary filmmaker. Dr. Allen is also founder of the nonprofit Racial Solidarity Project based in Pasadena, California as a former division one college basketball player. Yes, he has enjoyed opportunities as a guest chaplain for college and professional sports. Hey, you're not going to be disappointed. You're going to find questions, curiosity ways to interact with the material here. Please just open up your mindset and your heart to what is shared today, and I encourage you to share and spread the word. Hey, Phil. Here we find ourselves back again talking about similar subjects.Unfortunately. Well, how are you coming in today? How is your body? How's your mind? How are you coming in? Just first of all,Phil Allen Jr. (01:51):I am coming in probably in one of the best places, spaces in a long time. The last two days have been very, very encouraging and uplifting, having nothing to do with what's happening in the world. I turned 52, I told you I turned 52 yesterday. So whenever I see the happy birthdays and the messages, text messages, social media messages, literally it just lifts me up. But in that, I also had two people share something that I preached. Oh, 10 years ago, what? And one other person, it was 17 years ago, something I taught that came full circle. One person used it in a message for a group of people, and the other person was just saying, 10 years ago, about 10 years ago, you preached a message that was, it impacted me seriously. He didn't know who I was, and he the dots, and he realized, oh, that's the guy that preached when we went to that. And so that, to me, it was so encouraging to hear thoseBecause you never know where your messages land, how impactful they are, and for people to bring that up. That just had me light. Then I did 20 miles, so physically 20I feel great after that. I'm not sore. I'm not tired. I could go run right now, another 10, but I'm not. Okay. Okay, good. Today is rest day good? Yes, I did a crim community resiliency model present workshop.I dunno if you're familiar with, are you familiar with crim?Crim was developed by Trauma Resource Institute here in Claremont, California by Elaine Miller Carra, and they go around the world. They have trainees and people around the world that go into places that just experienced traumatic eventsThe tsunami in Indonesia to school shootings around the country. So here, obviously we had the fires from January, and so we did a workshop to help. What it is is helping people develop the skills, practical skills. There are six skills to regulate the nervous systems, even in the moments. I was certified in 2020 to do that, and so I did a co-led presentation. It was great, very well received. I had fun doing it. So empowering to give people these skills. I use them every day, resourcing, just like when you asked me, how are you in your body? So for a moment, I have to track, I have to notice what's going on with my body. That's the firstSo we teach people those skills and it is just the last few days, Monday, Tuesday, and today already. I just feel light and it's no coincidence I didn't watch the news at all yesterday.Okay. Even on social media, there's no coincidence. I feel light not having engaged those things. So I feel good coming in this morning.Danielle (05:32):Okay, I like that. Well, I know I texted you, I texted you a couple months ago. I was like, let's record a podcast. And then as you alluded to, the world's kept moving at a rapid pace and we connected. And I've been doing a lot of thinking for a long time, and I know you and I have had conversations about what does it look like to stay in our bodies, be in our bodies in this time, and I've been thinking about it, how does that form our reality? And as you and I have talked about faith, I guess I'm coming back to that for you, for how you think about faith and how it informs your reality, how you're in reality, how you're grounding yourself, especially as you alluded to. We do know we can't be involved every second with what's happening, but we do know that things are happening. So yeah, just curious, just open up the conversation like that.Phil Allen Jr. (06:28):Yeah, I think I'm going to go back to your first question. I think your first question you asked me sets the tone for everything. And I actually answered this similarly to someone yesterday when you said, how are you in your body? And for me, that's the first I've learned, and a lot of it has to do with community resiliency model that I just talked about, to pay attention to what's going on in my body. That tells me a lot. That tells me if I'm good, I can't fake it. You can fake how you feel. You can fake and perform what you think, but you can't with the sensations and the response of your body to different circumstances, that's going to be as real, as tangible. So I pay attention first to that. That tells me how much I'm going to engage a subject matter. It tells me how much I want to stay in that space, whether it's the news, whether it's conversation with someone. My body tells me a lot now, and I don't separate that from my faith. We can go through biblical narrative and we can see where things that are going on physically with someone is addressed or is at least acknowledged. It is just not in the forefront emphasized. So we don't think that paying attention to what's going on in your body matters,When you have that dualistic approach to faith where the soul is all that matters. Your body is just this flesh thing. No, God created all of it. Therefore, all of it's valuable and we need to pay attention to all of it. So that's the first place I start. And then in terms of faith, I'm a realist. I'm a Christian realist, so I put things in perspective. The love ethic of Jesus is an ideal. Scripture is an ideal. It's telling us when you look at Christ, Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is also called the son of man. And from my understanding and my learnings, son of man refers to the human one, the ideal human one, right? He is divinity, but he's deity, but he's also a human, and he's the human that we look to for the ideal way to live. And so this perfect ideal of love, the love ethic of Jesus, I believe it's unattainable on this side of heaven. I think we should always strive to love our enemies. But how many people actually love their enemies? Bless them. I saw what Eric, I think his name, first name is Erica Kirk forgave theOkay? I'm not here to judge whether that's real or if she felt obligated because I know some Christians, they wrestle because they feel obligated to forgive almost immediately. I don't feel that obligation if my body is not in a place where I can just say, I forgive you. I need to get to a place where I can forgive. But let's just say it's very real. She is. I forgive this young man. How many people can do that? We admire it. How many Christians will just say, I forgive, genuinely say, I forgive the person who killed my children's father. So it's not that it can't be done, but sustained. There are few people who could do what

Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone:  +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me… Rebecca (01:12):Say, oh, this is for black women, and then what? Because I quoted a couple of black people that count. I don't want to do that. And also I'm still trying to process. When you run a group like that for, and it's not embedded in something like a story workshop or a larger kind of thing, the balance of how do you give people the information and still leave room to process all of that. I'm still trying to figure out what does it look like? What does it feel like? What does it sound like? And I won't be able to figure, it's not like I can figure it out before the group and you know what I mean? You just have to roll with it. So yeah,Danielle (02:01):All those things. That's so hard, man. Man, dude, that's so hard. It's so hard to categorize it. Even What's the right time of day to hold this? What are the right words to say to tell people, this is how you can show up. And even when you say all those things and you think you've created some clarity or safety or space, they still show up in their own way, of course. And they may not have read your email. They may have signed all this stuff and it may not be what they want. Or maybe it changes and it becomes something even more beautiful. I don't know. That's how I've experienced it.Rebecca (02:39):It's all those things, and I think, and this is what I want to do, this is taking this work into a community and a space that is never going to show up in Seattle for all a thousand reasons. And soDanielle (02:56):Thousands of dollar reasons,Rebecca (02:58):Right? Thousands of dollar reasons. And so this is what I want to do. And so the million dollar question, how do you actually do that with some integrity? How do you do it in a way that actually, I don't even know if I could say I know that I want it to produce a particular result is just when I started doing this on my own, I had a lot of people reach out to me and go like, this is amazing. This is a brilliant, this is something I've been looking for without knowing that's what I've been looking for. Do you know what I mean? I think that that's true, sort of that evangelical refugee space. That's true right now. I think it's appealing on those levels. I think for people who would not necessarily go to therapy for the hundred of reasons why that's an uncomfortable thing. Culturally, this feels like it has a little more oxygen in the room,Danielle  (04:20):And I'll turn my screen off. I'll make the call and then yeah, then I want to hear a little bit about your business, more about your group, and I, I'd love to just, I want to focus this whole season on what is reality in the realm of faith, culture, life therapy, religion, if you're in a religion versus a faith. Yeah. Just those what is our reality? Because I think even as you talk about group, it's like what is the reality for that group of people for accessing care? So that's the overall season theme.Speaker 2 (05:00):Okay.Speaker 1 (05:02):How does that sound for you?Speaker 2 (05:03):That sounds great.Speaker 1 (05:04):Yeah. I know you have a lot of thoughts,Speaker 2 (05:07):But we do good bouncing off each other's thoughts. Me and you were good.Speaker 1 (05:13):So tell me how you started your own business.Speaker 2 (05:16):That's a good question. There's probably a long answer and a short answer. The long one is that I went and got a master's in marriage and family from a seminary 20 plus years ago, and by the time I finished my degree, I chose to go back to being a full-time attorney. And there's a story there, as there always is, that has to do with me almost being kicked out of theSpeaker 3 (05:55):ProgramSpeaker 2 (05:56):Because someone lodged a complaint against me as a person. The stated reason behind the claim was that my disability was a distraction to clients,(06:09):And I was absolutely undone and totally shredded, all just completely undone by the entire ordeal experience, all of it. It just really undid me in a way that I don't know if I could have put the pieces together then, but I think that played a huge part in me going, I'm going to go back to my original career, which was being an attorney, and I will put this down and I don't know. And so it's 20 plus years later, I still have that whatever was the inclination inside of me that made me say, this work is the kind of work I want to do is still there. And so I think this time around I felt empowered, I felt supported. I felt like I had people and community around me, people like you and lots of people that was like, I can actually do this, and I don't necessarily need the permission of an institution or the rubber stamp of another person to actually take what I have learned about living life and offer it to someone else. So I find myself now the owner and practitioner of solid foundation story Coaching, and we're going to see where the Lord leads and we're going to see where we end up.Speaker 1 (07:38):Okay. When in any moment, I might have to hop off here, you said nine 10 to nine 15, but what do you imagine then for your first offerings? I know you jumped in a little bit at the beginning and we kind of touched on it, but what are your first, what's your desire? What are you trying to offer?Speaker 2 (08:00):That's a good confusion too. I think a couple of things. I come from a very conservative evangelical Christian background that is also, there's these parallel roots in my background that are rooted in the black church. And every once in a while I can feel my evangelical why and what and why, and what I think the short answer is just care. You asked me what do you want to offer? And that I think my answer is care for a lot of reasons. When I look at my own story and my own life and my own path, there are lots of ways and places where I can identify. I didn't have the care that I needed. I didn't have the support that I needed to get where I wanted to go, sort of maybe unscathed, maybe in the shortest path possible with the least amount of obstacles as a woman, as a person of color, as a black American woman in the church, in as a person with a disability, all kinds of ways in which there were places in ways that I needed care that I didn't get. And even with all that being said, once, twice, maybe three times the exact right care at the exact right moment from the person who was capable and willing to give it, and it only takes one person at just the right time to offer just a few minutes of care and what is impossible becomes possible,(10:01):And what is too painful to breathe through becomes something that you can now face head on. So I think in some way, maybe it's paying forward what those people who offered me care gave to me, and now it's my chance to give it back.Rebecca (10:37):Right? Yeah. I mean, if I were going to go for the obvious, the things that we are most comfortable talking about at this moment in our country's history, to women who have faced misogyny in its most simplistic and its most complex and twisted ways to black folks and all that we have faced and struggled through to people of color. There are all kinds of ways in which out of my own story, there are corners that I recognize. And what do I mean by that, right? I have lived my life as an African-American woman, and so there are corners in life that I have come to recognize. That moment when you recognize that somehow this moment, which should be simple and just human has become racialized, and you catch it by a glance, a look, a silence that lasts too long, and you go like, oh, I know exactly where I am.(11:53):I may not know the person in front of me, but I know people like them, and this experience begins to feel familiar, and I know what this corner looks like, and I know what it sounds like, and I know where the dip in the sidewalk is, and I know where there's this pothole that if you step in it the wrong way, you're going to twist your ankle. I know exactly how long you have to cross the street before that flashing red hand comes up. The ways in which, because you've been here before because you've struggled in a familiar moment, you know what it looks like and sounds like and feels like,(12:33):And because it is familiar, then perhaps you can offer something of wisdom or kindness to someone who's new to that corner who doesn't quite know how to navigate it. So I ca

Reality and Faith Prompts1. What are the formations or structures for how you know you are in reality in regards to your faith? Do you have indicators? Internal senses? External resources? 2. Who are you in active dialogue with in regards to your faith? Who that is living and who that is passed on? 3. When you encounter dissonance with your reality of faith, how do you stay grounded in your experience?TranscriptsDanielle (00:00):To my computer. So thank you Starlet. Thank you Tamis for being with me. I've given already full introductions. I've recorded those separately. So the theme of the conversation and kind of what we're getting into on this podcast this season is I had this vision for talking about the themes have been race, faith, culture, church in the past on my podcast. But what I really think the question is, where is our reality and where are our touchpoints in those different realms? And so today there's going to be more info on this in the future, but where do we find reality and how do we form our reality when we integrate faith? So one of the questions I was asking Tamis and Starlet was what are the formations or structures for how you know are in reality in regards to your faith? Do you have indicators? Do you have internal senses? Do you have external resources? And so that's where I want to jump off from and it's free flow. I don't do a whole lot of editing, but yeah, just curious where your mind goes when you hear that, what comes to mind and we'll jump from there.Starlette (01:12):I immediately thought of baptism, baptismal waters. My baptismal identity forms and shapes me. It keeps me in touch with my body. It keeps me from being disembodied. Also, it keeps me from being swindled out of authority over my body due to the dangerous irrationalism of white body supremacy. So that's one thing. Protest also keeps me grounded. I have found that acts of defiance, minor personal rebellions, they do well for me. They keep me spiritually that I feel like it keeps me in step with Jesus. And I always feel like I'm catching up that I'm almost stepping on his feet. So for me, baptismal identity and protesting, those are the two things come to me immediately.Tamice (02:04):Whoa, that's so deep. Wow, I never thought about that. But I never thought about protests being a thing that groundsBecause I mean I've just been, for me I would say I've been working on the right so, and y'all know me, so I got acronyms for days. But I mean I think that the radical ethical spirituality that's tethered to my tradition, that's a rule of life, but it's also a litmus test. So for me, if you can't tell the truth, we don't have conversations about non-violence and loving enemies. I don't get to ethical spirituality unless you come through the front door of truth telling and truth telling in that sense of the r. And the rest arrest mix tape is radical. Angela Davis says radical and that's grasping stuff at the root. So before we have conversations about forgiveness for instance, or Jesus or scripture or what is right and what is moral, it's very important that we first tell the truth about the foundations of those realities and what we even mean by those terms and whose those terms serve and where they come from. I talk about it asking to see the manager. We need see the manager(03:24):Me that grounds me is now if something comes in and it calls me to move in a different way or corrects me or checks me in a certain way, I say yes to it if it comes through the door of truth telling because it means I also got to be true and tell the truth to myself. So that keeps me grounded. That kind of acronym is kind of how I move, but it's also how I keep toxic ways of doing religion out. And I also have come back into relationship with trees and grass and the waters and that's been really powerful for moving down into different types of intelligence. For me, the earth has been pulling me into a different way of knowing and being in that part brings me to ancestors. Just like you starlet my ancestors, I keep finding them in the trees and in the water and in the wind. So it's like, well I need them real bad right now. So that's where I'm kind of grounding myself these days.But to your point about grounding and protest, I feel most compelled to show up in spaces where the ground is crying out screaming. I feel like it beckons me there. And we talked about the most recent news of Trey being found and you talked about truth telling and what resonated immediately. And it didn't sit right with me that African-American people, people of African descent know not to take their lives in that way because of the traumatic history that when you say things like you don't suspect any foul play, it sounds like what has historically been named as at the hands of persons unknown where that no one is held responsible for the death of African-American people. That's what ties it in for me. And I feel like it's an ancestral pool that they didn't leave this way, they didn't leave in the way that they were supposed to, that something stinks and that they're crying out to say, can you hear me? Come over here Terry a while here. Don't leave him here. Don't let up on it because we didn't call him here somebody. So I love that you said that you are, feel yourself being grounded in and call back to the earth because I do feel like it speaks to us,But there are telltale signs in it and that the trees will tell us too. And so I didn't have a hand in this. It was forced on me and I saw it all come and talk to me. Put your hand here, put your head here and you can hear me scream and then you can hear me scream, you can hear him scream. He was calling out the whole time. That's what I believe in. That's how I test reality. I tested against what the earth is saying like you said, but I think we have to walk the ground a bit. We have to pace the ground a bit. We can't just go off of what people are saying. Back to your point about truth telling, don't trust nobody I don't trust. I don't trust anybody that's going to stop because you can't fix a lie. So if you're going to come in with deception, there's not much else I can do with you. There's not much I can say to you. And I find that white body supremacy is a supreme deception. So if we can't start there in a conversation, there's nothing that I can say to youTamice (06:46):That's facts. It's interesting that you talked about baptism, you talked about grounding and I had this story pop up and while you were talking again it popped up again. So I'm going to tell it. So we are not going to talk about who and all the things that happened recently, but I had made some comments online around that and around just the choice to be blind. So I've been talking a lot about John nine and this passage where it is very clear to everyone else what's happening, but the people who refuse to see, refuse to see.So in that, I was kind of pulled into that. I was in Mississippi, I was doing some stuff for the book and this lady, a chaplain, her name is Sally Bevin, actually Sally Bevel, she walked up to me, she kept calling me, she was like, Tam me, she want to come. I have my whole family there. We were at the Mississippi Book Fair and she kept saying, Tam me, she want to come join, dah, dah, dah. Then my family walked off and they started to peruse and then she asked me again and I was like, no, I'm good. And I was screaming. I mean I'm looking in the screen and the third time she did it, it pulled me out and I was like, this woman is trying to pull me into being present. And she said to me, this is funny, starlet. I said, I feel like I need to be washed and I need a baptism because this phone feels like so on right now and the wickedness is pulling me. So she poured, she got some ice, cold water, it was 95 degrees, poured cold water on my hands, had me wash my hands and she took the cold water. She put a cross on my forehead. And you know what she said to me? She said, remember your baptism?She said, remember your baptism? And when I was baptized, even though it was by a man who will not also be named, when I was baptized the wind, there was a whirlwind at my baptism. It was in 2004, that same wind hit in Mississippi and then I felt like I was supposed to take my shoes off. So I walked around the Mississippi Festival with no shoes on, not knowing that the earth was about to receive two people who did not deserve to be hung from trees. And there's something very, I feel real talk, I feel afraid for white supremacy right now in the name of my ancestors and I feel like I'm calling on everything right now. And that's also grounding me.Starlette (09:36):I was with Mother Moses last week. I went to Dorchester County just to be with her because the people were here. Take me. I said, I'll leave them all here. I know you said there are a few here, but give me the names, give me the last names of the people because I don't have time for this. I see why she left people. I see why she was packing. So to your point, I think it's important that we talk to the ancestors faithfully, religiously. We sit down at their feet and listen for a bit about how they got over and how they got through it and let them bear witness to us. And she does it for me every time, every single time she grounds, she grounds meDanielle (10:23):Listening to you all. I was like, oh wait. It is like Luke 19 where Jesus is coming in on the show and he didn't ride in on the fanciest plane on a donkey. And if you're familiar with that culture that is not the most elevated animal, not the elevated animal to ride, it's not the elevated animal. You don't eat it. Not saying that it isn't eaten at times, but it's not right. So he rides in on that and then people are saying glory to God in the highest and they're praising him and the Pharisees are like, don't do that because it's shameful and I don't remember the exact words, but he's basically be quiet. The rocks are going to tell the sto

The Arise Podcast – Edited TranscriptSpeaker 1 (00:29):Welcome to the Rise Podcast. As part of this process, we're going to talk about what reality is—how to find it, and how to ground yourself in it. I’ll have some regular co-hosts with me, as I mentioned earlier, and we’ll continue to explore faith, gender, race, sex, the church—all in the context of discovering reality.Today is September 10, 2025. As I pushed to get this episode out, plans shifted and things got canceled. I was busy with the kids, checking the news, scrolling Instagram, running errands, picking up sandwiches—just an ordinary day. Then I saw the headline: Charlie Kirk had been shot.Interestingly, Charlie Kirk and I disagree on almost everything, but I’ve occasionally listened to his podcast. I also listen to the Midas Touch podcast and others across the spectrum to understand what people are thinking and believing.(01:47)I ask myself: what reality am I living in, and whose voices am I letting in? When I have the capacity, I listen to people like Charlie Kirk, sometimes tune in to Fox News, check X/Twitter, or look at Truth Social—just to gauge different perspectives.I live on Squamish land—land of cedar and clear salt water—here in Poulsbo, Washington. Kitsap County is an interesting rural mix. We’re near Seattle, often labeled “ultra-liberal,” but that doesn’t exempt us from racism, elitism, or entrenched power structures. And our rural neighbors may identify as fiscally or socially conservative. You might meet someone who voted very differently from you—someone who will happily bring you cookies, or someone who might actually despise you.(02:48)This mix, I think, is closer to reality than living in silos. We may choose echo chambers for news, but we still rub shoulders at coffee shops, restaurants, gyms, and schools with people who think differently.I keep asking: how do we find a shared space to even talk? How do we locate common reality?Back in 2020, when George Floyd was murdered, I saw deep fractures emerge. I was just starting therapy groups on race and whiteness. Our diverse group gathered to talk about racism at a time when the country seemed ready for those conversations.(04:54)But quickly I noticed what I call splitting—fracturing when someone said something others couldn’t accept or even register in their bodies. It sometimes caused silence or confusion, and often led to sharp, even violent words meant to wound. And often the person speaking didn’t realize the harm.This fascinated me as a therapist. From a psychological perspective, I began to wonder: which part of ourselves shows up in everyday interactions? At a store, maybe just a polite hello. With a friend, maybe a brief check-in that still doesn’t touch the day’s deeper feelings.(07:07)Sometimes those layers of relationship reveal unspoken emotions—feelings inside that remain hidden. Healthy boundaries are normal, but there’s no guarantee that with those we love we suddenly share every vulnerable part of ourselves.Now add politics, faith, love, gender, culture: more layers. Many of these parts trace back to childhood—traumas, arguments, experiences at school or with caregivers.(08:15)So when I see splitting—what some call polarization, black-and-white or binary thinking, or even “boundaries as weapons”—I see people wrestling with what it means to be a neighbor and to engage someone who thinks radically differently.I feel the temptation myself to label everything all good or all bad. Children need that kind of distinction to learn what’s safe and unsafe, but adults must grow beyond it. Two things can be true at the same time: you hurt me, and I still love you and will show up. Yet our world increasingly tells us that can’t be true.(11:05)This pressure to split is intense—internally, from media, from social circles, from family. Sometimes I want to run away into the woods, start a farm, keep my kids home, just stay safe. Today, after news of a school shooting and Charlie Kirk’s murder, that desire feels even stronger.There are days I simply cannot engage with people who think differently. Other days, I have more capacity.So where is reality? For me, it’s grounding in faith—literally planting my feet on the earth, hugging a tree, touching grass.(13:30)I ask: who is God? Who is Jesus? And who have I been told God and Jesus are? I grew up in a rigid evangelical structure—shaped by purity culture and fear of punishment. I remember hearing, “If God calls you and you don’t act, He’ll move on and you’ll be left behind.” Even now, at 47, that idea haunts me.When I meet people from that tradition, I feel the urge to split—making my perspective all right and theirs all wrong. I have to remind myself of their humanity and of God’s love for them.Earlier this year, I chose to resist those splits. I called people where relationships felt scratchy or unresolved, inviting conversation. Not everyone responded, but the practice helped loosen old binds.(16:55)I also keep listening to multiple viewpoints. I never “followed” Charlie Kirk, but I’d check his posts and sometimes feel genuine tenderness when he shared about his family. That’s part of loving your enemies—remembering their humanity, even when you feel anger or rage.I grew up surrounded by conservative media. I even remember the early days of Fox News. As a teen reading Time magazine, I once told my parents that Michael Dukakis’s policies aligned more with my faith than his opponent’s. Over time I drifted toward trickle-down economics, but that early instinct still stands out.(21:22)All of us are socialized into certain beliefs. I went from conservative evangelical spaces to a conservative liberal-arts college. People warned I might “lose my faith,” yet those history classes deepened it. Today many claim that consuming certain media will “distort your reality.” Political violence is rising. I listen to both progressive and conservative podcasts to understand different lives. Yet when I cite something I’ve heard, I’m often told it’s “AI-generated” or “fake,” even when it’s a direct quote. Liberals do this too, around issues like Palestine, policing, or healthcare.(24:47)It’s painful to be around people who think differently. The question is: how do we converse without devolving into hate or shouting?Today is September 11. Between Charlie Kirk’s assassination, yesterday’s school shooting, and attempted political killings, it’s clear our nation is split into competing realities that shape everything—from how we see safety to how we practice faith and empathy.This podcast is about examining those realities and how we process them.(26:44)Sometimes we retreat inward to cope with trauma—what psychology might call dissociation or a psychic retreat. I understand the instinct to step back for safety.Maybe these divisions always existed, and I just see them more clearly now while raising my children. That responsibility feels heavy.(29:12)I often turn to elders and their words—Cesar Chavez, Dolores Huerta, Martin Luther King Jr.’s “Letter from Birmingham Jail.” They remind me others have endured violence and hatred and still held onto hope and faith.I fight for that same hope now.(30:04)To ground ourselves we can:- Connect with the earth: literally touch the ground, trees, water.- Stay in community: share meals, exchange help, build fences together.- Nourish faith: draw on spiritual wisdom.- Cherish family: use loved ones as emotional barometers.- Engage work and service: notice how they shape and sustain us.- Face issues of race and justice: ask if we contribute to harm or to healing.Your grounding pillars may differ, but these guide me.(32:40)I invite you to this journey. You may agree or disagree—that’s okay. We need space to coexist when it feels like only one side can survive.Violence won’t change hearts. Bullets cannot replace ballots. Money cannot buy joy or transformation. Only sustained dialogue and care can.(34:05)I’ll share some quotes from Dolores Huerta and Cesar Chavez in the show notes. Please stay curious and seek the mental-health support you need. Don’t be alone in your grief or fear. If you feel triggered or overwhelmed, reach out—to a therapist, pastor, trusted friend, or crisis helpline.A special guest and new co-host will join me next week. I look forward to continuing the conversation.   Crisis Resources:Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResource Contact Info What They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call Line Phone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/ 24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach Team Emergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/ Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS) Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/ Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now” Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx 24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the Peninsulas Phone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-Resources Local crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap County Website: https://namikitsap.org/ Peer support groups, education, a

 Spiritual Abuse, Christianity and the Election with Guest HostChristian Nationalism and Spiritual Abuse: A 90 minute workshop with Jenny McGrath (click here to register)w/Danielle S. Castillejo and Jenny McGrathAre you confused about what is going on in the US? Do you feel triggered about past spiritual abuse when you see certain elected officials and faith leaders using harmful rhetoric? Are you wanting understanding and tools to navigate this present moment? You are not alone!  Danielle Castillejo and I have been researching the various tributaries of white supremacy via Christian nationalism and spiritual abuse for years now. We are devastated to see what is playing out post Trump’s election, but we are not surprised.In early 2025 Danielle and I will be beginning groups for individuals who are wanting to process, grieve, and learn more about spiritual abuse and it’s various intersections with race. For now we are offering an introductory workshop to help individuals feel empowered to know what is going on. This workshop is hybrid- you can join online or in person in Poulsbo, Washington.We will not be giving all of the answers, but we will be giving a framework of “purity culture” and how that has fostered violence based on race, gender, ethnicity, and sexuality since the inception of the US. What is going on right now is not new, but many people are awakening to it for the first time.Stay awake. Come learn with us how we can resist, together. Note: This workshop will be recorded and made available for future purchase. Speaker 1 (00:13):Welcome to the ARise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and the church. And tune in and listen to this conversation today. Hey, thanks for joining me today. We've been talking about getting together, I think, in this format on a podcast since before the election, but obviously the election happened. It was a hectic season. I know for me, and I know for you, I want to hear about how that has been as well. But even just as we were kind of saying hello, we're leading in, I could tell like, oh man, shit, there's so many emotions that possibly come up. So we talked about talking about spiritual abuse, the election, and the role of Christianity in that. And for me, it's been so confusing. I grew up a really strict evangelical church. When Fox News appeared on the scene, my dad was watching Fox News and I was watching Fox News, and I've been trying to trace back, did I ever have any dissonance with this?(01:22):And I remember some of the first things when I was a kid, like reading a Time magazine about the election and wondering to myself, why do Christians, the Christians I was with, why do they support Republicans? Why are they against social programs? And then when the Iraq war was going on, it felt very clear to me that SDA Hus saying that they were lying about what was happening in the Middle East. But I didn't understand how all of the Republicans that were kind of pushing this narrative about Iraq, why didn't anybody even ask just simple history majors becauseSpeaker 2 (02:02):It'sSpeaker 1 (02:02):Obvious. So those are kind of some of the origins. I remember kind of questioning my roots and questioning the narrative of say, Fox News. And now I know there's, there's Charlie Kirk, there's all these other podcast out there kind of rebranding Fox News talking points. But I mean, where that intersected with faith for me is just like, well, how do I even talk about a character like Jesus with someone from that old place when I don't really know if we're talking about the same person anymore? In fact, it's fairly clear to me that it's not the same guy. And who's that guy in the Bible? It's been very confusing for me, but I'm just curious, how do you even open up to think about those questions and kind of the topics?Speaker 2 (02:51):Yeah, I mean, I resonate with the confusion and definitely feel that too. And I think it's one of those things where when I try to pull it apart and get some footing on where I'm at and what I think about it, it is hard to know where to start. Even your words about, okay, Fox News came out, my dad's watching this. I'm watching this. I'm a little confused, but also not quite sure what to make of it or how to even approach the dissonance that I'm experiencing. It goes back so far and so in the air water that it feels hard to disentangle. But I mean, I'm with you and feel so much of that same confusion. And I think even being in a red state, very red state, very conservative, very evangelical area, it's almost as if the Jesus and the political views are not for many.(04:09):And I am sure this is not limited to this area, but one of the things I experienced is it's not even, you can't even question, you can't even ask the question, the question of, wait, what's actually happening here? What is someone who actually has a degree in history in Middle Eastern politics? You can't even ask those questions because those questions are a sign that you're doubting or that you've moved to the other side. And so there's such a blindness, and if you go away from us, you're wrong. So much fear. And to pull Jesus apart from that, it very much does feel like a different, we're talking about a different Jesus, which is super disorienting, right? Because we might use the same verses or verses from the same Bible or we celebrate the same holidays, or it feels very disorienting and very confusing.Speaker 1 (05:21):Yeah. I think this idea that Jesus was about love or is something of love, that he was defiant towards religious Pharisees and the people that were persecuting others in the name of religion, it's very interesting then to see one part of my family feel like they're being persecuted and in response to that persecution, they're asking for a king. Or maybe the thing that came to me was the crowd chanting when Jesus was getting ready to be crucified. And the crowd, they're like, the Romans are like, well, who do you want? And they're like, of course we want Barbi. We want the insurrectionist. We want the murderer, the cheater. That's the person we want. Let's kill Jesus. I'm not equating our political figures to Jesus and Barbi, but the idea that we will take even hearkening back to the Old Testament times that we'll take, we need a king, give us a king that somehow the politics, we need politics to save us that Jesus isn't enough anymore. And I don't know when that kind of gets mixed together, the power almost becomes unbearable to fight against, especially if you're on your own.Speaker 2 (06:40):Yeah. Yes. I was actually thinking about this morning how much I think, and I don't know enough about international politics to speak to anything outside of the us, but it feels like our spirituality, especially within the evangelical church in the US, has gotten. So I, I don't know that I would necessarily call myself an evangelical anymore, but that body, which carries a lot of weight, a lot of numbers, a lot of passion in our country, the spirituality has been so fused with politics that it does feel like we need a certain political movement to save us. And I think that could be said on the other side too, in some ways, and I guess in my own, as I've tried to parse out where am I at, where is my spirituality, politics are important, and I feel that we need to vote in line with how we feel, where we find ourselves in terms of our spirituality. And yet Jesus is the rescuer, not a certain political party. And what does that mean? I don't even know how to exist in the midst of where we're at today with that being true, and then it feels so hard to pull apart.Speaker 1 (08:23):Yeah, I mean, for me, I know it hearkens back to so many other places in my life, I've felt powerless against a huge system, or I think specifically in churches where the goal is to has often, well, my experience or the churches that I've been in, the goal has been to preserve the power of a particular pastor or a particular set of pastors and to shield them from any consequences of any ways they might act in the community or individually one-on-one for instance with women. And then I've had the feeling in these circumstances where I just have to take it. I have to take it. I have to move on. I have to accept that God works in this way, that all things work together for good. And that's the same feeling I have right now post-election, that feeling like, okay, this is what's meant to be. This is what God has ordained. You should just take it. And I'm having that similar feeling,Speaker 2 (09:32):Which is not right. That's not, of course, I mean, I'm resonating with what you're saying and feel that deeply, and that is a deep part of my story as well. And of course our bodies go to that. Our bodies are going to go to that story of, okay, this is how we function in the midst of this powerlessness of being within this system or up against this thing that we don't have any, what's a response to it? It feels insurmountable. So yeah, there's so much in me that's like, okay, God's still in control, but even though that feels very familiar in my body, I think as I've done work, and it also doesn't like no, no, something in me is saying, no, no, no, that's not, can't just kind of in a Christian coded scripture, coded way, settle and be okay with what is happening, even though I don't know what to do in a lot of ways, in the midst of that tension, I'm not settled, and I'm not that old pad answer, padded answer of, yeah, God's in control. Everything is going to be okay. Everything works for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose.(11:13):It's not settling me,Speaker 1 (11:16):Right? Because it's not the same scripture if you're white as if you're black or brown or that's true, that scripture means very different things. If you're from white majority power and you say that scripture, you might have the finances and whatnot to deal with coming or the access to educatio

https://www.philallenjr.comPhil is a man driven by vision, compelled to fulfill God’s calling on his life. His passion is not only to see individuals come to know and grow in a relationship with Jesus, but to see social transformation that includes addressing systems and structures that affect the everyday lives of people, especially those typically pushed to the margins because of oppression, injustices, and inequities grounded in race, gender, sexuality, ability, age, and any part of their being that does not fit the dominant group membership.As an All-American high school basketball player, Phil attended North Carolina A&T University to play basketball and study architectural engineering. Upon his call to ministry years later, he went on to receive his Bachelors in Theological Studies, with an emphasis in Christian Ministries from The King’s University. While working as a full-time lead pastor of Own Your Faith Ministries (Santa Clarita, CA), Phil completed a Master of Arts in Theology degree from Fuller Theological Seminary, studying Christian Ethics. As a current PhD candidate in Christian Ethics, with a minor in Theology and Culture, his research involves race theory, theology, ethics, culture, and the theology and ethics of Martin Luther King, Jr.He is founder of the non-profit organization Racial Solidarity Project based in Los Angeles, CA. His passion for dialogue, resistance, and solutions to the problem of systemic racism was fostered by his family and personal life experiences as well as his educational journey. Phil was recently named a Pannell Center for Black Church Studies Fellow at Fuller Theological Seminary. As a fellow his research on Black Church theology, liturgy, and ethics further undergirds his own ethics of justice, healing racial trauma, and racial solidarity. He has taught undergraduate classes on biblical ethics toward racial solidarity. His fields of interest include Christian ethics, Black Church studies, race theory, pneumatology, theology of justice and theology of play and sport.When he isn’t pastoring, studying, or writing, Phil enjoys running, bowling, basketball, and just watching his favorite television shows. As an all-around creative, he is an author, a teacher, pastor, filmmaker (see his documentary Open Wounds), but first a poet. His diverse experiences and interests have gifted him with the ability to relate to and inspire just about anyone he meets.He is the author of two books, Open Wounds: A Story of Racial Tragedy, Trauma, and Redemption (Fortress Press, 2021) and The Prophetic Lens: The Camera and Black Moral Agency From MLK to Darnella Frazier (Fortress Press, 2022).Speaker 1 (00:13):Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and the church. And tune in and listen to this conversation today. Dr. Phil Allen, Jr and myself are going to have a conversation today. And if you go to his website, phil allen jr.com, you can see that his quote is Justice Matters, my neighbors Matter, creation matters, faith Matters. And really in this conversation, I want you to pay attention to those points that he makes in this quote from his website and how that filters through in the research he does in the point of view he's bringing to the table for this conversation on what are we doing? And I think a lot of people are like, are we still talking about the Yes, we're still talking about it. Yes. It's still relevant and we're talking about it because from understanding creates pathways towards action, towards organizing, towards being together with one another in community so that we can support justice, so that we can support our neighbors so that we have faith in creator. And so I want to encourage you to listen through that lens. Go find his website, phil allen jr.com. Look up this amazing man, this professor, he's got a podcast, he's got books, poetry speaking, a documentary. Don't hesitate to reach out, but as you listen, focusing on justice Neighbor and creation and Faith.(01:48):Yeah. What has it been like for you since the election? Or what's that been likeSpeaker 2 (01:57):Since the election? The first couple of days were, I was a bit numb. I was very disappointed in 2016. I wasn't surprised. I had this feeling that he was going to win, even though people thought Hillary would win. I just didn't have the confidence in those battleground swing state. I thought he represented something that a lot of people in this country are drawn to. And this year I really felt like she was going to win. Vice President Harris was going to win because of the coalition, because of the momentum. People can critique and criticize her campaign, but there's nothing orthodox about starting a hundred days before. And I think what they did was calculated. I won't say perfect, but it was good. It was a solid campaign given what she had to work with. And I really thought she would win. And I was just extremely disappointed. It was like this heaviness over me, but then after day two, things started to feel a little bit lighter. I just put things in perspective. I wasn't going to sulk and sit in some sadness because this man won. I think I was more disappointed in the people like what is our standard, particularly Christians, conservative Christians, what is the standard now? How low is the bar?(04:04):And honestly, I don't know if there's anyone else on the planet, any other demographic that could have done that with 34 felonies saying the things that he says about people of color, about women, about veterans. I mean, he just literally does not care. There's no man or woman of color. There's no woman, there's no one else that could do that. And people would ignore everything, do theological gymnastics and to justify everything and still vote for 'em. No one else could pull it off. And I think for me, it just solidified the type of country we live in. So I'm good now, as good as I can be. I can't change it, so I'm not going to sulk and be sad. I'm going to continue to do the work that God has called me to do and continue to chat, put a video out. I think you may have seen it on social media just to put my thoughts out there, put words to my feelings and just move forward. Yep.Speaker 1 (05:24):When you think about, is it okay if I ask you a couple of questions?Speaker 3 (05:28):Yeah.Speaker 1 (05:29):When you think about your research and completing your PhD and the theory and work and the evidence and structures you uncovered in that research, then how does that continue to frame your outlook for where we are today? ItSpeaker 2 (05:52):Couldn't, this election was interesting. This election confirmed for me, my research,Speaker 1 (05:59):Yes.Speaker 2 (06:02):I'll give you one part of it. In my research I talk about the plantation complex and it's made up of three major categories and there are subcategories under each one, organizing properties, modes of power, and operating practices. Three major categories Under organizing properties, there are four properties I list. I'm not saying it's an exhaustive list. Someone else might come in and want to tweak it and change it. That's fine. What I came up with is for vision covenant, spatial arrangement and epistemology, and specifically theological scientific epistemology, specifically white racial covenant. For those two, those are the specific terms I use. And to me, vice President Harris asked a question, this is about what kind of country do we want? That's a statement about what kind of vision do you have? Would you like to see this country embody? So vision is always there. We're always talking about, we're always casting vision when we tell stories, when we talk about how we want the, whether it's the education system, immigration, whatever. We're casting a vision, but what do we want to see? And then that ends up driving so much of what weSpeaker 3 (07:45):Do.Speaker 2 (07:48):We have the vision now of this is what America wants.Speaker 1 (07:52):Yes,Speaker 2 (07:54):They want this man with all, he's not just a flawed human being, in my opinion. He's a vile human being. She also is not a perfect candidate. She's a decent woman. She's a decent person. Two vastly different visions for this country. Then you talk about spatial arrangement. Electoral college is about spatial arrangement. You have your blue states, your red states, but everything comes down to five or six. Sometimes one state decides the election, and it all depends on who's living in that state, how are the districts redrawn. All types of stuff can play out. But to me, I saw that going on and then I saw white racial covenant play out. You look at who voted for who, percentage wise, and I kept seeing this allegiance, this covenant with Donald Trump, and there had to have been independents and even some Democrats that voted for him to have voted at such a high clip when his base is only 37%, 40% at most, and a Republican party is half. And he gets, I don't know. I just started to see those things play out. And from my dissertation, just those four categories, the stuff that we don't even pay attention to, they shape society, vision, spatial arrangement, covenant whose allegiance, who has your allegiance, because that drives decision making that drives what you value. It influences what you value. And epistemology, theological, scientific epistemology, he's the chosen one.(10:03):God chose him for such a time as the, I keep hearing this language. So they're using theological language to justify everything about this man. So yeah.Speaker 1 (10:18):Yeah.Speaker 2 (10:19):It's hard for me not to see through that lens. Now that I spent six years researching it, it's hard for me not to see through those lenses the lens of power, how power is operating, what type of power is operating and the practices and all that stuff.Speaker 1 (10:38):There's so much you said that I know we could jump into. Particularly when you talk about the white racial covenant. I was s

Trigger Warning: Proceed only if you are comfortable with potentially sensitive topics.This is not psychological advice, service, or prescriptive treatment for anxiety or depression. The content related to descriptions of depression, anxiety, or despair may be upsetting or triggering, but are clearly not exhaustive. If you should feel symptoms of depression and/or anxiety, please seek professional mental health services, or contact (in Kitsap County) Kitsap Mobile Crisis Team at  1-888-910-0416. The line is staffed by professionals who are trained to determine the level of crisis services needed. Depending on the need, this may include dispatching the KMHS Mobile Crisis Outreach Team for emergency assessment. In the Words and Voice of Rebecca W. Walston:Anticipatory intelligence  is a phrase that I heard at a seminar talking about racial trauma. The speaker whose name I can't remember, was talking about this idea of a kind of intelligence that is often developed by marginalized people. And because this was a seminar on racial trauma in the United States, her examples were all primarily around racialized experiences as the United States understand that sense of racialized society. And so the idea of anticipatory intelligence is the amount of effort or energy that we put in emotionally, mentally, psychologically, to anticipating how our bodies and the stories that they represent will be received in a space that we are in before we get there.Speaker 1 (00:18):Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and spirituality. In this episode, I get to interview my dear friend, Rebecca Wheeler Walston, and we are talking about anticipatory intelligence. I think all of us, or at least most of the people I speak with lately when I'm like, how are you doing? They're like, and they're like, well, that's a complicated answer. And it definitely is. There's an underlying sense of unease, of discontent, of just a lack of surety, about what is going to come next in the new year that I think I haven't felt for a long time. The collective sense that I have right now as you listen to this episode and take a sneak peek into some of the conversations Rebecca and I have had for a while, I encourage you to be kind to your body Again. I've put in previous episodes, resources, get out, get mental health care, spend time with friends, play, go play pickleball, get out in the snow, read a good book, text a friend, call a friend.(01:37):Do the things that connect you back to life giving activities. Find your spiritual practices, light candles, take a bath. All these things that therapists often say are helpful. I mean, maybe it's you go hug a tree or put your feet, your literal bare feet in the dirt. I don't know what it is for you, but leaning on the people and the resources in your area and also leaning on things that connect you back to groundedness, to feeling in your body. And so those are the things that I do. I enjoy lately eating Honey Nut Cheerios. Sounds weird. I love Dry Honey Nut Cheerios. I don't know why, but I let myself indulge in that. So again, I'm not prescribing anything to anyone. This is not a prescription, a diagnosis, a treatment plan. It is saying, how can you find ways to ground yourself in really good healthy ways that you can actually care for your good body?(02:50):I don't enjoy talking about anxiety. I don't love it. In fact, talking about it sometimes I feel really anxious in the moment my heart starts pounding, I get sweaty hands, et cetera. And yet there is something grounding for me about stepping into shared realities with my friends or neighbor, colleague or family. And so this is a reality that Rebecca and I have been talking about. What is anticipatory intelligence? And I'm going to let her jump in and start it off here. Hey, Rebecca, I know you and I chat a lot, and part of our talks are like, Hey, how you doing? Hey, how am I doing? And a while back when I reached out to you and said, Hey, let's do this thing way before the election on anxiety and race. And you're like, wait a minute. I want to talk about this thing called anticipatory intelligence. And so I want to hear about that from you. What is that?Speaker 2 (03:51):Hey, Danielle, as always, Hey, hey,(03:56):Post 2024 election, I'm going to just take a huge breath and say that I've had this low grade sort of nausea in my gut for at least a week, if not longer. So yeah, let's talk. So anticipatory intelligence is a phrase that I heard at a seminar talking about racial trauma. The speaker whose name I can't remember, was talking about this idea of a kind of intelligence that is often developed by marginalized people. And because this was a seminar on racial trauma in the United States, her examples were all primarily around racialized experiences as the United States understand that sense of racialized society. And so the idea of anticipatory intelligence is the amount of effort or energy that we put in emotionally, mentally, psychologically, to anticipating how our bodies and the stories that they represent will be received in a space that we are in before we get there.(05:23):So it's that notion of I'm a black woman, I'm getting ready to go to a function that I anticipate will likely be predominantly white. And the kind of internal conversation I have with myself about what that's going to feel like look like to enter the question in my mind of how safe or how dangerous might the environment be to me racially? So the first piece of anticipatory intelligence is that sort of internal conversation that we may be having with ourselves as we step into a circumstance. The second piece of that is when we arrive in the space and we start to read the room,(06:12):Read the faces of the people in the room, and this work of how close was my hypothesis or my theory about my reception in the room to what I'm actually seeing and feeling and hearing in the room as I enter the space is that sort of second piece of anticipatory intelligence. And then the third piece of it is really this question of how do I navigate that answers to those first two questions? And so what is my body, my brain, my emotions, my spirit, my gut, all of it doing with what I'm reading of the faces in the room and the reaction to me being there could be a positive space. I could get there and realize that the people in the room are all receptive to my presence and what I'm reading and feeling is a sense of welcome and warmth and an invitation for all of me to be in the room. And then what does that feel like in terms of the letdown of anxiety and the ability to absorb that sense of welcome and to participate in that sense of welcome? Or it could be a hostile environment. And what I'm reading is something that isn't welcome,(07:44):Something that feels like fill in the blank, resentment, who knows?(07:53):And then what does my body do with that? What does my gut do with that? What does my emotions, what does my spirit do? And how do I react and respond to what I'm actually reading in the room? So you can hear that sense of three steps, and sometimes that can happen over a matter of days, weeks as we build up to something. Sometimes that can happen in a matter of seconds as we enter a room, but the amount of effort and energy that is expended and the idea that you can actually develop a very well thought through grid for this as a kind of intelligence that can be yours individually might belong to your group. Collectively idea of how we anticipate and then how we engage a space based on and in this race, it could be extended to gender,Speaker 3 (08:58):ReligionSpeaker 2 (09:00):In this day and age, probably politics and any other places where we find intersectionality of the pieces of our identity.Speaker 1 (09:11):I had to take a deep breath because it is this giant reframing and pathologizing of what a lot of us walk around with, which is an internal disruption as we move from space to space.Speaker 2 (09:29):Yeah, I think that's true. And I mean, I think about it as a black woman, as a black mother raising two kids, I have taught my kids this notion of, I didn't call it that there's too many syllables and SAT words, but I have taught my kids a sense of pay attention to people and places and sounds and vibes and nonverbal communication and verbal communication and learn to interpret and decipher and then do what is necessary to keep yourself safe and do what is necessary to enjoy and participate in places where you're actually welcome.Speaker 1 (10:17):When that intersects with the concepts of Western psychology, let's say, where we're as a part of that system, there's this constant move to how do we heal anxiety, how do we work towards calm? How do we work towards finding a quote safe space? And I think it's becoming more and more evident in our current society. It's evident to many before, but I think some people are jostled into the reality that there might not be that safe space or you might have to understand anxiety differently than the western psychological framework. Have you thought about that?Speaker 2 (11:04):Yeah. I mean, couple of things, right? Is that in western sort of psychological space, the phrase that's usually engaged is something called hypervigilant. This idea that the time you spend reading a room and your sense of threat and the need to be vigilant about your own safety, the concept of hypervigilance is to say that you're overreactingSpeaker 3 (11:36):ToSpeaker 2 (11:37):The space and you have a kind of vigilance that is unnecessary. You have a kind of vigilance that is a trigger to some threat that doesn't actually exist. And therefore you as the person who is doing this anticipatory work, needs to rea acclimate to the room and engage the room as if you are safe and to reimagine or recalibrate your sense of threat to an idea that it doesn't exist and it's not there. And one of the things that I would pose is that's a false realit

Matthias Roberts is a queer  psychotherapist (in Washington State) and the author of both "Holy Runaways:Rediscovering Faith After Being Burned by Religion" and "Beyond Shame: Creating a Healthy Sex Life on Your Own Terms". He is one of my favorite friends I met in graduate school, a human deeply committed to connection and curiosity,  and someone who I deeply admire. With Matthias, I feel a sense of belonging and openness to understanding the world and holding space for that curiosity which is so threatening elsewhere. Rebecca W. Walston is an African American lawyer, who also holds a MA Counseling, an all around boss babe. Rebecca runs a Law Practice and serves as General Legal Counsel for The Impact Movement, Inc.  She is someone who fiercely advocates for others freedom and healing. She is a dear friend and colleague, who anyone would be lucky to spend a dinner with talking about almost anything.Trigger Warning: Proceed only if you are comfortable with potentially sensitive topics.This is not psychological advice, service, or prescriptive treatment for anxiety or depression. The content related to descriptions of depression, anxiety, or despair may be upsetting or triggering, but are clearly not exhaustive. If you should feel symptoms of depression and/or anxiety, please seek professional mental health services, or contact (in Kitsap County) Kitsap Mobile Crisis Team at  1-888-910-0416. The line is staffed by professionals who are trained to determine the level of crisis services needed. Depending on the need, this may include dispatching the KMHS Mobile Crisis Outreach Team for emergency assessment. Speaker 1 (00:18):Welcome to the Rise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and spirituality. Today we're continuing our conversation on election humanity and politics. I have two guests today. I'm very excited about it. Matthias Roberts, who's a queer psychotherapist in Washington State, and the author of both Holy Runaways and Beyond Shame. Actually, he's one of my favorite friends I met in graduate school. I don't know if he knows that he's a human, deeply committed to connection and curiosity and someone I deeply admire with Matthias. I've always felt this sense of belonging and openness to understanding the world and holding space for that actual curiosity, which has seems so threatening elsewhere. So I want to thank Matthias for joining me and taking time out of his morning. And Rebecca Wheeler Walstead holds an MA in counseling an all around boss babe. Rebecca runs a law practice and serves as general legal counsel for the Impact movement, and she is someone who fiercely advocates for others freedom and healing. She's a dear friend, obviously she's a colleague and she's someone that anybody would be lucky to spend a dinner with talking about almost anything. So thank you, Rebecca, for joining me today.(01:40):I can say that for myself in my own experience, my anxiety is heightened overall and feelings that I can keep at bay with regular normal coping mechanisms such as exercise. It takes to me a little bit more and I have to offer myself a lot more grace in the process. I encourage you no matter where you are, to engage these topics with grace towards your own self, towards your neighbor, towards your family, and towards whoever's in your proximity. We won't get things done overnight no matter who we are, and we will get them done if we become more aligned and care more for those in our proximity, that means our neighbor. So if you're feeling or experiencing anxiety around the election or family or other triggers, I want you to encourage you to seek out and find someone to speak with. Maybe you need a mental health professional, maybe you need a spiritual advisor. Maybe it's your coach and it's something related to business. Maybe you need to go see your doctor for aches and pains you've been having. I don't know what it might be for you, but don't hesitate to reach out and get the help you need. We're going to jump into the conversation and voices from across the country. We are all different and we're not meant to be the same. I hope you find pieces of you in each of their stories. Hey, Rebecca. Hey, Matthias. Thanks for being with me today.Speaker 2 (03:06):Daniel, thanks for havingSpeaker 1 (03:07):Us. I just thought we would talk about this really amazing subject of politics and humanness because we're so good at it in the United States. Yeah, right. Y'all thoughts on that? Even as I say that, just politics and being human, what comes to mind?Speaker 2 (03:34):For me, there's almost a dual process happening. I think about my first thought was, well, politics are, but then I also thought about how when we separate institutions out from people, especially in the way that corporations tend to separate out how they become anti-human so quickly, and not that politics is necessarily a corporation, but I think there's a form of it. There's something corporate about it. And so I think about that juxtaposition and maybe the dichotomy there between, yeah, it's human, but I think it's also anti-human in the ways that it has to, I think almost by definition, separate from maybe these places of deep feeling or nuance in order to collapse all of that experience into something that people can rally on.Speaker 3 (04:51):I think there's something dehumanizing about our current politics, but I think that that is about power. I think when politics becomes about the consolidation of power or the perpetuation of power or the hanging on to it sort of desperately, then it no longer is about the people that the institutions and the country was built to serve and protect. And so I think there are all these ideals in our politics that on paper and in theory sound amazing, but when people in their humanness or maybe in the worst of our humanness step away from other people and not just people as sort of this collective generalized, but the actual person in front of you, the actual person in front of you and the story that they have and the life that they live, and how decisions and theories and ideals will impact the actual person in front of you. And when politics becomes about collecting power and maintaining that power at all costs, then it's no longer about people. It's no longer about lives. It's no longer about stories, and all those things become expendable in the name of the consolidation and the maintenance of power. And I think that at its heart is a human question. It's a question of selfishness and self-serving and maybe even self idolatry.Speaker 1 (06:49):I think that I agree, Matthias, I've been thinking a lot about, because in my family it's been a lot of comments like, well, we shouldn't talk about politics because we're family. I'm like, wait a minute, wait just a minute. Because the very politic that is being said from one angle is hurting the humanity of this other particular family member. How do we make sense of that? How do we say politics isn't a very human, the impact is meant to impact humans. The power is meant to impact humans, so the political sphere has become so toxic to us.Speaker 3 (07:40):Yeah, I think that sentence, we shouldn't talk about politics because we're family. It says more about maybe our fragility as a culture in this moment and our inability to have hard conversations without feeling like the difficulty of them fractures, relationships and familial bonds in ways that cannot be repaired or restored in any way. And I think it is also a statement about the toxicity of our politics that we have allowed it to get to a place where it actually threatens those kinds of familial bonds in some sense, you want go back to, you remember that book that was big in the nineties? All I ever learned about life I learned in kindergarten, right? All I ever needed to know, it reminds me of that because raising kids, I would raise my kids to say, there isn't anything on this earth that should fracture your bond as siblings. I raised them to believe that. I insisted that they engage the world from this vantage point that come hell or high water do or die is you and your sister. That's it. And it doesn't matter what happens in this world, there should never be a scenario in which that isn't true. And we have arrived at this place where people honestly believe that your political affiliation somehow threatens that.(09:19):That's sad and sad feels like a word that's not heavy enough to articulate. There's something wrong, really wrong if that's where we are,Speaker 2 (09:35):I think it speaks perhaps to our inability to do conflict well, and I'm the first, I don't do this all with my family at all. I'm terrible at conflict with my family, at least in the arena of politics. But I think about, I wonder if some of the fracturing that we say, I don't think it's all of it by any means, but is that reality of, because we can't have these conversations in our immediate family, it's getting projected into the wider, I mean, it has to play out somewhat. It is going to, that's the nature of it. So because we can't do it locally, it is having to play out on this grand scale. Rebecca, as you said, sad. I think it's horrifying too.Speaker 1 (10:44):It's what?Speaker 2 (10:45):Horrifying.Speaker 1 (10:46):Yes. It's very dangerous to be honest.Speaker 2 (10:54):It's very, yeah, those bonds, we have the familial bonds. Those are protective in some ways when we remove that, we remove those protections.Speaker 1 (11:11):I think we've been practicing at a society, and I'm talking particularly about the United States at ways of removing those bonds in multiple spheres of the way we've thought about life, the way we think about another person, the way we judge each other, the way we vote in past elections. I mean, the civil rights movement is pushing against that notion that family means dehumanizing someone else. And so even this idea of, I'm not even sure if I can say it right, but just how we've constru

Trigger Warning: Proceed only if you are comfortable with potentially sensitive topics.This is not psychological advice, service, or prescriptive treatment for anxiety or depression. The content related to descriptions of depression, anxiety, or despair may be upsetting or triggering, but are clearly not exhaustive. If you should feel symptoms of depression and/or anxiety, please seek professional mental health services, or contact (in Kitsap County) Kitsap Mobile Crisis Team at  1-888-910-0416. The line is staffed by professionals who are trained to determine the level of crisis services needed. Depending on the need, this may include dispatching the KMHS Mobile Crisis Outreach Team for emergency assessment. Danielle  (00:26):Welcome to the Rise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and spirituality. This is a part two of our season five opener, which was review and recap of the past year, and also engaging some questions around humanity, the election, and how do we see our neighbor? We are going to be hearing from a couple of organizers who have been in my county, Kitsap County for more than a decade. You're going to hear some of their experiences, some of what they've gone through, as well as a few other folks who are giving their response to the questions we posed last week. I've been doing a lot of listening. This isn't an endorsement for any candidate. This isn't a psychological advice, and this isn't a prescription for how you should vote. Voting is a right. It's something we can participate in. It's a way to participate in our system.  A lot of folks are swinging wildly between two pendulums. There's the thought of my vote doesn't matter and I'm not going to vote, or I'm going to vote for X person as a protest vote. These are all of your rights. You have the right to do. So. I've been thinking a lot about change and what does change mean? How do we want to see change come about, and what does long-term change really look like? I can't speak from an electoral politics standpoint because I'm not an elected official and I don't plan to be anytime soon. I can speak as a person, a mother, a wife, a partner, a colleague, a friend, and a community member. And what I can say is people powered movements are what I have seen from the ground up, bring change in communities. This isn't unlike what happens in our bodies from a psychological experience in my own body. Change doesn't come from merely thinking about it. It comes from the ground up in my body. It comes from addressing the feelings, paying attention to my body, and becoming a more integrated person. I would challenge all of us to look around and what are the people powered movements for social change that we desire, and what are the ways our body is talking to us and how if we listen, will it inform us where we stand on many of these different issues?  This brings me to another sensitive topic. The topic of how we are feeling, how we are doing in the sociopolitical climate. We're living in these United States. I can say that for myself in my own experience, my anxiety is heightened overall and feelings that I can keep at bay with regular normal coping mechanisms such as exercise. It takes me a little bit more and I have to offer myself a lot more grace in the process. I encourage you no matter where you are, to engage these topics with grace towards your own self, towards your neighbor, towards your family, and towards whoever's in your proximity. We won't get things done overnight. That's not how change works. Change is a process. It is for us as individuals, and it is for us as a collective society. So hang in there. If you need help, get the help you need.  Maybe it's a mental health counselor, maybe it's a spiritual advisor. Maybe it's your pastor, maybe it's your friend. Maybe it's someone in your community that you look up to, like a mentor, or maybe you just need to sit down with your friends and have a good old fashioned dinner and drinks and put your phones away. Whatever the help you need is, it's important that you seek out that help and that support. The goal isn't to be perfect. It isn't to be fixed. The goal is to be in our process and getting what we need so each day we can show up for ourselves and those in our community. We're going to jump into the conversation and voices from across the country. We are all different and we're not meant to be the same. I hope you find pieces of you in each of their stories.  Speaker 2 (04:37):Hi, this is Raquel Jarek and I'm coming to you from Bloomington, Minnesota, which is a suburb in the Minneapolis area. I teach astronomy for work to college students in downtown Minneapolis and am an aerospace engineer and was raised in a very Christian home. And I'm still a practicing Christian in many ways, and I make space for people with different political views in all kinds of moments in my life. I do it at my work with students because I have a variety of people in my classes. I'm actually challenging them to vote and to even investigate the two major political candidates for president on what they view of science and space and how they would support NASA or space exploration. And I get to know my students pretty well in person, especially not as much with my online students, but I want to make space and have a comfortable room where people can share a little bit of how they feel, but also not be offensive to people with a variety of opinions in the room.  Speaker 2 (05:44):And then there's a variety of opinions in my family on my side of the family and my in-laws and which candidates they support and which parties they affiliate with. I want to be a person who is about supporting different opinions and being able to be loving and welcoming to anyone in any opinion. And sometimes that can be difficult when people have conflicting views in the room. I think you might need to keep the conversation more surface level and fun and in smaller conversations maybe you can dive into what they think more. But that can be really challenging to go deep with people who are very opposite opinions. At the same time, I like to have challenging conversations about politics and religion, and I think being open to those conversations whenever those topics come up is good. And then also just remember to be kind. And I think that's definitely easier to do in person than online or in a social media space, but that face-to-face contact does bring out more humanity and more kindness in people. So I hope that helps and that people can make more time and space to treat others kindly and hear opinions. Thanks.  Danielle (07:04):What were you going to say about the election?  Sarah  (07:08):Oh, I'm just feeling stressed about how close this election is. And it's just sort of extraordinary to me that given the many, many flaws in the Trump offering that people would still vote for him, that he's clearly mentally impaired and authoritarian, happy with dictators, mean-spirited and more of a mafia boss than a presidential candidate. And it's just extraordinary to me that, and I've always known people like that existed. It's just extraordinary to me that so many people would be planning to vote for him. So I am feeling a little stressed this morning,  Speaker 1 (07:55):Pam, I saw you nod your head.  Speaker 4 (07:58):Oh, I agree with everything that Sarah said. I have the same I deep, deep apprehensions and anxiety, and I think we're living in a landscape of anxiety just on the edge of a nation that at least half of it wants to go over that edge and pull the other half down with them. And it's really frightening. It's real. And I think I'm also frightened by people who are putting their heads in the sand. That's their response either out of just inconvenience or their terror response. So we're in a situation,  Speaker 1 (09:04):I agree. I feel that. I feel it come out in so many different ways. So for instance, as a licensed mental health therapist, something gets said like it was this last week where the former president is at a rally comments on anatomy. It gets blasted across the airwaves. And then what I notice that happens across my workspace is that people are triggered in their family relationships. They're triggered in with community. They're on heightened alert with a neighbor. I noticed this is last week we had two different really random requests. One was to adjust our fence because of the view. And if you know my yard, I live way out in the country, no one's looking. The second thing that happened to us was like, your car is parked at an odd angle sort of thing. So can we switch it around? I wasn't home. I got the message. And immediately when the message popped up, I felt so much anxiety and I was trying to talk myself off the ledge. I'm like, you can move this car, Danielle, when you go home, you can move this. This is fixable. You can come back from this. But the way I understand it is there's all my cup of navigating anxiety and uncertainties already up to here. So if my car's crooked somewhere, I'm freaking out.  Speaker 4 (10:44):I think that's happening all over the place. I mean, we saw an example yesterday afternoon with that involved pizza and chicken and people being much deeper issues and wounds being triggered by that, and we just have to take care of each other. I think we really, my priority is number one for the foreseeable future is public safety and how do we take care of each other when a lot of us can't call the people in the system that are supposed to give us support when they're not there, or they are part of what is creating problems and cruelty and insensitivity. So I mean, that's the only thing that's on my mind right now is public safety.  Speaker 1 (12:16):Sarah, thank you, Pam. Sarah, what comes to mind? We're kind of discussing the nature of political dialogue in our current climate. What do you see at stake if we do not vote?  Speaker 3 (12:31):Yeah, so that's what I've been thi

  Contributors are listed here: Danielle S. Castillejo (Rueb), Cyon Edgerton, Rachael Reese, Chasity Malatesta, Debby Haase, Kim Frasier, Briana Cardenas, Holly Christy, Clare Menard, Marjorie Long, Cristi McCorkle, Terri Schumaker, Diana Frazier, Eliza Cortes Bast, Tracy Johnson, Sarah Van Gelder, Marwan, and more Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and spirituality. You'll notice there's going to be some updated changes and different voices on the podcast this season. It's season five. It's October 1st, 2024. I haven't recorded a podcast since June of 2023, and at that time, if you've been following along in my town in Kitsap County, we were working through what would prove to be an extensive and prove to be an extensive fight for justice in our school district. And at this time, we have made some very significant shifts. I want to get into this episode to kind of catch you up on where I'm at, where the podcast is at, and hopefully as you listen to myself and some different voices on these upcoming podcasts, you understand that we have this fundamental common theme amongst us, which is our humanity. And when we drop down into that humanity, because our work, our lives, our families, there's all these poles and all these different ways for us to separate ourselves from our humanness and be busy or accomplish this or accomplish that.(00:01:52):And I know because I'm in there too, we actually separate ourselves from our neighbor. And so I'm hoping as we engage tough topics of politics and we get into the sticky points of it, that there's a sense that, yeah, I don't agree with that person or I agree with that person, but there is a sense that there is shared humanity. And so as we talk about these different subjects, I wanted to emphasize that first, an article was released in the fall last year saying in September of 2023 saying that there was, the school district's investigation had concluded and they had deemed that there was no racism in the North Kitsap School district. As you can imagine, a report like that on the front page of the paper, after all we'd been through after sitting through numerous hours of meetings listening to families and their experiences was disheartening.(00:02:45):We came to find out that some of the families felt or experienced what they deemed to be threatening tones from the investigators or understood that they could possibly be under penalty of perjury depending on what they answered. And I'm not saying that this was always the case, but the threat was on the table. And when you're dealing with working with majority world peoples who are marginalized in the United States, that threat can be very real. And the impact of it is very great. So I began to understand that this investigation wasn't actually looking for the truth and how to solve the problem. It was actually looking for a way of complete and utter defense against what these families had reported their students had experienced. It's a very different thing. And I think there were rumors like were these families going to sue the district, bring a lawsuit to the district?(00:03:41):And we've seen in neighboring school districts, just in recent times, lawsuits have been filed for much less. I mean, we had 90 original complaints. We have more people that had come forward as time had moved on. And yet there was never a move to actually file a lawsuit. We didn't file a lawsuit. We continued to move forward with our lives and think about our students. I think at some point in last fall of 2023, there was just a sense of deep despair like we put in years of effort. And the result was this report that basically attempted to delegitimize all the stories of all these families. It was horrible and heartbreaking and followed the fall. And in the late winter there was going to be a vote for this school bond. And as the yes for the bond campaign rolled out, led by a committee of yes folks, which included some Paul's Bowl rotary members and then the superintendent, it became clear to different community members that there were a lot of questions still to be asked, a lot of information we wanted to have and a lot of things that just felt like they were missing.(00:04:57):I'm not saying they were all missing, but there were pieces and details that appeared to be missing. And when we asked the questions similar to what happened with the complaints, we didn't get answers. The answers were couched in long paragraphs or explanations, and the architects seemed like they didn't have access to the buildings. Again, we didn't know all the details of what happened. And this is just a general recap. You can look at the ensuing political drama online. If you Google superintendent signs and polls Bowl, Washington, P-O-U-L-S-B-O Washington, you will find articles on NBC to Fox News to video clips, all of the above. There were signs all over our county, as I'm sure in your different counties or if you live in Kitsap, you've seen them political signs, vote yes on the bond, vote no on the bond, et cetera. And it appeared that signs were going missing.(00:06:02):And in one case, the signs were going missing often in one particular location and a pair of folks who are not married who became allied because they were both against the bond and had been putting up no on bond signs, decided to put up a wildlife cam and we're able to capture a person destroying the signs on video. And again, Google sbo, Google signs, Google Superintendent look for February 20, 24 articles and you'll see the ensuing reports of what happened. This became a chance for us actually to revisit our story because there's a theme of dishonesty from the top leadership. There was a theme of hiding. There's a theme of not giving all the information a theme of there's any extent we can go to that bumps up against the law. By the way, I think it's against the law to destroy political signs. So there's just this theme that you could break the law and get away with it.(00:07:08):We've seen in the top politics of our country down to the low level politics of our country. And what was our community going to do with all of this? We rallied together. For the first time in many years, there were literally hundreds of people on a zoom call for a school board meeting. News agencies showed up again, and sadly, our district was in the news for something else negative related to the top leadership. And it was very sad. The process. The superintendent was put on leave and resigned in June, but stopped working essentially closely with the school board. I think it was in March or April of 2024. I just remember that when the harm stops, when someone harmful is told by law enforcement or the law or someone else in a higher power to stop harming it, it's a relief. But also that's the time when all of the residual trauma sets in the trauma that you've been going through to be in proximity to someone in leadership and you're literally powerless to address it.(00:08:19):And I guess I bring this up to say that as we think about politics nationally, locally, whether it's a school board member or a president, I remember feeling challenged When I live in a small town, paulville was a small town. It is not like Seattle size. It's like got rural folks. There's folks that commute into the city of Seattle. We're, we're a mix of all different kinds of socioeconomic backgrounds. Our school district is now 38% Spanish speaking this year. There is a genuine mix. So when you're out and about in this small container, Kitsap's also very small too. It's rural, it's small. We're kind of contained on our own peninsula. When you're in this environment, the chances that you're going to see someone that you're know are really high, it's not like if you hate someone about, you're not going to run into Donald Trump here.(00:09:11):You're not going to run in here, run into Kamala Harris here. It's not like you're running into those folks, but you might run into your representative. You might run into the school board member from this district or another district. And how are you going to see that person that actually you not only disagree with, but you felt has been unjust to you? Costs a lot. I mean, money's one thing, but time, effort, family, reputation, allies, there is so much time involved and the way forward. You think it's clear when you're fighting on behalf of kids, you're advocating on behalf of kids. That feels really good. But the process to work through that advocacy often doesn't feel that great. You have to become allies with people you don't agree with. And so I think that just brings me back to where do we find our common humanity?(00:10:06):Where do we find space to occupy a same piece of land or a same meeting or a similar, we have similar causes, but maybe there's deep hurt between us and maybe that hurt is to the point where we're not going to ever talk to that person again, and how do we still see them as human? How do we still see them as valuable in this world? How do we still gain compassion? Those are things I ask myself and I don't have the answers. So I've included a number of folks asking a similar questions about humanness, about politics, about where they locate themselves in their various positions, their race, ethnicity, et cetera, and how do they come at this? And I hope you enjoy the following conversations because I conversations or talks from these people, commentary from these people as we hear all different perspectives. Now you may hear someone and be like, I can get down with that. I agree with that. And then there's another person you might be like, no way, no effing way. And so I encourage you to listen, stay curious with yourself and have talks with your family about how you're going to engage this political season.Speaker 2 (00:11:26):Danielle asked me how I see being human in the age of politics, and I'm struggling answering this because A, I am not a

 Link to Solutions article: HEREhttps://www.kitsapsun.com/story/opinion/columnists/2023/03/10/parent-group-offers-steps-toward-safety-inclusion-in-schools/69987422007/ Latino parent group presents steps toward safety, inclusion in schoolsDanielle S. CastillejoGuest columnOn February 7 community members gathered at a town hall meeting in Poulsbo to support the Latino Parent Group’s request to the North Kitsap School District (NKSD) to investigate ongoing allegations of discrimination against students. At least 125 people attended, including Kitsap ERACE Coalition, the NAACP, Suquamish Tribal Elder Barbara Lawrence, Kitsap SURJ, local business owners, teachers, Poulsbo City Council, Kitsap Public Health, Kitsap Black Student Union, Kitsap Strong, Living Life Leadership, Poulsbo for All, Kitsap Mental Health Services representatives, Central Kitsap school administrators, Bainbridge Island school administrators, Bainbridge Island's mayor and Cultural Council, and many Latino families.We are grateful we are not alone. And we express our gratitude to the North Kitsap School District for processing some 85 emailed complaints and hiring an investigator to explore and resolve these concerns.In Kitsap County, we must urgently consider practical solutions for addressing racism in education, its effects on our youth’s learning and mental health. Unaddressed racial trauma in our schools creates barriers to education, work, and mental and physical health. Our youth — all youth — are searching for ways to cope with the effects of racism, the pandemic and violence.Therefore, we must also urgently pursue healing. The North Kitsap Latino community offers the school district community-based practical solutions for forming partnerships with immigrants of other national origins, African Americans, Asian American/Pacific Islanders, and Indigenous students. Working together, we give all of our children a more inclusive society.In the words of Cesar Chavez: “We cannot seek achievement for ourselves and forget about progress and prosperity for our community. Our ambitions must be broad enough to include the aspirations and needs of others, for their sakes and for our own.”The problems the Latino community face are deeply rooted in Kitsap County’s historical racism, discrimination, and resulting harm to others who are perceived as “different.” Latino families share an important indigeneity connection with the Suquamish and Port Gamble S’Klallam Tribes, on whose ancestral lands we are guests. We are deeply grateful for these Tribes’ work and advocacy to achieve justice and healing on behalf of, not only themselves, but also many other Kitsap County communities, including ours.As committed investors in our county economically and socially, we are also deeply committed stakeholders in the education of our children. Empowering our Latino community and other communities of Color, which bear the impact of racism and discrimination, builds bridges and creates movement toward truth, healing, and reconciliation.In a story published by the Kitsap Sun last November on this issue, NKSD stated, "Students and families should feel welcome and have a sense of belonging in our schools. When there are barriers to this, it is on us to have the courageous conversations to make meaningful changes."To advance these aspirational goals, we have asked the NK School District for two things: Equal access to education for English language learners and a culture of belonging that includes educating and providing learning on nondiscrimination.We have also provided specific practical solutions:1.  An equity concern form to be provided in both English and Spanish. It may be completed by students, staff, parents or community members to report district or school equity concerns, as well as give positive feedback to the district.2. Critical communication such as student updates, school announcements, emergency messages, and counseling services will be made available in the top three languages other than English. Additionally, qualified interpreters will be made available for parents to communicate with administrators and educators at all school events.3. English-language acquisition and student supports:- English language learners will receive language support regularly, for a minimum 4 days a week, at 20 minutes a day. These students will be placed in classrooms with teachers trained in evidence-based teaching strategies while supported by administrators in their classroom needs.- The district ensures all students have access to understanding their class content and materials, in classes, such as English, math, science, music, and all electives. - English language learning will include support for speaking, listening, reading and writing skills.4. Professional development will be provided for administrators, teachers, para-professionals and any staff working with children and youth, covering these specific topics: the impact of racial trauma, understanding student needs, how to support students, mental health resources, equality, and equity.5. Paid community liaisons to provide direct support to families through advocacy, creating safety and belonging, and addressing mental health needs. Each of the following will have a liaison: African American, Asian American Pacific Islander, Latino and Indigenous communities.6. The Latino community will collaborate with the district and other community liaisons to gather and elevate the voice of their community needs to explore partnership opportunities. Then, within this partnership, they will form 2-, 3- and 5-year plans to ensure students of color and their parents are supported in their educational needs.7. An education equity council will review the equity concern forms, discuss solutions to equity concerns, implement solutions, advise the school administration and school board, and develop pathways to understanding on behalf of students and the district. These practical solutions undergird our children’s education. Along with creating a sense of belonging, the solutions build important frameworks for trust among the district, the Latino community and other communities of color. When the Kitsap County Health Department declared racism a public health crisis in 2021, the county recognized our situation. Loneliness and a lack of belonging are common threads for children of all national origins and races in this post pandemic world. Our urgent desire for unity, coupled with practical solutions, supports this community in a world that is increasingly fragmented. Kitsap County students are asking our generation to provide safety, learning opportunities, and model inclusion, not racism. Let us follow their lead and work together. Danielle S. Castillejo writes on behalf of the North Kitsap School District Latino Parent Group and Kitsap Advocating for Immigrant Rights and Equality. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

STOP the HARM NOWBackground informa/on, context and chronology of events: For those fighting racism in the North Kitsap School District In November you, NK families, were asked to come up with solutions to the problems your students and you are experiencing. As a member of the Poulsbo Latino community I was invited to support my community in coming up with viable solutions. A good place to start is by understanding the laws, policies and your rights.  My role here today is to share these guiding policies and laws with you so that you can come up with viable solutions.  I am also here to support your linguistic needs as an interpreter.  I am not here representing North Kitsap or my current district, again, I am here as a community member.  As I am not a representative of any district, I cannot answer questions regarding district work.  En noviembre se les pidió a ustedes, las familias de NK, que propongan soluciones a los problemas, y experiencias de sus estudiantes y ustedes. Como miembro de la comunidad latina de Poulsbo, fui invitada a apoyar a mi comunidad para encontrar soluciones. Un buen lugar para comenzar es comprender las leyes, las pólizas y sus derechos civiles. Estoy aquí hoy para compartir estas pólizas y leyes con ustedes para que guíen las soluciones. También estoy aquí para apoyar sus necesidades lingüísticas como intérprete. No estoy aquí representando a North Kitsap o mi distrito actual, nuevamente, estoy aquí como miembro de la comunidad. Como no soy representante de ningún distrito, no puedo responder preguntas sobre el trabajo del distrito.Guía de pólizas para estudiantes multilingües del estado de WA (página 36):Guía de derechos civiles del personal: los distritos escolares tienen la obligación de proporcionar el personal y los recursos necesarios para implementar de manera efectiva los modelos de Programa de Educación Transicional Bilingüe (TBIP). Esta obligación incluye tener maestros altamente calificados para brindar servicios de desarrollo del idioma inglés, maestros de contenido básico (por ejemplo, maestros de matemáticas, ciencias, ciencias sociales, etc), maestros capacitados y apoyados que brinden acceso significativo a contenido riguroso a nivel de grado, administradores capacitados en la adquisición de un segundo idioma que puedan evaluar a estos maestros y materiales adecuados y apropiados para el Programa de Educación Transicional Bilingüe.WA State Multilingual Learner Policies and Practices Guide (page 36): "Civil Rights Staffing Guidance—School districts have an obligation to provide the personnel and resources necessary to effectively implement their chosen Transitional Bilingual Instructional Program (TBIP) models. This obligation includes having highly qualified teachers to provide English language development services, trained and supported core content teachers who provide meaningful access to rigorous, grade-level content, administrators trained in second language acquisition who can evaluate these teachers, and adequate and appropriate materials for the TBIP program."Definiciones de Leyes:Castañeda Para Pickard la enseñanza del desarrollo del idioma inglés debe estar diseñada para satisfacer las necesidades individuales de progreso sostenido hacia el logro del dominio del inglés en la menor cantidad de tiempo (Castañeda v. Pickard, 1981, Tribunal de Apelaciones de EE. UU.).Castañeda Para Pickard proporciona una prueba de tres frentes para guiar a los distritos en el diseño, evaluación y mejora de su programa de desarrollo del idioma inglés para estudiantes de inglés/multilingües:El programa diseñado debe basarse en una teoría educativa sólida y/o resultados de investigación científica de alta calidad.El programa debe contar con el personal y los fondos suficientes.El distrito está obligado a evaluar la eficacia de los servicios proporcionados y hacer ajustes para garantizar que los estudiantes alcancen el dominio del idioma y el éxito académico.Definitions of Laws:Castañeda v. Pickard English language development instruction must be designed to meet individual needs for sustained progress toward reaching English proficiency in the least amount of time (Castañeda v. Pickard, 1981, U.S. Court of Appeals).Castañeda v. Pickard provides a three-pronged test to guide districts in designing, evaluating, and improving their English language development program for multilingual/English learners:Program designed must be based on sound educational theory and/or high-quality research findings.Program must be sufficiently staffed and funded.District is obligated to evaluate the effectiveness of the services provided and make adjustments to ensure students are achieving language proficiency and academic success.Lau Para Nichols:  Los estudiantes multilingües/de inglés elegibles deben recibir apoyos adecuados para un acceso significativo a contenido riguroso (Lau para. Nichols, 1974, Tribunal Supremo de EE. UU.). Actualizado en julio de 2022 3 Plyler v. Doe La Corte Suprema de EE. UU.Lau v. Nichols Eligible multilingual/English learners must be provided appropriate supports for meaningful access to rigorous content (Lau v. Nichols, 1974, U.S. Supreme Court). Updated July 2022 3 Plyler v. Doe The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in"Email #**:  English Language Learners/Access, Follow up on Town Hall, February 7, 2023(See youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/live/PrQ1voPeb8o?feature=share) & StatementParent - Volunteer (#4) Statement on English Language Learner Access for child:Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964(link is external) (34 C.F.R. Part 100)Title IV of the Civil Rights Act of 1964(link is external) (42 U.S.C. §2000c, et seq.)Executive Order 13166Email #** to be filed under NonDiscrimination and Civil Rights  (Discrimination can also occur when a school's policy is neutral on its face and is administered in an even handed manner but has a disparate impact—i.e., a disproportionate and unjustified effect—on students of a particular protected class.) Please follow 3210/3210P for investigation procedures, and investigate the English Language program, understand how it is currently operating, and make adjustments to comply with the law/s.STATEMENT: Parent - Volunteer -  Some of the things I believe could improve.Having better communication with families in their native language.Having an EL para at every school to provide services to students on a regular basis as part of their day. The district took that away a couple years ago and the services have not been consistent or successful.Students would also benefit from a curriculum like the one that was being used when every school had an EL para. The curriculum worked well, and kids were exiting the program due to the increase in vocabulary and understanding of the English language.A designated classroom would be ideal. Many EL kids use resources around them and for that reason they are always aware of what is going on around them. Working in the hall creates lots of distractions and is not a very healthy learning environment.You are seen as being "different" or being left out because communication is a problem. I understand the frustration of the families not speaking the language and not receiving support in their native language.I hope for the best outcome for these kids and families.It's time they receive what they are entitled, deserve and need.It's time for Equity.I ask the district to immediately address the English Language program in North Kitsap Schools, and utilize the EL resources we currently have, communicate with parents on how they can support their children and the district, and engage the solutions presented." To Whom It May Concern,  I am writing in response to the lack of action taken by the North Kitsap School District after repeated and clear reports of racist incidents amongst the Latino students, a lack of equal and just access to Education for English Language Learners, and refusal to act to create a culture of acceptance, belonging that includes educating staff on nondiscrimination.  As a mental health therapist in the state of Illinois, our school districts would never ignore the complaints and concerns this community have brought to your board and would have already made swift and significant change and have educators in place to teach teachers, staff and administration ways they can create a safe learning environment and easy access to learning for all students.    It is well researched and documented that student who attend schools where they do not feel safe from bullying and harassment and have no source of protection or support simply do not learn in these environments. They will often remain in a dysregulated state emotionally and their bodies will remain on high alert to protect themselves from possible attacks and harm.   A safe environment is a prerequisite for productive learning (Maslow, 1970; Piaget, 1936). If students feel unsafe at school, they may be less likely to go to school at all, or less able to focus on learning while at school. Your job as an administration is to create the kind of environment that is conducive to learning.  I am sad and angry that this has been an ongoing issue and that there is such a lack of movement to make corrections, come alongside the parents and students and to start a coordinated plan of action help create significant change.  I am asking that you listen to those who have concerns and the ideas they are presenting to help their kids be safe and the parents have appropriate was to communicate concerns with quick responses.  Cyndi Mesmer, LCPCOwner & Clinical DirectorThe Art of Living Counseling Center900 Pyott Road, Suite 102Crystal Lake, IL 60014Yourstorygroup.com Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.