Counsel to Counsel - Career Advice for Lawyers

We are taking a pause until mid-late January 2026 for some upgrades. We are adding a YouTube feed to our mix for listeners who prefer video and we are lining up some great guests to talk to you about your legal career. We are grateful to our listeners and guests who have made Counsel to Counsel a labor of love. Until then, best wishes for a happy and healthy New Year!

In this episode, Steve speaks with Saja Raoof, an immigration lawyer based in the Bay Area, about how introverted lawyers can build thriving practices without pretending to be extroverts. A self-proclaimed introvert and creative marketer, Saja shares how she transformed networking anxiety into authentic relationship-building through her "Wallflower Power" approach and how coaching and ProVisors played key roles in her success. Topics Discussed How hiring a coach in 2018 helped shifted her mindset from isolation to confident business owner. The role of ProVisors and the pandemic's move to Zoom in helping her find her voice and visibility. Her creative use of video testimonials to highlight other professionals and build genuine connections. Practical strategies for introverted lawyers: energy management, structured networking, and measuring success by impact rather than comfort. Why vulnerability, generosity, and storytelling have become her most effective marketing tools.

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, Stephen Seckler speaks with Steve Herman, a civil litigator and documentary filmmaker from Vancouver, Canada. After more than 35 years in practice, Steve turned the camera on himself to explore one of the biggest transitions lawyers face—retirement. His film, Retirement on Trial, which he produced with his filmmaker wife, Evelyn Neaman, uses humor and introspection to examine what it means to step away from a career that has long defined one's identity.  In this episode, Steve Seckler speaks with Steve about his journey in making the film Through interviews with 14 lawyers and judges across North America, Steve explores the challenges of letting go of professional identity, navigating relationships in retirement, and planning psychologically—not just financially—for the next chapter. The film, structured as a farcical courtroom trial of the very concept of retirement, highlights how cultural attitudes toward aging shape our views about purpose and relevance. The conversation offers practical and emotional insights for lawyers thinking about their "next stage." As Steve puts it, retirement isn't the end—it's a transition into a new stage of growth and fulfillment. To learn more about the film and view it, visit www.retirementontrial.com.  To learn more about Steve Seckler's program for lawyers contemplating a retirement like transition, visit www.seckler.com .

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, I reflect on some of the themes of the Jewish New Year and the importance of self reflection (and the fact that you get to do it twice a year if you happen to be Jewish!)

Publishing a book may feel like an overwhelming project, but for lawyers it can be one of the most effective ways to build credibility, attract new clients, and open doors to new opportunities. In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, host Stephen Seckler speaks with Melanie Herschorn, publisher and book marketing strategist, about how attorneys can transform their expertise into a powerful marketing asset. Melanie draws on her diverse career in journalism, PR, entrepreneurship, and publishing to explain: Why publishing a book can significantly enhance your visibility and authority as a lawyer Common myths that hold professionals back from writing a book — and how to overcome them How long it realistically takes to produce a client-facing book and why length isn't the most important factor The difference between self-publishing, traditional publishing, and hybrid models How to continue marketing your book long after the launch, and whether there's a "statute of limitations" on calling it "new" Creative ways to repurpose book content into social media, podcasts, speaking engagements, and client gifts The role of AI in publishing — where it can help, and where it creates risks Melanie also shares her process for guiding attorneys from concept to published book, and how her clients have seen tangible business growth as a result. If you've been curious about publishing but aren't sure where to begin, this episode will give you the roadmap and inspiration to take the first step

Many lawyers are clear about what they don't want in their career.  But they struggle to define what they do want. In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, Steve Seckler speaks with Philippe Danielides, former Biglaw associate, communications consultant, coach, and author of The Lawyer's Guide to Freedom: A Six-Step Plan to Discover What You Actually Want. Philippe shares insights from his own career journey—spanning Biglaw, corporate communications, solo coaching, authorship, and now his current role with the Career Design team at Latham & Watkins. He explains why career clarity is often so elusive, how lawyers can expand their range of possibilities, and why "freedom" doesn't necessarily mean leaving the law. What You'll Learn in This Episode: Philippe's career journey from Biglaw to communications to coaching—and back into Biglaw in a new role Why lawyers often know what they don't want, but struggle to define what they do want Common myths and misconceptions about career clarity Key elements of Philippe's six-step process from The Lawyer's Guide to Freedom How coaching helps lawyers get unstuck and uncover new possibilities What "freedom" means within the context of a legal career Insights from Philippe's work with Latham's Career Design team Practical advice for lawyers who feel stuck or afraid to ask themselves what they really want Philippe Danielides is a coach, writer, and former corporate communications consultant. In 2017, he launched the Blue Pen Project to guide lawyers through career transitions. His 2022 book, The Lawyer's Guide to Freedom, offers a structured roadmap for clarifying professional goals. Today, Philippe coaches lawyers and alumni at Latham & Watkins, helping them navigate questions of career direction and fulfillment.

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, Steve Seckler speaks with attorney, entrepreneur, and legal business strategist Daya Naef, founder of The Success Partner, about how law firms can navigate the generational handoff in leadership. As founding partners prepare to step back, younger attorneys are stepping up—bringing fresh perspectives on technology, especially AI, and new expectations for work-life balance, flexibility, and firm culture. Steve and Daya explore The tensions and opportunities between senior and next-generation lawyers   Succession planning strategies that work (and those that don't) Practical ways to start small with AI adoption in law firms How to foster collaboration across generations without alienating either side What younger attorneys value most in today's legal workplace The evolving role of the billable hour and alternative billing models Daya also shares her vision for the law firm of 2030—one that is AI-enabled, flexible, and driven by a clear strategy for sustainability. Listen now to learn how your firm can adapt, retain top talent, and thrive in a changing legal landscape.

Artificial intelligence is dramatically changing how legal services are marketed—and how clients find lawyers. In this episode, Steve Seckler speaks with Annie Stern, a seasoned digital marketing strategist, about what lawyers need to know to stay relevant in the AI era. Key Takeaways: AI tools like ChatGPT are reshaping how clients discover and vet lawyers, including those who rely heavily on referrals. A strong digital footprint—updated bios, accurate directories, and mentions on reputable sites—is now critical for visibility. Traditional SEO isn't dead but must be complemented by AI-readiness strategies. Annie shares the top three things every solo or small firm lawyer should do today to ensure they're discoverable by AI. Resources & Contact: Learn more about Annie Stern's work at RizeUp Media or email her at annie@rizeupmedia.com.

As lawyers, we are trained to analyze, critique, and mitigate risk — all essential skills in practice. But when we bring that same mindset into our everyday conversations, we can unintentionally undermine connection and trust. In this episode, Stephen Seckler explores how the habits that make us successful advocates can backfire in networking, business development, and even personal relationships. Stephen breaks down some of the most common communication traps lawyers fall into: Leading with skepticism instead of curiosity Listening to respond instead of truly listening to understand Correcting others unnecessarily Over-sharing your own experiences instead of showing empathy Over-explaining and focusing too much on procedural detail Turning casual conversations into debates Whether you're trying to deepen client relationships, network more effectively, or simply communicate better with colleagues and friends, this episode offers tools to help you become a more impactful and trusted communicator.

In this solo episode, attorney Stephen Seckler reflects on the importance of building small, consistent habits—both for professional success and personal wellbeing. Drawing on his own efforts to reduce news and screen time, improve sleep hygiene, and maintain dental health, Stephen underscores how selfcare routines can create calm and clarity in stressful times. He also highlights how the same principle applies to business development: splashy efforts are no substitute for consistent outreach and visibility. Whether it's connecting with referral sources, posting on LinkedIn, or attending networking events, success comes from showing up regularly. Tune in to hear why both wellness and marketing are long games—and how you can make progress one habit at a time. Additional Resources Episode 139-Conquering Perfectionism in the Practice of Law with Jordana Confino Episode 140- Naïs Mouret on Emotional Intelligence, Physical Well-being, and the Practice of Law Episode 135-Tackling Mental Health Issues in the Law with Amy Levine and LCL

Many lawyers find themselves questioning whether the traditional practice of law is the right long-term fit. In this episode, host Stephen Seckler speaks with Kim Fine and Neil Handwerker, co-founders of ex judicata, a platform designed to help lawyers explore and transition to non-legal careers. Kim Fine brings a wealth of experience as a legal industry executive, including her time as Managing Director at ALM (American Lawyer Media). Neil Handwerker is a former practicing attorney and seasoned legal recruiter who has advised lawyers on career transitions for decades. Together, they launched ex judicata to address a growing need: helping lawyers find more fulfilling career paths outside of traditional legal roles. In This Episode: * The origin story of ex judicata and the founders' earlier work with Fulcrum Information Services * Common reasons lawyers want to transition out of practice: burnout, billable hour pressure, and desire for team-oriented environments * How ex judicata supports lawyers: diagnostic tools, job boards, interview archives, and online courses * Popular course offerings like financial fluency and data analytics, tailored to JD career pivots * Mindset shifts and soft skills lawyers need to develop when leaving the profession * Guidance on timing your transition, especially when you're financially dependent on your legal job * The importance of self-reflection, side projects, and informational interviews in career exploration * Support for 3Ls affected by the Federal hiring freeze * What's next for ex judicata—including a new initiative described as "revolutionary" Additional Resources: ·       Episode 155: From Lawyering to Legal Tech with Ben Chiriboga ·       Episode 147-Your Legal Career: If It's Broke, Fix It or Move On? ·       Episode 142-Winning in Your Own Court with Dena Lefkowitz ·       Episode 139-Conquering Perfectionism in the Practice of Law with Jordana Confino ·       Episode 124-Lauren Rikleen on Social Justice and Defending American Democracy ·       Episode 119-From Law Firm Associate to In-House Operations-With Shawn Hoyt ·       Episode 114-From Biglaw to In-house to Business Role and Back Again with Carl Berglind ·       Episode 113-From Litigation to Trial Consulting with Marc Diller ·       Episode 112-From Corporate Counsel to Management Consultant-Leveraging Your Legal Career with David Lesser

In this special solo episode of Counsel to Counsel, I take a break from my usual interview format to share something personal: the audio version of Chapter One of my new book, Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur, just published by the American Bar Association. This book is a field guide for lawyers who are skeptical about marketing and allergic to the idea of "sales." It's designed to help you shift your mindset, find a more authentic and comfortable approach to business development, and ultimately grow your practice in a way that feels right to you. I don't plan to release a full audiobook, but many of you have asked for one—so I'm starting here. If you've ever struggled with the idea of self-promotion or found traditional marketing advice unrelatable, this first chapter is for you. Tune in to hear how I kick off the book, and let me know what you think! Topics Covered: Why lawyers often resist marketing and business development How entrepreneurial thinking can help lawyers reframe their approach A preview of what's to come in the book Purchasing the book: 📘 Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur – Order from the ABA Bookstore or head to my website to find a discount code.

In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, Steve speaks with legal tech executive and former practicing attorney Ben Chiriboga, founding team member of Nexl, a legal CRM platform built specifically for law firms. Ben shares how Nexl is transforming how lawyers manage client relationships and streamline business development—and offers a candid look at his own journey from litigator to legal tech entrepreneur. 💡 In This Episode: What is a CRM, and why do lawyers need one? How Nexl helps lawyers stay on top of relationship-building without relying on manual data entry Nexl's legal-specific features: passive data collection, client intelligence, and built-in project management Why many lawyers resist using CRMs—and how Nexl addresses those objections Ben's personal transition from litigation to legal tech leadership

In this episode, Steve speaks with the administrative team at the NALP Foundation, a nonprofit research organization focused on the advancement of the legal profession. They explore recent data on associate hiring, attrition, and retention—highlighting what lawyers can learn from these trends to shape more satisfying careers. 💡 Topics Covered: Why lawyers are leaving law firms—and why some are choosing to stay The top factors driving associate retention (hint: it's not just about money) What the research says about generational differences and shifting career expectations How to use data to be more intentional about your career development Advice for lawyers feeling disengaged or considering alternative paths 🎧 Whether you're early in your legal career or at a crossroads, this episode offers practical insights for anyone looking to navigate a more fulfilling professional path.

In this episode, I take another break from interviewing guests to share some quick thoughts on how to use job boards effectively in your job search. While I spend a lot of time encouraging clients to make networking the central focus of their career exploration, job postings still have value—if used strategically. I share practical tips on how to leverage listings for market research, generate new ideas, and customize your applications to stand out.

In this episode, Steve Seckler speaks with Jonathan White, a Boston-based trusts and estates attorney and a self-described AI enthusiast. Jonathan shares practical insights into how he is using artificial intelligence tools to streamline his law practice and enhance client service. He also reflects on his career transitions—from litigation to insurance defense, to real estate, and finally to trusts and estates—and how his current involvement with Atticus is helping him and other lawyers build more fulfilling and profitable practices. 🎧 Topics Covered: Jonathan's career path: from civil litigation to trusts and estates What inspired him to embrace AI in his legal practice Practical applications of AI Best practices and cautions for using AI in a legal setting (10-80-10 rule, client disclosure) His involvement with Atticus and his path to becoming a coach 🛠️ AI Tips for Lawyers: Start with one or two tools and go deep Disclose AI usage in your client engagement agreements Verify all AI output—use human judgment to review Use AI as a support, not a replacement

In this episode, I'm taking a break from interviewing guests to share some exciting news—my new book, Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur, is being published by the American Bar Association in late March! If you've ever struggled with marketing yourself or felt uncomfortable with business development, this book is for you. As lawyers, we're trained to be analytical and risk-averse—great for legal work, but not always helpful when it comes to growing a practice. In the book, I share practical strategies to help you shift your mindset, build relationships, and integrate marketing into your professional life in a way that feels natural. Tune in to hear about my own journey with business development, why I wrote this book, and how it can help you market yourself without feeling like a salesperson. To order, click here.

In this episode, business coach Dominic Grew returns to discuss how solo and small firm lawyers can strategically grow their practices without overextending themselves. Dominic shares practical insights on leveraging time, outsourcing non-billable tasks, and using fractional resources before committing to full-time hires. Key Topics: When to consider hiring support staff or associates The benefits of fractional hires and outsourcing tasks like bookkeeping and IT Avoiding common mistakes when expanding a law practice How to balance delegation while maintaining quality Real-world scenarios: Hiring a first employee, sharing an associate, and weighing contract help vs. joining a larger firm Why You Should Listen: If you've ever wondered how to scale your law firm while maintaining efficiency and profitability, this episode provides actionable strategies to help you make informed decisions about growth. Additional Resources: Episode 110: Getting to No – Turning Leads into Business with Dominic Grew

In this episode, host Stephen Seckler welcomes back Gary Johnson, president of J2 Marketing Consultants, for a dynamic session of role-playing client intakes. They explore how lawyers can turn initial business conversations into productive relationships. Gary, an expert in coaching attorneys on growing their practices, shares practical techniques for understanding client needs, building trust, and addressing objections. Role-play scenarios include consultations with a restaurant owner expanding his business, a divorcing client navigating complex emotions and custody issues, and parents of a special needs child seeking estate planning advice. Each scenario highlights the importance of active listening, empathy, and providing tailored solutions. Gary also emphasizes the long-term value of relationship-building in legal marketing. This episode is packed with actionable insights for lawyers aiming to enhance their client interactions and business development strategies. Additional Resources Episode 74-Turning Business Conversations into Business-with Gary Johnson Episode 144-Turning Business Contacts into Business: Lessons From the 2024 Election  Episode 110-Dominic Grew on "Getting to No"-Turning Leads into Business and Other Ways to Succeed in Private Practice  

In this episode, host Stephen Seckler sits down with Carrie Flynn, a fractional CMO and growth marketing consultant, to explore the evolving landscape of marketing for lawyers and law firms. Carrie brings over eight years of experience helping professional service businesses scale their revenue and impact through tailored digital and traditional marketing strategies. Together, they unpack the essential elements of building a robust marketing plan that balances relationship-building with digital tools.  Key Topics Discussed:  Marketing Fundamentals for Law Firms: How to identify your ideal client and develop targeted messaging to stand out in a competitive market.  The Power of Diversification: Combining referral marketing with digital strategies like email marketing, social media, and SEO to drive consistent lead generation.  Data-Driven Strategies: Leveraging past performance to inform future marketing decisions and optimize results.  AI in Legal Marketing: The opportunities and ethical considerations when incorporating AI into your marketing efforts.  Actionable Steps: Tips for creating a focused 90-day marketing plan and evaluating its impact.  Carrie also shares her journey from public school teacher to marketing consultant and offers insights into how law firms can establish effective marketing practices that drive growth without sacrificing work/life balance.