Politicology

Even after historic civil rights progress over the last sixty years, there’s no denying that certain groups of people still face real, serious, and even systemic discrimination. In pursuit of justice, many well-meaning activists have made identity central to their cause—arguing, for example, that in order to right wrongs, rules and laws must treat people differently, not equally, depending on the groups to which they belong. Whatever you think of the term “wokeness,” this new ideology has spread like wildfire through academia, journalism, entertainment, governments, and corporations, radically changing politics, policy, and our public discourse.   But what if they have missed the mark? What if crusading identitarianism is doing more harm than good? What if it’s actually chipping away at some of the bedrock principles of our liberal democracy? If we want honest answers, we have to take these ideas seriously. In this two-part series, host Ron Steslow and Yascha Mounk break down his new book, “The Identity Trap: A Story of Ideas and Power in Our Time.” In this first episode, they discuss the rapidly changing meanings of words like “woke” and why Yascha coined the term “identity synthesis” to replace it. They look at the spread of the identity synthesis and how quickly it is changing our politics.  They dive into the intellectual underpinnings of the identity synthesis and why Yascha decided to write the book now. Segments to look forward to: (04:21) Yascha’s background  (06:50) Why he decided to write this book  (16:30) Why Yascha uses the term “trap”  (21:40) The philosophical underpinnings of the “Identity Synthesis”  Get the book:  Order a hardcover copy: https://amzn.to/3PKN6pR Get the audiobook: https://amzn.to/3Ps7CKe Get it on Kindle: https://amzn.to/3rpAB9B Follow Ron and Yascha on X (previously Twitter):  https://twitter.com/RonSteslow https://twitter.com/Yascha_Mounk Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Alua Arthur (Death Doula) joins host Ron Steslow to discuss the importance of embracing mortality, talking about death, and her new book, Briefly Perfectly Human: Making an Authentic Life and Getting Real About the End.  Segments to look forward to: (02:31) What is a death doula?  (05:39) Alua’s journey and embracing mortality  (07:28) The impact of avoiding conversations about death  (10:33) Practical ways to approach contemplating death  (26:00) Having conversations about death with your loved ones  (28:10) Supporting loved ones facing end-of-life challenges  (30:30) Reframing our language about death and disease  (32:19) The desire for “more time” at the end of life  (38:10) The importance of quality of life in end of life care (40:00) Assisted Suiceide and personal autonomy  (43:40) Meaningful rituals for death  (47:14) Mourning people with troubled legacies  (51:10) Being briefly, perfectly human Read Briefly Perfectly Human: https://bit.ly/4a5UYJb Check out Going With Grace: https://goingwithgrace.com/ Follow Ron on X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/RonSteslow Email your questions to podcast@politicology.com or leave us a voicemail at ‪(202) 455-4558‬  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Epstein files were supposed to bring clarity—what happened, who knew, and who was protected. Instead, the slow drip of disclosures, redactions, and missing records has deepened a broader crisis: collapsing trust in institutions in the U.S. and beyond. Guest Host Hagar Chemali and Mike Madrid (Author of The Latino Century) unpack what the files reveal (and what they still don’t), why the rollout feels like a coverup even to Trump’s base, and why the fallout is landing harder overseas than at home. They also dig into the darker question underneath the headlines: whether Epstein’s operation functioned as an intelligence-gathering and kompromat machine, and what “accountability” can even mean if the real scandal isn’t just individual crimes, but institutional complicity. To close, Madrid argues the Epstein revelations are one more signal that America is entering a “great transformation”—and that rebuilding trust may require a radical reimagining of governance itself. Then, in Politicology+ they dive into how Charlie Kirk’s death created a power vacuum inside the MAGA media ecosystem that even Donald Trump can’t control. POLITICOLOGY+ Not yet a Politicology+ member? Don’t miss all the extra episodes on the private, ad-free version of this podcast. Upgrade now at politicology.com/plus. CONTRIBUTE TO POLITICOLOGY politicology.com/donate SPONSORS & PROMO CODES https://bit.ly/44uAGZ8 Send your questions and ideas to podcast@politicology.com or leave a voicemail at ‪(703) 239-3068‬ Follow this week’s panel on X (formerly Twitter): https://x.com/madrid_mike https://x.com/HagarChemali Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For the ad-free version of this episode, subscribe to Politicology+ at https://politicology.com/plus In part two of this series, Ron talks to Rebecca Roiphe (Joseph Solomon Distinguished Professor of Law at New York Law School) about critical legal studies, the attacks on our understanding of what the law is and how it should function from across the political spectrum.  They focus on how the chilling actions of the Trump Administration stem from a belief that law is merely an instrument of power, and why that belief is corrosive—to the everyday practice of law and to liberal democracy itself. They discuss: (08:00) Understanding liberalism vs progressivism (09:08) Fairness in the legal system  (16:43) The role of the Federalist Society and its shift at Harvard  (21:19) The Trump Administration’s legal philosophy (25:39) The independence of the Justice Department  (28:33) The impact of executive orders targeting law firms  (32:33) The future of legal representation  Follow Ron and Rebecca on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RonSteslow https://x.com/rroiphe Email your questions to podcast@politicology.com or leave us a voicemail at ‪‪(703) 239-3068‬ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the “next big thing” out of Silicon Valley isn’t an app—it’s a political project engineered to bypass democracy? In this episode, Guest Host Mike Madrid sits down with Gil Durán (journalist and author of “The Nerd Reich: Silicon Valley Fascism and The War on Democracy”) who’s been tracking an increasingly explicit ideology emerging from venture capital and tech power circles that treats democratic governance as a constraint to be engineered around. Gil explains how what started as odd local political behavior in San Francisco and San Jose led him to a deeper story: a network of ideas, money, and influence reaching all the way to international politics.  He argues the threat isn’t a classic “tanks in the streets” coup. It’s a quieter capture: narrative control, unlimited spending, regulatory rollback, and a worldview that positions billionaires as the rightful architects of a post-national, post-democratic future.  Along the way, he breaks down the intellectual roots of the “network state” movement, why J.D. Vance matters in this story, and how tech-funded “moderation” in deep-blue places can function as a parallel political brand—Democratic in label, Republican in policy, and billionaire-aligned in practice. Then, in Politicology+ they dig into what kind of leadership Democrats do actually need in the post-Trump era.  Pre-order The Nerd Reich: https://bit.ly/4rhnD7K POLITICOLOGY+ Not yet a Politicology+ member? Don’t miss all the extra episodes on the private, ad-free version of this podcast. Upgrade now at politicology.com/plus. CONTRIBUTE TO POLITICOLOGY politicology.com/donate SPONSORS & PROMO CODES https://bit.ly/44uAGZ8 Send your questions and ideas to podcast@politicology.com or leave a voicemail at ‪(703) 239-3068‬ Follow this week’s panel on X (formerly Twitter): https://x.com/madrid_mike https://x.com/gilduran76 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For the ad-free version of this episode, subscribe to Politicology+ at https://politicology.com/plus In this two-part episode, Ron talks to Rebecca Roiphe (Joseph Solomon Distinguished Professor of Law at New York Law School) about critical legal studies, the attacks on our understanding of what the law is and how it should function from across the political spectrum.  They discuss: (04:57) The challenges the rule of law is facing (07:31) Understanding Critical Legal Studies (10:16) Intersectionality and Its Impact (12:00) Power Dynamics in Critical Legal Studies  (20:54) The Adversarial System and Its Importance (27:05) The Evolution of Critical Legal Thought (32:45) The Role of Law in Democracy Follow Ron and Rebecca on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RonSteslow https://x.com/rroiphe Email your questions to podcast@politicology.com or leave us a voicemail at ‪‪(703) 239-3068‬ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Americans largely agree on two immigration goals: securing the border and deporting people here illegally who have committed violent crimes.  But inside the United States, enforcement has become a political flashpoint. Guest Host Susan Del Percio is joined by Jeh Johnson (Former Secretary of Homeland Security) to discuss why border crossings can fall quickly based on deterrence and perception and why interior enforcement works very differently.  Then, they break down how quota-driven, “numbers-first” tactics incentivize sloppy operations and high-profile street encounters that alienate local governments, undermine cooperation with law enforcement, and ultimately make it harder to remove the “worst of the worst,” eroding public trust and public safety in the process. Then, in Politicology+ they dig into why the Trump Administration wants states’ unredacted voter rolls. POLITICOLOGY+ Not yet a Politicology+ member? Don’t miss all the extra episodes on the private, ad-free version of this podcast. Upgrade now at politicology.com/plus. CONTRIBUTE TO POLITICOLOGY politicology.com/donate SPONSORS & PROMO CODES https://bit.ly/44uAGZ8 Send your questions and ideas to podcast@politicology.com or leave a voicemail at ‪(703) 239-3068‬ Follow this week’s panel on X (formerly Twitter): https://x.com/DelPercioS Related Reading:  Axios - Trump's mass deportations are in big trouble NYT - ICE Expands Power of Agents to Arrest People Without Warrants - The New York Times Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are there tendencies within Christian tradition that put some versions of the faith in tension with core principles of democracy? What is “Authoritarian Reactionary Christianity?” How can a pluralistic society guard against the rise of political figures—including Donald Trump—aiming to weaponize this phenomenon? In this two-part conversation, we dive into these provocative questions with the Rev. Prof. David Gushee (Distinguished University Professor of Christian Ethics at Mercer University) and discuss his book Defending Democracy From Its Christian Enemies. Segments to look forward to in part 2: (02:12) Christianity in the reactionary politics of France and Germany in the 20th century   (07:54) The allure of authoritarian leaders who promise to fix cultural issues  (13:06) The idealization of a past Christian nation and the ubiquitous use of anti-LGBT rhetoric in policial mobilization (18:20) The difficulty of appealing to authoritarian-leaning Christians and the influence of leaders in those communities (32:30 ) “Covenantal democracy” rooted in the Baptist tradition (35:18) The importance of civic literacy and political ethics education among Christians to inoculate against authoritarian tendencies (40:00) The importance of long-term cultural and interpersonal work to build stronger democratic norms. For more of David’s work visit his website: https://www.davidpgushee.com/ Follow Ron  on X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/RonSteslow Email your questions and thoughts to podcast@politicology.com or leave us a voicemail at ‪(202) 455-4558‬. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Guest Host Lucy Caldwell and Dmitri Mehlhorn (Founder, The Atoll Society) have a conversation about political risk, institutional blind spots, and what scenario-based thinking reveals that conventional analysis often misses. They discuss the Atoll Society’s simulation salons, which use scenario-based exercises to test assumptions about power, institutions, and the rule of law. Rather than predict outcomes, the goal is to surface blind spots: where existing frameworks for understanding democracy, law, and political behavior may no longer fully apply. The conversation turns to the violence in Minnesota, the uneven application of state power, and the idea that political systems often change less through dramatic breaks than through accumulation—small decisions that reshape incentives and expectations over time.  They examine why political leaders and institutions tend to emphasize reassurance, even in periods of uncertainty, and how that instinct can limit honest discussions about risk. Along the way, they consider how history, founding-era debates, and comparative examples can help anchor difficult conversations without resorting to speculation. POLITICOLOGY+ Not yet a Politicology+ member? Don’t miss all the extra episodes on the private, ad-free version of this podcast. Upgrade now at politicology.com/plus. CONTRIBUTE TO POLITICOLOGY politicology.com/donate SPONSORS & PROMO CODES https://bit.ly/44uAGZ8 Send your questions and ideas to podcast@politicology.com or leave a voicemail at ‪(703) 239-3068‬ Follow this week’s panel on X (formerly Twitter): https://x.com/lucymcaldwell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are there tendencies within Christian tradition that put some versions of the faith in tension with core principles of democracy? What is “Authoritarian Reactionary Christianity?” How can a pluralistic society guard against the rise of political figures—including Donald Trump—aiming to weaponize this phenomenon? In this two-part conversation, Ron Steslow and Rev. Prof. David Gushee (Distinguished University Professor of Christian Ethics at Mercer University) discuss these provocative questions and more as they dive into David’s book, Defending Democracy From Its Christian Enemies. In part 1: (04:40) Ron shares a personal note with David about the impact he’s had on Ron’s journey   (07:24) David discussed a few of the transformative moments in his career  (13:08) The historical and current challenges Christianity poses to democratic values  (16:30) Why some Christians are skeptical of democracy and the nuanced reasons behind it (22:02 ) Authoritarian Reactionary Christianity and why it’s a better term for what we’re seeing  than Christian Nationalism  (28:38) How certain Christian groups prioritize their beliefs over democratic norms and values  (34:02) The cycle of secular revolutions followed by religious counter-revolutions  For more of David’s work visit his website: https://www.davidpgushee.com/ Follow Ron  on X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/RonSteslow Email your questions and thoughts to podcast@politicology.com or leave us a voicemail at ‪(202) 455-4558‬. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As the United States approaches its 250th anniversary, Guest Host Mike Madrid and Susan Del Percio (MS NOW political analyst and crisis communications expert) grapple with a central question: when Americans say “this isn’t who we are,” are we describing an aspiration—or denying a reality? They confront the collision between ideals and reality, examining government overreach, due process, and what it means when executive power stretches beyond long-standing constitutional limits. The conversation moves through voter exhaustion, institutional breakdown, and why secrecy inside government is often the clearest warning sign that something has gone wrong. They look deeper than just the crisis of “democracy” in the abstract, and discuss how Americans are losing freedom itself, the right to privacy, bodily autonomy, and protection from arbitrary state power. The episode ends with an unsettling possibility: if the American experiment depends on restraint and shared belief, what happens when those beliefs fracture—and no institution is strong enough to hold the line? Then, in Politicology+ they dig into why housing affordability has become the central economic and political problem heading into the midterms. POLITICOLOGY+ Not yet a Politicology+ member? Don’t miss all the extra episodes on the private, ad-free version of this podcast. Upgrade now at politicology.com/plus. CONTRIBUTE TO POLITICOLOGY politicology.com/donate SPONSORS & PROMO CODES https://bit.ly/44uAGZ8 Send your questions and ideas to podcast@politicology.com or leave a voicemail at ‪(703) 239-3068‬ Follow this week’s panel on X (formerly Twitter): https://x.com/madrid_mike https://x.com/DelPercioS Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Iran is erupting in protests—and the regime is cracking down with extraordinary violence.  Guest Host Hagar Chemali sits down with Jay Solomon (investigative reporter at The Free Press) to unpack why protests are surging nationwide, what the regime’s economic rot reveals about its fragility, and what (if anything) the U.S. and Israel might do next. They dig into a bank-collapse story that helped ignite the unrest, the regime’s deteriorating proxy network after October 7, and the strategic debate inside Washington over strikes, cyber operations, and financial pressure. Then they turn to the American political fringes—left and right—and why some activists echo Islamic Republic propaganda about the protests being “astroturfed.” Finally, in Politicology+, they unpack how Qatar, a tiny Gulf nation with just 350,000 citizens, has built one of the most wide-reaching influence networks in the world. POLITICOLOGY+ Not yet a Politicology+ member? Don’t miss all the extra episodes on the private, ad-free version of this podcast. Upgrade now at politicology.com/plus. CONTRIBUTE TO POLITICOLOGY politicology.com/donate SPONSORS & PROMO CODES https://bit.ly/44uAGZ8 Send your questions and ideas to podcast@politicology.com or leave a voicemail at ‪(703) 239-3068‬ Follow this week’s panel on X (formerly Twitter): https://x.com/HagarChemali https://x.com/FPJaySolomon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For the ad-free version of this episode, subscribe to Politicology+ at https://politicology.com/plus For most Americans, losing access to a bank account sounds like a customer-service hassle—not a political problem. But what if your ability to get paid, pay bills, run a business, donate to a cause, or even shop online or just withdraw cash at an ATM can be shut off quietly, without a trial, without an explanation, and without a meaningful way to appeal? In this two-part episode, Ron Steslow is joined by economist Jorge Jraissati, President of the Economic Inclusion Group, to unpack the growing reality of debanking and the compliance machinery behind it. In this second episode, they go upstream: who writes the rules—and how do they spread? Ron and Jorge focus on FATF (the Financial Action Task Force), a powerful global standard-setter for AML/CFT that most people have never heard of, despite how much it shapes modern banking. Jorge explains FATF’s enormous “soft power,” how gray/black lists raise the cost of cross-border finance, and why its opacity makes democratic accountability nearly impossible. They also dig deeper into “de-risking”, the lack of public data, and how AML/CFT allegations can escalate into asset freezes. Finally, they confront the “escape hatch” many people are turning to: permissionless money. Jorge argues Bitcoin has become a lifeline for the unbanked and debanked—while warning that technology can’t substitute for defending due process and reforming the underlying system. Learn more about the Economic Inclusion Group: https://econinclusion.com/ Get in touch with Jorge: jorge@econinclusion.com Find our sponsor links and promo codes here: https://bit.ly/44uAGZ8 Get 15% off OneSkin with the code RON at  https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Send your questions and ideas to podcast@politicology.com or leave a voicemail at ‪(703) 239-3068‬ Follow Ron and Jorge on X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/RonSteslow https://x.com/JraissatiJorge Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For most Americans, losing access to a bank account sounds like a customer-service hassle—not a political problem. But what if your ability to get paid, pay bills, run a business, donate to a cause, or even shop online or withdraw cash at an ATM can be shut off quietly, without a trial, without an explanation, and without a meaningful way to appeal? In this two-part episode, Ron Steslow is joined by economist Jorge Jraissati, President of the Economic Inclusion Group, to unpack the growing reality of debanking and the compliance machinery behind it. In this first episode, they trace how post-9/11 AML/CFT and KYC regimes turned banks into de facto enforcement arms of the state—creating mass reporting, privacy erosion, and incentives to cut off customers based on “risk,” stigma, or perception rather than proven wrongdoing. They also explore how this system becomes ripe for weaponization—by authoritarian regimes, domestic actors, or simply the structure of the rules—especially when finance becomes transnational, opaque, and increasingly disconnected from due process. Learn more about the Economic Inclusion Group: https://econinclusion.com/ Get in touch with Jorge: jorge@econinclusion.com Find our sponsor links and promo codes here: https://bit.ly/44uAGZ8 Get 15% off OneSkin with the code RON at  https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Send your questions and ideas to podcast@politicology.com or leave a voicemail at ‪(703) 239-3068‬ Follow Ron and Jorge on X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/RonSteslow https://x.com/JraissatiJorge Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ron Steslow kicks off 2026 with a “Smash Brothers” weekly featuring Lucy Caldwell, Hagar Chemali, Susan Del Percio, and Mike Madrid to look at the forces they think will define the year ahead—geopolitical disruption, institutional failure, civil dysfunction—and the transformational period we’re living through. Then they share some exciting news about The Weekly in 2026. Finally, in Politicology+, they dive into the values that will matter the most as we head into 2026. POLITICOLOGY+ Not yet a Politicology+ member? Don’t miss all the extra episodes on the private, ad-free version of this podcast. Upgrade now at politicology.com/plus. CONTRIBUTE TO POLITICOLOGY politicology.com/donate SPONSORS & PROMO CODES https://bit.ly/44uAGZ8 Get 15% off OneSkin with the code RON at  https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Send your questions and ideas to podcast@politicology.com or leave a voicemail at ‪(703) 239-3068‬ Follow this week’s panel on X (formerly Twitter): https:/x.com/RonSteslow https://x.com/lucymcaldwell https://x.com/HagarChemali https://x.com/DelPercioS https://x.com/madrid_mike Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the first week of the new year, the U.S. launches a dramatic operation in Venezuela that ends with Nicolás Maduro (and Cilia Flores) in U.S. custody, transported to New York to face narco-terorism charges.  Ron and Hagar Chemali (Fmr. spokesperson for the U.S. Mission to the UN) unpack what we know about the raid, why the administration says it happened, and why the real motive may be bigger than oil or drugs.  Then they turn to the hardest questions: legality in a world where "international law” often lacks enforcement, what happens next inside Venezuela as the regime attempts to hold power without Maduro, and whether free and fair elections are even possible while the military and security services that upheld Maduro’s rule remain intact.  Finally, they dissect the political reaction, arguing it’s possible to demand transparency and a plan without laundering Maduro or aligning with authoritarian propaganda.  Related reading: Who Organized The Pro-Maduro Protests? https://x.com/asranomani/status/2007708749075480885?s=46 POLITICOLOGY+ Not yet a Politicology+ member? Don’t miss all the extra episodes on the private, ad-free version of this podcast. Upgrade now at politicology.com/plus. CONTRIBUTE TO POLITICOLOGY politicology.com/donate SPONSORS & PROMO CODES https://bit.ly/44uAGZ8 Get 15% off OneSkin with the code RON at  https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Send your questions and ideas to podcast@politicology.com or leave a voicemail at ‪(703) 239-3068‬ Follow Ron and Hagar on X (formerly Twitter): https:/x.com/RonSteslow https://x.com/HagarChemali Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ron Steslow and Olivier Knox discuss whether thinking is becoming a luxury good. They explore the alarming trend of declining literacy and the implications of digital media and AI on human thought and social interaction. Later, they discuss how the shift towards a post-literate society, characterized by short-form content and algorithmic reading, threatens the foundations of democracy and critical thinking.Related Reading: NYT - Thinking Is Becoming a Luxury GoodTIME - ChatGPT's Impact On Our Brains According to an MIT Study | TIME Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ron Steslow and Lucy Caldwell talk about the current healthcare landscape and the ongoing debate about how we pay for healthcare. They critique the ACA’s effectiveness, the challenges of health insurance coverage and explore market-based solutions. They also highlight the importance of personal advocacy in navigating healthcare and the evolving discourse around health and wellness, particularly in the context of AI's role in healthcare advocacy.Related Reading: NBC News - Senate Republicans plan vote on a health care alternative as ACA funds look likely to expire Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You can pre-order Testimony: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Failed a Generation now at https://www.jonwardwrites.org/ Jon Ward (Journalist and author of Testimony: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Failed a Generation)  joins Ron Steslow to discuss growing up in the Evangelical Church, “Christian Trumpism,” and his new memoir. (06:05) Why Sarah Palin resonated with so many Christians  (10:36) What having difficult conversations can teach you engagement and defensiveness   (20:00) Evangelicals showing more fear than faith  (28:50) How the structures in evangelical communities enabled Trump to distort reality  (31:06) Right Makes Might vs Might Makes Right  (36:32) How can outsiders engage positively with Evangelicals on reforming the movement  Pre-order Testimony: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Failed a Generation—https://www.jonwardwrites.org/ Follow Ron and Jon on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RonSteslow https://twitter.com/jonward11 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You can pre-order Testimony: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Failed a Generation now at https://www.jonwardwrites.org/ Jon Ward (Journalist and author of Testimony: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Failed a Generation) joins Ron Steslow to discuss growing up in the Evangelical Church, “Christian Trumpism,” and his new memoir. (03:28) Why Jon wrote the book (08:10) Being a “border-stalker” (14:36) The Jesus Movement (21:07) Understanding the different motivations (abortion and race) for Evangelicals joining the Republican party (23:00) The insular church community and how it impacted his worldview (30:00) How Christian belief in the end times impacts action (32:50) The connection between being a spiritual warrior and a political warrior (36:15) Spiritual ecstasy as a sign of devotion to God (and the burnout it caused) (41:41) How anti-intellectualism reinforced the social bubble Pre-order Testimony: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Failed a Generation—https://www.jonwardwrites.org/ Follow Ron and Jon on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RonSteslow https://twitter.com/jonward11 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices