Copywriters Podcast

It’s a full-blown crisis. As if writing copy wasn’t hard enough, there’s a new demand falling on the plates of copywriters more and more. And while maybe it’s not fair, it IS real. And it’s important that you know about it, and know what to do about it. Good news. We’ve got just the person to explain what it is and how to come out ahead, looking like a million bucks and being a hero, whether you wear a cape or not. The crisis is one of Design. These days, just as more and more is being expected of copywriters on the word and strategy side, so is more being expected on the Design side. That doesn’t mean you have to be a full-fledged designer to get copy jobs. You don’t. But you do need to know your way around what a well designed ad or web page looks like. And there are details you need to understand and offer ideas about. And our very special guest today and returning champion, Lori Haller of Designing Response, is here to sort it out and straighten it all out for you. Lori works side by side with many of the greatest copywriters of our time to help create control-beating packages, for clients like Boardroom, Healthy Directions, Dr. Al Sears, Nutri-Health, KCI Communications, and Agora. She has coached clients around the world, and she is an in-demand speaker and trainer. I’ve only scratched the surface of Lori’s incredible and long list of credentials. You’d be hard pressed to find someone who knows more or who has done more. Her company, DesigningResponse, based in Germantown, Maryland, has built a reputation for creating award-winning, sales-generating direct mail, online promotions, space advertising, and product development. She knows from up-to-date information in the field what are the new demands and expectations being placed upon copywriters. And she will talk about that today. Lori’s website: https://lorihaller.com Reach Lori directly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lori-haller-b2840717 Download.

These days people talk about neurochemicals a lot. Chemicals like dopamine, and cortisol, and the love chemical, oxytocin. I’ve always wondered how these chemicals are affected by copy, and how much it matters. So imagine my surprise when I discovered what our very special guest was doing! His name is Clive Cable, and he’s not only written a book about this, he has a complete system to evaluate copy based on the neurochemistry the copy will cause, and the buying behavior that chemistry will lead to. The book is called Neurocopy, and it’s the first systematic work I’ve ever seen that shows how copy stimulates certain chemicals, and how those chemicals make people want to buy. Clive is a trailblazer with his pioneering work. But I want to make it clear that he’s not some ivory tower guy sitting in a white coat in a lab measuring blood levels of dopamine and endorphins with a clinical chemistry analyzer. No, Clive’s one of us. He got started as a door-to-door salesman, offering home improvement products and services for as much as $25,000 a pop–and closing an amazing two out of every three people he talked to. He’s also an experienced copywriter, and has generated over £40 million, which is over 50 million dollars, across 12 different industries. Clive also built a supplement company that generated £24,000 a month, selling products including colloidal silver, prebiotics and aerobic oxygen. All of which to say that nothing he says about the process of buying and selling is theoretical. He’s lived it and he lives it. And he’s a great salesperson! I can also say that after I read through his book, I started to feel the effects of cortisol, which is a feeling of high stress, right before high-stakes events, and the effects of endorphins, which is a feeling of relief and satisfaction, after those events ended well. There’s a lot more to all this, as we’ll find out today. Link to get Clive’s new book, “Neurocopy” https://www.lulu.com/shop/clive-cable/neurocopy/paperback/product-w4qjdmn.html Download.

We’re really at a crisis point for a lot of marketers. It’s not just that ads keep getting more expensive. It’s that it just gets harder and harder to get and keep prospects’ attention. And with everything being engineered and optimized by AI and CRO, stuff ends up looking more and more the same. And that only works against you. You know you need to stand out–but how? Well, the best way to get and keep attention is, and always has been, a story. But how long is a story? I mean, a Hero’s Journey story can take hours. And even the type of compact tales I introduced in my book The Persuasion Story Code can take two to three minutes. That’s not very long, but at a time of shrinking attention spans, it’s still too long. Now, you can try using outrageous hooks. But in addition to shrinking attention spans, you’re also fighting against rising levels of skepticism and outright distrust. If you say something that gets attention but just isn’t believable, you’re still sunk. So, what would be ideal to solve this problem? It would be a persuasion story you could tell in 15 or 20 words. Impossible, you say? That’s what I thought until I really started working on it. One of my clients, Ari Nirsissian, helped me quite a lot in the development of my thinking and writing of these new kind of attention magnets, the one-sentence microstory. It really is a story. It really is persuasive. And it really is short! Just the right size for today’s attention spans. Today I’m going to show you, step by step, how I developed three of them… and how I combined them into one electric three-sentence paragraph, which takes less than a minute to read out loud. Resources: To find out more about my book The Persuasion Story Code, check out this link to the Amazon page: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ And to find out more about my coaching for experienced copywriters and business owners, go to: https://garfinkelcoaching.com Download.

Today’s show is for every talented copywriter stuck in the feast-or-famine cycle of business and would much rather get paid well, to reflect the enormous value their copy is bringing to their clients. We have a very special returning champion on the show today, Dr. Harlan Kilstein. He has just released a book called Value-Based Copywriting. Originally presented in a $997 seminar, this material has changed the lives and of course careers of some very fortunate copywriters. This book solves the problem faced by thousands of copywriters–not getting paid for what their work is worth. Harlan is a renowned entrepreneur and copywriting expert known for his innovative approaches in marketing, mindset, and personal development. With decades of experience at the intersection of psychology, persuasion, and business strategy, Harlan has built a reputation for helping individuals and companies unlock explosive growth through compelling communication and breakthrough thinking. He’s also a former educator with a doctorate in education. And, Harlan’s a very successful copywriter himself and an expert in NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) and hypnosis. He’ll bring all of this, and more, to bear today. So you may want to take notes while you’re listening to today’s podcast. Lots of money-making information you will be able to use immediately. Harlan’s new book: Value-Based Copywriting: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GCCR64DC My book The Persuasion Story Code: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ Download.

Life must have been at least a little frustrating for our Old Master on today’s show. His name was Walter Weir. He was a very active and successful copywriter and advertising professor, but he must have constantly run into resistance along the way, since so many of his ideas were ahead of their time. Walter Weir was born in 1909 and he died in 1996. He published a couple of books which are nearly impossible to find today. Maybe the publisher, my old employer McGraw-Hill, took them out of print quickly because the ideas were so far ahead of their time that they didn’t sell very well. I don’t know. What I do know is I was fascinated by his ideas. Here are 5 takeaways from an exploration of Weir’s writings and thinking, from today’s show: 1. Write copy that you truly believe, because people can feel it when you don’t. When you don’t believe it, your reader won’t either. And if your reader doesn’t believe it, they won’t buy. 2. Use words that people can FEEL as well as merely understand. Forget about clever word-plays. Say stuff they can feel in their bones. 3. If you’ve got a group going over the copy, write the copy yourself. By yourself. Just you. While a committee can review, only one voice can lead. 4. Forget about features and benefits. Instead, present a description of something someone would feel good about using. People don’t tend to buy just to HAVE something. They buy to FEEL something. 5. Cut everything that doesn’t sound like something a real person would actually say. Because unless it sounds like a human, it won’t reach one. Download.

If you’re involved in copywriting in any way, you know right now we’re at an inflection point. Things have been changing fast over the last two years, and show no signs of slowing down. People who hire copywriters tell me it’s harder than ever to find a good one… yet people who write copy for a living, many of them, tell me it’s really hard to find good-paying work. There’s clearly a disconnect. AI has a lot to do with it. The very definition of what a copywriter is, and what a copywriter does, seems very much in flux. Today I want to suggest five copywriting goals for 2026. These are based on how I was able to help my own mentoring clients solve problems and develop their marketability over the past 12 months. I work with established copywriters and business owners who use direct response, and what I helped them with on a very personal, customized basis would be a good idea for most everyone who listens to this podcast. Links: Copywriting Mentoring: https://garfinkelcoaching.com Persuasive storytelling: The Persuasion Story Code https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ Download.

It takes a lot of courage and a lot of confidence to do what our special guest today has done… and that’s fire all his clients and start an email-based business. But Alin Dragu did just that, and he’s here to tell us about it. He’s the best-selling author of the book Meaningful Marketing, he spent 5 years as direct of marketing at one of the fastest growing churches in the US, and 3 years as the VP of growth at a Christian marketing agency. Alin is definitely a copywriter’s copywriter. He’s obsessed with reading novels and old fiction letters. And he admits he’s secretly obsessed with luxury watches, something Nathan’s a collector of as well. Finally, in case you end up taking Alin to dinner, which probably wouldn’t be a bad idea, you should know he says he’s never refused a steak, ever in his life. Now, here’s what we asked him: 1. So Alin, could you give us a quick tour of what you do? 2. I’m very interested in your S-L-O framework that you use to write all your emails. Could you walk us through that? 3. So as I understand it, your funnel works something like this: - you make youtube videos that promote your lead magnets - when people get the lead magnets, of course they opt-into your list - every day you send one, and I quote, “very entertaining story” while also plugging one of your products - and you get sales every day. I was wondering if we could go through one of those stories and you could break it down for us–like, say, the “I spent $613 on coffee” story? And talk about what makes a great story? 4. You are in a very email-list-dependent business. How do you deal with the issues that come with that, like trolls, unsubscribes, and delivering content every day? 5. You need to come up with a new idea every day. How do you do that without running up against burnout? 6. OK, you do something a lot of people are afraid to do. It’s something Nathan and I strongly recommend, though. Tell us how you sell in every email and get people to keep opening the next email? 7. So tell us about who your list is for and how someone can join. -- Link to get on Alin’s list: https://alindragu.com/ Download.

Last fall, our returning champion Glenn Fisher and his business partner Nick O’Connor teamed up with mega financial publisher Marketwise for a bold experiment: Offer FREE training in financial copywriting to 12 people who competed for the spots. There were 500 people applied. Of the 12 who were selected, Glenn says, four were offered jobs… and two are being mentored by financial copywriting legend Mike Palmer. You know, in many stupid businesses, when something works, the business immediately stops doing it and decides to try something else. Lucky for you, Marketwise is anything but a stupid business. They know a good thing when they see it. So they decided to keep working with Glenn and Nick and run more programs through 2026. And Glenn’s back on the show to tell us what they learned and what’s next… and how you might be one of the lucky 12 in a future cohort! Links: Financial Copy U: https://www.financialcopyu.com/ The Fix, Glenn’s and Nick’s other program: https://thefixcopywriting.com/ Download.

So a lot of people are building their brand by pouring tons of money into traffic… A/B testing… tracking every click… but deep down, you feel that something’s not landing. It’s almost like you wonder if you’re coming across as desperate, rather than confident. Maybe it’s time to take a look at a cherished assumption in online marketing: Namely, that more information and more volume equals more authority. Not really, says our own Nathan Fraser. He’s given me an advance peek at his new book, The Signal. I was so excited by the refreshing ideas he has in there that I wanted him to talk about it on today’s show… and he agreed. Look. Nathan says you should stop begging the algorithm and start commanding attention. And he has some proven ideas on how to do that. Which he’ll share with us today. Here are the questions I asked him: 1. In your book, you say, “Marketing that begs for attention becomes noise. Marketing grounded in conviction becomes signal.” What do you mean by this, and how can someone make sure their marketing has minimum noise and maximum signal? 2. You talk about the Pratfall Effect and how not coming across as “perfect,” or trying to, actually bonds a business with its customers better than trying to appear cool and flawless. How does this work? 3. I love what you say about overexplaining–that it indicates insecurity and this repels rather than attracts the right people. Could you talk about that? 4. So there are two philosophies I’ve seen these days: Omnipresence, where you show up everywhere all the time, and being very selective and making it difficult to get access to you. You’re in favor of the second approach. Why do you feel that way? 5. Your advice for building an attractive signal that draws the right customers to you is to “select, not sell.” What does this look like? 6. You identify five buyer beliefs in a very interesting chapter called “Belief is the Real Funnel.” This is so different from what anyone else I have heard says. I notice that in the five-step funnel you outline, Apple somehow got the first belief to become part of the popular culture. Could you go through these beliefs and make some suggestions about how to create them in an actual funnel? 7. You write "Identity closes deals long before logic ever enters the room." How do you determine how your product changes your prospect’s sense of identity? Get your copy of The Signal at https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0G5FGMH21 Visit Nathan's site at CultishContent.comDownload.

What was discovered and perfected over 100 years ago, that is one of the most important marketing strategies online today? We have a special Old Masters Series show today. It’s a hybrid between marketing discoveries of the early 1900s, and top moneymakers of 2025. Our old Master is Claude Hopkins. Most people don’t realize that there’s a strong connection between two of the most important principles he wrote about and used – sampling, and demonstration – and what makes for an effective lead magnet in today’s world. For this episode, I went back into two of his most important books, Scientific Advertising and My Life in Advertising. We’ll talk about those first. There are tons of gems in there and these books are well worth reading many times, which I have done myself. So we’re going to focus on a narrow slice of the wisdom on today’s hybrid Old Masters Series show. And then, we’ll catapult into 2025 to see how those ideas have evolved. My Life in Advertising/Scientific Advertising, by Claude Hopkins https://www.amazon.com/dp/0844231010/ Sample Lead Magnet: First Two Chapters Of The Persuasion Story Code https://PersuasionStoryCode.com Download.

Our returning champion today, Dr. Doug Pew, is well known in two different worlds: The world of high-powered copywriting for online course creators, where he has done many six and seven figure launches. And the other world where Doug is known is that of music. He is a composer whose work was actually performed at Carnegie Hall! And he wrote an opera that was performed at the Kennedy Center. Those worlds overlap in certain ways sometimes for Doug, and that’s what we’re going to talk about today. He’s written copy for music businesses like Creative Piano Academy, Lauren Bateman Guitar, Become A Bassist, and J209, an a cappella singing group, who he helped grow their Instagram following to over 15,000 in a couple of months. Most of his work for these businesses has been to create sales, and, as you might expect, selling students into an online music instruction business is different in some ways than other types of copywriting. Yet the differences are fascinating, and they may help you with your own copy, even in non-musical niches. Contact Information: Doug’s Copywriter website is where you can book a call about a copy project: www.dougpewcopywriting.com or can email him directly at doug@dougpewcopywriting.com If you want to check out the music business, you can visit… https://latterdaymusiversity.com/ Download.

Do you have an imaginary friend? Whether you do or not, today we’re going to talk about why a particular imaginary friend can solve one of the biggest problems copywriters are having today. And that problem is, your copy’s not connecting with the right target group of prospects. So your conversions are way lower than you’d like them to be. Now, the perfect solution to that would be to have a real-live focus group of honest, unflinching prospects available to you 24/7. People you could ask about their problems, their fears, their hopes, their dreams. But… sorry. You can’t. However, what we’re going to talk about today is the next best thing. And the good news is, you can build this imaginary friend pretty easily from real-world data. So you get the equivalent of your 24/7 focus group, but it’s not high-maintenance. In fact, it doesn’t require any care and feeding at all. Download.

Ever spend hours, just waiting for the “perfect time” to start writing? Maybe first you decide to do a guided visualization. Or answer a few emails. Could be that there’s that perfect song that always gets your juices flowing… or a motivational youtube video you love… Well… Here’s a tip: Don’t wait and don’t find an excuse to do something else. Just start. I know it sounds crazy. Maybe impossible. But here’s the thing: When you’re not writing, it almost never “feels like” the right time to start writing. And, as it turns out, it’s nearly always better to write something bad than to write nothing at all. As the great Gary Halbert said, “Motion is better than meditation.” That is what we’ll talk about today. Download.

What if you found you were sitting on tons of money that you didn’t even know about? It sounds like the beginning of a new Netflix series, right? But this happened in real life to our returning champion, Agency owner and entrepreneur Cath Rehorn. She will be the first to admit that numbers are not her. She’s a words and people person, not a data ninja. But she developed a conversation with ChatGPT to get it to review her Stripe data, even though, as she also admits, at first she really didn’t have any idea what she was doing. And she realized that with minimum effort–like, mainly, sending out a few emails–she could add 54,000 British pounds, or about $70,000 US, to her revenues every year. And with only a little more effort, she reckoned, she could bring in even more. Her thought process and how she tackled a clumsy problem with such persistence and humor should be of interest, and possibly very valuable, to anyone who runs a business and even does a pretty bad job of keeping track of their numbers. You probably remember Cath because her podcast, titled Selling Them With Kindness, got a lot of engagement and some really heartfelt comments from listeners. Cath’s business is called Kind Copy. She lives in Wales in the UK. She has a true family business, since it employs herself, her husband, her sister and 2 other team members. Article about how Cath used ChatGPT: https://catherinereohorn.substack.com/p/i-got-more-clarity-on-my-business?r=1xjc2 Cath’s website: https://kindcopy.co.uk/ Cath’s social media links: https://x.com/kindcopy https://www.instagram.com/kindcopyuk/ Download.

Our very special guest today is Angus Fletcher, professor of story science at Ohio State’s Project Narrative. His research has been called “life-changing” by Brené Brown and “mind blowing” by Malcolm Gladwell; has been endorsed by psychologists, neuroscientists, and doctors such as Martin Seligman and Antonio Damasio; and has been supported by institutions ranging from the National Science Foundation to the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. In 2023, he was awarded the Commendation Medal by the U.S. Army for his “groundbreaking research” with U.S. Army Special Operations into primal intelligence. His latest book is called Primal Intelligence: You Are Smarter Than You Know. There are very few books or writers who have affected me as much as Angus and this book have. In the few weeks since I have read it, my coaching has changed. My thoughts about intuition, imagination and emotion have changed. I’ve watched close to 20 videos featuring Angus on youtube… and I don’t typically ever watch that many videos about one person. Dr. Fletcher says that as humans, we think in story, not in words or pictures. He has plenty of research and street cred to back this up. Hollywood studios consult with him regularly. In addition to everything else, he’s a screenwriter, and a very compelling author. I could go on and on but that wouldn’t leave much time for us to talk, would it? So I will start with something familiar, and soon you will discover how mind-blowingly different some of Angus’s groundbreaking ideas are. But first, the amazingly familiar part… Copy is powerful. You’re responsible for how you use what you hear on this podcast. Most of the time, common sense is all you need. But if you make extreme claims... and/or if you’re writing copy for offers in highly regulated industries like health, finance, and business opportunity... you may want to get a legal review after you write and before you start using your copy. My larger clients do this all the time. 1. A lot of people in the direct marketing community have felt boxed-in by the conventional wisdom that the only true kind of story is a hero’s journey. I believe you have a very different point of view about stories, that includes that anatomy of the brain. Could you tell us about it? 2. Let’s talk about primal intelligence. When I first found out about your book and before I read it, my guess about primal intelligence was, well, pretty primal. Lizard brain stuff. That is, the animal description that you either mate with something, or you kill it, or you eat it. You have a different and I think much more sophisticated and I would say much more useful definition of primal intelligence and it has to do with four qualities of thinking that have nothing to do with logic. Could you talk about that? 3. Our listeners are copywriters and business owners who use direct response copy in their businesses. Pragmatic creativity is high on the list of capabilities people always want to increase. Could you share your thoughts on what creativity is, from the point of view of primal intelligence? And how to increase our abilities to be creative? 4. In your book there’s a surprisingly long list of people, including politicians, scientists and even a famous classical composer, as well as writers, who have mentioned Shakespeare as a major influence in their lives. What is it about Shakespeare’s work that is so valuable to all these people? 5. Can you give us some more tips about using stories in our content and advertising that will capture people’s attention and help us with our businesses? 6. Tell us about your work with Army special operators? 7. Would you like to give us a preview of the book Primal Intelligence? Links: Primal Intelligence https://www.amazon.com/Primal-Intelligence-Smarter-Than-Know/dp/0593715306 Angus’s LinkedIn Address https://www.linkedin.com/in/angus-fletcher-99713617/ Download.

A lot of people struggle with email marketing. Today’s special guest, Tom Ruwitch, has been at it for a quarter of a century… and he’s discovered some pretty interesting things about using stories to sell, as well. In 2001, Tom founded an email marketing business called MarketVolt. This was very early in the online business revolution. His company licensed their software to businesses worldwide, and used it themselves as part of a full-service agency. He sold the business in 2019. In 2021, Tom launched Implementum, a marketing platform that creates strategy, done-for-you custom campaigns, and provides training. We’ll talk about that, but first we’re going to talk about his impressive and very useful new book, Story Power Marketing. His simple and practical approach puts storytelling in marketing within the reach of just about anyone, whether you consider yourself a storyteller or not. Links: Story Power Marketing: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1964046335 Get a free copy at https://yourgiftfromtom.com/david Tom’s Website: https://storypowermarketing.com/ Download.

As we record this in mid-October, the world has without a doubt gone absolutely bonkers over AI. People are making all kinds of extreme predictions: Some see a heaven on Earth in a future with AI, and others confidently predict unmitigated disaster. But how many of these people are talking from actual in-the-trenches experience? Who can take the long view based on what they’ve actually done and seen… and an informed view of what’s possible for the future? I personally know only one person who fills that bill, and he’s our returning champion. He’s Sam Woods, our very special guest today. Sam has been in the game for nine years, while most of us haven’t been there half as long. In fact, when it comes to AI and copywriting, I don’t know of anyone who’s been in it longer than Sam has. He got started with machine learning in 2016 and generative AI in 2019. He was a pioneer in prompt engineering for AI copywriting, and marketing. Sam has advised Fortune 1,000 companies and teams across the world, as well as advised and consulted with CEOs and other C-Suite executives. He describes himself as “a strategic AI architect who advises C-Suite leaders on turning artificial intelligence into their most powerful competitive advantage.” But more important to us, he’s a seasoned and successful expert using AI for writing copy that gets results. Who better than that to help us see the bigger picture? Sam’s website: https://samueljwoods.com/ Other resources: https://bionicbusiness.com https://www.copywriting.ai/ Download.

Our guest today does something I’ve been looking for in a guest on this podcast for a long time–he helps beginning copywriters get started and become success. Matthew Volkwyn is a coach, copywriter, marketer and entrepreneur. He doesn’t just talk the talk; he walks the walk. Matt has helped dozens of business coaches rapidly grow their own businesses with email marketing, a he’s built three six-figure businesses of his own. I invited Matt on after he had me as a guest on his podcast, and I found out he coaches beginning copywriters, which I don’t do myself, since my clients are more experienced copywriters and business owners who use copy. I suggested he come on and we have a nuts and bolts conversation about coaching copywriters, and he readily agreed. Matthew’s links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/matthewjvolkwyn Copy Systems: https://www.skool.com/copysystems/about Copy Dojo: https://www.copydojo.com/ Download.

Have you ever been in a meeting where people are brainstorming ideas, and each idea is more idiotic and off-target than the last one? It has happened to all of us. And if you’re an experienced copywriter, sometimes it’s hard to bite your tongue. Because the cheerful but inexperienced leader of the meeting has announced a rule: “There are no bad ideas!” Well, yes there are. In that meeting, you just heard a whole pile of them. I can almost guarantee what the problem was. There are several steps, including a crucial step, that everyone in the meeting never took. Falling in love with uninformed, aimless creativity is one of the biggest causes of wasted advertising dollars imaginable. And I’m going to tell you that missing piece, that missing step. I can’t promise that everyone in the next meeting will take it ahead of time. But if they do, I promise you’ll get much better ideas, even if you’re the only copywriter there. Books: Applied Imagination, by Alex Osborn https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009CXTZ84/ Advertising Headlines That Make You Rich, by David Garfinkel https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00513MQ2G Download.

Legendary NY Yankee Yogi Berra said it best: “It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future.” He’s right, you know. But there’s one important exception, and I don’t blame Yogi because, as talented a player and a coach as he was, Yogi wasn’t a copywriter. So he didn’t know about the important exception we’ll talk about today: showing your prospect a compelling future. Not every copywriter does this, but if you don’t, you’re missing out… on conversions. And even if you do, we’re going to talk about a better way to show a compelling future than most people are currently using. If you like the stories on today’s show and you’d like to find out about a lot more, that will really power up your copy, let me invite you to check out my book The Persuasion Story Code. It’s on Amazon and we’ll put a link in the show notes. The Persuasion Story Code https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ Download.