TrustTalk - It's all about Trust

My guest today, Gert Tinggaard Svendsen challenges one of the most common myths about high-trust societies: that trust is cultural or “in the DNA.” In Denmark, he argues, trust is built, not inherited. It grows from institutions, incentives, and everyday experiences of fairness. He defines trust in practical terms: the likelihood of being cheated. When corruption is low and the rule of law applies equally, people learn that cooperation usually pays. That is why corruption is so destructive, it signals that some people are above the rules, and once that belief takes hold, trust quickly erodes. Much of Denmark’s resilience, Gert explains, comes from long traditions of face-to-face trade and strong social norms. People learned that cheating carried social costs. That still matters today. Most people are what he calls “hard riders”: willing to cooperate and contribute. Trust survives because “tough riders” step in when someone breaks the rules, correcting behavior before it spreads. The same logic applies to politics. High trust makes consensus possible. Citizens carry a lifetime record of successful cooperation — a “trust rucksack” — which makes compromise feel safe. Compared with the Netherlands, Gert sees Denmark as less polarized, partly because political dialogue remains strong even with extreme parties. Strong institutions are just as important. Low corruption and real meritocracy allow people to believe the system is fair. In welfare states, this is crucial: citizens must trust that taxes are used well and that everyone who can contribute does so. When that balance holds, welfare becomes a form of collective insurance rather than a source of resentment. Gert warns against over-control. Treating everyone as a potential cheat undermines trust and raises costs. As he puts it: 100 percent control equals zero trust. The biggest long-term risks for Denmark are creeping bureaucracy, centralization of power, and declining face-to-face interaction. Trust, he says, is like a winning sports team — it only lasts if you keep training. Once taken for granted, it can disappear faster than anyone expects.

On Christmas Eve, Santa Claus joins TrustTalk to discuss trust, doubt, and why listening to ourselves and to others matters as we look ahead to a new year, referring to Rudyard Kipling’s poem "If" on how to be confident without ignoring the doubts of others.

Our guest, Mara Revkin, a leading scholar of governance and justice in conflict zones, talks about how civilians make trust decisions when the state collapses and armed groups take control. Drawing on fieldwork and survey research in places such as Mosul, this conversation challenges the idea that trust in wartime is driven by ideology or belief. Instead, it shows how trust under extreme conditions is often pragmatic. Civilians compare dangerous alternatives and look for the authority that appears more predictable, less arbitrary, and more likely to follow its own rules. The episode explores why predictability and procedural fairness can matter more than political values or formal freedoms. Even harsh systems of rule may generate compliance when courts function quickly, corruption is limited, and rules are applied consistently. This does not produce genuine legitimacy, but it can feel safer than alternatives marked by chaos or bribery. We also discuss how civilians navigate situations of competitive governance, where states and armed groups both claim authority. Trust becomes relative rather than absolute and is shaped by everyday experiences with justice, security, and basic services. This form of trust is fragile and erodes quickly when governance becomes more coercive or unpredictable. The conversation examines how military conduct affects civilian perceptions during active conflict. Civilians judge armed actors by perceived intent, proportionality, and communication. Harm that is poorly explained or left uncompensated can undermine trust, even when unintended, while material compensation often matters more than apologies alone. Finally, the episode turns to post-conflict justice and reintegration. Externally imposed solutions often struggle to gain trust when communities are excluded from their design. While rehabilitation, apologies, and compensation can help rebuild social relations, there are limits shaped by the severity of past harm and time. A central insight runs throughout the episode: trust in wartime is not about shared values or moral approval, but about survival and predictability when every option is risky.

Trust isn’t tested in calm moments; it’s exposed when leaders face uncertainty, conflicting demands, and real human consequences. This episode traces that reality across multiple organizations and industries. We look at Boeing, where leaders underestimated the depth and duration of a crisis that reshaped global aviation trust. We examine Nokia’s Bochum layoffs, a case that shows how a single restructuring decision can destroy trust not only with employees but with governments and the public. We also dive into Twiddy’s pandemic playbook, where open communication became a lifeline; Itochu’s long-term social commitments, which contrast sharply with Western quarterly pressures; and the Financial Times’ transparent approach to generative AI, setting a new benchmark for media trust. Together, these cases reveal patterns: leaders often misjudge crises, overlook human impact, and underestimate how long it truly takes to repair trust, yet the organizations that get it right show that trust can be a real competitive advantage.

Trust isn’t tested in calm moments; it’s exposed when leaders face uncertainty, conflicting demands, and real human consequences. This episode traces that reality across multiple organizations and industries. We look at Boeing, where leaders underestimated the depth and duration of a crisis that reshaped global aviation trust. We examine Nokia’s Bochum layoffs, a case that shows how a single restructuring decision can destroy trust not only with employees but with governments and the public. We also dive into Twiddy’s pandemic playbook, where open communication became a lifeline; Itochu’s long-term social commitments, which contrast sharply with Western quarterly pressures; and the Financial Times’ transparent approach to generative AI, setting a new benchmark for media trust. Together, these cases reveal patterns: leaders often misjudge crises, overlook human impact, and underestimate how long it truly takes to repair trust, yet the organizations that get it right show that trust can be a real competitive advantage.

Our guest, Kathryn Judge from Columbia Law School, explores how trust quietly sustains the financial system and why it becomes most visible when things start to break. She explains that in finance, trust means acting despite incomplete information. Depositors often have little insight into the health of their bank, yet they continue to keep money there, relying on signals, habits, and confidence. When that confidence falters, trust does not fade slowly. It snaps, as seen in the rapid bank runs of 2023. Judge points out that technology accelerates these reactions, while strong relationships, particularly in community banking, can still hold panic at bay. We examine how post-2008 rules improved resilience but also created expectations that governments will always intervene. That expectation has its own dangers. If markets believe support is guaranteed, discipline erodes, and when the government reaches its limits, panic can spread even faster. Kathryn stresses that credible transparency paired with the ability to act remains essential. She highlights the successful stress tests after the financial crisis as a rare example where disclosure built trust instead of shaking it. Balance sheet strength, liquidity, and established human relationships continue to be powerful stabilizers. We discuss the current political environment and the pressures facing central banks. The Federal Reserve’s independence, she notes, has always been fragile, designed to avoid short-term political influence over monetary policy. Once doubt about that independence grows, long-term inflation expectations and sovereign credibility can shift, which households eventually feel in the form of higher prices, interest rates, and economic uncertainty. Kate Judge also touches on her work on the middleman economy, describing how long supply chains and platform-based systems create efficiency but reduce direct connection. Efficiency comes with fragility, and the loss of human connection makes trust harder to form and easier to lose. Toward the end of the conversation, we move to Europe and the debate over Eurobonds. She explains that shared debt across EU member states could deepen trust and strengthen the financial system if supported by genuine political commitment. At the same time, linking national financial destinies increases scrutiny and potential friction. Trust and vulnerability rise together, and success would depend on a shared willingness to stand together in good times and in crisis. Her core message is straightforward: trust makes finance work until the moment it breaks, and rebuilding it is far harder than maintaining it. Real stability comes from credible commitments, transparency paired with action, and deeper human and institutional relationships.  

Trust in institutions, says Chris Long, professor at St. John’s University in New York City and a leading scholar on trust, control, and institutional contradictions, erodes when there’s a gap between what organizations say and what they actually do. These “institutional contradictions”, when stated values and real-world behaviour diverge, create confusion and cynicism among citizens and employees alike. In this conversation, Chris explores why such contradictions are so damaging, how they emerge, and what leaders can do to repair the trust that’s lost as a result. He refers to striking examples: from the Dutch childcare benefits scandal (het Toeslagenschandaal), where automated systems falsely labeled thousands of families as fraudsters, often targeting those with foreign-sounding names, to the Volkswagen emissions case, Germany’s Wirecard collapse, and earlier accounting scandals such as Arthur Andersen. These moments, he argues, are not just technical failures but moral ones: “Institutions must first acknowledge what went wrong, in detail, and explain the logic that led to it. Only then can corrective actions sound credible.” They show how technology, bureaucracy, and misaligned incentives can devastate public trust together. Chris also discusses the fine line between control and trust inside organizations. After Covid, many leaders demanded employees return to the office without consultation, framing control as discipline rather than dialogue. Absolute trust, he insists, grows when people are given a voice and when leaders show vulnerability, asking for people’s opinions, and showing how those opinions shape their decisions. From the Tylenol crisis of the 1980s to modern corporate and political scandals, Chris’s message is consistent: trust is rebuilt only through visible accountability, transparency, and shared ownership of mistakes.

Few people stand closer to the intersection of politics and justice than prosecutors. In this episode, former federal prosecutor and Columbia Law School professor Dan Richman discusses why public trust is both the backbone of the justice system and its most fragile component. He explains how prosecutors have a uniquely delicate role in a democracy: they help build public trust, yet depend on that same trust to do their job. When politics begins to influence decisions about who is charged and who isn’t, the credibility of the entire system is at risk. Drawing on his New York Times op-ed, Dan reflects on how the Justice Department’s credibility weakened during the Trump years as prosecutors and FBI agents faced political pressure and courtroom integrity gave way to partisanship. He discusses how prosecutorial choices shape people’s sense of fairness, why complete transparency isn’t always possible, and how difficult it is to remain accountable without turning justice into a political issue. This conversation offers a clear and honest examination of what happens when trust in law enforcement begins to erode, and why the integrity of prosecutors is crucial to maintaining any democracy grounded in the rule of law.

Our guest in this episode is Lord Jonathan Sumption, former Justice of the UK Supreme Court, acclaimed historian, and one of Britain’s leading public voices on law and democracy. The conversation explores the uneasy boundary between law and politics. Sumption reflects on the long history of the U.S. Supreme Court as a political actor, from the Lochner era’s resistance to worker protections, through clashes with Roosevelt’s New Deal, to the landmark Brown v. Board of Education decision on school segregation. He examines the controversies of Roe v. Wade and its recent reversal, warning that both decisions undermined trust in different ways. Lord Sumption also considers how courts respond when politics fails, the role of judicial appointments in shaping independence, and why democracies today struggle with expectations they cannot meet. Despite widespread skepticism, he insists that neutrality is not a myth: judges can set aside personal opinions, and trust in courts depends on their ability to do so. This episode offers a sobering yet hopeful look at the fragile balance between courts, politics, and public trust and why defending judicial neutrality is essential for the future of democracy.

Our guest is Charles Feltman, founder of Insight Coaching and author of The Thin Book of Trust. Charles has spent decades helping leaders and teams strengthen their ability to lead through trust. He explains how trust is not built in theory but in everyday situations where it can grow or erode, in vague requests, unclear feedback, or the rush to move too fast at work. His framework is simple: trust rests on care, sincerity, reliability, and competence. Miss one, and trust wobbles, though care, knowing someone has your back, often matters most. Charles shares how slowing down just enough to clarify commitments can prevent broken promises, how disagreements can become opportunities rather than breakdowns, and how anxiety often primes us for distrust unless we pause to “trust wisely.” This conversation is full of practical insights you can use right away, showing that trust is built, or lost, in the small choices we make every day.

My guest, Tiziana Gaito explores what happens when a company caught in a sustainability scandal loses the trust of its stakeholders, and isn’t even believed when trying to make amends. Rather than offering a simple story of repair, it delves into the deeper dynamics of distrust: how it forms, why it lingers, and what makes it fundamentally different from trust that’s merely been shaken. The conversation traces the organization’s journey through a prolonged period of mutual suspicion, showing how clashing values and perceived malevolence fueled tensions on both sides. Traditional approaches to trust repair proved ineffective, as stakeholders questioned the company’s intentions and withdrew from dialogue altogether. It was only when a credible third party stepped in, neutral and trusted by both sides, that limited re-engagement became possible. Even then, what emerged wasn’t full trust, but a fragile acceptance marked by continued scrutiny and doubt. Along the way, the episode reveals why internal coherence is crucial to external credibility, why front-stage communication must be matched by backstage relational work, and why, in moments of deep distrust, listening often matters more than messaging. It’s a candid look at the emotional and organizational complexity of restoring broken relationships.

Our guest today is Roger Mayer, one of the most influential scholars in the field of trust and co-creator of a widely cited model of organizational trust. After attending Roger's presentation at the FINT Conference in Genoa, Italy, podcast host Severin de Wit sat down with him for a conversation on the evolving nature of trust and the surprising role that suspicion plays within it. The conversation begins with two striking images from Mayer’s FINT talk: HAL 9000, the eerily calm AI from the movie "2001: A Space Odyssey", and the Shoggoth, a chaotic, shapeshifting creature recently adopted as a meme in AI circles. Mayer uses these metaphors to illustrate a central dilemma: as AI systems become more powerful and autonomous, how do we trust something we don’t fully understand? Mayer introduces the concept of state-level suspicion, based on research by Bobko, Barelka, and Hirshfield. He explains that suspicion isn’t just a gut feeling; it’s a cognitive state involving uncertainty, heightened awareness, and the perception of possible harm. Far from being purely negative, suspicion may serve as a protective and even constructive force in complex organizational settings. A major focus of the episode is what Mayer calls Organizational Dissociative Identity Disorder (ODID). In this phenomenon, organizations send conflicting signals to employees, behave inconsistently, or act as if they have “multiple personalities.” Whether caused by mergers, mission drift, or rogue internal actors, ODID can undermine trust and leave employees feeling destabilized. Roger discusses how AI can further complicate this dynamic when its decision-making processes are opaque or misaligned with human expectations. Roger Mayer previously appeared on TrustTalk in our March 13, 2024 episode, where we explored the foundations of his trust model. In this follow-up conversation, we focus on the emerging tensions between trust, technology, and organizational coherence.

What happens to global trade when nations stop trusting each other? Our guest, Simon Evenett, Professor of Geopolitics and Strategy at IMD and co-chair of the World Economic Forum’s Global Future Council on Trade and Investment, offers a compelling look at how trust—or the erosion of it—is transforming the global trading system. He explains that international commerce has always depended on a degree of trust, even with rules in place. Since no rulebook is ever complete, trust and reputation step in to keep the system functioning. Evenett reflects on the shift from trade as a cooperative force to trade as a geopolitical weapon. Governments increasingly use export controls and trade restrictions to serve foreign policy and national security goals, and global institutions like the WTO are struggling to keep up. The WTO, once a cornerstone of global trade, is now weakened, especially in areas where rules on export controls are thin or unenforceable. He also examines the fallout from recent U.S. policies, particularly the “America First” agenda, which has eroded trust in the U.S. as a reliable trading partner. On the business side, Evenett notes that companies operating across borders are placing a growing premium on reliability. In today’s unpredictable world, trust has become a competitive advantage. While some global trade remains essential—such as in raw materials—many firms are beginning to favor regional supply chains where political stability and trust are stronger. Evenett believes that rebuilding global trust won't necessarily require new institutions but rather a government recommitment to stable, predictable trade policies. He sees promise in smaller coalitions of like-minded countries forming “oases of stability” in an otherwise fragmented trade landscape. His closing advice to future policymakers: spend more time understanding how businesses work. Trade policy detached from commercial realities risks is doing more harm than good.

Our guest today is Eliot Higgins, founder of Bellingcat, the groundbreaking open-source collective that has transformed investigative journalism. From uncovering the truth behind the downing of MH17 to documenting war crimes and exposing global disinformation campaigns, Bellingcat demonstrates how ordinary citizens, equipped with digital tools, can challenge the narratives of the powerful. Eliot recounts his unconventional path into investigative journalism, his motivations for launching Bellingcat, and the organization’s mission to make evidence-based inquiry accessible to all. He reflects on the fragile state of public trust, the manipulation of truth in the digital age, and the ethical tightrope walked by journalists today. This conversation dives into the challenges of verifying facts in a landscape shaped by AI, deepfakes, and engagement-driven algorithms—and offers a hopeful vision for how transparency, critical thinking, and a new generation of citizen investigators can safeguard the future of democratic discourse. A must-listen for anyone passionate about the power and purpose of investigative journalism in turbulent times.  

Today we talk with Musa al-Gharbi, sociologist and author of the book "We Have Never Been Woke", a sharp, no-nonsense look at how modern social justice talk often serves the powerful more than the people it's meant to help. Musa takes us inside the contradictions of elite spaces—like universities, corporate boardrooms, and media—where people often speak the language of progress and justice but still benefit from systems of inequality in quiet, everyday ways. He shares a revealing example from the book: in many affluent, progressive households, both partners work full-time and embrace feminist values. But maintaining that lifestyle often relies on hiring others, usually women from less privileged backgrounds, including undocumented immigrants, to handle childcare, housework, and elder care. These workers are often paid low wages and have little job security, which helps make the dual-income model financially sustainable. It raises uncomfortable questions about whose labor supports the professional success and ideals of equality in these households. We also talk about how the word woke, which began as a call within Black communities to stay alert to injustice, has been pulled into today’s culture wars. Musa explains that while the term was once embraced by progressives, it’s now often used as a political weapon. For some, woke signals awareness and moral concern; for others, it's become shorthand for elitism or overreach. He compares this shift to what happened with “political correctness” in the 1990s: both terms started with good intentions, but eventually became lightning rods in debates that often say more about power and identity than the issues themselves. The conversation turns to DEI programs (Diversity, Equity & Inclusion), which Musa says often do more for those already thriving in elite spaces than for those facing real structural barriers. Instead of leveling the playing field, these initiatives can reinforce existing hierarchies—especially when they focus more on image than impact. He also challenges the idea that people distrust institutions just because of fake news or social media. In many cases, people feel left out or ignored—not because they’ve been misled, but because the institutions don’t actually reflect their values or serve their needs. So what would it take to rebuild trust? Musa argues it’s not about using the right buzzwords—it’s about real accountability, more equal access to power, and practical policies that improve everyday lives.

Our guest today is Dana Pharant, a former professional dominatrix turned leadership coach, who shares her unique insights into the links between trust, power, and vulnerability. Drawing from her experience in the BDSM world and her work with corporate leaders, Dana explains that true leadership is not about domination, but about creating the space where people willingly place their trust in you. She emphasizes that trust is built through evidence and emotional safety, not through demands, fear, or blind faith. Dana discusses how surrender, often misunderstood as weakness, is actually a pathway to greater inner strength and more authentic leadership. She highlights how healthy trust dynamics involve setting clear boundaries, understanding consent deeply, and creating psychological safety both in intimate and professional environments. In a society that often separates sexuality from professional life, Dana argues for a more integrated approach, where acknowledging our desires and emotional truths leads to stronger, more trustworthy relationships at work. She also touches on the dangers of leadership rooted in unhealed trauma and explains why leaders must first do their inner work to foster real trust with their teams. Through her story and coaching philosophy, Dana challenges listeners to rethink power, lust, surrender, and authenticity—not as opposites of professionalism, but as essential elements for genuine human connection and leadership.

As US-China relations strain under rising economic rivalry, political divergence, and competing global visions, trust has become more elusive and essential. In this episode, Yale scholar Feng Zhang explores how trust between these two superpowers has frayed—not only through policy missteps and trade tensions, but also through fundamentally different understandings of global order. From Confucian relational thinking to China’s Global Civilization Initiative, Zhang offers a rare, nuanced perspective on how trust might be rebuilt—even amid deep ideological divides and historical grievances. He reflects on missed diplomatic opportunities, the fading promise of cooperation post-Sunnylands, and whether China’s ambitions can ever align with Western expectations of global leadership.

Our guest today is Anat Admati, professor of Finance and Economics at Stanford Graduate School of Business and co-author of The Bankers’ New Clothes. In this episode, she takes a critical look at trust in powerful institutions—arguing that, when misplaced, trust can be not only naive but dangerous. Anat explains that much of the financial system operates on the illusion of oversight and accountability. While many believe that governments, regulators, and boards are safeguarding the public interest, the reality is often one of regulatory capture, corporate self-interest, and systemic opacity. She challenges listeners to rethink assumptions about “checks and balances” in modern capitalism. She also reflects on the role of academics and public intellectuals in holding power to account. While research often stays behind paywalls or within elite circles, Admati calls on scholars to engage more directly with public discourse—and describes the resistance they often face when challenging the status quo. The conversation covers trust, leadership, corporate governance, and the failures of financial reform. Anat argues that effective change requires more than technical fixes—it requires moral courage, transparency, and a willingness to challenge institutional convenience.

Our guest today is Joel Brockner, a professor at Columbia Business School. He discusses the crucial role of procedural fairness in building trust. He explains that trust isn’t just about delivering results—it’s also about how decisions are made. When people feel treated fairly, they are more likely to accept difficult outcomes, whether in the workplace or beyond. Joel highlights that leaders often assume they act fairly, but employees may perceive things differently. Research shows that workers who feel disrespected during layoffs are 17 times more likely to sue, and similar patterns exist in medical malpractice cases. He stresses that clear, respectful communication and follow-up are key to ensuring fairness is both real and perceived. The discussion also explores trust and control, noting that leaders who involve employees in decision-making and explain their reasoning gain more engagement. Joel warns that job insecurity and uncertainty make fairness even more important, as people become highly sensitive to how they are treated during tough times. With the rise of remote work and AI-driven decisions, fairness challenges are growing. Remote employees may feel disconnected, and algorithm-based decisions can seem opaque. Leaders must actively communicate, clarify processes, and ensure transparency to maintain trust in these evolving environments. Joel’s key takeaway: Fairness is an investment that prevents bigger problems later. Leaders who cut corners on transparency and respect may save time in the short term, but they risk distrust, resistance, and legal issues in the long run. His advice? “Pay a little now, or pay a lot later.”

Our guest today is Zeke Hernandez, author of "The Truth About Immigration”. He powerfully challenges the myths and fears surrounding immigration, revealing the human stories and everyday realities behind the headlines. He argues that immigrants are often unfairly blamed for societal issues like crime, unemployment, and housing shortages, not because of facts but because of political narratives and media distortions that fuel fear. Hernandez explains that people often distrust immigrants simply because they don’t know them. Those who have little or no personal contact are more likely to believe stereotypes, while those who live and work alongside immigrants see them as neighbors, colleagues, and friends. They see them raising children, working hard, and contributing to their communities. Hernandez passionately illustrates how immigrants are woven into the fabric of our daily lives. He paints a vivid picture, asking listeners to think about their day—from breakfast to bedtime. The foods on our tables, the music that moves us, and the products we buy are all enriched by immigrant contributions. If we removed foods introduced by immigrants, more than half of our grocery carts would be empty. The music that makes us dance, cry, and celebrate—whether salsa, rock, or hip-hop—owes its vibrancy to immigrant cultures. Immigrants shape our tastes, our sounds, and our experiences, making life richer and more colorful. Challenging the notion that immigrants compete with native-born workers, Hernandez reveals the opposite: they complement the workforce, making economies stronger and more innovative. He shares compelling evidence that immigrants are more likely to start businesses, create new jobs, and drive technological advances. They pay more in taxes than they receive in public services, giving back to the very communities that sometimes fear them. Hernandez argues that the debate on immigration shouldn’t be about insiders versus outsiders but about seeing immigrants for who they truly are—people who bring hope, hard work, and heart to our societies. He criticizes the common narrative that frames immigrants as victims needing help, pointing out that this approach is politically ineffective and patronizing. Instead, he urges us to see immigration through a new lens—not as charity or humanitarian aid but as an economic opportunity that benefits everyone. He emphasizes that immigrants bring investment, innovation, and energy, helping economies grow and societies thrive. By recognizing the value immigrants add, we move beyond a narrative of pity or fear and toward one of shared prosperity. He shares the personal story of an undocumented barber in Philadelphia—an incredibly talented man with $200,000 saved to start his own business but unable to do so because of his legal status. This isn’t just about one man’s dream; it’s about the potential we lose when we reduce immigrants to stereotypes or political pawns. It’s about the jobs not created, the taxes not paid, and the communities not enriched because of restrictive immigration policies. Through his passionate words and powerful stories, Hernandez invites us to rethink the way we see immigration—not as a problem to be solved but as an opportunity to be embraced.