The Persuasion Occasion

David and Jasmine speak with Andy Prisco, a nationally recognized expert in anger, aggression, and violence response who founded Jumpstart Mastery. Andy trains law enforcement, mental health professionals, firefighters, and others in dealing with difficult and dangerous personalities. He shares how years working in psychosocial rehab shaped his practical approach to crisis intervention and what actually works when emotions spike fast. He outlines his structured method, VDSP: Validate, Defer, Suggest, Prompt, explaining why real de-escalation relies on simple, sequential steps.Andy shows how deliberately “starting with V” helps you regulate your own reaction while lowering the other person’s defensiveness. His agreement-first phrasing (“It sounds like…” or “I hear you…”) opens space to reframe the issue and steer someone toward safer behavior with concise suggestions and clear prompts.Andy applies these ideas to litigation, where aggressive opposing counsel and discovery fights can easily trigger anger. He breaks down how outrage disrupts judgment, why self-regulation is built through repetition, and how leading with validation often produces steadier interactions and better outcomes.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

David and Jasmine sit down with Ken Lopez, founder of Persuadius and a veteran litigation consultant known for blending law, psychology, and visual communication. Ken shares how a dislike of law school and an early obsession with computer animation led him to create trial graphics in the mid-1990s, eventually building A2L Consulting and later launching Persuadius to continue that work with a deeper focus on storytelling. Ken outlines what actually persuades in court: simple narratives, clear themes, and stories shaped around a hero’s journey rather than a strict timeline. He explains why fear-based arguments often overpower logic, how the “reptile” strategy works on both sides of the bar, and why bullet-heavy slides undermine comprehension. The conversation wraps with Ken’s take on AI, evolving juror expectations, and why speed, clarity, and strong visuals will matter even more in the years ahead.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Trial lawyer, mediator, and novelist Tim Reuben joins us to talk about persuasion, conflict, and the real-world experience behind his new legal thriller, Tequila. Tim has spent 40+ years in California courts as a civil litigator, mediator, arbitrator, and temporary judge. His experience gives him a clear, practical view of how people behave in high-pressure disputes.Much of our conversation centers on Tequila: a story of a powerful Mexican family, cartel violence, corporate tension, and the moral choices that drive people forward or break them apart. Tim explains how years of legal work shaped the book’s characters and dynamics, why he built a protagonist readers can root for, and how travel and research brought the settings to life.We also touch on how he carved out time to write, why he prefers virtual mediation, and what lawyers often misunderstand about preparing for negotiation versus preparing for court.Connect with Tim Reuben:Tim Reubens WebsiteTequila: A Story of Success, Love & Violencehttps://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Negotiation expert and keynote speaker Tony Perzow joins us to examine why most persuasion relies on fear, and how shifting to what he calls “magnetism” changes everything. Drawing from decades, training teams at Apple, Red Bull, and Rolls-Royce, Tony shows how standard tactics often fuel scarcity and ego instead of connection. He also shares the personal collapse that reshaped his work, losing nearly everything and rebuilding with a new approach.We look at the mindset behind effective negotiation, why fear drives so much behavior, and how it shows up at work and at home. Tony argues that influence doesn’t come from pushing, but from becoming someone others naturally want to agree with. He breaks down his “left road vs. right road” framework, the ego’s role in conflict, and how professionals can quickly recognize fear-based thinking. From reframing persuasion as a human practice to simple ways to choose love over fear,Tony offers grounded, accessible guidance. Whether you’re litigating, managing workplace tension, or aiming to communicate with more ease, this episode positions negotiation as a process built on awareness, calmness, and kindness, not scare tactics.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

John Lowry—expert negotiator and author of Negotiation Made Simple—joins us to break down the real dynamics of deal-making. Drawing from years as a litigator and founder of The Lowry Group, a negotiation collective, John explains why successful negotiation isn’t just about facts or law—it’s about people.We explore the mindset needed to negotiate effectively, how to manage emotion and ego on both sides of the table, and why influence often matters more than information. John also shares why most professionals are negotiating far more often than they realize—yet rarely receive formal training.From anchoring strategies to when to walk away from the table, John offers practical advice grounded in real-world experience. Whether you’re managing a legal case or just trying to get a deal done, this conversation reframes negotiation as a fundamentally human process.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Dr. George Bonanno, professor of psychology at Columbia University and head of the Loss, Trauma, and Emotion Lab, joins us to challenge everything you think you know about trauma and resilience.George shares how his unconventional path—from a troubled youth to working with mentally ill adults—led him to Yale and into a career studying how people respond to loss and extreme stress.His research shows that most people are more resilient than commonly believed, bouncing back from hardship without developing long-term trauma.In this conversation, we dig into why PTSD is often misunderstood, how flexibility (not stoicism) is the real marker of resilience, and why popular traits like “grit” or “toughness” don’t always predict who copes well.George also discusses effective PTSD treatments—from exposure therapy to psychedelics—and how laughter, reappraisal, and even “coping ugly” can be surprisingly powerful tools in recovery.Whether you’re dealing with loss, supporting someone through a tough time, or just trying to understand what real resilience looks like, this episode brings deep insight backed by decades of research.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Melissa Fortunato, a retired FBI special agent with over two decades of service, joins us to unpack what undercover operations and hostage negotiations can teach us about persuasion, human behavior, and trust-building—both in crisis and in daily life.Melissa shares how her background in psychology and counseling shaped her FBI career, taking her from a rape crisis center to undercover roles and high-stakes international negotiations. Walking us through jaw-dropping undercover assignments and negotiations, she describes posing as a bride-to-be in a fake wedding used to arrest international arms dealers and negotiating with the Taliban where the first offer (not hers) was “$30,000 and a goat.” Melissa explains why likability and emotional control are critical assets in any negotiation. She also discusses the differences and overlaps between the FBI and Harvard negotiation frameworks, and why understanding your own emotional triggers is the first step toward influencing others. She reflects on the power of empathy and connection in building rapport, whether it’s with organized crime figures or colleagues on a SWAT team.Whether you’re navigating tough business conversations, managing conflict at work, or just trying to get your teenager to do their homework, Melissa’s insights are sharp, surprising, and grounded in real-world experience.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Scott Tillema, co-founder of The Negotiations Collective and veteran hostage negotiator, joins us to share what crisis negotiations can teach us about influence, emotional control, and communication under pressure.He explains how a curiosity about human behavior led him into law enforcement and how he ultimately trained to handle life-or-death situations on a SWAT team. Scott reveals how empathy, timing, and strong listening skills help de-escalate tense encounters—and why those same skills are essential in business and everyday life.Scott also shares his four-part communication framework featured in his viral TEDx talk and walks us through how he applies negotiation strategies in both high-stakes scenarios and corporate boardrooms. Whether you’re a lawyer, a leader, or just someone navigating tough conversations, Scott’s practical tools can help you become more persuasive and grounded.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

In this episode, Joe Navarro, former FBI special agent and expert in nonverbal communication, shares insights from his unique background. He discusses how his early life in Cuba shaped his understanding of body language and the transition from intuitive observations to structured analysis. Navarro explores the critical role of body language in interviews, negotiations, and daily interactions, offering practical advice to enhance persuasive communication. He delves into cultural sensitivities, individual differences, and the psychology of first impressions and empathy, drawing from his experiences with high-stakes negotiations. Joe also examines the limitations of virtual communication, contrasting it with the evolutionary advantages of face-to-face interactions.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

In this conversation, Jeremy Hurewitz shares his unique journey from journalism to corporate security and describes how his experiences have shaped his understanding of persuasion and influence. He discusses his regular work with lawyers and law firms, explores the importance of active listening, radical empathy, and elicitation in sales, and introduces his “Crawl, Walk, Run” strategy for building client relationships.Jeremy emphasizes that both introverts and extroverts can excel in making connections. He tells us how personal passions can enhance connections and delves into behavioral science’s role in sales and negotiation, offering strategies for de-escalating emotionally charged situations. Our discussion also touches on negotiation tactics in global conflicts, emphasizing the need for emotional intelligence and relationship building in professional settings.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Our guest this week, John Blumberg, author of Persuasion Science for Trial Lawyers, describes how he incorporates developments in psychology, behavioral economics and decision making science into trial presentations.  He describes why information is accepted or rejected by jurors and how decisions by juries can be affected by cognitive overload, mental shortcuts, and biases. He emphasizes the importance of presenting information simply and empowering juries to make their own decisions in an advocates framework, rather avoiding telling jurors what to think in court. John also discusses the concept of false memories and the impact of preconceived beliefs on jury decisions and shares the top three tactics lawyers can use to be more persuasive.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Prof. John Dowling joins us on The Persuasion Occasion to discuss the science of memory and learning. We explore the mechanisms of neurotransmission and modulation in the brain and how long-term memories are formed through biochemical changes in the brain. John dives into the creative and reconstructive nature of memory, the role of attention and emotions in perception and memory, and the creative limitations of AI.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

This week we are joined by the nation’s most influential trial consultant, David Ball, to discuss the reptilian brain’s influence on legal decision-making. David shares his insights on understanding juror perspectives, addressing jurors’ potential biases, and comprehending why social media has been a game changer for trial lawyers. We also discuss the importance of clearly defining legal terms, framing narratives that resonate with jurors, and addressing bogus science in courtrooms.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Pat Pattison, a professor at Berklee College of Music, joins us this week to discuss the transformative impact of music and share insights on writing song lyrics, including structure, emotional tone, and intentionality. We discuss the significance of metaphor and authenticity in creating a cohesive and effective song. Pat also shares stories about his life in music, including jamming with the Doobie Brothers and Beach Boys, and discusses various songwriting techniques and trends, including Taylor Swift’s fast writing style.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

In part two with Jason Blume, we delve into the elements of a successful and persuasive song. Jason shares invaluable insights and practical advice that can translate from songwriting to any arena. Jason emphasizes that while good songs are plentiful, what sets successful ones apart is their unique angle and fresh approach. He also touches on the importance of song structure, explaining that most hit songs follow a few familiar structures as do persuasive arguments, necessary for effectively communicating a message to listeners.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Songwriter and instructor Jason Blume joins us to share his struggles and successes in negotiation within the music industry. He emphasizes the importance of persistence, networking, and collaboration. In discussing songwriting’s interplay between creativity and business, he highlights the need for songwriters to understand both aspects of the industry. We also dig into the key elements of persuasive songwriting, including melody, repetition, and relatable lyrics.  https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

On this show, Dan Ariely, Duke University professor and noted author, discusses behavioral psychology and persuasion, the dangers of misbelief, and the growing phenomenon of identity polarization in the digital age. Dan shares how misbelief can lead to a distorted view of reality, where everything is seen through the lens of a particular belief or perspective. We also dive into the significance of clear and concise communication in legal settings and the importance of navigating difficult conversations with empathy and respect. Dan is the James B. Duke Professor of Psychology & Behavioral Economics at Duke University and founded the Center for Advanced Hindsight. Dan also co-created the film documentary (Dis)Honesty: The Truth About Lies and wrote three-time New York Times bestsellers: Predictably Irrational, The Upside of Irrationality, and The Honest Truth About Dishonesty. His latest book, Misbelief: What Makes Rational People Believe Irrational Things, discusses the distorted lens through which people begin to view the world, reason about the world, and then describe the world to others.  “When we are stressed, we need  a story with a villain - and that story gives us a sense of control.” - Dan Ariely This week on The Persuasion Ocassion: How misinformation spreads and affects trust in societyWhy misbelief can lead to a distorted view of reality, where everything is seen through the lens of a particular belief or perspectiveDan explains how stress can lead to misbeliefs and a desire for controlWhy we have low resilience due to decreased time with friends and workplace social isolationWhat  the "funnel of misbelief" is and how it affects our psychologyHow social media can both facilitate and exacerbate the polarization of beliefsWhy it’s so important to address misinformation and polarization and the potential consequences for democracy and society if we don’tWhy the legal system needs to catch up with new forms of communication and deterrent mechanisms in the digital ageDan shares his story of growing half a beard after being injured 70% of his body and why it inspired him  to explore behavioral economicsThe illusion of explanatory depth, where people often overestimate their knowledgeWhy we should seek out diverse perspectives and engage in constructive dialogue with people from different backgrounds and beliefsConnect with Dan Ariely:Dan ArielyConnect with David and Jasmine:David T. Biderman at Perkins Coie Jasmine Wetherell at Perkins Coie https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

This week on The Persuasion Occasion, we welcome noted First Amendment lawyer Floyd Abrams as he recounts his representation of the New York Times in the historic legal battle over the publication of the Pentagon Papers. This 1971 case led to a groundbreaking U.S. Supreme Court ruling affecting freedom of the press. Floyd’s captivating storytelling and description reveals how this fight about fundamental constitutional issues unfolded in a charged political environment.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Join us for an engaging session with Kasia Jagodzinska, author of the Financial Times Guide to High Impact Negotiation. We discuss the negotiation process, how Kasia’s multicultural training served her in international negations at the United Nations, and the influence of psychology on negotiations. Kasia considers various negotiation strategies, including the Harvard Win/Win teaching and the FBI’s strategies for crisis negotiations, and observations on new technology.As an associate professor in negotiations at the University of Neuchatel, and senior trainer at the Schranner Negotiation Institute, Kasia is recognized as a national expert to the European Parliament on cross-border mediations and served as a senior advisor to the United Nations in Geneva. She is the author of several books on self-empowerment in high-stakes negotiations, including Negotiation Booster.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

Doug Wilson, and DWC President Michele Vives discuss the growth and downturns of mixed-use development. Michele shares her perspective on the dramatic loss in value of downtown real estate and the interconnectedness of commercial real estate and such community issues as homelessness, and our need to address these challenges. Doug, a 40-year veteran of real estate cycles, describes why he is optimistic about downtown urban development and investing in San Francisco properties when others are closing their doors.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services