Legal Design Podcast

As law schools are places for the development and betterment of society, shouldn’t they also foster creativity and innovation? Is law actually a design science? Should learning empathy be part of the law school curriculum? Is being student-friendly still a revolutionary act for law school teachers? And lastly, why should all lectures begin with a brief mindfulness session? We explore these questions and more in this episode with Sampo Mielityinen, a law teacher and developer of legal learning. Sampo is currently the head of the master’s program in legal design at Laurea University of Applied Sciences. Before this, Sampo worked as a teacher and teacher trainer at several Finnish universities, where he earned a reputation as an exceptionally innovative and student-friendly law school pedagogue. Sampo shares how he manifests his core values of teaching—creativity, playfulness, and presence—in practice, and how he sees the role of design in enhancing learning experiences. We also discuss what design can offer for legal education in general: various new models and tools to create something new, and perspectives on the human experience, to mention a few. Furthermore, Sampo talks about the legal design master’s program at Laurea and what he has learned about legal design during his first six months as the head of the program. We also hear some initial results from a survey conducted among the program's alumni and learn how students who have graduated from the program view its impact on their careers. Tune in to hear more!

Many contracts can be really complicated, especially the ones used in industries like construction. They are known to be long and complex, making them difficult to understand and comply with. These contracts are often designed by a lawyer for another lawyer, with potential disputes in mind. This kind of contracting doesn't really support the end user in their daily activities so it's time to make changes! The field of contract design is dedicated to transforming these kinds of risk-averse and lawyer-centric contracting practices. It promotes a more proactive and user-centric approach to contracting where contracts are perceived not just as something to be shoved in the drawer, but rather as tools that can guide, support and empower the businesses. In this episode we meet with Sarah Fox, a contract simplification specialist and the creator of the 500 word contract. Having decades of experience as a construction lawyer, Sarah knows how bad contracts can cost time, money, deals and relationships. With her simplified contract design model she advocates for more meaningful and user-friendly contracts that help streamline deals, enhance customer relations, and still keep everyone protected. Sarah shares with us how she came up with the idea of the 500 word contract and what kind of feedback she has since received from users and other lawyers. We also hear her tips for contract simplification and how to use them in redesigning other types of legal information as well. And of course, we also discuss the future of contract design with AI. Tune in to hear more! In this episode we meet with Sarah Fox, a contract simplification specialist and the creator of the 500 word contract. Sarah shares with us how she came up with the idea of the 500 word contract and what kind of feedback she has since received from users and other lawyers. We also hear her tips for contract simplification and how to use them in redesigning other types of legal information as well. And of course, we also discuss the future of contract design with AI. Tune in to hear more! Sarah Fox is a recovering lawyer transforming the way people do business. After decades dealing with huge deals in the construction sector, she realised that long, complex and bad contracts were costing time, money, deals and relationships. And after all that, they were usually just shoved in a drawer! There was a better way. Now Sarah advocates for short, simple contracts of less than 500 words. And delivers keynotes that inspire people across industry how to streamline deals and enhance customer relations with contracts that represent their values, embed trust, and keep everyone protected.

The ability to tell stories is what distinguishes us humans from other living creatures. We think, remember and pass on information in the form of storytelling. It’s no wonder, then, that storytelling is also a powerful method in design. It helps make sense of the world, empathize with different perspectives and simplify complexity. Law and legal work are no exceptions, as legal professionals benefit from good storytelling skills too. In the context of law and legal design, storytelling can help make people’s experiences of the law and justice visible and relatable, and help understand what measures are needed to fill gaps in the legal system.   In this episode we deep dive into the world of storytelling with Senior Design Strategist Emily MacLoud and Principal Design Strategist Luke Thomas, both at Portable. Portable is an Australian-based design agency specialized in using design and technology to create positive impact in areas like justice, public sector, mental health and more. With Emily and Luke, we discuss the elements of a good story and how to craft one for the purposes of legal storytelling. Emily and Luke also share their insights on using design tools like user journey maps in story building, and how to address sensitive topics in law with storytelling.   But does a story need to have a happy ending? And who is Becky, and what does she use storytelling for? Tune in to find out.

The majority of people in need of legal help do not turn to formal legal services, such as going to court. Research indicates that this is a global phenomenon: those who seek to solve their legal problems often turn to their social circles and other informal sources of information instead. By doing so, people look for advice that is precise, tested, and socially approved, making it relevant and practical for their own personal situation. However, many legal innovation efforts seem to be focused on fine-tuning and polishing formal legal services, with fewer solutions aligning with how people really want and need their justice problems solved.  But how can we fill the 'engagement gap' between people and the legal system? What exactly does being people-centered entail? What should we pay attention to when seeking more systemic changes in law and access to justice? In this episode, we discuss these questions with the inspiring Zainab Malik, Senior Justice Sector Advisor at The Hague Institute for Innovation of Law (HiiL) and the leader of the Justice Innovation Labs. Zainab introduces us with case examples of HiiL's projects in Tunisia, Uganda, and Nigeria, alongside her insights into creating an enabling environment for legal innovation. We also discuss the role of technology in improving access to justice. Is it sensible to digitalize court services or make legal help apps when people lack access to basic commodities, such as mobile phones or electricity?

In this episode we venture one of the most classical examples of automating legal processes and talk about document automation. We are joined by the notorious guru of this field, Catherine Bamford of Bamlegal. Catherine shares with us her career story and what insights she has gained on her transformation journey from a lawyer to a legal engineer. We also hear why she is so passionate about document automation and what are the benefits for it. With over a decade of experience in digitalizing legal work, she tells her secrets on what to do and what to avoid in automation projects. We also learn why organizations should create and maintain contract playbooks. We won't miss the discussion on the role of AI and GPT tools in document automation either. Catherine explains whether human-made templates are still needed in the era of AI, or should we concentrate on prompting and training AI tools to raise ourselves to the next level in document drafting. We also hear how Catherine views the general impact of technology on legal work over the past decades. Has there been any significant milestones yet? Or are we lawyers still working like it was the 1970's?

We kick off the new season with Dan Riley and J.P. Rossi from Resol-VR. Resol-VR is an innovative tech company specialized in creating immersive and interactive solutions for the legal, insurance and law enforcement sector. We discuss how virtual reality can be used in various legal contexts, such as for presenting evidence at court or examining different scenarios for crime investigation. As we learn from Dan and J.P., virtual reality can be a particularly powerful tool when it comes to improving access to justice. Virtual courts or data visualizations not only make law and justice more accessible, but also enable new forms of collaboration and transparency, and help reduce the costs of dispute resolution. Importantly, virtual reality can also make us more empathetic. With immersive visualizations we can step into the shoes of “the other”, and experience events for example from the perspective of a physically impaired person. While the benefits of using virtual reality in the legal context become evident, there are also some concerns related to its reliability. Just like any data, also the data used for virtual reality simulations can be biased or flawed. How do we ensure that the visualizations convey the information as truthfully as possible? Are there some quality metrics for the safe use of virtual reality? We also discuss the threats and possibilities of AI in creating virtual reality content. But if courts become more virtual, do we lose an element of human connection in turn? And further, is there a risk virtual reality makes court proceedings too theatrical?  Listen to the episode to hear how Dan and J.P. respond to our queries.  

This is a Legal Design Podcast special episode in Finnish - dedicated to Finnish folks interested in legal design. But no worries our English speaking friends! We will be back with a new season starting in January 2024. *** Tässä podcast-sarjamme erikoisjaksossa keskustelemme legal designista, eli suomeksi oikeusmuotoilusta, kolmen suomalaisen legal design -pioneerin kanssa. Vierainamme ovat ennakoivan sopimisen ja sopimusmuotoilun uranuurtaja, Lapin yliopiston työelämäprofessori sekä Vaasan yliopiston yliopistotutkija Helena Haapio, Laurea Ammattikorkeakoulun oikeusmuotoilu-koulutusohjelman isä Jukka Linna sekä Juristin muotoilukoulun perustaja Hannele Korhonen.    Keskustelemme vieraidemme kanssa erityisesti oikeusmuotoilun taustasta ja tulevaisuudesta Suomessa. Helena kertoo miten kotimaisen ennakoivan oikeuden ja ennakoivan sopimisen 25-vuotinen tutkimus on osaltaan vaikuttanut oikeusmuotoiluilmiön syntyyn, ja Jukka avaa maailman ensimmäisen oikeusmuotoilun maisteritason koulutusohjelman, eli Laurea ammattikorkeakoulun oikeusmuotoilun ja oikeudellisen erityisosaamisen YAMK-koulutuksen alkutaivalta. Hannele kertoo puolestaan miten Juristin muotoilukoulu sai alkunsa ja millaisten muotoiluprojektien parissa hän on saanut työskennellä. Kuulemme myös miten vieraamme selittäisivät oikeusmuotoilun merkityksen kuuluisalle Pihtiputaan mummolle, sekä pohdimme kuka voi kutsua itseään oikeusmuotoilijaksi. Visioimme lopuksi oikeusmuotoilun tulevaisuutta suomalaisena vientituotteena. Miten oikeusmuotoilu onnistuu tekoälyn kanssa? Entä onko oikeusmuotoilusta apua ihmiskuntaa koettelevien isojen kysymysten, kuten ilmastonmuutoksen, ratkaisemisessa?

What makes people rethink their career choices and search for something different? The rapid technological development that makes old ways of working inefficient and pushes people to learn new skills? Maybe. But when talking about lawyers turning legal designers, it can also be about “the inner need for fulfillment of justice”. The use of human-centric, co-creative and interdisciplinary design methods can bring a new, more meaningful perspective also to everyday legal work. In this episode we meet Karol Valencia, Peru born legal designer and legal tech specialist currently living in Amsterdam, Holland. Karol is the founder and CEO of her legal design agency WOW Legal Experience. She also teaches and facilitates law students and legal teams about using design and technology in improving legal tools and services. As Karol opens up her career story, we hear what inspired her to swift from traditional lawyering to legal design, and how her journey has developed since that. Karol also tells about the ups and downs of being a legal design startup entrepreneur and how she sees the future of the legal design movement.

During this podcast series, we have discussed a lot about how to make Legal Design mainstream. Our this week's guest, Hannele Korhonen, believes that it can be done with educating people. However, Legal Design is not taught in many law schools yet, but learning happen mostly elsewhere.  In this episode, Hannele, the founder and legal designer shares the story and pedagogical philosophy behind Lawyers Design School. At Lawyers Design School, Hannele teaches the new ways of doing law to serve legal customers better and this way find more meaning and purpose to lawyers' work. Hannele believes in social learning that encourages interaction with others. This way, students will be preparing the skills they need to be successful at work, where most learning is done through on-the-job experiences and interaction with others. We also talk about curiosity and its meaning in design thinking processes. It takes a curios mind to be able to discover new possibilities. Lawyer's may be used to do things the same way and they already know how it will come out. But in being curios, lawyers and other legal professionals are able to discover how to do things in a new way with better, more human-centric and client-centric results.  In addition, together with Hannele, our hosts Henna and Nina share their experience and thoughts on their joint collaboration, Sustainable Futures by Legal Design, a virtual event that was held online in November 2021. Tune into hear how you can learn Legal Design!

Many people feel that terms and conditions of insurance contracts aren’t meant to be understood. It’s small print and full of industry specialized jargon, aiming at preventing legal risks, but, on the contrary, actually provoking them. People purchasing insurances that they don’t understand, causes problems on the next phases of the supply chain. All this makes the insurance industry the perfect candidate for legal design. This week we meet with Anthony Novaes, a Brazilian insurance lawyer and a legal designer who has conducted ground-breaking research on how legal design can improve insurance practices. Insurance law is a one of the heavily regulated areas of law, which implies that there are many interests involved which need balancing, and particular groups that need governmental protection (or governmental control). The problem of heavy regulation is that it makes the market complex and unpredictable to navigate, especially for anyone who doesn’t have the training for that. Legal design can be of great help to make insurances more functional, and also prevent disputes related to them. Legal design can also offer alternatives to traditional legal regulation, as it can help create policy measures that satisfy the needs of the stakeholders better. Anthony tells us what are the typical pain points in insurances and how to address them with the help of legal design. Anthony Novaes is a Brazilian Insurance, Reinsurance and Private Pensions Attorney. He is author of the first academic investigation on legal design applied to insurance and of articles focused on legal innovation, civil law, civil procedural law, legal design, and insurance. He was certified as a Legal Design Expert Practitioner by Legal Creatives. He is a teacher and coordinator of the course “Seguros 4.0” at Future Law, which offers the first discipline on legal design and insurance in the world.

The Brazilian legal system is facing many challenges and undergoing major changes due to application of new technologies. As we know, law itself changes slowly but legal design can assist in this change and bring out the positive. This week we talk to José Faleiros Jr., a Brazilian lawyer and the co-editor and co-author of the book "Legal Design: Teoria e Prática". José tells about the Brazilian legal system and its challenges. For example, in 2020 the Brazilian judicial system had 75 million legal processes lacking a solution. A solid judicial system is also crucial for democracy. And to be solid, the system needs to be efficient and trustworthy and this is where legal design can help. Tune in to hear how Legal Design is developing in Brazil! José Faleiros Jr. is a Brazilian lawyer and a Ph.D Candidate in Civil Law at the University of São Paulo and also a Ph.D Candidate in Law, Technology and Innovation at the Federal University of Minas Gerais, Brazil.

All of the companies write policies and tick the boxes to demonstrate their compliance and business ethics. But it's really the corporate culture that defines how compliant and ethical the organization actually is. Cultural beliefs and manners determine what is right and acceptable in organizations and whether or not we speak up if there is something unlawful or unethical going on.  For us humans it is quite challenging to become aware of our own behavioral patterns, yet realize we’re being part of and contributing to a “culture”, especially in the working life. Understanding the corporate culture and how it reflects the organizational values is vital but we also need to understand whether or not the employee experience matches with our desired culture.  Culture eats strategy for breakfast and culture either makes or breaks your organization but it's good to understand that it can be designed and re-designed. Tune in to our episode with Niina Ratsula. Niina Ratsula is an ethics, compliance and governance professional, with a strong focus on corporate cultures and internal control. Niina is known for “translating codes of conduct from paper into daily actions and decision making”.

We kick off the new season with Jim Chiang, the CEO and Founder of My Legal Einstein. Jim is an AI pioneer with over 20 years of experience in big data analytics and AI algorithm development. He walks us through how the Legal Industry could benefit from AI and how it will make law better for lawyers and the end-users of law. His examples are so practical that AI finally makes sense! But do us lawyers have to set our alarm clocks on for tomorrow or are the robots going to take over our jobs overnight? And what about legal designers, will AI and new technologies steal jobs from legal designers too?

Making legal information more comprehensible and easier to use is a central theme in legal design. It is also a topic that has recently gained increasing research interest, sparking new ideas on how to enhance the usability of contracts and other legal documents in practice. After all, as research has shown, understanding what a document says is all about human metacognition. If users are enabled to connect the content of a legal document with ideas that are meaningful to them, it can help avoid “cognitive accidents” and work as a proactive method to promote legal wellbeing of the users and other parties. When users can understand what is expected of them, legal conflicts and misbehavior due to misunderstandings are less likely to occur. In this episode we have the honor to interview two pioneering experts in the field of legal information design, Helena Haapio and Rob Waller. Helena Haapio is a lawyer and a contract strategist at Lexpert Ltd, and an associate professor of business law in the University of Vaasa, Finland. Rob Waller is an experienced information designer, researcher, consultant and a teacher, and the current President of the International Institute for Information Design. Rob and Helena share insights from their various projects and collaborations, like the contract simplification project with an energy industry facility and Canadian aboriginals. We also hear what proactive law is, and practical tips about how to improve the usability of legal documents. If you want to know what makes a good (legal) document, tune in!

Profound understanding of human behavior is a key to success in legal design. Yet legal design doesn’t necessarily aim to nudge people to certain choices, it still seeks to influence people’s behavior in a positive way. When people’s cognitive and emotional needs are being met and they can truly understand what is expected of them, they are more likely to make choices that support the legal wellbeing of themselves and others. Should every legal design team have their own neuroscientist then? Perhaps. At least they should hear what our guest in this episode has to say. In this episode we discuss the possibilities of neuroscience in legal design with neuroscientist Dominique Ashby. Dominique is a former lawyer, who decided to bring her first passion, neuroscience, into the business world. In her own consultancy company, Neuro@Work, Dominique advises organizations in change management using the power of neuroscience. She has also experience from working with legal design teams and explaining lawyers how brains work. Dominique tells us how neuroscience can help law to achieve it’s missions, and on the other hand, what are the perils of behavioral influencing. We also discuss the importance of brain health in work life. If you still brag with your working hours instead of your sleeping hours - this episode is for you!

Many people associate legal design with designing of contracts, but actually contract design is its own unique form of design that can have many other purposes than just making the legal aspects more understandable. Contracts can work as effective tools for preventing legal conflicts by supporting business, brand or social relations between contracting parties. However, these different purposes can be reached only when contracts are designed to fit them. In this last episode of the spring season we bust myths about contract and legal design with Stefania Passera. Stefania is an information designer and a legal design pioneer, who has designed contracts, policies and other legal documents more user-friendly for over 10 years.

Creativity is one of the most important skills for a modern lawyer. We all were born creative but somehow along the way many adults seem to have lost their creativity. But the good news is that creativity can be practised, just like lawyers practice law to become better at their field of law. Creativity and innovation are hard work and new ideas to make law better aren't born magically overnight. We might often think that changing law and the legal industry require BIG innovation, but what if thinking smaller and putting the oxygen mask on yourself first are the things to start with? In this episode Michele DeStefano shares her career story and encourages us all to embrace our people skills and creativity.  Michele is Professor of Law at the University of Miami and Faculty Chair in Harvard Law School’s Executive Education. She’s the founder of LawWithoutWalls and MoveLaw.

Law is a system interlinked to other systems in society. So when we try to make law better it only makes sense if we include other systems and disciplines in our change journey. No lawyer alone can change the legal system but every lawyer can participate by having an open mind and welcoming other disciplines into the space of law. Sometimes legal design is seen as the cure to all the problems within law, but it is not enough alone. We have to go beyond design. Legal design is gaining more and more attention and we have already seen some great projects in the past 10 years. But how to make sure that these aren’t just single projects happening here and there and standing on their own? What will it take to change the whole industry on a more systematic level towards human-centric law and legal services? Listen to Nóra Al Haider sharing her interesting career path and her insights about how to make the change happen and how to make sure that the decisions we make today will lead towards greater access to justice also in the future. Nóra Al Haider is the Policy and Design Lead at the Stanford Legal Design Lab.

Design thinking already shapes the way many legal businesses operate today but there is still a lot to do. Collecting and analyzing data will play a key role in future ready service firms but there is also a big demand for multidisciplinary teamwork and collaboration between firms that once were just rivals . Offering just legal services is outdated and law firms and other professional service firms are changing their mindset into offering solutions. But how to drive this change and make sure we are doing the right things right? How to start the innovation work? In this episode we talk about business models and how professional service firms can make sure that they are future ready. We also talk about being data driven and whether or not law firms should rely on data when planning for the future. Our guest today is Sebastian Hartmann from KPMG. Sebastian leads technology strategy at KPMG International and has wide experience on transformation in professional service firms. With his teams, he actively influences, shapes, leads and manages the strategies and resulting digital transformation journeys of people-centered and knowledge-driven organizations, e.g. at Fortune 500, DAX companies and leading B2B service providers.

Fulfilling the needs of end-users and involving them in the design process are fundamental principles of design. How well are these ideals applied when designing for children? By law children have a right to participate and a right to be heard in matters that concern them. However, it seems that there is a systemic bias excluding kiddos from our society to restricted areas, “kids’ corners”, that are not really designed with children in mind. The reality is that children use most of the same tools, services and apps adults use. When children’s perspectives are not taken into account as part of the design of our everyday things, we can’t know what kind of experiences children are exposed to, nor protect them from harmful exposures. In this episode we talk about the role of legal design in designing for children with Jonna Tötterman, a Design Lead and Co-Founder of D4CR, Designing for Children’s Rights Association. Jonna tells us why children should be considered as a stakeholder group by default, and how to make a kid participate in a design sprint. We also discuss why children’s ability to navigate in the digital world is often overestimated, and why apps and other digital tools should be designed in a way that kids can use them without adult supervision.