Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My friend Dr. Paul McDonugh (spine surgeon, married father of 4, Active LDS, Lives in Texas) joins us to talk about his insightful new book. Paul discusses why does Scripture present truths that contradict each other? For example: If God is perfectly consistent, why are his words so contradictory? We are told to trust completely—but also question, seek, and wrestle God commands us to ask, seek, and knock, yet many prayers go unanswered. God is good, but his creation is full of evil. Paul says that none are righteous, yet we are commanded to be perfect. We are saved by grace, but judged by our works. God loves all, but he makes the Israelites a chosen people. In his book, Paul confronts one of the most persistent challenges in scripture: the presence of seemingly opposing teachings that both claim divine authority. Rather than dismissing one side or forcing shallow harmony, this book demonstrates that these tensions are intentional, meaningful, and essential to understanding God’s plan. Paul’s approach helps readers discover that truth is not diminished by tension—it is deepened by it. This is a very unique, powerful, and much needed book for our faith community. I learned so much from Paul. I encourage everyone to listen to this episode and buy his book. Thank you, Paul, for writing this book—a labor of love. So glad to have you on the podcast. Links: Paul Book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0H833BLQ5/

** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call, text 988 ** My friend JaQuavious Harris (late 20s, lives in Utah, world class runner including a 2:13 marathon finish) joins us to share his story about Jesus being the center of everything and his invitation for all of us to do the same. JaQuavious shares: Growing up LDS in South Carolina. Mother had him at age 13 Love of running and making his way to BYU Argentina mission—come home to address mental health Coming out to himself (and then others) as gay How his BYU Eternal Families class and constant focus on straight marriage caused him to feel like an abomination leading to believe “I am going to hell and I’m living in hell” All this led to an unsuccessful suicide attempt Following all this, he took to social media to help other come unto Christ and find hope Wise and powerful words from his dying father in 2022 How people can better love and support him Why he stays an active Latter-day Saint His impactful and inspiriting mission to help others Thank you JaQuavious for being on the podcast. Your courage, heart, and goodness inspire me. You are so brave. Your story is helping so many know that God loves them and Christ should be the focus of our lives. I encourage everyone to listen/share JaQuavious’ podcast and follow his Instagram account. You are a good man JaQuavious (and a super-fast runner). Honored to have you on the show. Links: Instagram: @harrisjaquavious

My friends Patrick Mason (Holds the Leonard J. Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University) and Melissa Mason (Clinical Social Worker, Master of Social Work, Utah State University) join us to talk about their new book called “Rooted: Centering Christ in Everything” The authors share that too often, Latter-day Saints have centered their religious lives on rules, worthiness, obedience, institutional loyalty, and cultural expectations rather than on Jesus Christ Himself. They invite readers to rethink what it means to be a disciple of Christ—placing greater emphasis on grace, compassion, love, belonging, and the transforming power of Jesus Christ. Their message isn't that commandments, covenants, or Church participation don't matter. Rather, these things should point us toward Christ, not become substitutes for Him. They offer practical suggestions to bring Christ the focus of our church talks, lessons, conversation—and in all aspects of our lives. This is a super powerful podcast to help all of us better focus on Christ. Thank you, Melissa and Patick, for being on the podcast. I encourage everyone to read their book as we work to become a more Zion people. Links: Book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1639935703 New he was different as a child—but felt loved and supported by his family Didn’t fit in with the boys—had lots of girlfriends (but never romantic) Felt belonging with the high school swim team Went on a mission (still closeted) praying “God will finally cure this”—felt “tormented all the time” Great mission experience—felt brotherhood and belonging Crushing post-mission life at BYU realizing he is still gay and falling in love with a roommate Finally had the courage to talk to his BYU bishop about his attraction to men. Bishop rejected him and forced to withdraw from BYU Jess asks, “what do you do with the Bishop rejects you” and “not even worth trying to help” Come out to his parents Started to accept being gay and date men—that acceptance helped him to thrive in school and have hope Married Alex in 2015—great marriage “Fully embraced Babylon—eventually “life collapsed” Unconditional love from family and some spiritual experiences caused him to consider God and the Church again Starting to attend his San Diego Ward—deep feelings of belonging Incredible things his Ward did to help him and Alex feel welcome—including assignments for Jess like working tours for the San Diego Temple Open House Reading the Book of Mormon and knowing God loves Jess Non-agenda love from his LDS community to both him and Alex This is one of the best episodes we’ve recorded—Jess is one of my new heroes. Jess is honest about incredibility difficult church and extended family experiences, and how he has been able to get past those experiences to reconsider the Church again and is now feeling love, acceptance, and a needed member of the congregation. It is the best episode on what a ward family can do to support a couple in a same-sex marriage. Thank you, Jess, for being on the podcast. Your story will help so many. You are a good man with a great heart, testimony, and ability to give hope to others. Honored to have you on the podcast. Glad you and Alex have each other Thank you, listeners, for listening/sharing this episode. Links: YouTube: https://youtube.com/@sandiegodogdads Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dogtopians_of_san_diego Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jess.porter.77

My friend Thomas Hostetter (mid-30s, lives in southern Colorado, engaged to be married to his future husband, deep testimony of the Church) joins us to share his remarkable story, including: - Growing up and having an interest in men—but never realizing he was gay - After his mission, falling in love with his straight roommate, realizing he might be gay, and experiencing heartbreak when that friendship ended—driving him back into the closet and leading him to date women - Long journey dating women and not being able to make that work - Dating men and feeling genuine connection (romantic, emotional, and physical) - Deep testimony of the Church and desire for a long-term partnership - Meeting Al and falling in love—a beautiful and healthy relationship, especially after years of dating experience - Panic attack as he realized he was not going to be able to fully participate in the Church he believes to be true - His debut novel, *Grammar of the Scar* (see show notes) - Backstory of the name of his book—discussion of vocabulary and scars—super unique insights - Importance of personal revelation and his hope for the future This episode is full of unique insights to help other LGBTQ folks and all the rest of us. Thomas has been on this road for 20+ years and brings all his lived experiences to his new book and this podcast. Thank you, Thomas, for being on the podcast. You are inspiring. You are a good man, and I’m glad you and Al have found each other. I’m glad you have “someone who wants to love you back.” You are a good man. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode, and to read Thomas’s book. **Links** Thomas’s debut novel, *Grammar of the Scar*, by T.H. Calder, on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0HN8SLZZ6 Thomas on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thomash.hostetter YouTube of this podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRmvSvqs-zU

My friend Jess Porter (oldest of six, Hong Kong RM, married husband in 2015) joins us to share his super unique and remarkable story including: Knew he was different as a child—but felt loved and supported by his family Didn’t fit in with the boys—had lots of girlfriends (but never romantic) Felt belonging with the high school swim team Went on a mission (still closeted) praying “God will finally cure this”—felt “tormented all the time” Great mission experience—felt brotherhood and belonging Crushing post-mission life at BYU realizing he is still gay and falling in love with a roommate Finally had the courage to talk to his BYU bishop about his attraction to men. Bishop rejected him and forced to withdraw from BYU Jess asks, “what do you do with the Bishop rejects you” and “not even worth trying to help” Come out to his parents Started to accept being gay and date men—that acceptance helped him to thrive in school and have hope Married Alex in 2015—great marriage “Fully embraced Babylon—eventually “life collapsed” Unconditional love from family and some spiritual experiences caused him to consider God and the Church again Starting to attend his San Diego Ward—deep feelings of belonging Incredible things his Ward did to help him and Alex feel welcome—including assignments for Jess like working tours for the San Diego Temple Open House Reading the Book of Mormon and knowing God loves Jess Non-agenda love from his LDS community to both him and Alex This is one of the best episodes we’ve recorded—Jess is one of my new heroes. Jess is honest about incredibility difficult church and extended family experiences, and how he has been able to get past those experiences to reconsider the Church again and is now feeling love, acceptance, and a needed member of the congregation. It is the best episode on what a ward family can do to support a couple in a same-sex marriage. Thank you, Jess, for being on the podcast. Your story will help so many. You are a good man with a great heart, testimony, and ability to give hope to others. Honored to have you on the podcast. Glad you and Alex have each other Thank you, listeners, for listening/sharing this episode. Links: YouTube: https://youtube.com/@sandiegodogdads Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dogtopians_of_san_diego Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jess.porter.77 YouTube on this podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKHR7AOAbwg