Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My friend Gracee Purcell (BYU Psychology Grad, President of RaYnbow Collective, Activist, Engaged to be Married) joins us to share her story at BYU: Why she choose BYU Advice for other queer people considering Church-owned schools Roommates (mostly positive) Interactions with BYU administration Interactions with BYU professors Work of “RaYnbow Collective” to support queer BYU students Insights on the concept of “Safe Places” Thank you, Gracee, for being on the podcast and all your bridge building work to make this world a better place. You are doing so much good in our community and have a great life ahead of you. Congrats on your recent engagement. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode. Links: RaYnbow Collective Instagram: @raynbow.collective

** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text chat 988 ** My friend Bruce Butcher (late 50s, married father of three, active LDS) joins us in a powerful episode to share the following: Loving and accepting people in his life who are no longer in the Church “We don’t punish a man for his beliefs” Losing his wonderful son Taylor to suicide in June 2024 Taylor’s prayer “bless the sick and sad, help us to be the best versions of ourselves” Painful doctrine the Church used to teach about suicide—led to no hope Love of a mother is the most powerful force on earth Love of our Heavenly Mother is the most powerful force in heaven—she isn’t going to cut off any of Her children Excluding people is not Christ’s doctrine David Archuleta—“I’m still a fan” Being a cafeteria Mormon My apology to my LGBTQ friends I deeply loved listening to and learning from Bruce. If you are looking for more hope in your life, be more like Jesus, and love/accept people walking different roads, please listen to and share Bruce’s podcast. Thank you, Bruce, for being on the podcast. You are a good man—helping so many. I’m so sorry your good son Taylor is gone. Love Taylor's heart as reflected in the words of his prayer.

My friend Heather Sorensen (married mother of 4; grandmother of 14, early morning seminary teacher), joins us to share her story of losing her daughter Hannah in a traffic accident at age 15 in 2013. Heather talks about the initial and continued grief of her death and how she is navigating both holding her grief and her testimony of being with Hannah again. Heather talks about a dream she had before Hannah was born and that feeling returning during Hannah’s death. She also talks about losing her son Richard at birth. Heather talks about not being active in the Church for twenty years and her journey to return to the church and the importance of creating her identity rooted in Jesus Christ and invites us to do the same. Heather talks about her son Zachary’s cancer diagnosis during home MTC, fear she would lose another child, and Zachary’s recovery and serving a mission. Heather talks about why she decided to write a book about Hannah—called Dandelion Blessings—which is Hannah’s nickname. If you are looking for a genuine/honest story of intense grief—and finding hope/peace to move forward—please listen and share Heather’s podcast and book. Thank you, Heather, for your courage and vulnerability to be on the podcast. You are helping so many! Links: Dandelion Blessings (at Amazon): https://a.co/d/0eK9OYGy

My friend Mark White (professor, LMFT, aspiring ally, mid-60s, active LDS) joins us to talk about his new children’s book—which is focused on an 8-year-old’s decision about being baptized in the context of having two gay dads who attend church with her—and what we can do to be better allies/advocates to queer Latter-day Saints and their families. Mark shares the following: * Journey to be an aspiring ally/advocate * Clinical experience * His publishing company (Firefly Inkworks) and new book, Indigo’s Baptism * George Gerbner’s cultivation theory * The power of stories * Representation matters * To be seen * Future books * Need for all kinds of queer stories, including narratives for a book on LDS Trans and gender nonconforming persons Mark invites a discussion about how we can be a better ally/advocate (friend, parent, local leader, etc.), including asking our queer friends to let us know what they need and indicate whether we truly are an ally/advocate. The children of queer LDS parents are essentially invisible in LDS culture. Mark hopes Indigo's Baptism is a small step in increasing representation. He desires we use all the resources available to better support our queer friends. And if you are queer or have queer parent(s), Mark prays his work will give you hope as he talks about his love for and support of the queer community. Please contact him if you are interested in publishing a book or are willing to contribute a narrative to the book he and colleagues are working on that focuses on the needs and stories of current or former members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who are trans and gender nonconforming. Thank you, Mark, for being on the podcast. You are making a difference. You give me hope. Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61587754991132 Mark’s publishing company: www.fireflyinkworks.com Etsy store where you can buy Indigo’s Baptism: https://www.etsy.com/shop/FireflyInkworks?ref=shop-header-name&listing_id=4459276962&from_page=listing Instagram: fireflyinkworks Mark’s e-mail: fireflyinkworks@gmail.com Mark’s outline: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/awvy653dh8ubvi44uxcyb/LLL.Podcast-Outline.Indigo-s-Baptism.Feb-2026.pdf?rlkey=2b6fn8xxu4e37iiiqvexk6c20&dl=0

My friend Eliza Riggs (age 22, RM/Orem Utah, UVU Student) joins us to share her story including: Great Parents, Queer Friendly Home Came out first to her Heavenly Parents—positive experience Felt lots of pressure to fit in the Church as a Bishop’s daughter, wasn’t working, difficult chapter Joined girl’s high school wrestling team—“saved my life” Youth conference and surprising thought to serve a mission Mom buying her rainbow sheets before coming out to her Being called to Orem, Utah (initial disappointment—but then powerful revelation) Great experience coming out to her Mission President Coming out to her parents—super positive Her queer identity is celebrated in heaven Thank you, Eliza, for your courage to share your story which will help so many. You are awesome. Honored to have you on the podcast. Encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode. Links: Eliza’s Instagram: @elizariggs31

I was invited to be on my friend Tate Arnold’s show (Over___Soul) to share my story. I’ve posted that show as Episode 864 on our platform so you could listen here. Thank you, Tate, for letting me be on your show. You are a good man doing great work! Please check out and follow Tate on Instagram @Over___Soul

In one of our most important episodes, David joins us to talk about his new book “Devout—Losing My Faith to Find Myself”. In this episode, David talks about his journey with God to find his path forward as a queer Mormon considering suicide—a path that led David to separate himself from the Church—taking God with him—and live authentically. David gives excellent advice to younger queer people and parents to better support queer kids. I conclude with some of my thoughts on continuing to love and support those that leave our Church (not making them the hero on day for staying in the church and the villain the next day for leaving) and thanking David for his many years of service in the Church and the countless lives he has blessed. Thank you, David, for being on our podcast and your courage to continue to share your story. You are one of my heroes—you continue to help so many find hope in their lives. I encourage everyone to listen/share this episode and consider what we can do to better support our queer friends. Links: David’s New Book “Devout”: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FJJGJSB6 David’s Book Event in SLC on Feb 24th, 2026: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/david-archuleta-devout-tickets-1981202876135?aff=oddtdtcreator#location David’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/davidarchuleta/ David’s Instagram @davidarchie David’s TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@davidarchie David’s Twitter: x.com/DavidArchie David’s YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC75d1FNP1qR0lCY1usRKQEw

My friend Tate Arnold (married father of two, active LDS) joins us to share the following: * Difficult chapters including his father-in-law Paul dying by suicide * Needed a different path forward-choosing a "path of transformation" * Positive/life changing experience with psychedelics * Helped him "not pass down trauma to future generations" * Remade his career to be "aligned with eternal soul" * Life work around helping people be aligned with how they are * Love of and support for his transgender sister and the queer community including his former companion Matt Easton * Why he stated "Over____Soul" It is an honor to have Tate (who is a dear family friend and missionary companion to our son Matt in Sydney Australia) on the podcast. He is an "old soul" with incredible insights into how to love and support others. If you are looking to find more peace and hope in your life, please listen to Tate's podcast and connect with his work-work that is so needed in our community. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this podcast. Thank you, Tate, for being on the podcast. You are a good man and give me hope for the future! Links: Tate's Instagram Account: @Over____Soul Tate’s YouTube: https://youtube.com/@tateoversoul?si=9qq2CSPf81im35Nc Tate on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3nskaZAhU39wHS7MHCGhM0?si=hXFVo9UbQ4-dLRAaLTMSHw

Club Officers (Douglas Williams, Madi Davis, Bohin Tenney and Brandon Pattillo) from a club at BYU (called The Un-Alone Club) join us to talk about their club's efforts to help themselves and others have better tools and support to solve porn use. In the podcast, each club officer shares their own experience with pornography usage and what has helped them to better understand their porn use and better tools/support for recovery. If you are working to solve porn use in your own life or better tools to help others, please listen to and share this podcast. And if you are a BYU student looking for support, please check out/join their club (see show notes below). Thank you, Doug, Madi, Bohin, and Brandon—you are some of my new heroes. Your courage to share your story and create a safe place for others is making a difference for good in so many lives. Links: Instagram Account: @un.alone.byu E-mail: lovebetter@byu.edu Madi Davis earlier podcast: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-622-madi-davis-byu-student-bravely-shares-her-journey-to-solve-porn-use Madi Davis “Sisters on the Front Lines Podcast”: https://rss.com/podcasts/sistersonthefrontlines/ “7 Tips for Solving Pornography Use Liahona Article”: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/10/young-adults/7-tips-for-overcoming-pornography-use Chapter from Richard Ostler’s Book about Solving Porn Use: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nrfb3jzluzrj2sp8ihrfo/Chapter-4-Ending-Pornography-Use.-Listen-Learn-and-Love-Improving-Latter-day-Saint-Culture.pdf?rlkey=dqxcrtvxcmu6u3ppkig3kh82p&dl=0

My friend Rev. Jamie White (Pastor at First Presbyterian Church of Salt Lake City, theological/pastoral education from Vanguard University and Princeton Seminary, married mother of three) joins us to share her story including: * Being raped at age 18, becoming pregnant, keeping her child—now her eldest son/recently married * Feeling her life was ruined. No hope. Deep anger. Could have killed her abuser * Writing letters to her unborn son * The support that saved her; parents and faith community, and her mom's tough advice * Therapist jolting comment: “This tragedy must become your greatest treasure.” Initial anger at this comment—but became true. * Hard work to find peace and forgiveness—loving your enemies. * Finding her husband Dave—and building a life together. * Creating space in her congregation for diversity rather than uniformity, tough work but worth it * Acceptance and love of queer members of her congregation—including the story of a thriving transgender member. If you are looking for hope/healing from difficult experiences (or better tools to help others), please listen and share this episode. Jamie brings a rare combination from her academic background, profession experience, love of Jesus, and her personal story of being a rape survivor to authentically help each of us overcome difficult experiences and find more hope, peace, healing and forgiveness. This is a super powerful podcast. I encourage everyone to listen and share with others. Links: Paster Jamie White Bio: https://www.fpcslc.org/staff Faith Matters/One America Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yLO12ykbCU First Presbyterian Church Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@fpcslc

My friend Dr. Ben Bailey (PhD from BYU in Psychology currently working at UVU as a Mental Health Therapist) joins us to talk about things close to his heart and work as a therapist to bring more hope and understanding, reduce divisiveness, and bring us together as the same human family including: * Nonviolent Communication (NVC) as a framework to become a better peacemaker * Moving from judgmental thinking into a language of feelings and needs * Understanding differences in others by understanding their needs * How to talk across difference with people who have different opinions than us about the rights of LGBTQ individuals * Distinguishing empathy from agreement (understanding someone does not require endorsing their beliefs) * Prioritizing safety before connection * A more compassion focused approach to understanding pornography use * Normalizing and having a better approach to doubt Thank you, Ben, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you on how to feel better about ourselves and bring us together as the same human family. I also appreciate your work as a therapist and all you are doing to love, help, and give hope to others. Links: NVC Book: https://nonviolentcommunication.com/product/nvc/ Center For Nonviolent Communication: https://www.cnvc.org/ The Return of the Prodigal Son: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/122877/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-by-henri-jm-nouwen/ My Music Links: https://linktr.ee/benbaileymusic

My friends Rhonda Monson (married mother of three, recently returned senior missionary, LGBTQIA ally, therapist, life coach, and retreat facilitator) and Dakota Moses (gay, age 30, married to his husband Tyree for 8+ years, deeply spiritual) join us to share their story. Dakota starts and shares with us his journey being gay and LDS (and out before the age of 12) to his parents and his local leaders. Dakota talks about how he was not “permitted to be himself, or even be” and painful church experiences along the way. Dakota talks about doing everything he could to serve a mission but how that dream eventually shifted—and the deep spiritual impressions along the way. Rhonda (whose former husband is gay) talks about her love and support of Dakota and how she is both an active Latter-day Saint and loves the LGBTQIA people in her life. She talks about her wonderful son Dakota and his husband Tyree and her love of them, the good men they are, and keeping the family circle together. They talk about a new podcast they have started together called “I’ll Walk With You”. Please check out and share their podcast. Thank you, Rhonda and Dakota, for being on the podcast. You two inspire me. Thanks for making this world a better place. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: I’ll Walk With You Podcast: https://illwalkwithyou.buzzsprout.com/2572731 Rhonda’s Therapy Practice: https://yourjourneyservices.com/

** This podcast talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988 ** My friend Gordon Laws joins us to talk about supporting Dave and Kimi Martin when they lost their transgender son Levi to suicide in Dec 2022. Gordon talks about Levi—a bright, capable, curious young man—and the difficult journey he walked having Swyer Syndrome and being transgender. Gordon talks about the valiant efforts of Dave and Kimi to support their son. Gordon talks about the immediate days after Levi died and his role to minister to the Martin family—including writing his obituary and eulogy. Gordon talks about ministering principles to support others in their time of crisis/need—principles that help us all do better. Gordon talks about how the Savior ministers to those on the margins and invites us to better understand, love, and support transgender people. Thank you, Gordon for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode. Levi’s Eulogy: https://www.instagram.com/p/CqI2JAKpZWJ/ Sanctuary Documentary: https://sanctuarydoc.com/ Levi’s Obituary: https://www.d-mfh.com/obituary/Levi-Martin Episode 631 (David and Kimi Martin): https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-631-dave-and-kimi-martin-transgender-son Gordon's Irrentum Article (fictional story of Levi's premortal interview with God): https://irreantum.associationmormonletters.org/_20-1-i-can-take-or-leave-it/

My friend Stephanie Roach—who is married mother of two special needs children age 24 (daughter) and age 22 (son)—joins us to share how we can better support friends and family members with specific needs. In the episode, Stephanie talks about the following: 1. Historical treatment of individuals with special needs 2. Geraldo Rivera’s documentary 3. Improved laws and understanding—often led by special needs folks 4. Utah Parent Center—great resource 5. Insights and examples on how we can do better 6. Suggestions from her daughter I learned so much from Stephanie about how to better support the special needs people in my life—I wish I had listened to this episode decades ago. Stephanie is also the person who suggested the name of our podcast “Listen, Learn and Love” about 8 years ago. I will be forever grateful to Stephanie for her help. Thank you, Stephanie, for coming on the podcast. Your family is awesome. I encourage everyone to listen and share this episode. Links: Utah Parent Center: https://utahparentcenter.org/

My friend Alex Cutini joins us to share his story: Alex Cutini grew up Catholic in Brazil, sensing early on that he was different from the other boys. At 18, his search for meaning led him to join the LDS Church, serve a mission a year later in Porto Alegre, Brazil, and eventually move to the United States to graduate from BYU-Idaho. Beneath the surface, the strain of hiding who he was grew into profound depression and moments of suicidal ideation. Coming out meant stepping away from the church and facing the heartbreak of family members who struggled to accept him. Yet alongside that pain came grace: a deep, enduring love with his husband Matt, now married for ten years, and unexpected, unwavering support from his mission president and the missionary and family who baptized him. As both of their families slowly learned how to love more fully, Alex found his way forward—toward healing, purpose, and ultimately becoming the CEO of Encircle, where his story now helps save lives. Alex then shares the story of Encircle, now serving communities through five locations across Utah. He honors Stephenie Larsen’s original vision and courage in founding Encircle, and explains how that vision has grown into a lifeline for queer youth and their families. Encircle provides affirming clinical therapy, currently accepting new clients, alongside a wide range of free programs and services designed to create safety, connection, and hope. Together, these offerings reflect a simple but powerful mission: to ensure no young person or family has to navigate identity, mental health, or belonging alone. This is one of the most powerful podcasts we’ve ever done. Alex’s coming-out story is profoundly moving as he shares his journey from shame to self-love and acceptance—traveling from darkness, depression, and little hope to light, happiness, and a deeper capacity to help others. I wish everyone—straight or queer—could hear his story. The principles and insights he shares have the power to help us all. Thank you, Alex, for being on the podcast and for your extraordinary work at Encircle. You are making a tremendous difference for good in our community, and you are one of my heroes. And to everyone involved with Encircle—thank you. I am deeply supportive of your lifesaving work. Links: Alex’s Instagram: @alexcutini Alex's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexcutini/ Encircle's Instagram: @encircletogether Encircle: https://encircletogether.org/

My friend Amy Watkins Jensen (teacher, writer, active LDS, founder of “Women on the Stand”) join us to share her story including: * Growing up Mormon in Chicago * Mission to Argentina—first awareness of gendered imbalance * Brother coming out as gay * Carol Lynn Pearson’s living room * Y/W LGBTQ service project * Backstory starting “Women on the Stand” * Area Presidency ending practice, heartache, letter writing * President Oak’s recent invitation on the need to do better * Best practices Any shares powerful and important principles behind the movement (which isn’t asking for doctrinal changes) including: * Aligning of practices with our doctrine (which is divine equality) * Respectfully relentless If you are looking to better support Latter-day Saint women, please listen to this podcast and connect with Amy’s work. As Amy teaches “It will help us come closer to the divine equality that is our doctrine—and part of our beautiful theology—allowing us to thrive”. Thank you, Amy, for your great work. You are making a difference. I learned so much from you—you give me hope! Links: Best practices link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Xuxe0qF_naSVfF3FifQzvv9AAQeHdzD5LU-AaZ_mlws/edit?usp=drivesdk Hope for Future practices link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19RuApg_1a-GGZYERHhvVRjI23IKPI3ooAdjUHE-gZAs/edit?usp=sharing Instagram account: @womenonthestand Substack: https://womenonthestand.substack.com/

*Note: This episode is about my goal to reduce the tension between those who stay in the Church and those who leave** My friend Andy Newman (married father of three, Ex-Mormon, therapist, LGBTQ ally, bridge builder) join us to discuss: * Understanding/supporting your spouse that left the church * Understanding/supporting your spouse that stays in the church * What helps couple stay strong * Shares values over shared beliefs * The Gottman Method * A,C,T,S Andy’s work is more than theoretical—as he talks “in-real-life” about how this works in their marriage with examples of how he supports his wife and three daughters in their church attendance (including giving a talk at a daughter’s baptism) and the peace he has found with people he loves holding different beliefs. Andy mentions the work of Allan and Kattie Mount and their podcast “Marriage on a Tightrope”. Thank you, Andy, for bringing your clinical expertise and own personal journey to help those in a mixed-faith marriage. I learned so much from you and appreciate your voice and healing work in our community. You are a good man—glad to have you on the podcast! Links: Psychology today: www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/andy-newman-gilbert-az/974441 IG: www.instagram.com/andynewmanlpc/ TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@deconstruction_therapy Twitter: @andynewmanlpc Epsiode One: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-846-andy-newman-episode-one/id1347971725?i=1000734877746

My friend Rebecca Mullen (lives in Colorado, master certified life coach) joins us to talk about her work of healing including: * Becoming an LGBTQ ally in her younger years * Removing shame and providing healing * Helping everyone to be their authentic selves * Loving people that Churches don’t always love/accept * Principles for managing marriage conflict * Importance and application of love If you are looking for insights/perspectives to heal and bring people closer together, Rebecca’s work will help you. Thank you, my friend Rebecca, for being on the podcast—your great heart—and all you are doing to bring us together as the same human family. Links: Rebecca’s web site (you can find her contact info, life coach work, podcast and book here): https://RebeccaMullenCoaching.com/ Outdoor Therapist episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/dk/podcast/episode-736-zak-hazlett-the-outdoor-therapist/id1347971725?i=1000645256176

My friend Katie Searle (certified mediator, philanthropic consultant, grant writer, and mother) joins us to share her story, including: * Being raised in two homes after parents divorced (mother and her wife; father and his wife) * Going to BYU-Hawaii, part of Dr Chad Ford’s Peacebuilding Program and working at the McKay Center for Intercultural Understanding, temple marriage * Co-founding Kinfolk Magazine, adapting to the pace of a fast growing start-up Leaving the Church (LGBTQIA+ issues/feeling uneasy with messages that harmed people she loves, valuing authenticity over obedience, developing own moral compass) * Moving to Copenhagen and heartbreaking loss of a baby son Leo, at 5 months pregnant; the isolation of grieving abroad without community * Becoming pregnant again, husband coming out as gay, marriage ending Moving back to Oregon, managing heartbreak, daughter born, support from mother and her wife * Falling in love with Joe, his death on the day he was to move in, profound grief Opening heart to a new love with Matt and their committed partnership, shared life, and blended family Katie writes about grief with these powerful words: “I never sought to be an expert in grief and loss, but that is where my life journey has taken me. In navigating two separate households as a child, a transition of faith, the losses of a child, a marriage, a career, and the sudden death of my ‘chapter two’—my soul love—I’ve become well-acquainted with the darkness of deep loss, grief, and the grit of burning resilience. I care deeply about equipping others with the ability to adapt to life’s unavoidable conflicts, trauma, tragedies and stressors. Learning to live with adversity and grief in a culture that is pain-adverse can feel impossible and incredibly lonely, but there are ways to move forward (rather than moving on), rebuild and reclaim joy. I know this, because I’ve lived it time and time again—and so can you.” Katie is also the Assistant Director of the Waymakers initiative (with Chad Ford & Patrick Mason), and planner of their conflict resolution workshop series, REPAIR. Dr. Chad Ford writes about Katie’s roll in their recent workshop to "Maintaining Love during Faith Transitions" with these words: “Katie came up next. She spoke about her own faith transition in the most vulnerable way possible. She reminded us of both the fragility of change and the bravery it takes to find truth and belonging, especially when that means making choices that ask ourselves and others to leave behind old versions of ourselves. There were tears flowing as Katie, in her own graceful way, reminded us what it means to be human.” Thank you, Katie, for your courage to share your story—which helps all of us better understand grief and more tools to help others walking this road. Thank you for your bridge building work in our community. Thanks for all you are doing to bring us together as the same human family. Links: Waymakers' next REPAIR event: Interfaith REPAIR: A multi-faith workshop on healing divides and building communities of peace, March 6th, 2026, Salt Lake City (Tickets on sale early 2026) Waymakers: https://www.waymakers.us Support Waymakers: https://donorbox.org/waymakersproject Katie Searle's website & contact info: https://katiesearle.com/ Chad Ford's Earlier Episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-847-dr-chad-ford-new-book-seventy-times-seven/id1347971725?i=1000735977230

My friend Isaac Durfey (who was on episode 833) joins us to update listeners on his journey including: * Parent leaving on a mission * What happened to help him stopping “hating himself for being gay” * Importance of new beginnings * Friends like Jake and Joe Sharp (who were on episode 811) * Feeling about the Family Proclamation * Hope for the future * Love of the LDS Church and the support/love he receives Thank you, my friend Isaac, for being on the podcast—you are a good man. Links: Episode 833: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/episode-833-isaac-durfey-black-gay-latter-day-saint/id1347971725?i=1000710494050 Episode 811: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/episode-811-jake-and-joe-sharp-lost-brother-sam-to/id1347971725?i=1000691741343