Talking Animal Law

In this episode of Talking Animal Law, we're joined by Dr. Angus Nurse, Professor of Law and Environmental Justice at Anglia Ruskin University and a core member of A-Law's Wildlife Law Working Group. Dr. Nurse takes us on a journey through his career, from his early days as an investigator to becoming a leading voice in green criminology. We dive into his groundbreaking research, including the "System Set to Fail" report and his book, Cleaning Up Greenwash, to uncover why our current legal systems often fall short in protecting animals and the environment. This episode explores the crucial links between animal welfare and the criminal justice system, offering a new perspective on how we can create a more just world for animals. Timestamps & Topics 0:08 - 1:19 — Introduction: Introducing Dr. Angus Nurse, his work at Anglia Ruskin University, and his role with the UK Centre for Animal Law (A-Law). 1:20 - 4:24 — Investigative Roots: Dr. Nurse reflects on his career as an investigator for the Local Government Ombudsman and how it shaped his interest in law and justice. He discusses the recurring nature of problems and the disconnect between what the law says and how it is applied. 4:25 - 6:02 — Policy and Animals: The conversation touches on how new legislation, such as the planning and infrastructure bill, can have negative consequences for wildlife and that human benefit often takes priority over animal welfare. 6:03 - 7:27 — Dogs and Human Responsibility: Dr. Nurse addresses the complexities of responsible dog ownership and dangerous dogs, arguing that many dog attacks are preventable and are rooted in human-centered issues. 7:28 - 10:50 — Beyond Punishment: Dr. Nurse delves into the "investigative mind" and the limitations of a justice system focused solely on punishment, arguing that a retributive approach fails to achieve justice for animal victims. 10:51 - 12:46 — Corporate Crime: Discussion of corporate environmental crime and why traditional penalties like fines are often ineffective against major corporations. 12:47 - 18:37 — The "System Set to Fail" Report: Dr. Nurse explains why animal victims don't receive the same resources as human victims, highlighting systemic issues like resource allocation, rural policing, and lack of training for courts and lawyers. 18:38 - 22:34 — Transforming Justice for Animals: Dr. Nurse reflects on his changing perspective, from believing the system "broadly works" to becoming less confident in its effectiveness and the need for radical rethinking. He discusses how the law can be better constructed to consider the "victimization of the animal". 22:35 - 26:27 — Unpacking "Greenwash": An explanation of why corporate environmental crime is an "inevitable consequence of capitalism" and how companies use greenwashing to hide harmful practices. 26:28 - 30:22 — Public Awareness and Newsworthiness: The conversation explores why some animal and environmental issues, such as cat torture or elephant ivory, receive media attention, while others, like low-level habitat destruction, go unnoticed. 30:23 - 37:44 — Research Methods & Obstacles: Dr. Nurse details the empirical methods used in his research, including questionnaires and interviews, to understand the barriers to effective wildlife crime prosecution. 37:45 - 42:20 — Notifiable Offenses: He explains the crucial need to make wildlife crimes "notifiable offenses," which would require police to record them and help address the problem of patchy data collection. 42:21 - 45:39 — Elevating Animal Crimes: Dr. Nurse shares his belief that making crimes notifiable elevates their status and signals that they are a policing priority. He gives an example of the challenge of obtaining data on dog attacks due to inconsistent recording. 45:40 - 48:45 — Recommended Resources & Actionable Advice: Dr. Nurse recommends books like Stephen Wise’s Rattling the Cage and Joan Schaffner’s Introduction to Animals and the Law. His advice to listeners: "Don't give up," as incremental change takes time. 48:46 - 49:22 — Outro & Contact Information: Dr. Nurse shares where listeners can find his work and connect with him online. Learn more about the UK Centre for Animal Law at https://www.alaw.org.uk/   #TalkingAnimalLaw #DrAngusNurse #AnimalLaw #GreenCriminology #WildlifeCrime #EnvironmentalJustice #AnimalWelfare #LegalReform #Podcast #LawAndJustice #AnimalRights #IFAW #ALaw #JusticeForAnimals

Ankita Shanker, founder of WMILAR kindly talks to us about her vision for the World's 1st Global Moot Competition & Moot Training Courses on Animal Rights Law. As the website explains, 'The WMILAR combines traditional aspects of International Law (including but not limited to International Human Rights Law and International Environmental Law) with contemporary issues of animal rights. It does so through a mooting competition aimed at law students, and a 2-pronged training course aimed at law students and law teachers.'  

What is on the agenda for animal law and policy in Scotland? Guest host, Alison Burns talks to Kirsty Jenkins, Policy Officer at OneKind about their campaign to 'Stand up for pigs' centred around the use of farrowing crates, the National Good Food Nation Plan for Scotland and it's potential to drive up animal welfare standards and much more. 

In this episode, we speak to Stefan Blakiston Moore and Madison Rogers from the national charity, Cats Protection about their work advocating for cats in law and policy, alongside their education and welfare programmes. Drawing upon the 'Cats and Their Stats 2023' report, published by the charity, we learn about the current welfare landscape for cats and the needs and challenges faced by their keepers. We cover the rise of selective breeding and unethical importation of cats into the UK, the trend in pedigree cat ownership, new mandatory microchipping of cats, coming into force in June 2024, the renters market and much more.

In this episode we speak to Claire Bass, Senior Director of Campaigns and Public Affairs at Humane Society International-UK, who has been working in the animal protection movement for two decades, with recent significant involvement in the successful passage of the Animal Welfare (Sentience) Act. Claire outlines her New Year's wishlist for animals in 2024, from ending the cage age for farmed animals to wildlife crime and more. 

In this episode we welcome guests, Dr Roshni Ladny and Erin Leach to explore research about the potential impact upon children of witnessing violence towards animals. We discuss this research with our guests in the context of General Comment 26 published by the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child's (CRC), which implicitly recognises (as part of a broader statement about the impact upon children of the climate crisis, loss of biodiversity and exposure to pollution) the negative impact that witnessing violence inflicted on animals can have on children and conversely the positive benefits for children of interacting with animals as part of the natural world. 

This extended episode is co-hosted with Tamara Bedic, President of the National Lawyers Guild NYC (2022) and Chair of the NLGNYC Animal Rights Committee, and features three prominent guests talking about veganism and how it engages fundamental human rights across the UK, Germany and Italy. We hear from Dr. Jeanette Rowley and Dr. Carlo Prisco, co-editors of Law and Vegansism: International Perspectives on the Human Right to Freedom of Conscience (2022) and Ralf Muller-Amenitsch.  Dr. Jeanette Rowley holds a PhD in veganism and human rights and has published widely and presenting globally on the subject of legal protection for vegans. Dr. Carlo Prisco is a lawyer and PhD in Philosophy of Law and Ralf Müller-Amenitsch is a German lawyer specialising in labour, social and family law. 

In this episode we discuss the capture and slaughter of fish in commercial fisheries with John Garratt,  co-author of a paper with Dr Steven McCulloch 'Wild Fish Welfare in UK Commercial Sea Fisheries: Qualitative Analysis of Stakeholder Views'. This is a deep dive into fish welfare during the capture and killing processes, exploring opportunities for law reform and how measures to protect fish welfare can support other objectives. 

In this episode, we discuss the legal protection of farmed fish with Amro Hussain, Senior Public Affairs Lead at The Humane League. In particular, we focus on the protection of welfare at the time of killing and ask why current legal protections are not sufficient.  

Dr Christina Nellist, B.Ed; Ph.D; FOCAE. Eastern Orthodox Theologian, Fellow of the Oxford Centre for Animal Ethics and Editor of Pan Orthodox Concern for Animals, talks about animals and theology. This episode explores how Christian theology has influenced the development of law in the Western hemisphere and how it can help us navigate some of the current dilemas about society's treatment of animals.   

This episode is co-hosted with Tamara Bedic, Chair of the Animal Rights Committee of the New York Guild of Lawyers (New York City division). We are talking about trophy hunting with our guests, Eduardo Goncalves, founder of the Campaign to Ban Trophy Hunting in the UK and Professor David Bilchitz,  Professor of Fundamental Rights and Constitutional Law at the University of Johannesburg and Professor of Law at the University of Reading. 

In this episode, we talk to Dr Steven McCulloch, veterinary surgeon and expert in animal welfare about the use of farrowing crates. Dr McCulloch is the author of a recent report called Banning Farrowing Crates in the UK: Transitioning to Free Farrowing to Meet the Welfare Needs of Pigs. We discuss the use of farrowing crates and the call for a ban on animal welfare grounds.       

Historian Dr Hilda Kean, former Dean of Ruskin College, Oxford, takes us back to nineteenth century Britain, as she discusses the landscape for animals around the enactment of Martin's Act 1822 (named after its sponsor, Richard Martin MP), the first national legislation intended specifically to make animal cruelty an offence. This episode contains references to animal cruelty, including cat skinning, that some people may find distressing. 

In this week’s episode we talk to Duncan McNair, CEO of Save the Asian Elephants (‘STAE’) about elephants, and the impact that unethical elephant tourist attractions have on the welfare of the individual elephant and on the elephant population. Duncan discusses proposals for law reform that would see a ban on the marketing of certain tourist attractions in Asia involving elephants. 

Dr Joe Wills talks about a case brought by the Nonhuman Rights Project (NhRP) on behalf of an elephant named Happy. The NhRP is seeking a writ of habeas corpus to secure Happy's freedom, so that she can be transferred to an elephant sanctuary.  The case has recently been heard by New York's highest court and raises fundamental issues about legal personhood.

Dr Angus Nurse is the author of a Government commissioned report: 'Investigation of measures to reduce dog attacks and promote responsible ownership amongst dog owners with dog control issues in the UK.' 2021. Dr Nurse discusses the report and its implications for dog control policy, law and enforcement. 

David Thomas, lawyer at Advocates for Animals and Kerry Postlewhite of Cruelty Free International, discuss the use of animals for cosmetics testing. We learn about the legal landscape and current challenges.

David Blatte, author of 'The Vegan Imperative, Why We Must Give Up Meat and Why We Don't' talks about the book, compassion and his career as an animal law attorney.  

We hear from lawyers and the petitioner involved in a public law challenge in 2021 against the Scottish Government's beaver killing policy. Learn about the legal issues involved and the implications of the decision for Scotland's beaver population and beyond. 

We speak to David Bowles, RSPCA Head of Public Affairs, about some of the causes supported by the late Sir David Amess who was MP for Southend West and a consistent champion of animal welfare throughout his long career. Sir David Amess MP was tragically killed earlier this year, although his legacy lives on.   Join us in remembering a great advocate in Parliament against animal suffering who worked for decades alongside the RSPCA and other animal advocacy groups to enshrine animal welfare standards in law.