Mik + One: The Official Project to Product Podcast by Dr. Mik Kersten

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One are industry luminaries Dr. Suzette Johnson and Robin Yeman. Suzette and Robin explore the integration of lean, agile, and digital methodologies into the increasingly complex realm of cyber-physical systems. They share compelling insights from their recently published book, "Industrial DevOps: Build Better Systems Faster." Suzette and Robin also stress the importance of integrating agile practices beyond software into hardware and the broader cyber-physical ecosystem, highlighting real-world examples and debunking common misconceptions.    Listen as Mik, Suzette, and Robin reflect on the evolution from small team agility to expansive, multifunctional team cohesion.     Key discussions include: Agile Beyond Software: Agile isn't limited to software; it can and should extend into hardware and cyber-physical systems for holistic efficiency. Importance of a Multi-Horizon Planning: Implementing multiple horizons of planning bridges the gap between short-term agility and long-term strategy. Role of Leadership: Leadership at all levels—especially in setting objectives and prioritizing work—plays a crucial role in the successful adoption of agile and DevOps practices. Data-Driven Decisions: Emphasizing the importance of using empirical data to constantly refine plans and reduce uncertainties. Continuous Learning and Growth Mindset: A perpetual state of learning and adaptation is necessary to keep pace with technological advancement and project complexities.   Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne Additional Resources: Portfolio SAFe MarTech Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts Join the Flow Framework Community

Martin Harryson & Megha Sinha  Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One are Martin Harryson & Megha Sinha from McKinsey & Company. With a focus on their research which quantified the benefits of shifting from project to product models, Martin and Megha share insights on how these transformations can significantly enhance profitability and efficiency. As technology advances, the integration and upskilling necessary for these models are more critical than ever.   Listen as Mik, Martin, and Megha explore the importance of cross-functional collaboration, the challenges in aligning incentives, and the necessity of robust organizational design.      Key discussions include: The product operating model can significantly enhance return to shareholders and operating margins, with the top quartile companies outperforming others by substantial margins. Crucial elements like psychological safety and cross-functional collaboration are essential for the success of product operating models. Upskilling and capability building are vital, particularly in roles like product management, to ensure the effectiveness of these models. Generative AI can accelerate product development and streamline processes, but its success depends on addressing foundational constraints in the product operating model. Implementing these models requires a combination of high-level vision and detailed, specific actions demonstrated through smaller, focused initiatives.   Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne Additional Resources: Portfolio SAFe MarTech Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts Join the Flow Framework Community https://flowframework.org/ffc-podcast/martin-harrysson-and-megha-sinha/

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Sejal Amin, current Chief Product and Technology Officer for Khoros, where she leads global product development teams to build great experiences for customers. In this episode, Mik and Sejal discuss a wide range of topics around continuous improvement, team health, organizational design, and flow. Key discussions include: Lessons Sejal learned from making the shift from project to product and barriers to overcome when making that shift The importance of team culture and emphasizing the health of the team Strategies to accelerate and make lasting organizational changes that focus on outcomes; including an example of a structure and data-driven environment in which teams can thrive Proven tools that increase team performance to effectively work around data and flow Structuring a product and team hierarchy that is conducive to a successful project to product transformation that enables continuous learning, improvement and innovation Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com  

In this episode, Mik Kersten is joined by Gene Kim—author of The Phoenix Project and The Unicorn Project—for a deep dive into Vibe Coding, his upcoming book co-authored with Steve Yegge. Gene shares how learning to “vibe code”—where the developer supervises AI-generated code instead of writing it line by line—transformed his own productivity and reignited his passion for coding. The conversation unpacks how AI-assisted development drives an unprecedented 10x increase in productivity—and why most organizations are structurally unprepared to take advantage of it. Mik and Gene explore the architectural shifts, leadership models, and organizational rewiring needed to thrive in this new era. From FAFO (Faster, Ambitious, Fun, Optionality) to the fall of monolithic systems, they cover it all. Plus, they draw parallels between AI and past industrial revolutions, touch on real-world stories from Booking.com, Adidas, and the UK government, and preview Mik’s forthcoming book, Output to Outcomes, a playbook for organizations navigating the shift from outputs to measurable, scalable results in the age of AI. Key discussions include: How Mik’s upcoming book Output to Outcomes builds on Project to Product to guide organizations through this next transformation Why traditional team structures and monolithic architectures are holding back the potential of AI The FAFO model (Faster, Ambitious, Fun, Optionality) and what it means for developer experience Lessons from Amazon, Booking.com, and the UK government on adopting GenAI at scale Why modularity and outcome-based teams are essential for thriving in the age of AI Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne For more information about Gene Kim and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: Show Notes and Transcript.pdf  

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is technology luminary Gene Kim. Gene Kim is an esteemed author and technology thought leader with over two decades of experience studying high-performing technology organizations. Mik and Gene look into the groundbreaking insights from Gene's latest book, "Wiring the Winning Organization," co-authored with Dr. Steven Spear. They navigate the pressing need for new organizational frameworks that bridge the gaps left by traditional models like Lean, Agile, and DevOps. They also analyze the core mechanisms vital to achieving optimal organizational performance, such as simplification and amplification.   Listen as Mik and Gene explore the concept of ‘slowification’—the strategic slowdown for long-term gains—and provide practical advice on how technology leaders can implement these changes.  Key discussions include: Understanding the critical layers involved in organizational performance: objects (code, patients), tools (IDEs, MRI machines), and social circuitry (team communication). Learn about the essential mechanisms—slowification, simplification, and amplification—that form the backbone of successful organizational design. Explore the impact of strong, clear feedback loops in optimizing organizational efficiency and uncovering hidden inefficiencies. Discover how partitioning complex systems into modular components can facilitate faster development and deployment cycles. Learn how Gene's book provides a framework that is understandable and actionable at all organizational levels, focusing on practical implementation.   Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne Additional Resources: Portfolio SAFe The Unicorn Project by Gene Kim Wiring the Winning Organization by Gene Kim and Steven J. Spear MarTech Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts Join the Flow Framework Community For more information about Gene Kim and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://flowframework.org/ffc-podcast/gene-kim-ep-57/  

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Brendan Hopper, is the CIO for technology at Commonwealth Bank Group. He is responsible for ensuring the bank has a world leading IT engineering capability and is making the right technology investments and decisions. Brendan shares what drives his passion for driving innovation and flow at organizations and why technology should become an accelerator, not a disruptor for organizations and their customers.  In this episode, Mik and Brendan also discuss org structure and the core principle that to be evolutionary means focusing on small increments and not just major redesigns. Key discussions include:  Brendan’s professional journey in strategy and engineering How velocity can drive safety Building technology that real people delight in Creating a transformation network that is course correcting Lessons Brendan has learned in shifting from project to product  The need for feedback cycles in transformation Understanding data that bottlenecks at the value stream level and the organization level. Restoring and repairing organizational design Why org structure has to continually change Moving teams between value streams when roadmapping what is next What Brendan is focused on today Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com Additional Resources: Connect with Brendan Portfolio SAFe Dean Leffingwell on the Mik + One Podcast: Part 1, Part 2 MarTech Dave West - podcast episode Scrum Studio Greenfield project Skunkworks Bimodal IT Agile Release Train Mik + One Podcast Episode 20: Justin Watts For more information about Brendan Hopper and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/brendan-hopper/

Joining Mik on this episode of Mik + One is Steve Berez, advisory partner at Bain & Company and co-author of Doing Agile Right, Transformation Without Chaos. In this episode, Mik and Steve discuss: Insights into Steve’s 30+ year journey developing Bain’s technology practice Real examples of implementing agile practices and how to do it right How to get buy-in from Finance teams and demonstrate the value of a capacity-based mindset Strategies organizations can take to realize Agile benefits more quickly How Doing Agile Right can improve the business technology dialogue Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com   Additional Resources: Connect with Steve Doing Agile Right Dean Leffingwell on the Mik + One Podcast: Part 1, Part 2   For more information about Steve Berez and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/steve-berez/

In this episode of Mik + One, Mik is joined by Razat Gaurav, Chief Executive Officer at Planview.  In this episode, Mik and Razat discuss the trillion-dollar opportunity ahead to rebuild the future of how the enterprise works. Topics include: How new market realities will impact the way we think about transformations Designing foundational capabilities with resiliency in mind to maximize flow and unlock value Deep dive into the three “waves” that optimize software value streams The fundamental nature of operationalizing with learning cycles and feedback loops How Tasktop joining Planview will dramatically accelerate the ability to help the world's organizations survive and thrive in the age of software Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Razat Gaurav and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/razat-gaurav/  

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Geordie Henderson, General Manager of AWS Messaging and Streaming at Amazon Web Services, and previously the VP of Engineering at Hootsuite. In this episode, Mik and Geordie share insights into organizational design and innovation to build, integrate and lead successful software organizations, as well as other key topics including: An overview of Geordie’s experience in scaling high-performing teams at Amazon Web Services and Hootsuite, and advice to leaders on the missteps to avoid Implementing the correct team structures and dynamics when optimizing flow for business outcomes How to successfully approach creating microservices teams and managing product needs The concept of Single Threader Owners (STOs) and the role of product and engineering leadership when organizing around products vs. technology Input versus output metrics and the importance of having set goals when evolving team structure Advice to leaders on creating the dynamic and structure required for driving innovation within the organization Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Geordie Henderson and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/geordie-henderson/

In this episode of Mik + One, Mik is joined by Darrell Fernandes, Head of Product Technology at TIAA, a Fortune 100 financial services organization that is the leading provider of financial services in the academic, research, medical, cultural and governmental fields. In this episode, Mik and Darrell discuss themes around driving organizational improvement and customer value, as well as other topics including: The five key accountabilities that all IT product managers should consider when thinking about how an IT product fits within the market Insights into successfully building out Objectives and Key Results (OKRs) that align with the business outcomes and deliver customer value Organizing cross-functional Agile Release Trains (ARTs) as capabilities and guidance for building them into the business and technology roadmap Operationalizing at a business level and advice on educating leadership and business counterparts when getting buy-in Recognizing success and building incentives that strengthen how the teams operate to become more innovative, efficient and value-focused Advice on how to approach and introduce Flow within the organization to deliver greater business value   Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Darrell Fernandes and to view the full list of resources mentioned in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/darrell-fernandes/

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Manuel Pais, co-author of Team Topologies: Organizing Business and Technology Teams for Fast Flow. In this episode, Mik and Manuel discuss some of the key themes in Team Topologies, as well as other topics including: Manuel's learnings and key tips on how to effectively manage team collaboration in the shift to remote-first and hybrid working The relationship between the ideas behind the Flow Framework and Team Topologies Advice on how to set up value streams to enable and improve team flow and capacity when delivering digital experiences Implementing a reorganization and advice to leaders on how to approach this, and why it’s important to understand, implement and evolve the team topology Treating platforms as products and the importance of investing in platform teams to manage cognitive load and provide greater value to customers Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Manuel Pais and to view the full list of resources featured in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/manuel-pais/

To kick off the first episode of 2022, Mik is joined by two guests from Bank of New Zealand: Paul Littlefair, Chief Technology Officer, and BMK Lakshminarayanan, Value Stream Architect. In this episode, Mik, Paul and BMK delve into how Bank of New Zealand has been applying the shift from Project to Product and Flow Metrics, and other key topics including: Insight into how Bank of New Zealand’s transformation journey started, and the goals they first set out to achieve The importance of investing in continuous improvement, and rewarding for improvement and not just output Getting leadership buy-in, and why reporting the developer experience at the board level is crucial to enabling flow and visibility Introducing education around flow at all levels to create continuous learning across the organization, and insight into how Bank of New Zealand has executed this How tenacity, pivoting and starting today has brought a large enterprise organization like Bank of New Zealand on a great trajectory to getting things deployed, and how they’ve adapted their learnings at scale Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Paul Littlefair and BMK Lakshminarayanan and to view the full list of resources featured in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/bank-of-new-zealand/

We’re delighted to welcome back Leffingwell, Co-founder and Chief Methodologist at Scaled Agile. Dean is an entrepreneur and software development methodologist best known for creating SAFe®, the most widely used framework for business Agility. In this episode, Mik and Dean focus on practices and behaviors of high-performing teams, digging into their own experiences on what makes teams thrive. Additional topics include: Dean’s learnings on what he has seen with large transformations using SAFe Insight into how and why the Flow Metrics were incorporated into SAFe 5.1 The importance of predictability in the enterprise The evolution of the Scrum Master role Measuring the system and outcomes, the different levels of team metrics, and who owns the Flow competency, outcomes and improvements of those metrics What makes a high performing team in 2021 and what Dean’s predictions on how this may look in 2025  Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Dean Leffingwell and to view the full list of resources featured in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/dean-leffingwell-2/

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Sally Elatta, CEO and Founder of AgilityHealth and Agile Videos. In this episode, Mik and Sally discuss the importance of using business agility and measurement as critical ways in driving innovation, as well as other key topics such as: Sally’s business agility journey and her learnings from over the years Insight into some of the biggest surprises from AgilityHealth’s study on metrics and measurements The success patterns of creating a roadmap for improvement of change, and the importance of continuous improvement, removing obstacles and developing talent Defining growth items and some examples of them that help teams become high-performing The difference between business outcomes and transformation outcomes and why they are crucial at different levels of the organization Advice and guidance to leaders on how to get started or scale these initiatives Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Sally Elatta and to view the full list of resources featured in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/sally-elatta/

In this episode, Mik is joined by Dave Snowden, CSO & Founder of Cognitive Edge and Director of the Cynefin Center. In this episode, Mik and Dave talk about the development of Cynefin, a framework for decision making, and other key topics including: The Cynefin framework and some of the existing methodologies and techniques that have been developed Examples of things that have gone in the wrong direction as a result of not understanding some of the first principles The best practices for technology leaders to identify and thrive through chaotic events or chaotic environments Guidance on how to take aspects of each framework and put them together in different combinations Advice on how to approach the Cynefin framework at various levels of leadership Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Dave Snowden and to view the full list of resources featured in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/dave-snowden/

We're back! And what an episode we have to kick things off. Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Felipe Castro, renowned author, speaker and trainer on objectives and key results (OKRs). In this episode, Mik and Felipe talk about how Felipe helps organizations transform how they use goals by adopting OKRs, and other key topics such as: How Felipe became an early adopter of OKRs Common mistakes organizations use when leveraging OKRs Why unlearning is the solution to change the ways of working The importance of shortening Feedback loops to manage risks and connect people to outcomes Characteristics of successful modern product teams Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Felipe Castro and to view the full list of resources featured in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/felipe-castro/

In this special episode of Mik + One, Mik summarizes some of his favorite episodes from the last 18 months and provides insight into some of his key takeaways including: Interesting insights on scaling Agile and helping digital transformation succeed The importance of equity, diversity and inclusion on value streams The pivotal role of leadership’s responsibility on improving daily work Flow Metrics and OKRs as a match made in heaven How balancing portfolios to managing risk and debt can be a key enabler of innovation Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Dr. Mik Kersten and to view the full list of episodes featured in this episode, as well as download the transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/summer-special/

In this episode, Mik is joined by Christian Idiodi, Partner at Silicon Valley Product Group. Mik and Christian talk about how to establish product management disciplines and other key topics including: Fascinating insights into how Christian got into product management, how he landed within Silicon Valley Product Group and insights about his own career Establishing product management disciplines at multiple levels of the organization and why it is an important catalyst to successful transformations The importance of good leadership and management, and why it’s crucial to establish stable teams that can learn, solve problems and deliver value to the customer Aligning OKR’s with culture and empowering teams to deliver greater value to customers Advice to this generation of leaders on coaching and key cultural initiatives that Christian has seen resonate at large enterprises Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Christian Idiodi, to view the full list of resources featured in this episode, and to download the episode transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/christian-idiodi/

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Courtney Kissler, Chief Technology Officer at online retailer, Zulily. In this episode, Mik and Courtney talk about Courtney's experience in driving technological transformations and cover many key topics such as: Courtney’s journey within DevOps and how her experience leading transformations at large enterprises including Nordstrom, Starbucks and Nike led her to Zulily The importance of fixed capacity and creating a generative culture where team members feel they can be honest and supported Value stream mapping and how this can help teams and organizations understand the dynamics of flow to increase the flow of value to customers Helping technology and business leaders understand what the leading indicators of success are and how to track them Tips to practise and adopt OKRs in order to promote learning and improvement Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Courtney Kissler, to view the full list of resources featured in this episode, and to download the episode transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/courtney-kissler/

Joining Mik in this episode of Mik + One is Scott Prugh, Chief Technology Officer at CSG. In this episode, Mik and Scott talk about Scott’s experience and learnings from within the DevOps community, as well as many other key topics including: The three domains in DevOps portfolio management and how to think about them independently, as well as how they reinforce each other Flow Load and Work in Progress (WIP) and how organizations end up with a mismatch between capacity and the work that’s booked and committed Combining service ownership with produce value streams How to play the longer game by changing team structures and looking at managing services The concept of an impact minute and how to calculate it Successfully communicating technical language and processes to the wider team of stakeholders Subscribe to the Mik + One podcast today so you never miss an episode and don’t forget to leave your review. Follow Mik on Twitter: @mik_kersten #MikPlusOne www.tasktop.com For more information about Scott Prugh, to view the full list of resources featured in this episode, and to download the episode transcript, visit: https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/scott-prugh/