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Humans of Tango

27 Episodes
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Almost 4 years after making the case for why we should all be dancing tango, Simona Ciampi is back to share her experiences with healing through art and how she's using skills learned through tango to improve her daily life.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: "El Carillon de la Merced" by Enrique S. Discepolo, performed by Carlos Molina y Su Orquesta | Image Credit: Alejandra Rúa Álvarez
Show Notes
Listen to the original episode, "Why we should all be dancing tango, with Simona Ciampi," and follow Simona on Instagram.
Learn more about Simona’s somatic coach, Chen Lizra.
View the painting Simona created inspired by her family history.
Watch examples of the Italian folk dances Simona mentions: Tarantella, Tammurriata, and Pizzica.
Read a transcript of Simona's episode here.
"...through, just, love and committing to your own journey within a culture and within a craft and within a practice, you can embody whatever you want to. And there's nobody to tell you that it's not authentic or real or enough."
Co-founder of Oxygen Tango School and Awaken Tango Mitra Martin talks about her Persian heritage and the value of research, innovation, acceptance, and attention in tango.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Zorzal”, arranged and recorded by Orquesta Típica Misteriosa Buenos Aires with music and lyrics by Dorita Zárate | Image Credit: Glenn Campbell
Show Notes
Learn more about Mitra's perspectives and work on her website. (Bonus points if you learn more about “The Romance of the Rose” and gardens in Persian poetry or even read Mitra's thesis!)
Read some background about Iran’s history and government, then read Mitra’s reflections on Iran's 2022 protests.
TriANGulO changed locations but is still going strong as a studio and community under the leadership of its founder, Carina Moeller.
Listen to “Instinct Tango, with Aníbal Dominguez” for another perspective on how contact improv relates to tango.
Read why Mitra recommends learning tango one-on-one rather than in conventional group classes.
Listen to different versions of the same song, “El Choclo,” to get a sense of the different styles of Carlos Di Sarli and Juan D’Arienzo.
Learn more about Marshall Rosenberg’s framework of nonviolent communication and read a post by the student Mitra mentioned, Andrei Andreev, applying Rosenberg's framework to tango.
Listen to “Flowing together, with Avik Basu” and visit Awaken Tango to read the Inner Experience of Tango report.
Mitra shouted out the following folks as key sources of inspiration and support in her tango journey: Avik Basu, Stefan Fabry, Jaimes Friedgen, Korey Ireland, Dave Lampson, Carina Moeller, Rebecca Shulman, Daniel Trenner, and Brigitta Winkler.
Read a transcript of Mitra's episode here.
In summer of 2021, Scott Boddye said goodbye to all but two-suitcases worth of worldly possessions and became a digital nomad. Since then, he's traveled on 4 continents and counting, learned to dance in heels, and created a social media platform for tango dancers that he hopes to launch any day now.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: "Loca" composed by Manuel Jovés, arranged and recorded by Tango Bardo | Image Credit: Kappu Chino
Show Notes
Check out Scott's website to learn more about him, then visit the website for Mundo Tango.
Learn more about Daniela Borgialli, Scott's first tango teacher, then read an article about the Tango Club at Arizona State University - which is still going strong almost 20 years after Scott studied there!
For a deeper dive on gender norms and tango, check out any or all of the following HoT episodes: Small movements toward tango for all, with Arno Plass; Embracing to change the world, with Alex Pacheco Castillo; Image, authenticity, and building bridges, with Phi Lee Lam; Reflections of a queer tango trailblazer, with Augusto LaMarshall.
Read a transcript of Scott's episode here.
FIRST BILINGUAL EPISODE! / ¡PRIMER EPISODIO BILINGÜE!
After a youthful stint in a rock band, Matías Mauricio turned his artistic inclinations to tango. Today he teaches and writes essays, books, and lyrics, and generally lives and breathes tango in his hometown of Buenos Aires. / Luego de un paso juvenil por una banda de rock, Matías Mauricio volcó sus inclinaciones artísticas al tango. Hoy enseña y escribe ensayos, libros y letras y, en general, vive y respira el tango en su ciudad natal de Buenos Aires.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: "Capullo de Miel," composed by Javier Arias with lyrics by Matías Mauricio, performed by La Orquesta Típica Misteriosa Buenos Aires with Eliana Sosa | Image Credit: María Aimaretti (Matías is pictured holding a photograph of Enrique Santos Discépolo)
Show Notes/Notas
Learn more about Matías’s work on his website. / Aprende más sobre el trabajo de Matías en su sitio web o leyendo estos artículos.
Read full translations of / lee traducciones completas de "Capullo de Miel" and / y "Mi Noche Triste" courtesy of / gracias al Tango Poetry Project.
Listen to "Instinct Tango, with Aníbal Dominguez" to hear Daniel Melingo's musical interpretation of "En un Bondi Color Humo" / o puedes escuchar el tema directamente aquí y leer el poema aquí.
In the episode Rubén reads this translation of "Tormenta" by Poesía de Gotán. I also recommend checking out Jake Spatz's translation with additional historical context. / En castellano, Tangos al bardo ofrece un buen resumen del contexto histórico de "Tormenta."
Read more about the compadrito. / Lee una definición de "compadrito."
Meredith Klein leads many tango-related projects, among them / guia muchos proyectos relacionados con el tango, entre ellos Philadelphia Argentine Tango School and / y Bochinche Records. Read more about Meredith (in English) and watch her dance / o lee un artículo sobre ella en castellano.
Here are the contemporary tango artists Matías mentioned in his interview (with links) / Aquí van les artistas del tango contemporáneo que mencionó Matías durante su entrevista (con enlaces): Luis Alposta; Roberto Selles; Orquesta Típica Pichuco; La Juan D’Arienzo; Los Reyes del Compas; Romantica Milonguera; Fernandez Fierro; Astillero; Rascasuelos; Cuarteto La Púa; Bombay BsAs; Marisa Vasquez; Cintia Trigo; Patricia Malanca; Alfredo Tape Rubín; Jorge "Alorsa" Pandelucos; Victoria Di Raimondo; Carlos Rossi; Cucuza Castiello; Walter "El Chino" Laborde; Sandra Luna; Lidia Borda; Black Rodríguez Méndez; Eliana Sosa.
Read a transcript of Matías's episode here. / Lee la transcripción del episodio de Matías aquí.
Aja Fenn on the value of committing to our teachers, the significance of the yin-yang symbol to tango, how performance culture has evolved since she started, her philosophy on social dancing, and what's inspiring her 24 years into her tango journey.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: "Duo de Amor" written by Astor Piazzolla, performed by Tango Bardo | Image Credit: Maurice Kaplan
Show Notes
Learn more about Aja's current activities through Fabrica Tango's website or by perusing her YouTube channel, then watch Aja perform with Fabrica co-founder Masha Abapolnikova (in Philly, as mentioned in the episode).
See the trailer of the film that inspired Aja to try tango, The Tango Lesson.
See what Aja's first maestro, Matías Facio, is up to these days, then learn more about legendary milonguero Tete Rusconi and Aja's first practice partner, Mitra Martin.
Learn more about Sharna Fabiano's current work exploring the relationship of lead and follow, then watch clips from TangoMujer performances and a performance where Sharna and Aja switch roles.
Nerd out about the origin of the yin yang.
Watch Brigitta Winkler perform or visit her website, then watch a performance by Nancy Lavoie.
Nerd out about tango nuevo.
Read a transcript of Aja's episode here.
Singer. Producer. DJ. Argentine woman on a mission. Camila Arriva is working in multiple ways to bring women's voices to modern tango. (And yes, she also dances.)
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: "Cantando" by Mercedes Simone; short clips of "Soñando," by Paquita Bernardo with lyrics by Eugenio Cárdenas, and “Ni una Menos” by Verónica Bellini, all performed by Camila Arriva Grupo as part of their MUJERES project | Image Credit: Facu Suárez
Show Notes
To learn more about Camila and MUJERES, visit her website at http://camilaarriva.com.
Listen to a 2018 BBC audio documentary about the feminist revolution in Buenos Aires, read an article about the feminist tango movement, then check out 2 groups Camila mentioned in her interview, Tango Hembra and Movimiento Feminista de Tango.
Listen to Michael Lavocah's episode or visit his website to learn more about tango's Golden Age. Bonus: follow "Volver," the TV channel Camila watched as a child, on social media!
Learn more about Paquita Bernardo and some of the “cancionistas” that inspire Camila (including one who didn’t make it into the episode): Tita Morello, Azucena Maizani, Mercedes Simone, and Nina Miranda.
Hear an NPR podcast on why cumbia is the musical backbone of Latin America, then listen to a playlist of Argentine Cumbia.
Listen to the version of "Ni una Menos" by China Cruel, the band of songwriter Verónica Bellini, then watch a video of Gaby Mataloni and Rocío Lequio dancing to Camila's version.
Read a transcript of Camila's episode here.
"Listen with your bodies, listen with your feet, listen with your heart. Listen with every cell of your body. Listen with your spirit." ~Tango Stories: Musical Secrets
Michael Lavocah danced tango for 20 years before writing his first book. He hasn't stopped since...
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Adiós, Pueblo,” written by Agustín Bardi and performed by Orquesta Típica Ricardo Tanturi, courtesy of Crackling Tunes; and "Tierrita," also written by Agustín Bardi with lyrics by Jesús Fernández Blanco and performed by Alfredo Gobbi y su Orquesta Típica with Héctor Maciel | Image Credit: Veronika Korchak
Show Notes
Check out Michael’s 7 books, starting with Tango Stories: Musical Secrets, then moving on to his Tango Masters series, which to date includes Aníbal Troilo, Osvaldo Pugliese, Carlos di Sarli, Juan D’Arienzo, Francisco Canaro, and Osvaldo Fresedo.
Watch Christine Denniston, Michael's first teacher, talk about her experience with tango.
Learn more about Julio de Caro (the musician who inspired what Michael refers to as the DeCarean school for making complex music), Pedro Laurenz, Pedro Maffia, and Alfredo Gobbi. Then watch Cecilia Berra and Horacio Godoy perform to "Tierrita," the Gobbi tango you hear a clip of in the episode.
Learn more about the singers Michael mentions: Rosita Quiroga, Azucena Maizani, Libertad Lamarque, and Ada Falcón.
Listen to Tango by Year.
Read more about lunfardo, "the secret language of the Tango Rioplatense."
Listen to Humans of Tango episode 6, "Disappearing so tango can talk, with Juan Cantone."
Read a brief musing on cadencia from New-York-based dancer and teacher Ney Melo.
Watch an interview (en español) with "El Gallego" Manolo, from whom Michael learned the figure that digested for 9 months before appearing in his body.
Read a transcript of Michael's episode here.
What does environmental psychology have to do with tango? Quite a lot, it turns out. Tango DJ, teacher, organizer, and social dancer Avik Basu lays it out for us.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Sin Palabras” by Mariano Mores, with lyrics by Enrique Santos Discépolo and performed by Aníbal Troilo y Su Orquesta Típica with Alberto Marino | Image Credit: Steven Thull
Show Notes
Learn more about Avik's work and play in tango and environmental psychology, then learn more about the Inner Experience of Tango survey. (Bonus: listen to Avik on Joe's Tango Podcast!)
Read about Avik's first teachers, Yelena Sinelnikova and Ramu Pyreddy, and the college club in Ann Arbor where Avik started dancing.
Learn more about Mihaly Csikszentmihaly's theory of flow via video or text, then read Charles Walker's chapter on social flow.
Avik mentioned learning from the embraces of Alex Krebs, Cacho Dante, and Gustavo Naveira. Read some musings from Cacho Dante (RIP), then check out Gustavo's and Alex's respective websites.
Read a transcript of Avik's episode here.
"When I was twenty, this was NOT possible..."
A lot has changed in the 25+ years since Sol Orozco started dancing tango in Buenos Aires. Luckily, Sol is a big believer in change - in her own life and in the world around her.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Ilusión de Mi Vida” by Feliciano Brunelli, arranged and recorded by Asato-Pais Duo | Image Credit: Oscar Chang Photography
Show Notes
The music in Sol's episode is a contemporary interpretation by Asato Pais Duo of "Ilusión de Mi Vida." (Read Spanish? Here's some history about the song.) Asato Pais were among the artists gracing the Garufa TangoFest stage. Learn more about them on their website, where you can also find their social channels, including the adorable and incredibly informative music education videos they post on YouTube!
Watch one of my favorite videos of Sol performing (with Juan), then watch a video by Heyni Solera featuring Sol.
Listen to Humans of Tango episodes featuring Juan Cantone and Heyni Solera.
If you have any doubts about why Sol’s family might think of the U.S. as the “big bad monster,” here's some useful background.
Read about the history of knives in tango (and/or watch a video by the same author).
Follow Garufa TangoFest on Facebook or Instagram to stay tuned for August 2024! (Bonus: Watch Juan and his current partner, Virginia Cutillo, perform at the 2023 edition.)
Want to study with Sol? You can follow and contact her through Facebook and Instagram.
Read a transcript of Sol's episode here.
“...so many people in this world, within their own cultural frames, are not able to do everything with their body they could do. And that's a pity.”
Austrian dancer and academic Arno Plass shares what he's learned while talking and dancing his way around Europe and South America for a PhD project on the transformative power of queer tango.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Flor de Montserrat,” composed by Juan Santini with lyrics by Vicente Planells del Campo and arranged and recorded by Sexteto Cristal with Guillermo Rozenthuler | Image Credit: Martín Pérez
Show Notes
Watch Arno's "Una Tanda Queer Con..." series and visit his website to learn more about his work.
Check out Chamuyo Queer's website or follow on Facebook / Instagram to see what's planned for 2024 - including an online Conversatorio like the one that inspired Arno's PhD project!
Listen to the Humans of Tango episode featuring Alex Pacheco Castillo.
Watch Arno's "Una Tanda Queer con..." interview with Gonze E.
Watch Rocío Lequio (of Rocío and Bruno, the couple Arno mentions visiting Vienna) queering her tango with Gaby Mataloni.
Read a transcript of Arno's episode here.
Yolanda Romero Hume gives new meaning to the aphorism YOLO (a.k.a. carpe diem). Find out how she makes the most of every day - in her local DC tango community and around the world.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “El Adiós” composed by Maruja Pacheco Huergo with lyrics by Virgilio San Clemente and arranged and recorded by Sexteto Cristal with Guillermo Rozenthuler | Image Credit: Unknown
Show Notes
Watch a mini-tour of the tango studio in Yolanda's house, featuring paintings by another epic DC-area tanguera - Viviana Levinson.
Watch videos of Jake Spatz; Alejandro Barrientos and Rosalía Gasso; Martín Maldonado and Maurizio Ghella; Serkan Gokcesu and Ozhan Araz; Juan Cantone and Sol Orozco; and Marcelo Gutierrez. (You can also find/connect with most of these folks via Facebook and/or Instagram.)
Listen to the episode of Humans of Tango featuring one of Yolanda's tango children, Juan Cantone.
Read a transcript of Yolanda's episode here.
South Korean honorary New Yorker London Hong thought he was too old to become a professional dancer. Then he fell in love with tango.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Yunta de Oro” composed by Osvaldo Ruggiero and performed and recorded by Tango Bardo | Image Credit: Irina Novak
Show Notes
Watch the Forever Tango performance featuring Carlos Gavito and Marcela Durán that first inspired London’s tango obsession.
Listen to some of London's bandoneon maestros - Rodolfo Zanetti, Javier Sanchez, and Hector Del Curto - and to the NYC-based band London helped found, "Los Peores del Tango."
Visit the website of the tango academy London founded with his dance partner, Sol, or go straight to their YouTube channel.
Learn more about the World Tango Championship (from a former champion!) and check for 2023 updates on the government website of Buenos Aires (en español).
Read a transcript of London's episode here.
"The tango dancing is going to happen, and you don't need to push that hard."
Aníbal Dominguez was on the verge of quitting tango when he discovered contact improv. Since then, dancing has only gotten better...
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “En un Bondi Color Humo” performed by Daniel Melingo with lyrics by Luis Alposta | Image Credit: Alejandro Persichetti
Show Notes
Listen to the radio station Aníbal grew up with, Radio Clarín.
Learn more about Montevideo’s carnaval.
Learn more about Colectivo Periférico in this video that includes Aníbal and one of the teachers he mentions, Eduardo Ferrer (who was also one of my teachers when I lived in Montevideo).
Watch an improvised solo by the founder of contact improv, Steve Paxton.
Watch Daniel Melingo perform "En un Bondi Color Humo" live and read how he created the song, then check out the original poem in Spanish or German on the blog of its author, Luis Alposta.
Read a transcript of Aníbal's episode here.
When Ayano Yoneda moved from her native Japan to San Francisco for a job in finance, she never imagined that a chance encounter with a Halloween "Cinderella's ball" would change her life forever...
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Ninguna” written by Raúl Fernández Siro with lyrics by Homero Manzi and performed by Angel D'Agostino y Su Orquesta Típica with Angel Vargas; and “Amarras,” written by Carlos Marchisio with lyrics by Carmelo Santiago and performed by Alberto Castillo y su Orquesta Típica | Image Credit: Mido Kwon
Show Notes
Learn more about the Tango Poetry Project and watch past lectures on their YouTube channel.
Learn more about Ayano and Felipe and stay updated on their activities. (You can also listen to Felipe's Humans of Tango episode.)
When we spoke, Ayano shared her appreciation for interviews. Some of her favorite sources are Joe's Tango Podcast, Tengo una pregunta para vos, Informal Tango Interviews, and Tango Angeles (I particularly love their episode about Tango Poetry Project). And if you understand Japanese, listen to an interview with Ayano in her native language!
Follow Ayano's teacher Javier Rodriguez on Facebook, or just enjoy watching him perform on YouTube.
Read English translations of "Ninguna" and "Amarras." Also worth noting that the most famous version of "Amarras" was recorded by Héctor Mauré with Juan D'Arienzo y su Orquesta Típica.
Read a transcript of Ayano's episode here.
“...I feel like if tango was more diverse, it would just be richer and more interesting.”
Anthea Okereke’s tango journey has had plenty of highs and lows - but her passion keeps her making a heart with her hands, even when she has to roll her eyes through it.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Viento Norte” written by Juan Carlos Suncho and performed by Sexteto Cristal | Image Credit: John Connatty
Show Notes
Watch Anthea and 5 other brilliant tangueras talk about "Racism, Inclusivity, and Tango" on YouTube or Facebook.
Hear more about stories and stereotypes in a TED Talk by Nigerian writer Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie.
Anthea refers to "wintering," a term I picked up (and introduced to our conversation) after reading Katherine May's Wintering. Highly recommend!
Read a transcript of Anthea's episode here.
Nel Mastrodomenico fell in love with tango music in the tango bars of his native Colombia - but it took an international move in pursuit of the Australian dream to get him dancing and DJing. Today, Nel lives his own Argentinian dream in Buenos Aires.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Toda mi Vida” written by José María Contursi y Aníbal Troilo and performed by Aníbal Troilo y su Orquesta Típica with Francisco Fiorentino | Image Credit: Dos Orillas Practica de Tango Buenos Aires
Show Notes
This episode includes clips of Carlos Gardel singing "Tango Argentino" by Alfredo Bigeschi and Juan Maglio "Pacho" and Juan D'Arienzo y Su Orquesta Típica performing "El Pollito" by Francisco Canaro.
Get familiar with Colombia’s history with tango legend Carlos Gardel (en español).
Read more about the International Day of Tango and Argentina’s National Bandoneon Day.
Nerd out about how records are made.
Learn how political strife and rock n' roll affected tango in Argentina and Uruguay.
Follow Nel on YouTube, Instagram, or Facebook.
Read a transcript of Nel's episode here.
Queer tango teacher and change maker Alex Pacheco Castillo talks about why inclusion is not the same as belonging and what she's doing to foster community in her hometown of Mexico City.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Bailemos” written by Cholo Mamona and Reinaldo Yiso and performed by Susanita Peña | Image Credit: Tango Queer Uruguay
Show Notes
Download the free eBook Alex and I contributed to, Queer Tango Futures: Dancing for Change in a Post-Covid World.
Watch Facebook Live interviews with Gonzalo Souto, Alex's first teacher, and Alex herself (in Spanish).
Alex credits Leticia Nieto with introducing her to many of the ideas that shape her approach to tango, including the distinction between inclusion and belonging. Learn more about Dr. Nieto's 2010 book Beyond Inclusion, Beyond Empowerment.
Here are links to sources of the statistics mentioned: >70% of women in Mexico have experienced some kind of violence; >70% say they feel unsafe in their daily lives; >1,000 women in Mexico were murdered for gender-based reasons in 2021, a 137% increase since 2015; at least 461 people from Mexico’s LGBT+ community died between 2017 and 2021 from violence presumed to be related to their gender identity or sexual orientation.
Read a transcript of Alex's episode here.
Classical guitarist and recording artist Craig Einhorn on the joys and struggles of life and music-making and how a song first intended as "filler" for a CD became a modern tango classic.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Milonguea del Ayer” composed by Abel Fleury and arranged and recorded by Craig Einhorn; “Spetsai Tango” composed by Georges Moustaki and arranged and recorded by Craig Einhorn; improvisations on classical guitar and djembe by Craig Einhorn | Image Credit: Unknown
Show Notes
Find Craig's music on Apple Music, Amazon, Spotify, or YouTube, or follow what he's up to on Facebook.
Watch my favorite video of Chicho and Juana performing to "Milonguea del Ayer."
Learn more about Craig's friends and musical collaborators Rebecca Oswald and Joe Powers.
Listen to Edith Piaf sing “Milord” and hear more of Georges Moustaki's music on YouTube Music or Spotify.
Read a transcript of Craig's episode here.
Spain-born, San-Francisco-based teacher, DJ, and organizer Felipe Martinez explains why he believes art is for everyone and how tradition can nurture the evolution of tango.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Trago Amargo” by Julio Navarrine and Rafael Iriarte, performed by Juan D'Arienzo y Su Orquesta Típica with Alberto Echagüe | Image Credit: Kappu Chino
Show Notes
Learn more about Felipe and Ayano on their website and check out their Tango Poetry Project. Bonus: Read their English translation of "Trago Amargo," the song that accompanies this episode!
Watch an interview (parts 1, 2, and 3) between Pepa Palazón and tango maestra Olga Besio that Felipe described as "gems all over the place" in a part of our conversation that didn't make it into this episode (in Spanish).
Read more about the códigos (a.k.a. codes) of social tango in Buenos Aires.
Read a transcript of Felipe's episode here.
Bandoneonist Heyni Solera shares how her immigration experience shaped her artistic journey and why she thinks the secret to better dancing is to sit down.
Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: "Flores Negras" by Francisco de Caro, arranged by Astor Piazzolla and performed by Heyni Solera | Image Credit: Nikos Zacharakis
Show Notes
Visit Heyni's website to listen to more of Heyni’s music and see what she’s up to.
Learn more about the DC Tango Orchestra.
Listen to Diego Schissi on Soundcloud, or watch videos of Diego Schissi Quinteto, Santiago Segret, and Eva Wolff.
Follow the DC Queer Tango Collective for the latest queer tango activities in the DC area.
Preview an English translation of Argentine Queer Tango: Dance and Sexuality Politics in Buenos Aires, by ethnomusicologist Mercedes Liska. Bonus: Didn’t make it into the episode, but Heyni also shouted out Tango y Feminismo by Anahí Perez Pavez for its argument that queer tango set the stage for feminist tango.
Listen to an interview with Maxfield Wollam-Fisher, the cellist with whom Heyni formed Arco y Aire.
This episode features clips downloaded from the Internet Archive: “9 de Julio,” written by J. L. Pudula and performed by Francisco Canaro y Su Orquesta Típica; and “Como Abrazado a un Rencor,” written by A. M. Podesta and R. Rossi and performed by Horacio Salgán y Su Gran Orquesta Típica with Angel Diaz.
Read a transcript of Heyni's episode here.