Metamodern Spirituality

Philosopher Zak Stein joins me to discuss the "the great post-postmodern project, the reconstruction of value itself," and get into the nuances of what his framework looks like as presented in his new co-authored book First Principles & First Values. What does it mean to say that value is both fundamental and relational? How does a metaphysics of value avoid premodern pitfalls (e.g., the myth of the given, a God's-eye view/view from nowhere, etc.)? What are the challenges posed by language when trying to track value across discontinuities in the complexity stack? Here we compare notes on our respective projects and try to clarify key points. 0:00 Introduction 1:58 Summary Overview of First Principles & First Values 7:35 The Project: A Post-Postmodern Reconstruction of Value 12:44 Is Positing Value as Fundamental a Premodern Move? 32:24 "Value": Avoiding Reification 39:11 Languaging the Reconstruction: Difficulties and Diversity 48:29 The Challenge and Importance of Modern Critique of Value 52:39 "Intimacy" or "Complexity"? Seeking Normative Terminology without Anthropomorphizing 1:03:07 Shifting the Paradigm: Translation or Equivocation? 1:06:25 Panpsychist vs. Emergentist Framings 1:10:26 Shifting Telos across Scales: E.g., Dissipative Structures 1:17:56 Value and Anti-Value 1:22:04 New God: Moving towards the Infinite Intimate 1:27:21 Building the Cathedral/Temple: Living with Sacred Purpose

Process thinker Jared Morningstar joins me to discuss the relationship of metamodernism to traditional forms of religion. How can engaging the traditional frame be done without losing hard-won gains in complexity and perspective-taking? Here Jared advocates for an open, flexible, and epistemically humble form of experimentation and participation in different religious modalities. We consider the role of 'causal opacity' in religious functionality and whether reflection is inherently harmful to generating emergent potential in religious contexts. We also explore the ways traditional faiths may be genuinely engaging with hyper-complex phenomena and how tradition-specific language can be helpful in extending faith into metamodernity. Finally, we discuss the role of plurality and singularity, the general and the particular, in what it means to engage religion from a metamodern perspective. 0:00 Introduction 1:34 Reaction vs. Reconstruction: Which Direction Is Calling? 10:50 Unseen Causes: Participatory Experimentation and Epistemic Humility 17:43 Breaking the Frame: Causation, Disenchantment, and Etic vs. Emic Perspectives 24:25 Moving In and Out of Tradition: Looking Back or Going Back? 35:24 Superstition or Super-Complexity? Parsing Tradition's Relationship with Hyperobjects 50:03 Beyond Perennialism: Religious Pluralism and Traditional Particularity 1:03:09 Living the Openness 1:10:59 Orienting Value in the Uncertainty 1:18:46 Integrating the General and the Particular: Heading Out and Coming Home 1:23:33 Conclusion

Integrative thinker Layman Pascal joins me to talk about the meaning of "God" from a metamodern perspective. How does thinking in terms of "surplus cohesion" point us to a helpful way of relating to all the meanings of the term? Why and when is a 2nd person relationship with Reality warranted? Who is this Face in the Universe summoning us to greater communion and transcendence? How do we communicate about all this across the various memetic sensemaking structures of culture (traditional, modern, postmodern metamodern)? Finally, what can folks expect about the upcoming metamodern spirituality gathering on the topic, which will be hosted at Sky Meadow in May and led by Layman? 0:00 Introduction 1:21 Layman's "Surplus Cohesion" Framework 4:48 God as Ultimate Reality in the 2nd Person 9:52 The Face of the Universe: Seeking the 2nd Person in the Complexity Stack 16:27 Some Framing: Reality as Dynamic Becoming, Not Static Being 21:36 Reflecting on the Alpha and the Omega: Problematizing the "Creator" Image 27:46 But Is This Still God? Communicating across Memetic Tribes 37:22 "Real in What Way?" across Levels of Memetic Complexity 45:05 Summarizing a Metamodern Sort of God 47:06 "God" in Quotation Marks: Moving beyond Totality 52:10 The God Encounter 1:08:12 The Divine Other 1:13:33 Praxis: Courting Visio Divina 1:16:41 Pluralistic Mysticism 1:23:10 Trinity as Dynamic Architectonic Plurality 1:27:08 Naturalism and Metaphysics 1:30:46 God is Love 1:37:20 Talking about "The G Word" 1:39:40 The Upcoming Metamodern Spirituality Lab on "God" at Sky Meadow (May 24-26) More on the metamodern spirituality lab at www.skymeadowinstitute.org

Process theologian Jay McDaniel joins me to discuss the contributions of process thought to the Christian tradition. What points of similarity and dissimilarity are there between process thinking and traditional, modern, and postmodern lenses? 0:00 Introduction 1:06 What Does Theology Look Like from a "Process" Lens? Relationship with Traditional Faith 5:44 A Feeling, Responding God 8:40 Not All-Powerful 14:40 A Dynamic, Living Whole Relationship with Modern Thought 19:41 The Naturalistic Paradigm and (the) Beyond 24:30 A Theology of Organism and Complexity 29:30 "God" as Counter-Entropic Lure and Preserver of Good 39:33 A Modern Gestalt for Christianity? 49:31 Looking Forward, Not Back 54:52 The Pathos of God Relationship with Postmodern Thought 1:04:38 Play, Beauty, Reality Relationship with Metamodernism 1:10:33 Lineages, Legacies, and Futures 1:14:40 Conclusion

Here I lay out my conception of what a metamodern version of Christianity looks like. Drawing on the insights of all the previous cultural paradigms, the revelation of God's nature and the deepening quality of the relationship between God and man can be understood as progressing through a series of covenants/dispensations that map to a learning process unfolding through time. Such a perspective helps us non-arbitrarily coordinate tribal, imperial, traditional, modern, and postmodern conceptions of God that have manifested across sacred history. All of these are necessary and contribute to a coherent story of deepening understanding about and relationship with the ever-transcendent Divine. 0:00 Introduction 0:56 "Metamodern" 5:50 "Christianity" 9:00 Sacred History as Learning and Expansion 11:43 Dynamics of Learning: Assimilation and Accomodation 16:47 Learning as Complexification of Thought 18:04 The Revelation of God as a Learning Process 24:34 1. The Sacred Relationship in the Tribal Epoch 26:12 2. Relationship with God in the Monarchy 29:02 3. Deepening Divine Relationship in the Prophets and Gospels 31:10 Recap: The Arc of Learning God Better 33:41 4. Revelation in the Modern Era 40:05 5. The Way of Jesus in Postmodernity 42:09 6. Metamodern Christianity: Embracing All Stages of Revelation 53:37 Conclusion

In this episode, I assume the modern historical-critical perspective with pastor and 'This Little Corner of the Internet' thinker Paul VanderKlay to explore the tension points it has with the traditional-devotional lens--and to consider if and how these impasses might be transcended. Does history matter to faith and to the faithful? If so, how, when, and why? Can we avoid equivocating discussions around the "reality" of Christianity? How crucial is the nonrational? Overall, we rehearse what challenges the traditional approach to Christianity faces as it develops into modern expressions and interpretations on the way towards a metamodern instantiation. 0:00 Introduction 0:55 The "God Pivot" and Metamodernism: The Missing Modern 7:39 How Does Faith Relate to Modern & Postmodern Critical Approaches? 24:30 The Reality of Religion in Different Psycho-Social Contexts 36:18 Reality vs. History: Language as Metaphor or Fact 52:38 Worldview, Rationality, and Projection 1:04:28 "Spirit": False Substance Reification vs. Real Transjective Relationality 1:07:22 Avoiding Equivocation and Taking Modern Science Seriously 1:20:59 Pragmatic and Developmental Hermeneutics 1:44:16 Nonrationality and the Meaning Crisis 1:59:15 Different Metamodern Spiritual Arcs: The Theological is Personal 2:16:00 Conclusion

In this episode, I offer my own take on the "God Pivot" towards Christianity in the Intellectual Dark Web and adjacent communities (e.g., the liminal web, "This Corner of the Internet," and beyond). Reflecting on my recent interview with Jordan Hall, I see something glaringly absent from the broader conversation: the modern historical-critical perspective. Therefore, I ask: 1) How does the Traditional-Devotional perspective differ from the Modern Historical-Critical one with regard to the Old and New Testaments? 2) What might a metamodern Christianity look like that could successfully and syngergistically toggle between these different lenses to yield something progressive and robust? 0:00 Introduction 4:40 Hermeneutic Lenses: The Traditional-Devotional and Modern Historical-Critical Perspectives 7:46 Old Testament: Traditional-Devotional 13:13 Old Testament: Modern Historical-Critical 32:01 New Testament: Traditional-Devotional 37:53 New Testament: Modern Historical-Critical 47:58 Implications and Synthesis

Following a recent conversion to Christianity, Jordan Hall offers his perspective on the Christian worldview, its orienting beliefs and how they inform (and affirm) ways of being in the world. Brendan brings his own background of being raised in and and leaving the church to the conversation, trying to gain deeper understanding about how one can affirm Christian doctrine in the context of a metamodern world. 0:00 Introduction 2:47 Faith and Understanding: Christian Propositional vs. Participatory Knowing 15:36 Beyond a "Religion vs. Reason" Debate 20:26 Jordan's Reasons to Believe: Scripture, History, 1st Person Experience* 30:36 Jordan Not Impressed by Naturalistic Challenge to the Resurrection 35:56 Notions of Gospel and Sin: Faith Changing Behavior --- For Good or Ill 41:53 Jordan's Rejection of Naturalism and His Faith in Christian Historicity and Ontology 52:21 (Brendan Has a Lot of Responses He Won't Get Into in This Context) 53:07 Self-Confirming Faith: Reciprocal Opening in Other Faiths? 1:02:32 Excursus: Historicity and Hermeneutics of the Doctrine of the Trinity 1:08:52 Self-Confirming Faith: Pathologies in Self-Justifying Beliefs 1:16:20 Self-Confirming Faith: Participatory Knowing and Confirmation Bias 1:27:53 Conclusion

Patrick Barry joins me to continue our discussion about the emerging contours of a metamodern wisdom school and the secular spirituality beginning to fill in the "missing tradition" between and beyond science and religion. 0:00 Introduction 0:34 Towards a Secular Spirituality 5:01 Awe and Mystery in Both Religion and Science 10:25 "Faith" in What Is 17:18 Being Naturally At Home in the Universe 27:08 Past Church and Academia: Forging a New Kind of Wisdom Institution 46:21 A New Story: A Self-Appreciating Cosmos 58:40 Meaning as Awe as Learning 1:04:18 Significance vs. Scale 1:09:58 Speculating on God and Telos: Finding Ourselves in the Depths of Being 1:24:23 Conclusion

Stephen Hicks, a professor of philosophy and author of Explaining Postmodernism, joins me to discuss the transformation of worldviews from the premodern to the modern and from the modern to the postmodern. After his incisive overview of these dramatic shifts, we discuss what it might look like to integrate the genuinely positive contributions of postmodern thought, and consider where we are headed in a post-postmodern world. 0:00 Introduction 1:58 How to Trace Philosophical History 4:15 From Premodern to Modern 15:56 From Modern to Postmodern 34:07 How Do We Move Beyond the Modern and Postmodern while Integrating Their Strengths? 43:28 Relativizing the Critique 51:14 Living After Postmodernism

Patrick Barry, a former science journalist and current coder for the popular Waking Up meditation app, joins me to talk about building wisdom communities and Stoas for secular spirituality. As those who claim no affiliation with organized religion (the "nones") are now the most populous religious identity in America, what institutions of meaning, virtue, and self-reflection might we see appear that can properly meet the needs of metamodern seekers? 0:00 Introduction 4:13 Stoicism, Empiricism, and Secular Spirituality: Towards a Sacred Naturalism 12:55 Science and the Sublime: Finding Significance in the Known 22:52 The Missing Tradition 27:02 Wisdom Gyms for Lived Philosophy: Adding 1st- and 2nd-Person Truths to 3rd-Person Fact 51:30 Know Thyself: A Second Curriculum 57:44 "Broicism"?: Shadow and the Developmental Conveyor Belt 1:03:27 Integrating Tradition and Myth 1:12:02 Stoicism in Metamodernity 1:15:15 Conclusion

I'm joined by Integral thinker, theorist, teacher, writer, and community elder Bruce Alderman to talk about the ongoing love/hate relationship between metamodernism and Integral Theory, especially as the debate has been stirred up anew by the publication of my new book Metamodernism: Or, The Cultural Logic of Cultural Logics. Here we tackle some of the ongoing controversies that continue to swirl in some parts of the metamodern discourse, especially around the degree to which Ken Wilber and his formulation of the post-postmodern does/does not, should/should not inform our understanding of theories of the metamodern. Given the relationship that does exist, how do we best acknowledge and utilize it in pragmatic and integrous ways? How do we properly parse and distinguish these post-postmodern paradigms? What are the genuine fault lines and distinguishing characteristics of each framework, and what's just meme fluff? 0:00 Introduction (1:16, 3:30 Bruce card) 1:55 Bruce's Integral Context/Background 5:06 Brendan's Metamodern Context/Background 8:07 Did Hanzi Just Rip Off Wilber? 13:03 Did Hanzi Just Steal the Term "Metamodern" for an Integral Framework? 25:26 Has the Ship Sailed? Could Metamodernism Be the Future of Integral? 42:48 Did Brendan Just Excise/Ignore Wilber? 51:33 Does Metamodernism Offer a Workable Social Science Where Integral Doesn't? 1:01:03 The "Woo" Factor 1:14:15 Conclusion

Embodiment practitioner and teacher Ēlen Awalom joins me to talk about the promise and necessity of bringing more embodied wisdom into our world and, especially, our online spaces. We consider some approaches one can use in the context of triggering or polarizing engagements in digital forums in an attempt to return the focus back to the body and lived emotional experience in very disembodied contexts. Finally, we talk in broad terms about the importance of increasing our somatic intelligence in all areas of life, whether that's in response to the meta-crisis or our own interpersonal relationships. 0:00 Introduction 2:00 Bringing More Embodiment to Metamodern Discourse 9:13 Responding with Somatic Intelligence: Step 1. Center Yourself and Feel the Emotion 16:47 Step 2. Respond with Open Questions 20:00 Step 3. Use "I Statements" 23:15 Step 4. Know When to Step Back 31:20 The Challenge of Bypassing 36:19 Intentions for Embodied Leadership 50:19 Conclusion

Whitehead scholar and process thinker Matt Segall joins me to deepen our conversation about responses to the meaning crisis as it relates to reconnecting cosmos, consciousness, and value. In this discussion, we dive into the topic of "prehension," an idea from Whitehead that posits an experiential component to all phenomena in the universe. 0:00 Introduction 5:08 Prehension: Not Interior, but the Interior/Exterior Bridge 12:06 Prehension and Panpsychism 16:27 Identifying Basal Experience: Subjectivity and Time 25:52 Experience and Complexity 33:40 Attempting to Describe Fundamental Experience 47:06 Is Time Subjective? 54:36 Metaphysics and Novelty: Evolving Laws? 1:00:16 The Spectrum of Consciousness 1:04:22 Whitehead vs. Anthroposophy? 1:10:28 Philosophy's Role in a Scientific Age 1:21:43 Next Steps

Matt Segall joins me to debate the relative merits of "anthroposophical" aproaches to addressing the meaning crisis, such as those adopted in the works of Steiner, Stein and Gafni, and, to some degree, Whitehead. 0:00 Introduction 4:15 Revisiting the Image of Nature: Revitalizing Romanticism? 12:00 Humans in a Cosmos or a Cosmos Known by Humans? 21:17 Is Mechanism Just a Part of the Process? Emergence All the Way Down 30:05 Advance or Regression? Thinking in Terms of Assimilation and Accomodation 38:13 Defining a "Mechanistic" Approach: The Minimal Need for Causality 41:17 Retrojecting Novelty into Primals? Positing "Prehension" 57:01 Upshot: So...Is the Universe Expanding or Not? 1:11:52 Against a Model--or ...Models? 1:17:13 What Does an "Emodied" Knowledge Entail? 1:25:25 Conclusion

Dr. Michael Mascolo is a developmental psychologist who has written on hierarchical complexity as well as "moral relationalism." In this conversation, we discuss the Dynamic Skill Theory of cognitive complexification before considering what it might mean for moral reasoning. We debate the normative implications of complexification itself, navigating the polar extremes of moral absolutism and moral relativism using a transjective framing. What value is there in tracing value itself down the evolutionary stack? What does this suggest about agency and free will? 0:00 Introduction 0:46 Hierarchical Complexity: Dynamic Skill Theory vs. MHC 9:48 Domains of Development: Particulars and Generalizations 16:00 The Moral Domain 19:47 What is a "Skill"? What is...Anything? 23:33 Is Complexity Normative? 32:48 Moral Relativism vs. Moral Relationalism 43:04 Ontological Normativity 55:30 Where Does "Morality" Emerge in the Complexification Process? 1:04:16 Agency, Emergent Causation, and Free Will 1:11:43 Conclusion

Jared Morningstar discusses the nexus of metamodernism and the Islamic tradition with me, using his recent essay for Emerge (linked below) as a way into the topic. We explore multi-perspectival approaches to traditionalism, and what it means to integrate its insights in a metamodern context. Jared also brings to bear his knowledge of process thought to the topic. 0:00 Introduction 1:43 Washing the Heel 12:06 Insight from the Past, or Salvaging from the Future? 15:45 Attractions to Different Religiosities Based on Biography 29:52 Pluralism and Dogma 37:10 The Dialectic of Autonomy and Constraint 34:52 Ritual and Ontology: Angels 46:42 Islam and Process Theology 57:23 From Traditional (+ Anti-Modern) to Modern to Postmodern 1:12:36 Towards a Metamodern Islam 1:18:30 Follow Jared's Work

Bonnitta Roy and I explore the meaning of complexification and the evolutionary narrative. After some introductory context on Bonnie's prior engagement in the "scene" of integrative metatheory, we find our way to the topic of teleology (i.e., the apparent goal-directedness of nature). From there Bonnie outlines some of the pivotal mutations in the evolutionary narrative that have increased organism's capacity for abstraction. We discuss whether the directionality of these processes is captured in models of hierarchical complexity, or if other sorts of maps are needed to appreciate the evolution of mind. 0:00 Introduction 1:37 Bonnie's Background in Integrative Metatheory 12:30 On Integral vs. Metamodern: Problems with Stage Theories 17:53 On (Apparent) Teleology 21:00 The Story of Pivotal Mutations Up the Evolutionary Stack 31:22 Teleology* towards Increasing Causal Power 41:09 Getting Beyond Thoughts: Pure Abstractions vs. Categorical Abstractions 45:30 Information and Pure Abstractions: Direct Perception of the Causal Manifold 49:55 Is Increasing Hierarchical Complexity Getting Closer to the Causal Manifold? 1:03:27 Complexification as Recursively Finding New Vantage Points 1:12:38 Increasing Degrees of Freedom without Increasing Complexity? 1:15:22 Intimations and Afterthoughts: Directions for Further Discussion

Could AI become conscious? Is it already? Everyone seems to be talking about this, yet little of the discussion is actually informed by grounded theories of consciousness and mind. In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Gregg Henriques, professor of psychology at James Madison University, originator of the unified theory of knowledge framework, and the author of 'A New Synthesis for Solving the Problem of Psychology' to talk about the prospect of consciousness in AI. After zeroing in on just what we mean by "consciousness" in this sense (to get past the endless equivocation commonly found in these discussions), Gregg and I get to the heart of the matter. 0:00 Introduction 2:00 The Question: Can AI Be(come) Conscious? 4:40 (Context: Gregg's Work to Address Confusions about Mind) Part I: What Do We Mean By "Consciousness"? 8:33 Three Definitions: 9:07 (1) Cognition 18:08 (2) Subjective Conscious Experience (The One I Mean) 19:57 (3) Egoic Self-Consciousness Part II: AI and Consciousness 23:08 Could AI Have (2) Subjective Conscious Experience? 29:00 Beyond the Turing Test Standard 33:10 Panpsychist and Idealist Challenges? 35:46 Functional Parallels Are Not Equivalence 37:50 Approaching the Fifth Joint Point 50:17 What Should We Value: Intelligence or Sentience?

Jason Ānanda Josephson Storm discusses conceptions of value after postmodernism. Is postmodernism a nihilistic relativism or an activist moralism? Critics have accused it of both. What values pervade the postmodern academic paradigm? How do value conceptions shift when the postmodern paradigm gets diffused in popular culture? Is the "is-ought distinction" actually valid? What would a positive value project look like, and what are its benefits? Finally, what comes next for metamodernism and Storm's work? 0:00 Introduction 0:52 Postmodernism: Relativist or Activist? Nihilist or Moralist? 9:11 Value vs. Critique 17:07 Politics and Academia 22:17 Postmodern Diffusions 31:04 Is vs. Ought: Who's Afraid of Normativity? 38:04 Systematic Metamodern Philosophy 43:08 Imagining a Positive Future: Ethics and Wisdom 55:55 How Can Academia Reincorporate Wisdom? 59:42:21 Towards a Paradigm Shift: The Future of Metamodernism 1:09:35 Paradigm Projects 1:14:49 What's Next?