Positive Disintegration Podcast

In episode 57, Chris and Emma talked with Summer Cowick, an educator with over 15 years of classroom experience specializing in gifted education in Kansas City. Through her coaching organization, Brilliant And Then Some, Summer strives to empower gifted and talented children and their families, guiding them through individual circumstances to unlock their full potential and achieve lasting happiness. For educators and parents, this episode offers practical insights and strategies for supporting overexcitable and gifted students. This is the first time we explicitly address the issue of overexcitability in the classroom. We discussed the impact of Dabrowski’s theory in educational settings, and how understanding overexcitabilities can transform teaching and learning experiences.Our discussion covered a wide range of topics, from applying Dabrowski's theory in the classroom to understanding giftedness beyond the stereotypical traits and the crucial role authenticity plays in education. Summer shared some challenges and strategies for recognizing and nurturing giftedness in students from diverse racial and socio-economic backgrounds. We talk about the crucial role of authenticity for both students and teachers, including how it influences educational outcomes and personal development.We all shared personal anecdotes about giftedness and overexcitabilities at school. We hope this conversation will help illuminate the complexities of navigating education, including the challenges of sensory overloads, and maintaining personal autonomy and authenticity in overwhelming environments. Summer’s experiences and insights remind us of the power of understanding and leveraging psychological theories like Dabrowski’s to enhance educational practices and support students’ unique needs. Whether you are a teacher, parent, or someone interested in the psychology of education, this episode provides valuable perspectives on making education a more inclusive and transformative experience.Make sure you listen to the end so you can enjoy our hilarious outtakes!Resources from this episodeBrilliant and Then Some (Summer’s website)2024 Dabrowski Congress info page. Summer’s session is “The Real Deal—OEs in the Classroom.” Click here to register.“Mellow Out,” They say. If I Only Could: Intensities and Sensitivities of the Young and Bright” by Michael M. PiechowskiLiving with Intensity by Susan Daniels and Michael M. Piechowski (Eds.)Sneaky Stimming video by EmmaEpisode 56: Autoethnography for Personal GrowthMental Floss article: When Tipper Gore Took On 80s Rock MusicConnect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

[Voiceover of written post] The song You’ll Never Walk Alone began life on Broadway in 1945, thanks to Rodgers and Hammerstein. It was instantly popular, and has been covered by many artists over the years. But in 1963, Gerry And The Pacemakers did their version, and Liverpudlian magic was made. The song has been fully adopted by Liverpool FC, being sung before every game, and the words ‘You’ll Never Walk Alone’ being incorporated into the team emblem and forged into the gates of Anfield stadium.It is an uplifting song of hope. The lyrics convey comfort and solidarity. To many, the message of this song is clear—in times of trouble, you’re not alone. But if we dig a little deeper, we start to understand the true nature of the troubled times. We start to understand the reasons why you’ll never walk alone. More importantly, we can explore how this underlying message is a critical component for navigating Dabrowski’s framework of positive disintegration. Walk the path towards your authentic self, and you’ll never walk alone. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

Welcome to the first official “From the Archive” post. We’ve added DC Archive to our Substack navbar, where you’ll find posts like this one with media shared from our Dabrowski Center archive. The presentation featured in this post was given by Dr. Michael M. Piechowski at the 12th Annual Hollingworth Conference for Highly Gifted in Manchester, New Hampshire, in May 1999.This audio recording was converted to mp3 from a cassette tape Michael sent to Chris in June 2018. The handout was discovered in a box of transparencies and documents Michael shared with Chris in May 2021. For those who are new here, Michael joined us on Episode 48 of the podcast. Click here for more posts and episodes mentioning Michael.Only the first 45 minutes of the recording were available. The rest is missing in audio, but you can find it in the handout. Visit the Substack post for the handout and transcript. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 56, Chris and Emma discussed autoethnography as a research method, and powerful tool for autopsychotherapy and transformation. Chris described autoethnography as a method for delving into one's life (usually through writing about it), not as an isolated individual but within the broader context of social and cultural influences. This method allows you to understand yourself within systems, considering factors like race, gender, class, privilege, oppression, and trauma.Emma and Chris emphasized the value of gaining insights into your past experiences and behaviors. You can identify turning points and epiphanies, leading to a deeper understanding of yourself. By reflecting on personal history, you uncover patterns, traumas, and societal influences that have shaped your identity. This method also allows you to view your life through the lens of positive disintegration, and identify dynamisms, overexcitabilities and moments of disintegration.Chris shared this quote from Christopher Poulos’s Essentials of Autoethnography:“The deep emotional introspection associated with this form of academic writing comes with inherent vulnerability and exposure to the judgment of others, along with the possibility of opening up old trauma, stirring up painful memories, digging into taboo subjects, or sparking grief or other deep emotions.” We discussed our different approaches to this work because the method can be tailored to suit individual preferences and comfort levels. While Chris delves deep into coding journal entries and conducting in-depth research, Emma mentions more accessible approaches like writing about past experiences, talking to others, or reviewing your past social media posts.By utilizing different mediums for self-expression (like art, or video recordings), you can explore personal narratives in diverse ways, uncovering hidden emotions, patterns, and perspectives that may not be apparent through traditional writing alone. Emma shared how she found watching herself in a video discussing her feelings to be enlightening, and that seeing facial expressions and body language helped her understand her emotions better. Chris mentioned the importance of being prepared for the emotional impact of autoethnography. They discussed the need for space, time, and self-care to process the unearthed traumas and painful memories. The process may involve re-traumatizing yourself to some extent, but it can also lead to healing and self-compassion. This multi-dimensional approach allows for a more comprehensive exploration of identity, experiences, and relationships, ultimately leading to a deeper understanding of yourself and your place in the world.Resources from this episodeThe Primary Importance of the Inner Experience of Giftedness, a paper Chris wrote based on the work they described from 2014. Interesting Quotes, Vol. 10 on autoethnographyEssentials of Autoethnography by Christopher N. PoulosConnect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 55, Chris and Emma talked with Kaitlin Smith, a Boston-based scholar, facilitator, and founder of Our Wild Minds, which offers online community and programs that help gifted BIPOC unleash their natural gifts. Kaitlin is also a PhD student at Harvard in History of Science where her research interrogates the history of mind sciences and intersections with African American Studies.Kaitlin shared how her personal experiences and challenges led her to explore Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration and its relevance to her life and studies. She discussed the complexities of being gifted within the context of racial and cultural identities. She reflected on the challenges faced in her journey, including her experiences with racism and stereotyping within academia as a social work student and therapist-in-training.Kaitlin detailed the creation and mission of Our Wild Minds, a program designed to support gifted BIPOC individuals in unleashing their natural gifts. She outlined the various components of the community and the WildMinder Journey, which includes introspection, connection, learning, manifestation, and giving back.We learned about Kaitlin’s online course, Black Brilliance Circle, which serves as a space for gifted Black adults to explore their identities, challenges, and potential. She discusses the richness of bringing together individuals from diverse backgrounds and the power of community in fostering growth and understanding.Our conversation delved into the idea of “Decolonizing Giftedness.” We discussed the importance of addressing the roots of gifted education, as well as challenging and dismantling the biases and assumptions that have historically shaped the field. Kaitlin emphasized embracing complexity and intersectionality in understanding and supporting gifted individuals.We explored the concept of positive maladjustment and its relevance to navigating and challenging oppressive systems. We discussed the importance of self-reflection, learning, and unlearning as crucial tools for both personal growth and societal transformation.The episode concluded with reflections on the importance of lifting others as we climb, and the transformative potential of engaging in deep, meaningful conversations across differences. We are grateful for Kaitlin’s willingness to share her journey and insights with our audience.The quotes Chris mentioned by Dr. Ibram X. Kendi:“The only way to undo racism is to consistently identify and describe it and then dismantle it. The attempt to turn this usefully descriptive term racist into an almost unusable slur is, of course, designed to do the opposite, to freeze us into inaction”And"Like fighting an addiction, being an antiracist requires persistent self-awareness, constant self-criticism, and regular self-examination."Resources from this episodeKaitlin’s website Our Wild MindsBlack Brilliance CircleHow to Be an Antiracist by Dr. Ibram X. KendiConnect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

Episode 54 features the presentation Chris and Emma gave at Gift-a-Palooza 2024, a virtual summit with more than 45 speakers on the topics of giftedness and neurodiversity. This was our first time presenting together, and we had a great time. We edited the audio from our discussion of positive disintegration in gifted adults. The Q&A isn't included.If you’re reading this on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or another podcast platform, please visit the show notes on Substack for the slide images. This first slide is Emma’s representation of the process of positive disintegration. [From the transcript] Emma: “When you think you know who you are, everything starts to fall apart. You can go through a process then of sorting things out and trying to reshape. It's a little bit like pulling apart Lego bricks and rebuilding yourself, figuring out what goes at the top and what goes at the bottom… Disintegration's not just a linear, straight-through process. You don't just go step one, two, three, four, five. Through your life, you will get moments where new informational circumstances will come in and it can start that cycle of development again.”The next slide gives insight into values. From Emma: “When we think about what values are, they are the principles or the standards that we have in place for ourselves that drive our behavior, But they're based on what we see as important in life. So, you can see that little diagram I've got. You've got everything that you believe to be true in life and what your priorities are… Based on that, you then build out standards for yourself of how you think you should behave. And then your behaviors come out the back of that.”At the 08:30 mark of this episode, Chris tackled the difference between the unilevel and multilevel processes. On the next slide, we offered an overview of the dynamisms, which can be defined as inner forces that shape and direct our development. At 15:22, Chris described the overexcitabilities as the raw material for producing dynamisms.The path to authenticity represented by a strutting cat. From Emma: "[The path has] got to be self-created because you're the only one who can define what you believe, what's important to you. So then, what are your values? You're the only one who can truly say who you are authentically inside... Think about what's important to you, think about what you really value, and then look at your behavior and say, am I walking my talk? And if I'm not, what can I do to change that to make sure that I am behaving in a way that aligns with my values?" From Chris: “The heart of this theory is inner transformation. It's what the dynamisms are all about: helping you shape yourself into who you're meant to be, who you want to be... One of the beautiful things about positive disintegration is that it can be a creative process of self-development based on your values.”Just after the 25-minute mark, Chris and Emma began discussing their own experiences of positive disintegration, represented by this Disintegration Timeline. We had a blast presenting together at Gift-a-Palooza, and we can’t wait to team up on July 11, 2024, at the Dabrowski Congress for a 90-minute workshop called “Walking Your Talk: How to Define and Live Your Values.” Click here or go to https://dabrowskicenter.org/DC2024 for more about #DC2024.Links from this episodePositive Disintegration on SubstackAdults with Overexcitabilities on YouTubeMichael’s book Mellow Out2024 Dabrowski CongressGift-a-Palooza 2024 recordings are still available from Gifted & Thriving. Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchJoin us for the 2024 Dabrowski Congress, July 11-13, 2024. Virtual and in-person options.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 53, Chris and Emma discussed some of the “red flags” to be aware of when consuming content on positive disintegration. They discussed the importance of being aware of potentially problematic sources, particularly for those who are new to the theory. By sharing examples of red flags in other areas of their lives, they aim to help listeners navigate through potentially misleading information (or messages which may do them harm) and encourage critical thinking. Red flag behaviors we covered include:* Discouraging Authenticity: It's crucial to be open and accepting of who others are and who they say they are. The theory of positive disintegration is all about being authentic, so if someone is trying to discourage you from expressing yourself authentically, further investigation is needed.* Canon Purists: Be mindful of when individuals only focus on one perspective. While Dabrowski's work is highly valuable, it's crucial to expand on it and approach positive disintegration as an evolving experience, rather than a rigid theory.* Speculation Without Evidence: We need to be mindful that data, evidence and validation are critical to our understanding of positive disintegration. Question sources, think critically, and look for evidence to back up arguments.* Level Labelers: Watch out for those who categorize individuals into levels or hierarchies based on their development. Positive disintegration is a dynamic process, and it's essential to avoid labeling yourself or others in a way that limits growth and understanding. Embrace the journey and focus on the process rather than fixed levels.* Developmental Potential Elitists: Overexcitability is not only for the gifted. Positive disintegration is a tool that can help people navigate crises. Let’s not limit who we can help!* People who are mean: Personal attacks and punching down are not aligned with the wonderful messages of compassion that are found in the theory.Remember to trust your instincts, question sources, and always strive for empathy and authenticity in your interactions.Links from this episodeEpisode 48: Piechowski’s Insights on Positive Disintegration for more on why it’s best to avoid becoming a “Level Labeler.”Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchJoin us for the 2024 Dabrowski Congress, July 11-13, 2024. Virtual and in-person options. If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 52, Chris and Emma talked with Laura Stavinoha, who offers singers and speakers coaching and counseling about the voice and personal development through her company, Use Your Voice. Laura is the author of the book Voice: A Multifaceted Approach to Self-Growth and Vocal Empowerment and editor-in-chief of the Dutch Positive Disintegration website. She will join us in Denver this summer to present her work at the 2024 Dabrowski Congress. The human voice is a tool for communication, and a reflection of our inner state. Laura discusses how the voice can provide insights into our emotions, stress levels, and personal development. She says our voice is connected to the nervous system and can be influenced by our emotions. When we experience feelings such as nervousness, excitement, or anger, our voice can undergo changes. This connection between emotions and the voice is well-known, as many of us have experienced our voices trembling or becoming shaky when we are anxious or stressed.We talk about the role of overexcitabilities in the voice. Overexcitabilities are heightened sensitivities and intensities that can manifest in different ways, including in the voice. For instance, individuals with psychomotor overexcitability may have rapid speech patterns or a tendency to talk compulsively. Individuals with imaginational overexcitability may experience rapid shifts in thoughts and ideas during conversation. Laura describes how the voice can be a symptom of the conflicts and tensions that arise as we strive for personal growth and self-actualization. These conflicts can manifest in our voice—e.g., feeling constricted or unable to express ourselves authentically. Dynamisms are inner forces that can manifest as inner conflicts and tensions that arise during the process of positive disintegration. These conflicts can be reflected in the voice, through hesitations, inconsistencies, or changes in tone.Laura explains that the autonomic nervous system influences the voice in the same way it influences other bodily functions like heart rate and breathing. Regulating the nervous system through practices like meditation or yoga can have a positive impact on the voice. The human voice can provide valuable insights into our inner state. It can reflect our emotions, stress levels, and personal development. By paying attention to our voice and working on its development, we can gain a deeper understanding of ourselves and enhance our communication with others.Highlights00:03:34 How Laura discovered the theory00:07:34 Laura’s path to authenticity00:14:23 The importance of purpose00:17:00 Reflection on developing one’s voice00:18:39 Do you like the sound of your own voice?00:22:33: Chris’s voice issues00:27:11 Tension and the voice00:28:28 When Laura’s voice failed her00:30:28 OEs and the autonomic nervous system00:34:26 How OEs manifest over time00:37:12 Jamie’s case and ADHD00:39:45 Overexcitability and neurodivergence00:42:00 TPD as a liberating theory00:43:54 Coexistence of unilevel and multilevel dynamisms00:47:03 Voice as an indicator of well-being00:51:09 Going beneath the surface00:55:05 Doing the developmental work00:56:51 TPD and polyvagal theoryOverall, working on the voice goes beyond simply improving vocal techniques. It involves understanding the connection between the voice and the nervous system, addressing underlying emotional and psychological factors, and developing a holistic approach to voice development.Resources from this episodeUse Your Voice (Laura’s website)The book Voice: A Multifaceted Approach to Self-Growth and Vocal Empowerment by Laura Stavinoha (Amazon)Voice Problems as Signs of Positive Disintegration (Laura’s 2022 Congress presentation on YouTube)Positieve Desintegratie (in Dutch)2024 Dabrowski Congress page. Registration opens later this week!Connect with usPositive Disintegration [Substack]Visit the Dabrowski Center websitePositive Disintegration Podcast [Facebook]Positive Disintegration Podcast [Instagram]The Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelDabrowski Center [LinkedIn]Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by Emma NicholsonEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 51, Chris and Emma shared the news that they are presenting at a virtual summit, Gift-a-Palooza, and discussed their plans for the session. This is also the first episode where we’ve included outtakes at the end. We hope our errors and laughter are as amusing for you as they were for us! [Click here for Episode 54 and listen to the audio from our session.]Gift-a-Palooza will be the first time Chris and Emma team up for a presentation. Their session is “Navigating the Tides of Change: Positive Disintegration in Gifted Adults,” and it’s happening on Saturday, February 3, from 4:15-5:30 pm EST. The full conference dates are February 1-4, 2024, and there’s a fantastic lineup with something for everyone in the gifted community. From the hosts, Dr. Michael and Julie Postma of Gifted & Thriving: “This 4-day celebration is dedicated to helping individuals and families in our Gifted & Multi-Exceptional community move from a place of surviving to thriving—by coming together to share and explore our experiences, challenges and joys! This year, we're bringing together 45+ top experts for an array of engaging discussions, live Q&As and special events for educators, families, adults, health professionals and other community members!”If you want to join us, please consider signing up with our affiliate link. The cost is $139 USD for all access. Links from this episodeClick here to sign up! (Affiliate link: https://www.giftedandthriving.com/a/2147748168/TznuMaEi)Gifted & Thriving (website) This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 50, Chris and Emma talked with Dr. Deborah Ruf, author of the award-winning book 5 Levels of Gifted. In 2023, she released a follow-up book called The 5 Levels of Gifted Children Grown Up: What They Tell Us. Our conversation highlights her expertise in studying giftedness and personality across the lifespan.We started the episode by asking Deborah to share her journey, and learned how she was first introduced to Dąbrowski’s theory in the early 1990s. Her dissertation study included the theory of positive disintegration, which she has worked with for many years. We discussed how she incorporated the theory into her work while exploring the complexities of giftedness, including its intersection with personality types and life circumstances. Our personalities have a profound impact on our relationships with others as well as with our own self-understanding. Chris shared a few quotes from The 5 Levels of Gifted Children Grown Up during our discussion, including this one about the importance of the environment on development:“It is not the high IQ or intellectual level that causes personal problems for many of our most intellectually gifted people. It is the ongoing presence of a poor environmental “fit” during their childhood. The better the fit, the better the social, emotional, and any other kind of well-being outcome measure, they will have.” (Ruf, 2023)Overall, this episode underscores the multifaceted nature of intelligence and personality, shaping our interactions, self-perception, and adaptation to various environments. Embracing and understanding ourselves can lead to personal growth and improved relationships with others. We highlight the importance of adopting multiple lenses and frameworks to reach a fuller understanding. As complex individuals with diverse backgrounds, strengths, and environments, we require various perspectives to deepen our understanding, heal from past experiences, and develop.Deborah emphasized that personality tests are not fixed and can change as we evolve. Personality tests offer insights into our current state, and by taking them multiple times, we can observe our growth and understand how different factors and periods in our lives impact our moods and responses. Highlights00:02:30 - Dr. Ruf's Journey to Dabrowski's Theory00:05:42 - Personal Growth and Weaving Theories00:08:29 - The Challenges of Funding Research00:13:45 - Personality Matters00:19:55 - An Example of Self-Understanding00:23:20 - The Need for Multiple Perspectives 00:26:26 - Impact of Personality on Life Choices00:32:41 - Importance of Environmental Fit for Gifted Individuals00:34:48 - Round Pegs in Square Holes00:39:25 - Environmental Fit Issues Continue in Adulthood00:42:15 - Transcending Psychological Type00:43:57 - The Intersection of Giftedness and Personality00:48:17 - Levels of Giftedness 00:56:45 - The Issue of Multiple-Exceptionalities00:59:35 - Understanding and Overcoming Trauma01:04:39 - Apologizing Without Excuses01:06:09 - The Complexity of Personal Identity and Labels* A transcript of this episode is available on our website. Resources from this episodeThe 5 Levels of Gifted Children Grown Up: What They Tell Us (Amazon)5 Levels of Gifted: School Issues and Educational Options (Amazon)Keys to Successfully Parenting the Gifted Child (Amazon)Gifted Through the Lifespan (Dr. Ruf on Substack) Five Levels of Gifted (Dr. Ruf’s website)Karen Nelson’s 1989 paper from Advanced Development JournalConversations on Gifted Trauma podcast Personality Page (The price is now $6.99 per test, but worthwhile for those who are interested)Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 49, Chris and Emma delve into the topic of socialization. We discussed how our understanding of socialization has evolved and how it plays a role in personal growth. We emphasized the deliberate nature of multilevel development and that individuals must actively and consciously engage in the process. Simply going through life on autopilot or relying on automatic responses and behaviors is not enough. We must be intentional and self-created in our individual approaches to personal growth.We shared insights on the fluid nature of socialization and how it intertwines with the development of dynamisms in our lives. We reflected on the impact of socialization on personal growth and the challenges one must face. Sometimes, the heart does not want to let go of certain beliefs, even if the mind cognitively understands that they may not be beneficial. This emotional attachment to certain beliefs can be a challenge to overcome in the journey of personal growth.We emphasized the importance of self-reflection and critical examination of our motivations and beliefs to understand the extent to which others have influenced them. By doing so, we can better understand ourselves and make more conscious choices in our lives. We discussed the importance of developing confidence in one's own path and not relying on external validation. We also acknowledged that external feedback can serve as a reminder or a prompt to check one's compass and ensure they are heading in the right direction.Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 48, Chris and Emma talked with Dr. Michael M. Piechowski, close collaborator of Dr. Kazimierz Dąbrowski and a scholar in the field of gifted education. Michael’s work has expanded our understanding of the theory of positive disintegration and the qualitative experience of giftedness.We covered many topics in this episode, from Michael meeting Dąbrowski in Edmonton in 1967 to his retirement from Yunasa last summer. We learned about Michael’s early work with the theory and conducting research, the transition from science to counseling and pursuing a second doctorate, rethinking the levels of development, and understanding the importance of the unilevel and multilevel processes.Michael talked with us about the research he did with Dąbrowski that provided a foundation for his work. We learned about the creation of his original Overexcitability Questionnaire, his second dissertation, Formless Forms, and his two papers from more recent years called Rethinking Dąbrowski’s Theory. We discussed why he felt it was necessary to rethink the levels and what case material was applied to this work.This episode was recorded at Michael’s home during Chris’s visit to Madison, Wisconsin, and the format is conversational. We learned more about what Dr. Dąbrowski was like as a person and how to pronounce his name correctly. Michael also talked with us about what areas of research he’d like to see replicated or built on in the future.Highlights from Episode 48:00:02:59 Meeting Dąbrowski in Edmonton00:06:18 Summer 1968 at Esalen00:09:22 Science and counseling are different00:10:46 Multilevelness research with Dąbrowski00:17:14 Formless Forms00:25:51 Rethinking levels of development00:34:17 Bandura’s mechanisms of moral disengagement00:42:09 Levels as universes00:46:42 Future areas of research00:49:00 What Dąbrowski was like00:51:03 The need to replicate Lysy’s study00:53:20 YunasaExtended show notes are available for paid subscribers. *There is a transcript available for this episode on our website. Links from this episodeVisit the Piechowski Archive on the Dabrowski Center’s websiteMichael’s book Mellow Out is available via Royal Fireworks PressMichael is co-editor of Living with Intensity and Off the Charts.He is a Senior Fellow of the Institute for Educational Advancement.Michael mentioned co-creating Yunasa with two of his dear friends who have also been podcast guests: Episode 19 with Stephanie Tolan and Episode 35 with Dr. Patty Gatto-Walden.Chris has written posts about Michael with links and photos to accompany this episode, including:Who is Michael M. Piechowski?Celebrating a Lifetime of Resilience, Scholarship, and InfluenceMy Experience of Being a StudentMajor works that were mentioned:Michael’s 1975 monographFormless FormsLysy & Piechowski (1983)Rethinking Dabrowski’s Theory: I. The Case Against Primary Integration (2014)Rethinking Dąbrowski’s Theory II: It’s Not All Flat Here (2017)Michael’s ResearchGate ProfileEpisode 18 with Rachel FellEpisode 36: Fostering Gifted Growth at YunasaConnect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 47, Chris and Emma talked with Katy McDaniel and Emily Strand from the Potterversity podcast. Katy is a professor of history at Marietta College, and Emily is a professor of religious studies at Mt. Carmel College of Nursing. Emma is the technical director for Potterversity, so her worlds collide in this conversation. We kicked off the discussion by learning more about how the Potterversity pod used to be called something else. It was renamed because of the comments made by the creator of Harry Potter in 2020, which led to the whole team rethinking and realigning their values. We talked about the difficulties of loving art while grappling with problematic artists and authors. Values in the Harry Potter series were a major part of this episode, and we discussed multiple scenes and characters through the lens of positive disintegration. We engaged in a thought-provoking conversation about the significance of difficult emotions and their contribution to personal growth and transformation. We acknowledged the societal pressure to constantly pursue happiness and challenge the notion that something must be wrong if one is not always happy. Embracing powerful and challenging emotions is essential for personal development and transformation.The Harry Potter books do not promise a life devoid of troubles or a fairy-tale ending. Instead, it presents a narrative of alchemical transformation, where characters undergo loss and face challenges, ultimately emerging as something greater. Positive disintegration was explored in this episode as the process of breaking down and reconstructing one's values and sense of self. This transformative journey often entails experiencing difficult emotions such as guilt, shame, ambivalence, and concern for others' opinions. By breaking free from societal scripts and expectations, akin to the characters in Harry Potter, individuals can foster personal growth and authenticity.Overall, the episode underscores the importance of embracing difficult emotions and experiences as catalysts for personal growth and transformation. It challenges the societal expectation of constant happiness and highlights the value of navigating challenging periods to achieve personal development.Links from this episodePotterversity podcastPotterversity Episode 39: Considering Cockroach Clusters: Food in the Wizarding World - Part TwoPotterversity Episode 40: Unpacking PetuniaEmily’s website Potterversity: Essays Exploring the World of Harry Potter (Pre-order now in stock!)Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 46, Chris and Emma celebrate the second birthday of the Positive Disintegration podcast and reflect on their work together. Our first episode launched on October 25, 2021, and in this Quick Bite, we expressed our gratitude for the podcast's positive impact on our lives and the friendship that has developed between us. We shared our initial expectations and how pleasantly surprised we were by the podcast's success and our compatibility as co-hosts. We discussed some feedback we’ve received from guests and listeners, and marveled at the impact it has made……which is, of course, what we originally set out to do, but we had no idea whether or not it would work! We talked about some of the fears and anxieties we had in starting the podcast—fear of not being “perfect,” wondering about whether or not people would embrace the podcast format, and also the nervousness we both had about collaborating when we hardly knew each other.This discussion really is a celebration of all we have achieved, discovered about ourselves (and each other), overcome, and learned. Importantly, it is also an acknowledgment of the contribution that our wonderful guests and listeners have made to both the podcast and our lives.Thank you to everyone who has supported us, and joined us on this journey! Mentioned in this episodeThe echidna: Emma’s Adults with Overexcitabilities YouTube Channel and Tragic Gift blog. Democracy Sausages for Australian Voters Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 45, Chris and Emma discussed the upcoming 16th International Dabrowski Congress, which will be held virtually on July 11-13, 2024. In the episode, we discussed the proposed format, the theme, keynote speakers, and we put out a call for your action. We're calling for proposals for speakers, for workshops, and also for people to host “watch parties” in their local region.The 2024 Dabrowski Congress theme is “Living the Theory,” and there will be keynotes from Lotte van Lith, Dr. Eric Windhorst, and Emma Nicholson. We’ll have programming for live participants in their time zones (Europe, North America, and Australia). We’ll be having watch parties in these regions where people can gather in person to watch and enjoy sessions together. Don’t forget to register your interest and let us know how and where you would like to attend!Links from this episodeOfficial 2024 Dabrowski Congress pageView videos from the 2022 Dąbrowski CongressRegister your interest in the 2024 CongressLearn more about our keynoters, Lotte van Lith, Eric Windhorst, and Emma Nicholson. Lotte was the guest on episode 9, and Eric on episode 10. Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 44, Chris and Emma talked with Dr. Matt Zakreski, a clinical psychologist specializing in neurodivergence and giftedness. Matt discussed his personal connections with his work as a psychologist in the gifted field and his experiences being gifted and ADHD. We discussed topics such as neurodivergence, personal growth, and giftedness, and Dr. Matt shared personal stories and insights. Matt talked about embracing complexity and multiple perspectives and told us that he supports autonomy in the path to self-discovery. This means letting people come to their own place of understanding. We don’t have to live in a world of black and white. We can live in a world of unique and infinite complexities. We talked about helping people develop self-efficacy and self-determination. Matt said we’re shaped not only by what happens to us but how we respond to it, and he shared that he sees personality as an ongoing process of development. We discussed misdiagnosis and moving away from the medical model. Speaking of kids in school, Matt said that he believes in the productive struggle rather than a pointless and painful struggle. There’s got to be a direction. Dr. Matt shared the origins of what made him such a strong ally for the LGBTQ+ community. He said we’ve got to make more spaces open for people to come as they are, and when that happens, everybody wins. There are no downsides to letting people be their most authentic selves and get the support and accommodations that are required and necessary to facilitate their growth. We agree wholeheartedly. Listeners are encouraged to approach the complexities of the world with an open mind.Matthew Zakreski, PsyD is a clinical psychologist who specializes in working with neurodivergent (gifted, 2e, ADHD, Autism, etc.) people and has presented over 200 times all over the country and internationally. He is the co-founder and lead clinician at The Neurodiversity Collective.Links from this episodeThe Neurodiversity Collective (Dr. Matt’s website)You can find Dr. Matt on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.Failure is Fun…damental (YouTube)Falling in Love is Hard on OEs (YouTube)When Emotional Intensity and Cognitive Rigidity Collide (PDF)From The G Word’s GTN Awareness Week: Sex Education For Gifted Kids + LGBTQ Panel with Matt, Chris, Church, and Ilan, hosted by Marc Smolowitz. Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 43, Chris and Emma delved into the topic of trauma and disintegration, spurred by a question from our Facebook community. We discussed that while trauma can act as a catalyst for disintegration, it is not a prerequisite. Disintegration can also be triggered by other life events, such as a spiritual awakening or the recognition of social injustices that demand action.We emphasize that personal growth is more closely linked to the experience of dynamisms rather than trauma alone. Living through trauma doesn't guarantee growth; it's the internal dynamisms that play a pivotal role in one's development.Our conversation also covered the third factor dynamism, a key element guiding an individual's development toward higher or more ethical choices. We explored how self-reflection and value alignment contribute to this complex decision-making process. We encouraged listeners to not only ponder their core values but to also assess whether their actions genuinely align with those beliefs—are you walking your talk?We acknowledged that stepping out of one's comfort zone is often easier said than done. Real transformation involves a multi-faceted approach: deep self-reflection, choices that align with your values, and a concerted effort to break free from unproductive habits and behaviors.Looking ahead, we're excited to announce “Ask Me Anything” episodes. We invite our listeners to submit their questions with the subject or hashtag #AskMeAnything. You can connect with us through Facebook, Instagram, or via email at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com. We look forward to your engagement as we continue to explore the many dimensions of positive disintegration. Links from this episodeWe discussed Dr. Michael M. Piechowski and the thread that runs through his writing about “the work of inner transformation.” We’re planning an Interesting Quotes post on that topic. Emma’s video on Planning Authentic Action With a Process Flow covers the topic of thinking about how you will walk your talk.The Neurodiversity Podcast was mentioned.Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 42, Chris and Emma continued the conversation with Catherine Zakoian, MA, NCC, LPC, a counselor and consultant from Boulder, Colorado, and author of Raising Gifted Children: A Practical Guide for Parents Facing Big Emotions and Big Potential. We started the discussion by asking Catherine to talk about how the dynamisms show up in her clinical practice with gifted children. She shared insights from asking kids to use symbols to identify the different parts of themselves and helping them work through and resolve inner conflicts. Catherine also discussed the tension children can experience about the world around them, reconciling their desire to do good in the world while also feeling repulsed by the state of it. Self-reflection and goal-setting can be beneficial for children. It provides them with an opportunity to think about their ideal self and who they want to be. By guiding children through the reflective process, they can develop an emerging personality ideal and gain the practice of self-reflection. We discussed the delicate work of acknowledging a person's past experiences while helping them navigate their identity. We emphasized the importance of not dismissing or invalidating someone's past but rather acknowledging and validating those experiences. Catherine brought up the fact that Chris has been learning Polish, and Chris shared a little about how and why that happened. Names that came up in this episode included Immanuel Kant, Joseph Chilton Pearce, and Peace Pilgrim. Note that we recorded this episode before Frank Falk passed away in April, which is why we talked about him as we did toward the end of the episode. The Fourth Factor was mentioned, a term that comes from Elizabeth Mika, but we didn’t go into it in depth. Listen to Episode 17 with Elizabeth for more. Links from this episodeRaising Gifted Children: A Practical Guide for Parents Facing Big Emotions and Big Potential by Catherine ZakoianLumineux Institute (Catherine’s website)Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

[Voiceover of written post] In part three, Chris reflects on their journey of self-discovery through the lens of Dąbrowski’s theory and autoethnography. They recount how discovering autoethnography provided them with a framework to understand their life experiences, including traumas and their father’s alcoholism. This revelation came during their doctoral studies in psychology, where they also learned about being twice-exceptional (gifted and disabled), challenging their previous beliefs.Chris discusses their struggles with mental health and addiction, initially seeking understanding through psychiatry and later questioning these diagnoses through the lens of autoethnography and Dąbrowski’s theory. They detail their process of self-examination, which included revisiting personal journals, medical records, and conducting interviews with people from their past. This introspection led to a reevaluation of their mental health diagnoses and a decision to stop taking psychiatric medications.Their exploration of Dąbrowski’s theory, particularly through interactions with Michael Piechowski and Linda Silverman, helped them reframe their understanding of their mental health and intellectual giftedness. This new perspective enabled them to see their intense experiences not as symptoms of illness but as strengths. Chris emphasizes the transformative power of self-understanding and acceptance, culminating in a newfound sense of liberation and purpose to share their insights with others. They conclude by encouraging others on similar paths to be patient and kind to themselves in their journey of self-discovery and healing. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 41, Chris and Emma talked with Catherine Zakoian, MA, NCC, LPC, a counselor and educational consultant from Boulder, Colorado. Catherine is also the author of Raising Gifted Children: A Practical Guide for Parents Facing Big Emotions and Big Potential.We discussed emotional tension and the issue of confronting our individual shadows, as well as the shadow in groups, such as families and communities. Catherine shared valuable insights on navigating this type of inner work, which can be helpful for individuals and clinicians on their personal growth journeys.Catherine shared her experiences of applying Dabrowski’s theory in her clinical practice, offering practical guidance for therapists and clients alike. Whether you're just starting to study the theory or working on yourself, you'll find plenty of worthwhile nuggets in this conversation.We talk about Catherine's expertise, which extends to educational consulting, where she provides guidance to schools and organizations serving gifted and twice-exceptional (2e) populations. She also shared some of her insights from working with gifted children and their families, offering practical advice for parents and educators.Catherine and Chris know each other thanks to participating in the Dabrowski Study Group that was recently mentioned in one of our posts on Substack.Links from this episodeRaising Gifted Children: A Practical Guide for Parents Facing Big Emotions and Big Potential by Catherine ZakoianWe discussed past Dąbrowski Congresses. Consider joining us at the 2024 Dąbrowski Congress!Learn more about the Dabrowski Study Group in Chris’s post, The Positive Disintegration Study Group.Episode 28 with Kate Arms was mentioned.Catherine mentioned Michael M. Piechowski’s 1975 monograph (PDF download).Chris mentioned the Parents of Gifted and Twice-Exceptional Kids Facebook group.Connect with us!Positive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe