Macro N Cheese

Economic anthropologist Brett Scott, the author of Cloud Money, talks with Steve about libertarianism’s big lie. Or lies – plural.From a class perspective, libertarianism is largely an ideological tool that protects elite power by promoting a false narrative of individualism and "free" markets. It serves as a smokescreen, concealing the mechanisms of power in a class society. What worse, it’s presented as neutral. As if all citizens are on an equal playing field. Market transactions replace the natural interdependence at the core of societies. Brett and Steve look at leftwing alternatives, including the potential of mutual credit systems and alternative economies as counter-narratives to mainstream economic structures.  They also discuss libertarians' obsession with commodity money (like gold), which stems directly from their flawed view of society. They see money as a neutral tool for trade between independent agents. In reality, modern money is a credit system—a network of social promises and debts that reflects power dynamics. Brett Scott is an author, journalist, and activist, who explores the intersections between money systems, finance, and digital technology. He’s the author of The Heretics Guide to Global Finance: Hacking the Future of Money. His latest book is Cloudmoney: Cash, Cards, Crypto, and the War for Our Wallets. Find more of his work at https://alteredstatesof.money/ or on Substack.@Suitpossum on X

** You are invited to attend Macro ‘n Chill, our community building online gathering where we discuss the current episode of the podcast. Tuesday, September 23 at 8pm ET/5pm PT Click here to register. Our friend, MMT economist Yeva Nersisyan, joins Steve to discuss the struggle to communicate MMT's core principles in a media landscape filled with misinformation, including from those who should know better. They call some of them out by name and express disappointment when natural allies on the left reject modern monetary theory.  “At this point, you cannot just be MMT curious. You have to make up your mind, do you want the ‘scarce money’ framework? Is that the way you're going to view the world? Or do you view it through the MMT framework? Because there is no other option.” Yeva and Steve agree that MMT is not a political ideology but a crucial lens for understanding that a monetarily sovereign government is the creator of currency, which means scarcity is serving another purpose – eg, supporting this economic system. They talk about government spending during Covid as a missed opportunity to educate. They criticize so-called progressive politicians (hello Bernie!) who, despite likely understanding MMT, refuse to publicly champion its principles. This leads to self-sabotage (perhaps intentionally?) when they claim to argue for progressive policies within a conservative tax-and-spend agenda. Result? Austerity. As we regularly try to stress, a correct understanding of MMT is no solution, but rather a tool in building a revolutionary class analysis. Dr. Yeva Nersisyan is an associate professor of Economics and Department Chair at Franklin and Marshall College and a research scholar at Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Professor Nersisyan has published more than 25 journal articles, book chapters, policy notes and policy briefs on the topics of Modern Monetary Theory, fiscal policy, the Green New Deal, and financial instability. She is the editor of the Elgar Companion to Modern Monetary Theory with L. Randall Wray, and her work has appeared in publications such as The Guardian and The Hill. Find her work at levyinstitute.org/publications/yeva-nersisyan        

Our friend Daniel Conceição is back for his sixth(!) time on Macro N Cheese. He and Steve share their critique of "neutral" or academic MMT that avoids class analysis. Understanding a government's monetary capacity is meaningless without using that knowledge as a weapon for class struggle against an oppressive economic system. Daniel shares his experiences in Buenos Aires, describing a city with grand public infrastructure (a legacy of Peronism) now filled with poverty due to austerity. He dismantles the myth that President Javier Milei's austerity policies tamed inflation. Instead, he argues the temporary stabilization was due to a massive, supranational bailout from the IMF, not free-market principles. And when we’re talking about the IMF, we’re seeing a tool of economic imperialism. By creating dollar dependency in developing nations, it forces them into debt servitude and structural adjustments that fully serve global capital, never local populations. This brings us back to mainstream economists who lie outright in order to protect the class interests of banks and the oligarchy. They point to how economic rationalizations shift (e.g., after the 2008 crisis and during the pandemic) to always justify saving capital while opposing spending on the public purpose. Daniel Conceição is an associate professor at the Institute of Urban and Regional Planning and Research (IPPUR) at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro (UFRJ), and one of the authors of the book “Modern Monetary Theory: The Key to an Economy at the Service of People”. He is also former president of the Institute of Functional Finance for Development Brasil (https://iffdbrasil.org/) @stopthelunacy 

** Tuesday evening, Bob will join our weekly online gathering where we’ll listen to the podcast together and discuss. Bring your questions for him. September 9 at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/1HA3nd_5QFSFzBe_cGiHpw This is Bob Hockett’s 12th visit to Macro N Cheese. Back in 2022, in an episode discussing the collapse of the major crypto exchange platform FTX, Bob gave us a useful rule of thumb: “The irony is that in every one of these cases there is a clue in the name of the product in question that ought to warn you. If it’s called a junk bond, there’s a reason for that word “junk” being used. And if it’s called a subprime mortgage loan... there’s a reason for that “subprime” term. Similarly with cryptocurrency or crypto assets, one of the most ironical names ever conceived for this kind of product. If the word “crypto” comes into it, then that’s a pretty good tip-off that there’s something non-transparent about it, that there’s something opaque and occluded and difficult to understand.” Hmmm... today’s topic is the GENIUS Act. What meaning should we take from that name? In this episode, Bob and Steve talk about the newly-passed GENIUS Act whose stated purpose is regulation of the stablecoin industry, bringing the shadow banking industry into the light and out of the, um, shadows.   The discussion looks at the flawed premise of private stablecoins and the real motives behind the push. Far from preventing instability and fraud, promotion of stablecoin aligns with a libertarian ideology (a la Hayek) that seeks to denationalize currency and privatize money. From a Modern Monetary Theory perspective, the implications are alarming. It merits a discussion of the role of the state.  The GENIUS Act is a dangerous distraction. A Trojan Horse.   Robert C. Hockett is the Edward Cornell Professor of Law at Cornell Law School. His principal teaching, research, and writing interests lie in the fields of organizational, financial, and monetary law and economics  His forthcoming and recent books are: World Money (Yale 2026); A Republic of Producers (Yale 2025); Making Capital Democratic (Polity 2025); Spread the Fed (Palgrave 2025); The Citizens' Ledger (Palgrave 2022); Democratizing Finance (Verso 2022); Money from Nothing (Melville House 2020); Financing the Green New Deal (Palgrave 2020).  @rch371 on X       

In our 14th episode with Australian economist Bill Mitchell, the conversation focuses on the MMT perspective on international trade. Bill explains what is meant by the statement “imports are a benefit, and exports are a cost,” where it fits into the history of economic thought, and some of its implications. A significant portion of the conversation is dedicated to explaining the crucial shift from the Bretton Woods fixed exchange rate system to the modern system of floating exchange rates after 1971. Bill clarifies that in a floating regime, a currency-issuing government is not financially constrained in its domestic policy by “trade imbalances,” as it was under Bretton Woods.  The episode also touches on bond vigilantes, the IMF, and the shifting status of the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency. William Mitchell is Professor of Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE) at the University of Newcastle, NSW Australia. He is also the Docent Professor of Global Political Economy at the University of Helsinki, Finland, and Guest International Professor at Kyoto University, Japan.  Follow Bill’s work, including his upcoming books, at https://billmitchell.org/blog/  

**Be sure to subscribe to our Substack. It costs you nothing to have all our new content delivered to straight to your inbox!  https://realprogressives.substack.com/ Remember Labour's stunning defeat in the 2019 UK general election? When, under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, they won the lowest number of seats since 1935?   Steve’s guest, Chris Williamson, brings an insider’s view to the story. Chris is a former MP and shadow minister for UK’s Labour Party. He’s currently deputy leader of the Workers Party of Britain, and hosts a show, Palestine Declassified, that has the notable honor of being banned by YouTube. Chris describes some strategic missteps within the Labour Party under Corbyn and others. He criticizes the adoption of neoliberal policies, like the fiscal credibility rule, and Corbyn’s ambiguity on Brexit. The Zionist lobby leapt on their support for Palestine; charges of antisemitism hit their target. “Unfortunately, Jeremy gave it legs by continually apologizing. And as I said to him at the time, ‘Every apology you make and every concession you give is just feeding the beast and making it stronger. Ultimately they're going to come for you and destroy this project.’ And they did. I mean, that's what really killed the Corbyn project. It was the antisemitism thing. I mean, what finished it off. What delivered the coup-de-grace, of course, was the commitment to a second referendum on Brexit.” Chris also recounts his own experience as a victim of coordinated attacks which led to his being ousted from the Labour Party. Throughout the conversation, Steve and Chris continuously pound the MMT message, reminding us that the UK, like the US, is not constrained by lack of money!Chris Williamson is a former member of Parliament and shadow minister for the Labour Party, currently deputy leader of the Workers Party of Britain.@DerbyChrisW on X Follow Palestine Declassified https://www.presstv.ir/Section/150108    

Our friend, physicist and economist Erald Kolasi, stops by the Macro N Cheese clubhouse to talk with Steve about the profound effects of AI on the energy grid, water resources, and societal infrastructure. The discussion focuses primarily on large-scale corporate AI, such as generative AI. Erald’s work bridges physics, economics, and ecology, revealing how AI’s rapid expansion is not just a technological phenomenon but a biophysical crisis – one that’s easy to overlook. Cloud is such a gentle word. Diaphanous. It sounds harmless. Lovely, even.“When you're in front of your computer and you're just typing away and you're asking these systems to do all these magical things for you, it can seem like it comes out of nowhere. But no, in reality, all of this stuff takes enormous energy.” AI’s dematerialized facade obscures its physical infrastructure. It’s a classic capitalist contradiction where "progress" accelerates ecological breakdown. Erald and Steve talk about the race to the bottom, as states and municipalities trade public health for tax revenue. Regulatory enforcement is absent.  While exploiting labor and plundering nature, the costs are socialized as these companies use public water and energy grids. Elon Musk’s xAI Colossus is based in Tennessee. (Remember the TVA, that impressive example of depression-era federal works? Help yourself, Elon.) It’s not just that they use public water and energy, it’s the vast and growing amounts of these resources, as Erald explains. The conversation also touches on the AI arms race, as the US competes with China, using “national security” as an excuse to justify resource wars.  From energy consumption to water depletion, from labor displacement to geopolitical tensions, this episode exposes the contradictions of AI under a system that prioritizes profit over sustainability. Erald Kolasi is a writer and researcher focusing on the nexus between energy, technology, economics, complex systems, and ecological dynamics. His book, The Physics of Capitalism, came out from Monthly Review Press in February 2025. He received his PhD in Physics from George Mason University in 2016. You can find out more about Erald and his work at his website, www.eraldkolasi.com.  Subscribe to his Substack: https://substack.com/@technodynamics 

**Our weekly online gathering, Macro ‘n Chill is the perfect place to discuss this week’s episode, especially since it includes terminology you might not be familiar with. Or there may be someone who needs your help understanding it. Community-buidling on Tuesday, August 12 at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register What do you know about blockchain?  Surely you’ve heard our episodes with Brett Scott or the Blockchain Socialist or Rohan Grey. Now we have another one. Steve’s guest is Victor Vernissage, co-founder of the project Humanode, which aims to use blockchain to create a biometric based system. Victor, who agrees with Steve that the US is not a democracy, notes that even "decentralized" crypto systems replicate oligarchic structures, where power is tied to capital. They delve into the intricacies of Humanode's capacity and discuss how this can be a tool for building parallel systems outside traditional governmental structures. They also touch on the potential for decentralized governance and the challenges of implementation at both local and global levels.  Victor talks about concepts like liquid democracy with specialized chambers to avoid tyranny of the majority. He explains Sybil attacks and sockpuppeting. The conversation offers insights into how technology can be leveraged for social and political transformation, emphasizing the role of community involvement and the importance of building new economic and social structures from the ground up. ***** Victor Vernissage is a researcher and cofounder of multiple ventures, with his latest baby being Humanode, an egalitarian decentralised ledger built on the principle of one human = one vote in contrast to capital-based blockchains predominant today. Victor loves macro, complex systems and the intersection of crypto, identity and economics, meanwhile building new social structures as code. Learn more about the project at humanode.io @tech_mingler on X     

Charles Derber, a sociology professor at Boston College, talks with Steve about his book, 'Bonfire: American Sociocide, Broken Relations and the Quest for Democracy.' Steve suggests the book aligns with his own assessment that US sociocide (social disintegration) demands revolutionary change. Electoral politics are a distraction and a dead end.The conversation covers the need for a deeper understanding of a system that manufactures and perpetuates inequality. They discuss the historical continuity of fascism as the logical endpoint of capitalism. Indeed, Trump’s presidency has exposed the latent fascist character of the US state, stripping away liberal democratic pretenses. Austerity measures and increased ICE (and police) funding serve to suppress resistance and criminalize poverty.Steve emphasizes the need for organizing alternative institutions, building dual power. Charles hopes his book will help connect personal experiences with broader systemic issues, advocating for a collective response to the socio-economic crisis and reinforcing the necessity of long-term, sustainable organizing outside traditional party politics.Charles Derber, Professor of Sociology at Boston College, is the author of twenty-eight books, including the Wilding of America, The. Pursuit of Attention, Sociopathic Society, Corporation Nation, People Before Profit, Dying for Capitalism, Greed to Green, Welcome to the Revolution, and Who Owns Democracy - translated into 14 languages. He is a public sociologist and life-long activist, who writes about structural and cultural analysis of capitalism, public goods, the environment, and social movements seeking transformational change. He is a life-long activist for peace and social justice.

If we had the power to design our own political system, what would it look like? Stanford Professor James Fishkin talks with Steve about deliberative democracy, a method that brings together diverse, representative groups to weigh policy trade-offs in a fact-based, civil environment. He maintains that when people get the chance to discuss issues in depth, they often move away from extremes, suggesting that polarization isn’t as unbreakable as pundits claim. James presents some examples, like how deliberative polling in Texas led to a massive shift toward wind energy. Steve acknowledges his skepticism and asks whether James believes this could translate into real power, like shaping a federal job guarantee or breaking the corporate stranglehold on policy. James argues that while deliberative democracy isn’t a magic fix, it’s a tool to cut through misinformation and empower ordinary people, offering a glimpse of what democracy could be. (When we wrest control from the hands of the ruling class.) James S. Fishkin holds the Janet M. Peck Chair in International Communication at Stanford University where he is Professor of Communication, Professor of Political Science (by courtesy) and Director of the Deliberative Democracy Lab.He is the author of Democracy When the People Are Thinking (Oxford 2018), When the People Speak (Oxford 2009), Deliberation Day (Yale 2004 with Bruce Ackerman) and Democracy and Deliberation (Yale 1991).He is best known for developing Deliberative Polling® – a practice of public consultation that employs random samples of the citizenry to explore how opinions would change if they were more informed. His work on deliberative democracy has stimulated more than 100 Deliberative Polls in 28 countries around the world. It has been used to help governments and policy makers make important decisions in Texas, China, Mongolia, Japan, Macau, South Korea, Bulgaria, Brazil, Uganda and other countries around the world.

Dr. Charles LeBaron is a retired CDC scientist and the author of Greed to Do Good: The Untold Story of CDC's Disastrous War on Opioids. He talks with Steve about the ill-considered response to the opioid crisis and the tragic and preventable consequences of the CDC’s 2016 guidelines. Restricting prescriptions without providing treatment (whether for pain relief or addiction) drove users to illicit opioids like fentanyl and a surge in overdose deaths.The conversation expands to systemic issues, including the corporate greed of Big Pharma, political exploitation of the crisis, and the punitive rather than rehabilitative approach to addiction. Steve and Charles highlight how austerity policies and privatization exacerbate the epidemic, disproportionately harming working class and marginalized communities. They criticize current political responses, such as RFK Jr.’s proposed cuts to addiction treatment programs in favor of ineffective "healing farms," as emblematic of a broader failure to address root causes. Both emphasize the need for compassionate, science-driven solutions over criminalization, underscoring how public health and social equity are inextricably linked. For more than twenty-eight years, Charles LeBaron worked as a medical epidemiologist at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). While there, he was the author of more than fifty scientific studies published in peer-reviewed journals, including first- or senior- author papers in the New England Journal of Medicine and the Journal of the American Medical Association. 

**You’re invited to join us Tuesday evening for Macro ‘n Chill, an online gathering where we can listen to and talk about this episode. Tuesday July 15, 8pm ET/5 pm PT   Click here to registerThis week we're releasing an interview Steve did as a guest of Jim Byrne, host of MMT101 podcast.  Steve and Jim have much in common, so it’s interesting to hear how their approaches differ. In part, this is related to the conditions of their nationalities. Jim, in Scotland, isn’t faced with the myth of political democracy. They have a devolved government, under the thumb of Westminster, with no control over the economic levers. The demands are straightforward: more money... and independence.  Jim says he prefers to see MMT “purely as a technical – almost a technical description – with a bit of theory thrown in there, because of course T stands for theory.”  Steve describes his 15-year journey with MMT. Originally, he focused on the “wonky stuff,” the mechanics of the monetary system.  He came to understand that people aren’t interested until they can see how it relates to their own lives. Today he maintains that MMT should be connected to real-world issues such as class struggle, poverty, student debt, and geopolitical conflicts like the horrific situation in Gaza.  The episode is a great conversation between two MMT activists. Despite their differences, they find they have much in common. Jim Byrne is currently developing an MMT foundation course aimed at beginners and intermediate learners, as well as people who already know about economics but are curious about Modern Monetary Theory. Follow his work and the MMT101 podcast at mmt101.substack.com @MMT101DotORG  

**Tuesday evenings, we host an online listening party, Macro ‘n Chill, to discuss the current episode. It’s a great way to get to know other members of the community and talk about the ideas expressed in the podcast. Join us this Tuesday, July 8th, at 8 pm ET/5 pm PT Click HERE to register Scott Ferguson and Ben Wilson of the Money on the Left collective discuss their ‘Blue Bonds’ proposal with Steve. They explain how states can issue bonds to mitigate the federal austerity measures being enacted under the Trump administration. The conversation explores how this approach could democratize fiscal policy at the sub-federal level and empower local governments.Their proposal frames state-issued bonds as a democratic tool to counteract federal inefficiencies, foster local investment and engage communities in financial decision-making.They also address the ideological and practical barriers concerning the public's grasp of economic sovereignty, stressing the importance of understanding endogenous money creation and challenging the collective fear of public debt.  Benjamin C. Wilson is an Associate Professor of Economics at the State University of New York at Cortland and a research scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. Scott Ferguson is an Associate Professor of Film & Media Studies in the Department of Humanities & Cultural Studies at the University of South Florida and a research scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He is co-host of Money on the Left podcast featured by Monthly Review. 

Part of our mission is to introduce MMTers to socialism and socialists to MMT. We’ve had a few metaphorical doors slammed in our faces along the way. Former friends from the MMT community now delight in slinging accusations worthy of a HUAC hearing, while some socialists suspect modern monetary theory is just a sideshow of bourgeois economics. So, we didn’t know what to expect when we reached out to Justin and Jeremy, co-hosts of a podcast we’ve long admired. Compared to the vicious rejection we sometimes encounter, their good faith skepticism felt like a warm embrace. They invited Steve and Virginia to come onto Proles Pod and make a case for the radicalizing potential of MMT.  The conversation goes into the role of the state in currency issuance, the coercive nature of taxation, and how MMT can critique and unveil the inherent power dynamics within capitalism. Austerity, that devastating weapon of class warfare, is not a glitch; it’s a feature.  Virginia asks that listeners stop using the expression taxpayer money. “Even if you’re not ready to wrap your mind around MMT, just start calling it public money. You might not believe where it comes from but just stop. It's public money.” Given the classist, racist implications of relying on taxpayers to fund the government, a change in language is a good first step. Steve adds: “Whatever you tax, you immortalize. Whatever you tax, if you believe it's funding, you need forever.” The state is the source of currency; let’s stop elevating billionaires.  They look at the relationship between currency manipulation, inflation, and global economic dominance. They also touch on Gramsci and the impact of cultural hegemony. Ultimately, they agree on the necessity of a class-based analysis as a prerequisite for revolutionary change. Proles Pod is a podcast about history, politics, and culture... without the liberalism  Find their work at prolespod.libsyn.com/ Support them at patreon.com/prolespod Follow them @ProlesPod on X

If civilizations are judged by how they care for their elderly, our report card is already written. Should there be anyone left to judge us – should humanity exist long enough to judge us – we’ve flunked.Steve’s guest is Judy Karofsky, author of 'DisElderly Conduct: The Flawed Business of Assisted Living and Hospice,' who provides a critical examination of the elder care industry. Judy discusses her own struggles with assisted living facilities and hospice care, highlighting the systemic issues driven by the profit motive and lack of federal oversight. Assisted living is meant to be for seniors who don’t yet need a nursing home. The facilities are supposed to provide the dignity of independence with up to three hours of care per week. Unfortunately, that means from zero to three. Often, it’s zero – with no nurse on staff.In many cases the move from independent living isn’t a health decision. It’s business. The assisted living business is about real estate investment, not the needs of our nation’s seniors. "Big investors, big REITs, Real Estate Investment Trusts, and yes, private equity have seen the potential and they're investing and the decision-making moves farther and farther away from the individual facility and farther and farther away from the resident.”Steve makes a case that will be familiar to our followers: that healthcare – and its federal oversight – are policy decisions, connected to ideology. It’s the belief that there is no public money. ”There is only private property and there's only private equity and there's only private capital. And that when you impose regulations, you're imposing undue constraints on capital to do what capital would like to do. We have to start thinking about the world differently.”The episode illustrates the urgent need for reform in elder care. These challenges will one day touch everyone’s lives or those of their loved ones.Judy Karofsky was a city council member and one of Wisconsin’s first women mayors (Middleton). During her term of office, she established a now-thriving senior center and emergency medical services. She served on the executive staff of a governor and held multiple roles in housing and economic development for a state agency, a nonprofit housing development organization, and her own research firm. Before organizing and providing care for her mother, Judy filled interim positions for a statewide women's network – focusing on elder economic security – and for a coalition of state aging groups. Serving on nonprofit and municipal boards, she participates in policy discussions and comments publicly on demographic trends and urban growth.

**On Tuesday evening, C. Derick Varn will join us AGAIN for Macro ‘n Chill, our weekly community gathering. While listening to this episode, we will have the opportunity to ask questions and engage in discussion about Part Two. June 17th, 8 pm ET/5 pm PT Click HERE to register The second half of Steve’s conversation with Derick Varn goes into the history of the socialist movement from the 1960s to the present.  Derick traces some of the current factionalism back to the ideological battles between Trotsky and Stalin covered in Part One of this series. This includes the debates on ‘socialism in one country’ versus international socialism. He covers further divisions within Trotskyism, the Red Scare’s successful suppression of the CPUSA, and the formation of the Black Panthers. He describes the rise of Maoism, its influence on student movements in the West, and further ideological splits. Steve and Derick emphasize that historical developments are always connected to the material conditions of their time. Even the Bernie Sanders movement. They talk of the struggles intrinsic to past and present socialist organizations and reflect on the modern implications of these ideologies and the challenges of organizing under current capitalist conditions. “In the ‘Eighteenth Brumaire,’ Marx talks about how all great revolutions play-act a revolutionary moment of the past. So, for him... he talked about the English Civil War and the Bible, and the French Revolution, and the Roman Empire.  “We are stuck LARPing the past because we don't know what the future is.” C. Derick Varn is a poet, teacher, and political theorist. He is the host of Varn Vlog. He was a reader at Zer0 books from 2015 to 2021. He spent most of the 2010s outside the U.S. in the Republic of Korea, Mexico, and Egypt. He is the author of the poetry collections, Apocalyptics and Liberation and All the Bright Etcetera.  https://varnblog.substack.com Find all his links at https://allmylinks.com/dionysuseatsyou 

**This Tuesday evening, C. Derick Varn will join us for Macro ‘n Chill, our weekly community gathering. While listening to this episode, folks will have the opportunity to ask questions and engage in discussion. June 10th, 8 pm ET/5 pm PT Click HERE to register This episode is the first of a two-part discussion delving into historical splits within socialism. C. Derick Varn, the host of Varn Vlog, has an extensive background in philosophy, anthropology, and history. He takes us from the First and Second Internationals to the ideological divergences of Trotskyism and Stalinism. He also discusses the factions within Leninism, the impact of World War I on socialist strategies, and the emergence of Trotskyist and Marxist-Leninist thought. The episode navigates through key historical figures, including Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin. Of course it wouldn’t be Macro N Cheese without a look at Modern Monetary Theory and its place in a discussion of socialist theory. C. Derick Varn is a poet, teacher, and political theorist. He is the host of Varn Vlog. He was a reader at Zer0 books from 2015 to 2021. He spent most of the 2010s outside the U.S. in the Republic of Korea, Mexico, and Egypt. He is the author of the poetry collections, Apocalyptics and Liberation and All the Bright Etcetera. https://varnblog.substack.comFind all his links at https://allmylinks.com/dionysuseatsyou    .

There's an oft-repeated Chris Hedges quote that goes: “I do not fight fascists because I will win. I fight fascists because they are fascists.” Well, that’s how we feel about the banks. Revolutionary change is only possible when people understand the institutions of power. The banking system plays a huge role in perpetuating class division and disciplining labor. Christopher Shaw is the author of Money, Power, and the People. He talks to Steve about America’s long struggle to democratize banking, drawing connections between past and present economic conditions and inequalities. The discussion spans the creation of the Federal Reserve, populist movements, and key moments of financial reform from the Gilded Age to the New Deal. Delving into the history of banking and economic injustice, he emphasizes grassroots movements led by farmers, workers, and unions against banking oligarchies. Key periods include the post-Civil War Gilded Age, the Panic of 1907, and the Great Depression. The conversation transitions to recent times, highlighting the deregulation era, the rise of neoliberalism, and movements like Occupy Wall Street. As always Steve challenges the audience to learn from history, stressing that real change requires collective action. Christopher W. Shaw is a historian, author, and policy analyst. He has written extensively on the postal system, and the history of banking, money, labor, agriculture, and social movements. Most recently, he has authored First Class: The U.S. Postal Service, Democracy, and the Corporate Threat (City Lights Books, 2021) as well as Money, Power, and the People: The American Struggle to Make Banking Democratic (University of Chicago Press, 2019).  @chris_w_shaw on Twitter

The podcast focuses on the critical need to address the root causes of health and environmental crises, emphasizing that many diseases, including cancer, are largely influenced by environmental factors and capitalism's exploitative nature. Hamza Hamouchene talks about his reasons for leaving a career in cancer research, highlighting the disillusionment he faced when he realized that the focus was on profit rather than genuine health solutions. Hamza and Steve make a case against a capitalist system that not only externalizes costs related to health and the environment but also perpetuates inequities, particularly affecting marginalized communities. They delve into interconnected struggles from climate justice to the fight against imperialism, and stress the importance of collective action and the need for a revolutionary vision that prioritizes social and economic justice. Ultimately, the episode serves as a call to action for listeners to engage in grassroots movements and challenge the status quo, advocating for an ecosocialist future where health and environmental care are public goods rather than commodities.Hamza Hamouchene is a London-based Algerian researcher-activist, commentator and a founding member of Algeria Solidarity Campaign (ASC), and Environmental Justice North Africa (EJNA). He previously worked for War on Want, Global Justice Now and Platform London on issues of extractivism, resources, land and food sovereignty as well as climate, environmental, and trade justice. 

This episode features sharp commentary on the current geopolitical landscape, exploring why China continues to thrive despite the chaotic shifting of US policies. Our friend Carl Zha brings his vast knowledge of China and delves into the shifting global dynamics with the US. He and Steve examine the absurdity of the US government's approach to trade, particularly the impact of tariffs and sanctions on its own economy, while China strategically positions itself as a rising power.  Steve likens the US to a schoolyard bully caught off-guard, while Carl offers insights into China's long-term planning and adaptability in the face of external pressures. The discussion touches on various aspects, from economic strategies to cultural perceptions. They engage in a broad critique of the US leadership’s focus on military dominance while it fails to invest in domestic infrastructure.  Carl Zha hosts Silk and Steel, a weekly podcast discussing history, culture, and current events of China and the Silk Road. Support him at patreon.com/silknsteel. His YouTube channel is https://www.youtube.com/@CarlZha.