Contrarian Marketing Podcast

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsIn this episode of the Contrarian Marketing podcast, hosts Kevin and Eli debate whether Google's new search experience powered by generative AI (SGE) will actually launch publicly soon or remain stuck in beta.They discuss the motivation behind SGE, predictions for how it could launch, and whether AI hype in search will fade."I think the whole point of s g is they need to get Wall Street and the media off their backs.""Putting it behind a paid wall is exactly like saying, guess what? We also have an LLM, but you have to go to, like, gemini.google.com to check it out."Main Discussion Points- SGE is already live in small ways, like product recommendations in Google Shopping- Google needs to launch SGE, even in a limited capacity, to show they are innovating in AI- SGE may be useful for certain verticals and listicle-style queries- But LLMs can frustrate users by removing choice from search- Google search has declined in quality and become too commercialized- Voice search assistants still have lots of room for improvement with AI- Both hosts believe Google search needs to improve, but disagree on whether SGE specifically will help This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

In this episode of the Contrarian Marketing Podcast, hosts Eli and Kevin discuss how to bring the beloved Trader Joe's shopping experience online. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsIn this episode of Contrarian Marketing podcast, hosts Kevin and Eli make predictions for 2024, including updates on the economy, artificial intelligence advancements, political developments, and the tech industry.They discuss controversial topics like Donald Trump's potential election, changes in SEO with the release of Google's new search engine SGE, and how new AI technologies may disrupt companies like Meta.Main Discussion Points- New hardware and AI voice assistants like the Revit R1 gaining traction (00:03:43)- TikTok facing government restrictions due to national security concerns (00:17:14) - A potential economic rebound creating excitement and innovation (00:15:53)- The launch of powerful AI assistants by big tech companies (00:18:37)- Traditional media struggling while creators gain more prominence (00:24:12) Key Quotes"Google treats [SGE] almost like a reservist, where it will keep working on SGE and elaborating it, but it will keep it in beta until it's forced by some other player like OpenAI or Microsoft or Perplexity to actually roll it out and change the search landscape." (00:07:08)"I'm pretty sure that Donald Trump's gonna get elected president, so that means everything's gonna change." (00:14:18) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsIn this episode of the Contrarian Marketing podcast, hosts Eli and Kevin have an in-depth discussion about marketing agencies - the good, the bad, and the ugly.They talk about their personal experiences working with agencies, red flags to watch out for when evaluating an agency, and green flags that indicate a great agency partner. They also discuss the pros and cons of building your own agency versus remaining a solo consultant.Main discussion points:* Common issues with agencies - poor deliverables, lack of actionable recommendations, expanding contracts when scope changes, long delays before providing value (00:10:28 - 00:12:13)* Signs of a good agency - not requiring payment upfront before doing work, access to account manager, polished materials (00:20:28 - 00:22:17)* The exit strategy - Building an agency as an asset that can eventually be acquired so the founders can "exit" versus remaining a solo consultant (00:18:43 - 00:20:05)* Wanting to hire the person, not just the agency - Evaluating if the people you meet initially are the ones who will actually be working on your account (00:29:46 - 00:31:44) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsBacklinks have always been a hot topic in the world of SEO. They play a crucial role in improving a website's search engine ranking and overall visibility. But when it comes to backlinks, not all links are created equal. In this blog post, we're going to dive into a LinkedIn poll that raises an interesting question: Which would you prefer - a deep link on The New York Times website or a front page link on Reddit for 24 hours? Let's explore the insights and varying perspectives on the value of these two backlinks.New York Times or Reddit?According to the LinkedIn poll, the majority of respondents favored a deep link on The New York Times website over a front page link on Reddit. The preference for The New York Times link is primarily based on its perceived value from an SEO perspective. The New York Times is a highly authoritative and reputable website, and a backlink from such a site can significantly boost a website's credibility and search engine rankings.The Business Value of a Reddit Front Page LinkHowever, when we consider the broader business objectives, the front page link on Reddit may hold more value. While Reddit may not have the same level of authority as The New York Times, it has a massive user base and can potentially reach hundreds of thousands of people within 24 hours. This kind of exposure can lead to direct engagement, retargeting opportunities, and potential conversions.Perspectives on Backlink ValueThe differing perspectives on the value of these backlinks highlight the distinction between SEO considerations and broader business objectives. From an SEO standpoint, The New York Times link is seen as more valuable due to its influence on search engine rankings. On the other hand, the front page link on Reddit offers the potential for direct business impact through increased visibility and engagement.Real-World ExamplesTo further illustrate the potential impact of backlinks, let's take a look at a couple of real-world examples. Hoppin, a company worth $7.7 billion two years ago, recently sold its assets to Ring Central for a significantly lower price of $15,000,000.01. This sale raises concerns about the company's declining value and whether Ring Central may have overpaid for the assets. It highlights the potential difference between a link that Google sees as valuable and a link that generates direct business impact.Similarly, Overstock recently purchased the brand assets of Bed Bath & Beyond, which had filed for bankruptcy. The purchase included a domain with 43,000 unique backlinks, estimated to have a value of almost $15 million. This acquisition not only provided Overstock with valuable backlinks but also led to a significant increase in their stock price. It shows how backlinks can play a role in enhancing a brand's overall value and market position.The Importance of Backlinks in SEOEli, one of the voices in the LinkedIn poll, believes that backlinks have not mattered in the same way for many years. He suggests that contextual power is more important than domain authority when it comes to backlinks. To have an impact, the article that links to a website should be topically relevant. This aligns with the idea that backlinks that drive traffic and are more likely to be clicked will have higher quality and, therefore, be more valuable.While backlinks may have lost some of their importance over time, they can still make a significant difference for a website's rankings. AI algorithms, like those used by Google, play a role in how websites are ranked based on backlinks. Manipulating backlinks has become more complex due to AI and the intricacies of search engine algorithms. However, building good backlinks remains an essential part of any comprehensive SEO strategy.ConclusionBacklinks continue to be a crucial component of SEO strategies. While their significance may have evolved over time, backlinks still have the potential to positively impact a website's visibility and authority. The relevance and quality of backlinks are considered more important than their sheer quantity. Building a strong backlink profile requires producing backlink-worthy content and establishing a strong brand presence.Although the debate over the value of backlinks from high-profile sites like The New York Times versus highly trafficked platforms like Reddit continues, it ultimately depends on the goals and objectives of each website and its business. SEO considerations and broader business objectives may influence preferences and strategies when it comes to backlinks. By understanding the nuances and varying perspectives, you can make informed decisions on how to leverage backlinks effectively for your website's success. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsIn this episode of the Contrarian Marketing Podcast, hosts Kevin and Eli have an energetic discussion covering a range of marketing and business topics. They provide commentary on recent rebranding efforts by Overstock and Buy.com, analyze the dramatic rise and fall of the virtual events platform Hopin, and share thoughts on best practices for hiring and interviewing. The conversation pivots to the prevalence of advertising in sports, with a debate around embracing advertising opportunities versus preserving commercial-free spaces. Listeners can expect a free-flowing and insightful dialogue on current events and trends in marketing.Main Discussion Points:- Overstock's acquisition of Bed Bath & Beyond and the botched domain migration that redirected Overstock.com to BedBathAndBeyond.com (00:07 - 00:11)- Hopin's meteoric growth during the pandemic to a $7.6 billion valuation, followed by its recent demise and pivot under new ownership (00:17 - 00:22) - Observations on unhealthy hiring and interviewing practices like ghosting candidates (00:22 - 00:30)- The prevalence of advertising in European sports compared to the US, and whether there should be limits (00:30 - 00:34) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsIn this special episode of the Contrarian Marketing Podcast, hosts Kevin and Eli have an in-depth conversation with Alan Weiss, author of over 60 books on consulting and considered an icon in the field.They discuss Alan's background, his approach to consulting, writing, learning, and more. Listeners can expect to gain insights into becoming a successful consultant as well as Alan's perspectives on technology, AI, relationships, and personal development.⚠️ In the episode, we announce the launch of a cohort-based SEO course!Key Discussion Points- On learning to become a consultant: get a coach, focus on marketing yourself, have money set aside, get buy-in from loved ones (00:39:00)- On specializing vs generalizing: "You can generalize and thrive or specialize and die." Specialists become commoditized. (00:41:30)- On what makes a great consultant: Have original intellectual property (IP), be resilient, tolerate ambiguity, have a sense of humor (00:34:25)- On writing books: Writes books in 2 months, 20 pages a day, doesn't do much editing, has sold over 100k copies of books (00:12:23)- On technology and AI: Sees it as an aid but doesn't think it can replace human creativity and relationships (00:18:15)Quotes"A consultant is somebody who is six yards ahead of you on the skis, demonstrating how to bend your knees and traverse the mountain." (00:39:37)"It's not about what you do, it's about what you create." (00:08:02)"You have to have original IP, original intellectual capital, and that doesn't mean it has to be brand new." (00:34:09)About Alan WeissAlan Weiss, Ph.D., is the author of over 60 business books and founder of Summit Consulting Group. He has consulted for Fortune 500 companies for over 30 years and was inducted into the Professional Speaking Hall of Fame. Alan popularized the concept of value-based fees and has written several bestselling books on consulting, including Million Dollar Consulting and The Consulting Bible. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsIn this week's Contrarian Marketing Podcast episode, we discussed several timely topics in the world of marketing and technology. We talked about Twitter's controversial rebranding to "X" under new owner Elon Musk. We debated whether this rebrand would significantly hurt Twitter's user base and engagement. While the platform has already lost some users, we disagreed on whether a core community will remain loyal to Twitter regardless of the name. Next, we explored the launch of Meta's new texting app Threads as a potential rival to Twitter. We had differing views on whether Threads can gain traction and find an engaged user base. While some marketers may join, we questioned whether Threads offers enough unique value to attract the masses away from Twitter.We also addressed concerns about a potential recession and its impact on marketing budgets. We discussed the difference between "growth" budgets being cut and "fear of missing out" budgets still allocated to things like AI. While business is slowing, we considered whether companies have already squeezed budgets as far as they can go.In addition, we discussed Google's new Search Experience called SGE. We felt it still needs improvement but may be better received by non-SEO users. We debated whether Google is overstating SGE's capabilities for now.Finally, we previewed our upcoming interview with renowned consultant Alan Weiss 🎆. We highlighted insights he shared on consulting best practices and "value-based" pricing models. It promises to be a great episode for anyone interested in consulting. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsIn a recent episode of the Contrarian Marketing Podcast, hosts Kevin and Eli discuss various topics, including * Google's new remote work policies* the impact of return-to-office on employees* the future of AI-generated content* the challenges faced by affiliates in the SEO landscapeGoogle's Remote Work Policies and Traffic WoesGoogle's implementation of new remote work policies, specifically the crackdown on hybrid work, has caused quite a stir. Employees are now required to be in the office. As a result, Bay Area traffic has significantly increased, leading to frustration among commuters.Kevin and Eli speculate that companies might be using the return-to-office shift as an opportunity for silent layoffs, as many employees are unable to relocate back to the office after working remotely for an extended period.The Hybrid Model's Impact on Career GrowthOne of the concerns raised by Kevin is the disadvantage faced by remote workers in terms of career growth and relationship building. Eli agrees, emphasizing the importance of building connections and relationships in the office, which cannot be fully replaced by technology like virtual or augmented reality.The hosts mention a previous episode that delves into the detrimental effects of the hybrid model, particularly its impact on the career growth of parents who prefer working from home. They also express skepticism towards the idea of VR/AR completely taking over the office environment.Google's Responsibility and the Impact of AI AnswersGoogle has faced pushback for its Search Generative Experience (SGE) program, which tests AI answers and results. Critics argue that the program may harm the Open Web, as Google's traffic is pivotal for numerous websites and businesses.AI-generated results provided by Google can potentially impact organic traffic and ad revenue for websites. Currently, the quality of AI-generated answers varies, with some being thin or incorrect. Google has been experimenting with ad placement in relation to AI answers, aiming to leverage the increasing availability of AI tools and compete with the abundance of quality content.Eli and Kevin acknowledge the pros and cons of AI-generated content. While it has the potential to generate more low-quality content, it also enables search engines to provide more personalized and relevant information to users. They stress the need for a paradigm shift in the SEO model that goes beyond simply creating content.The Evolution of SEO and Google's RoleGoogle search experiences often fall short of users' expectations, driving them to seek answers on platforms like Reddit. The quality of content on the web is declining.Google's indexing of the web reflects the existence of subpar content rather than being the cause. Google has struggled to move beyond content as a ranking factor. Long tail search results were never satisfactory. The absence of a benchmark competitor may have contributed to Google's stagnation. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsKevin here. Let's dive into a hot topic - the return to office and hybrid work. I strongly believe more employees should have the option to work from home. But not just to avoid traffic - there are more twisted nuances to this issue.Companies are seemingly encouraging employees to move back to offices. And here's my theory - many are secretly using it as a ploy for silent layoffs. Forcing staff who made lifestyle changes during the pandemic to suddenly return can cause resignations.Fact check: Execs from Apple, Meta, and Google resigned because they couldn't move back. Some companies even denied severance, stating office presence is a contractual matter. Is this fair? We're not so sure.Now, let's talk about hybrid work. No, not the kind where all employees have both on-site and remote work days. Rather, companies that have some staff exclusively remote while others are regularly in-office. This can cause a huge divide.In theory, a hybrid system sounds great. But in practice - if you're out of sight, you might just be out of mind...and opportunities. Remote employees may struggle to form relationships or read those contextual, subliminal cues in conversations. #RemoteWorkChallengesUntil we have groundbreaking tech like VR, AR glasses or the metaverse that accurately mimic a person's subconscious signals, it's only fair to have a unified system for all employees. Same rules for everyone. #workforceequalityHere's Eli's take - the whole AR VR tech replacing traditional office experiences seems implausible to him. Those water-cooler chats, hallway meetups - they hold value. You can't replicate these spontaneous interactions in a VR space. #workplaceinteractionI agree with Eli - a full or partial switch to remote invites career growth challenges. The best assignments, the most visibility - they usually go to those present in the office. It's harsh, but true.If given an option for hybrid work, individuals may make choices based on their personal situation rather than career progression. e.g., parents may choose to stay home for their kids, ending up compromising on their career growth. #WorkLifeBalance To sum up, mandating return to office or hybrid work can come with repercussions to employee well-being and career progression. The key is to find a balance and ensure equitable opportunities for all. More to come as we explore this further! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsIn this episode of the Contrarian Marketing Podcast, Kevin and Eli debate whether Reddit will live or die and what other UGC platforms can learn from that.The Power of Reddit and the Open WebReddit is one of the largest online forums in the world, with over 400 million monthly active users. The platform hosts diverse communities centered around various topics and interests.While Reddit's value lies in its user-generated content, recent controversies surrounding pricing changes for its API and its IPO plans have stirred up concerns within the Reddit community. Eli cautions that if Reddit continues to alienate its moderators, who are the backbone of the platform, it could potentially lead to the downfall of the company. He draws parallels to platforms like StumbleUpon and Digg, which faced challenges when they tried to change their algorithms and reduce the power of their users. Reddit must tread carefully to maintain its reputation and user base.The Importance of Community-led GrowthCompanies like Notion, Figma, and Miro rely on their communities to spread the word and drive user adoption. They moderate in-house and collaborate with community champions and ambassadors.Rather than outsourcing moderation, which can lead to a loss of control and user trust, companies should establish clear boundaries and guidelines for their communities.Reddit, being a platform that aggregates people and communities, must find a balance between retaining autonomy for individual communities and ensuring consistent content moderation is crucial for long-term success.The platform heavily relies on volunteer moderators who have significant autonomy in governing their respective communities. While Reddit's leadership desires more control over content moderation to avoid controversies, attempts to exert control have sparked backlash from moderators and users.❓What’s your take? This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsSEO and Marketing friends,We've recently been on the Evergreen Media Podcast, discussing:1️⃣ The role of SGE in shaping the future of SEO.2️⃣ Identification of verticals that AI search might severely affect.3️⃣ Understanding how to prep for an AI-driven world.4️⃣ Leveraging AI for a competitive advantage in SEO.5️⃣ Some of our favorite AI tools that can aid your SEO strategy.🚀 Key takeaways from the podcast:• How to understand and adapt to the way AI might change SEO.• Certain verticals, like publishing, are likely to face significant impact from AI search.• There are tools out there that use AI to give competitive advantages in SEO.The question about AI is not 'If' but 'When'. And we believe the 'When' is Now! Are you prepared?Your thoughts and opinions are appreciated. Please leave a comment! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsIn this "Ask Us Anything" (AUA) session, we answer questions from a Linkedin live about SEO & AI, the state of the economy, careers and more.Topics* Breakfast Routines* Predictions on Economic Recovery* AI and SEO* Preparing for AI and SGE* Eli shares the best career advice he didn't take* The Importance of Working at Big Brands Early in Your Career* Best Practices for Prioritizing and Implementing SEO Initiatives in Companies* Impact of Generative AI on Jobs and Medical Professionals* Building a Nerd Wallet Competitor in 2023* Impressive AI SEO Marketing Tools* Workspace Labs beta and Google's Keyword blog* Eli and Kevin Discuss Marketing Evolution and Tactics in Today's Digital Landscape* Companies Collaborating with Influencers* Discussing AI advancements and future implicationsTranscript[00:00:05] Kevin and Eli Go Live: A Friday Conversation[00:00:05] kevin: We're live.[00:00:06] eli: We're actually live.[00:00:07] kevin: Is this real?[00:00:08] eli: Yes, it is real. We did it. Oh, my God. Eli, what's going on this Friday? How are you?[00:00:14] kevin: Let's enjoy the podcast for the sake of all the people, all the millions of people that are not watching us live.[00:00:20] Contrary Marketing Podcast: Live AMA[00:00:20] eli: All right, sounds good.[00:00:21] kevin: Hello.[00:00:21] eli: Welcome to the Contrary marketing podcast, where we give you ideas you might not be thinking about today. Eli and I are doing a live AMA. Not MMA live. AMA we're beating ourselves up only verbally.[00:00:33] kevin: No, AMU sorry. Aua ask us anything.[00:00:38] eli: Ask us a good point where you can already tell by this highlevel. We ask each other questions, and we want questions from the live crowd that we're going to ask each other as well. Eli, you want to hit it off?[00:00:49] kevin: Yeah, but Kevin, I hate to interrupt the flow here, but I'm not sure that we're live.[00:00:52] eli: I'm pretty sure we have 33 viewers.[00:00:54] kevin: We do. Okay, so they're there on my LinkedIn event. I just see our logo.[00:01:00] eli: It's not a multiverse or what do you call it? Metaverse.[00:01:03] kevin: Can't see myself. Okay, well, we have 33 viewers. Welcome, everyone. Welcome.[00:01:06] Morning Q&A and Discussing Breakfast Routines[00:01:06] eli: Eli, hit me with a question here.[00:01:08] kevin: What do you have for breakfast?[00:01:09] eli: I had egg beaters, cherry cheese, and two slices of bread. Kind of my standard breakfast. I have that almost every morning, and I don't mind it at all. And of course, coffee. Can't forget the coffee shopify, mark. Exclusive for the growth team.[00:01:24] kevin: How about you? So it's a little bit earlier in the morning here on the West Coast, so I had to skip breakfast today. But I did have my coffee, and it's the first thing I do is wake up, think about the coffee, and run to go get it. But let's do a real question here.[00:01:35] eli: Let's do a real question.[00:01:37] kevin: I think we're full of SEO questions. One day we won't have SEO questions. Let's do a non SEO question.[00:01:43] Predictions on Economic Recovery and AI-related Stocks Driving Bull Market[00:01:43] kevin: When do you think the economy will get better?[00:01:45] eli: Man, if I knew that, I would put all my money into the stock market at some point in time. Look, I'm not an economist, but I have very deep insights into a lot of companies right now and some companies who make a lot that make a lot of money. And I don't yet think we have bottomed out. I think we have seen some of the worst B, two B businesses that sell to other companies and that might slowly turn around or at least flatten out, but I think consumer businesses might get hit even harder. And so, again, this is not financial advice, and I cannot see the future. But if I had to make a guess, I think Christmas this year or maybe even summer next year. That's kind of a span where I think the economy will get better. But I can only tell by how good business is going for some of the companies that are working with. And right now, demand is down. Sales cycles are still very long. Revenue is down year over year. So that's my prediction. What do you think?[00:02:44] kevin: I actually think the stock market has probably bottomed out. I don't know if you saw this, but we're in a bull market, which is crazy, because I always tell people, you can't pull your money out of the market because you don't know the bottom until you're months past the bottom. I forget the number, but this financial advisor told me that if you would have invested in the top of the market in 2008, right before the market, like, plummeted. So if you invested in the top of the market in 2008, and then you would have pulled your money out at the bottom of the market in March of 2020, when the market had dropped like 40% or something, you would have still made like 180%. So that's the market, right? So you look at trends and you think everything's terrible, but you have no idea. The only way you can really make money in the market is by keeping your money there. So I didn't realize it, but we're in a bull market. So a bear market is when the market is down 20% overall, and a bull market is when it's up 20%. So somehow within all of this, in 2023, we're actually in a bull market, and the market has turned. So I think the market will probably improve because a lot of the layoffs, a lot of the bad things, things have sort of already been baked in. Whether the bad things continue is a whole different story. So again, the market is psychology of the market is maybe things aren't as bad. So people invest, and there's money being made there. But I do think economically, there's probably a lot more layoffs. There's way too much spending for the amount of bad economic news and the amount of layoffs, unemployed amount of people. I think we're probably still a ways away from there. Maybe things turn around next year when there's an election, because markets are psychology, economics or psychology, and candidates can mess things up, messing around with things and make it look a little bit better. Stimulus might not be a good thing. Creates inflation. It created inflation. But hey, if they stimulate the economy and they start giving that money, people might spend, there might be more jobs. And we go back to those 2021 days, 2022 days, where companies just way overhired. I think around the marketing layoffs in general, there were just too many hires, so companies are just ramping down. I don't think it's necessarily a function of the employees. It's even a function of the companies. They just way overhired, and they need to pull that back. In Google's case, Google had never really fired anybody or laid anybody off. So they each had too many employees over two decades of growing, and they need to pull back. No one knows whether Google will do more layoffs, but they're not talking about it. Facebook continues or Meta continues to talk about doing layouts.[00:05:10] eli: The one thing that you mentioned that's super interesting is that we're in a bull market. And when you look at the stocks that are actually up driving that increase, it's all stocks related to AI. So Nvidia is going absolutely nuts right now. Apple after their announcements, google, Microsoft is really those stocks driving the market, and it's all about AI.[00:05:31] Kevin and Eli Discuss AI and Answer Questions[00:05:31] eli: And that's one topic that we got a lot of questions for, and I.[00:05:34] kevin: Think we have to drink now. Now. You just said AI. Oh.[00:05:37] eli: Every time you say, oh, okay, here we go.[00:05:39] kevin: I forgot.[00:05:39] eli: Here we go. Coffee, a zip of water.[00:05:41] kevin: There you go.[00:05:42] Preparing for AI and SGE: Impact on Search Traffic and the Future of SEO[00:05:42] kevin: All right, we made it five minutes without using the word AI.[00:05:45] eli: It's a new record, I think.[00:05:47] kevin: Yeah, it is a new record here.[00:05:50] eli: The question I have for you is you wrote this series of posts about AI and SGE, google's new search generic experience. Let's cut straight to the chase. Most people tuning in here know what's going on and have heard about AI and Se. What do you tell people or companies who ask you what they can do right now to prepare themselves for SGE when it rolls out to the broader public and for AI in general.[00:06:16] kevin: So I've been preparing for this for many years by focusing on users, by focusing on product led SEO. I was never really algo centric. So this is obviously AI and SGE is an algo adjustment. Well, not an algo, but it's an adjustment in this search layout and it's adjustment of the search page. So my focus has always been on building great things for the search user. So that's just a user that happens to come from a search engine, regardless of whether Google Bing, I don't know, Yandex or whatever. So I think that that is what everyone should continue to do, build for that search user. Now, the makeup of that search user is going to change. And I think the big way that's going to change is that search user is going to move from top of funnel, which is very generic searches, to more mid funnel. And I'll give you an example. I'm in the middle of planning a trip to Europe this summer, and I'm doing a lot of googling most of the queries that I Google, they are bringing up SGE. So obviously that didn't exist a month ago. So if I would have done that Googling, there wouldn't have been any generative responses unless I did it on Chat WT. But so there's now I'm Googling most of the names of hotels. When I Google, there is an SGE response. Now, is the SGE great? I don't think so. When I Google the name of hotel, there's a couple of things that I'm looking for around the hotel. One is where is it located? And two is what are the ratings? So where it's located? Obviously. That's Google. That's a Maps query. And

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.In this episode of the Contrarian Marketing Podcast, we discuss Apple's VR headset, WhatsApp channels, and the future of Meta, formerly known as Facebook.With TikTok taking headlines at the Mobile Apps Unlocked conference and Meta nowhere to be found, what does this mean for the future of tech companies? Can we really count them out? As Kevin says, "I think you can never ever count a tech company out, especially a tech company with tons of cash."They also delve into* The psychology behind contrarian marketing strategies * How Apple's VR headset might change the game for communication and productivity* Whether WhatsApp channels disrupt conventional brand marketing* If AI can change the playing field in searchJoin Kevin and Eli as they dissect these questions and much more!Transcript[00:00:00] Contrarian Marketing Podcast: Apple's VR headset, WhatsApp channels, and TikTok at Mobile Apps Unlocked[00:00:00] Kevin: Stop.[00:00:05] Eli: Hi, welcome to another episode of the Contrarian Marketing podcast where we give you ideas you might not be thinking about today.[00:00:11] Eli: We're talking about Apple's VR headset, WhatsApp channels and other news.[00:00:16] Eli: Eli, you just went to an event that is not the Apple WWDC.[00:00:21] Eli: Tell us about it.[00:00:22] Kevin: So I went to an event in Vegas call the Mobile Apps Unlocked conference and they did an interesting thing where they allowed all marketers who are not at agencies to go for free.[00:00:33] Kevin: So I'm not a big fan of paying 1000 $502,500 to go and attend a conference because if anything we've learned from the Pandemic, you could do a lot of learning without going anywhere.[00:00:44] Kevin: I go for the network, but I don't know necessarily if a network is worthwhile.[00:00:48] Kevin: So I don't really want to invest 1000 $502,500 in that conference because I can't go to that many.[00:00:52] Kevin: Like I would certainly do that for most the most awesome conference, but for a conference I've never heard of before or vaguely knew about, not sure I'd do that.[00:01:00] Kevin: But this conference was free for marketers.[00:01:02] Kevin: Obviously I had to pay my own travels in Las Vegas.[00:01:05] Kevin: It's called mobile apps.[00:01:06] Kevin: Unlocked.[00:01:06] Kevin: I think it was 1000 2000.[00:01:08] Eli: People talks about mobile.[00:01:10] Kevin: Of course, a lot of growth marketers there met fascinating people.[00:01:13] Kevin: But TikTok was a headline sponsor and they had dozens of TikTok employees.[00:01:18] Kevin: And they talked about all the things that TikTok does gaming, creative partnerships, a lot of things that go well beyond influencers.[00:01:26] Kevin: Dancing to the latest pop on TikTok videos, but really like how they integrate and how they monetize and how they can partner with creators.[00:01:34] Kevin: But what I felt was thought was fascinating was TikTok was headline sponsor.[00:01:38] Kevin: Facebook was not there.[00:01:40] Kevin: Meta was not there at all as a sponsor, as a booth, as anything, and they didn't even have any employees there.[00:01:47] Kevin: Now I get there are austere times at Meta, they're doing layoffs, maybe they are not out there as much as they used to be, but to not be there at all seemed fascinating to me.[00:01:57] WhatsApp and the future of Meta[00:01:57] Kevin: So we're going to talk today about WhatsApp which is a Meta company.[00:02:02] Kevin: But I think it's interesting that where Facebook is going and how they're going to retrench and how they're going to pivot.[00:02:08] Kevin: I think you can never ever count a tech company out, especially a tech company with tons of cash.[00:02:13] Kevin: Like how many times has Microsoft been counted out or how many times has even IBM been counted out?[00:02:18] Kevin: And then they came out there with Watson and you're like, oh, IBM is cool again.[00:02:21] Kevin: And people are saying maybe Google is behind the times because of chat JBT, lots of cash.[00:02:27] Kevin: So Facebook, certainly the usage of Facebook has been declining.[00:02:32] Kevin: I just saw this quote.[00:02:33] Kevin: I don't know if you watch Ted.[00:02:34] Eli: Lasso, of course, I just watched the last season of the third sorry, the last episode of the third season.[00:02:40] Eli: Yesterday.[00:02:40] Eli: I'm not going to spoil it.[00:02:41] Kevin: No, don't spoil it because I watched it.[00:02:43] Kevin: But we don't want to spoil it for our listeners.[00:02:44] Kevin: But did you see the part where Keeley got in trouble because she had a it wasn't a sex tape but it was just like a tape leak.[00:02:51] Eli: It was pretty close to sex tape.[00:02:53] Kevin: Yeah, close enough.[00:02:54] Kevin: Whatever.[00:02:54] Kevin: It's not real anyways.[00:02:55] Kevin: It's a show.[00:02:56] Kevin: And they told her that she had to put out her apology on the socials and they said you don't need to put it on Facebook because that's just for old people and rapists or something like that.[00:03:04] Eli: Pretty harsh.[00:03:05] Eli: Pretty harsh.[00:03:06] Kevin: That was pretty harsh.[00:03:07] Eli: I'm always a shoestring away from deleting my Facebook account and yet at the same time I am going to say that Meta's total number of users has gone to all time highs and I.[00:03:17] Kevin: Feel like Instagram and WhatsApp, but not through the Blue Facebook.[00:03:22] Eli: Well, not for us.[00:03:23] Eli: And I think even in the US they actually edit more Blue Facebook users.[00:03:27] Eli: But it's not our generation.[00:03:29] Eli: We're not the target audience of Facebook anymore.[00:03:31] Eli: I think it's I don't know about.[00:03:32] Kevin: You, but I am.[00:03:33] Kevin: I'm old.[00:03:34] Eli: Not that old.[00:03:35] Eli: Come on, it's not that bad.[00:03:36] Eli: We're going to talk a bit more about Meta in just a second.[00:03:39] Eli: There is some exciting news, especially for creators and for brands.[00:03:44] Apple Launches $3,500 VR Headset[00:03:44] Eli: But first we got to talk of course about the news of the day, maybe for me and not for Eli, which of course is that Apple has launched a $3,500 VR headset.[00:03:56] Eli: Now I got my own opinion about this, but I know Eli, you are the biggest Apple fan out there, so I'm going to let you speak first.[00:04:03] Kevin: So I used to be very anti Apple.[00:04:06] Kevin: I never purchased an Apple product, ever.[00:04:09] Kevin: I used a MacBook when I had a full time job because it was easier, of course.[00:04:14] Kevin: But when it came to purchasing products, I was never part of the cult of Mac or the cult of Apple.[00:04:19] Kevin: I've always had Android devices.[00:04:21] Kevin: My wife had an Apple device for some time and I didn't provide tech support for it when things happened.[00:04:26] Kevin: But I said if she was on an Android, I was going to be able to help it because I understood it.[00:04:29] Kevin: But I wasn't going to go learn an Apple system.[00:04:31] Kevin: So I've never purchased any Apple products.[00:04:33] Kevin: But I did recently purchase an iPad and this is my first Apple product and it's sucker man.[00:04:39] Kevin: I think it is a slippery slope to an iPhone, which is a slippery slope to maybe a MacBook, which next thing you know we're going to be doing this on a VR headset.[00:04:47] Kevin: So I typically think that a lot of what Apple does is extremely high end tech.[00:04:53] Kevin: It's not necessarily mainstream.[00:04:55] Kevin: That's my first opinion of the VR headset.[00:04:58] Kevin: I think it surprises me how many Apple watches have been sold because again, it's an expensive high end tool that you don't necessarily need if you're just trying to tell the time or get notifications.[00:05:10] Apple VR headset and its future impact[00:05:10] Kevin: Love to hear your thoughts on Apple VR headset and how you think it'll be used, especially at that price tag.[00:05:15] Kevin: I mean that price tag, it almost needs to be used expensed by companies rather than individuals.[00:05:21] Eli: The first thought is who is going to buy that?[00:05:25] Eli: And I think this is fulfilling a couple of purposes.[00:05:30] Eli: One is for Apple to have something out there.[00:05:35] Eli: I do believe that in the future we'll use VR and AR.[00:05:39] Eli: I don't believe that future is that close yet.[00:05:42] Eli: This is a high end consumer product for the richest of the rich, for maybe a few hotels or experiences that might provide this.[00:05:51] Eli: But this is not a yeah, you know, and maybe people said this about the $1,000 iPhone as well, but I don't see this being something that millions of people will buy just yet.[00:06:01] Eli: Maybe in the future when the price comes down and the price will come down.[00:06:04] Eli: The second thought is what's the use case here?[00:06:08] Eli: And it's really only a few use cases.[00:06:10] Eli: One of them is games.[00:06:12] Eli: And I don't think there is a killer game out there yet that you need these glasses for.[00:06:17] Eli: I might be wrong, I'll stand corrected.[00:06:19] Eli: I haven't tried them out yet, but I don't see this killer game yet.[00:06:22] Eli: The other one is sports events where you might be in the middle of a baseball field and that's going to be very attractive to people.[00:06:28] Eli: And then the third one, and that to me is the one that has the most utility and value is the office.[00:06:35] Eli: I think VR and AR is the best way to foster connections when people work remotely and that's where meta ism, is innovating heavily and I think that's their best trot.[00:06:46] Eli: Right.[00:06:47] Eli: I think VR and AR glasses are going to come through a work setting.[00:06:51] Eli: They're going to be a productivity tool to foster connection and to improve the experience you have when you communicate with people.[00:06:57] Eli: So that's kind of the first thought.[00:06:59] E

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.🚀Get Ready for a Game-Changer in SEO and Marketing: Google's Large Language Model (LLM) Integration🔥Calling all aspiring SEO mavens and digital marketing enthusiasts! We've got a front-row seat to what might become a seismic shift in search and marketing landscapes. Google is integrating its generative AI technology (LLM) into search results. Say goodbye to outdated approaches, and say hello to disruptive innovations! 😲Here's what you need to know:✅ Google's LLM uses predictive statistics to provide an unprecedented search experience.✅ This integration runs EVERY query through a decision matrix with the potential of AI response generation.✅ Expect a massive impact on the SEO channel and top-of-funnel marketing tactics.✅ Early industry examples show Google now offering auto-generated responses for multiple types of search queries, replacing traditional search results.So, what does this mean for digital marketing pros?🔹 Prepare for new strategies to capture user intent through advanced search techniques.🔹 Stay agile and adapt your content strategy to maximize organic visibility amidst this change.🔹 Keep an eye on further developments and industry conversations to stay ahead of the curve.Remember, the best offense is a strong defense - Stay informed and be ready to tackle the challenges of LLM integration head-on. 💪Are you ready to embrace this LLM-driven future of search? Share your thoughts in the comments below! 👇Highlights1. The rise of newsletters and their effectiveness in promoting deeper thinking and engagement2. Google's new AI-driven search engine incorporating large language models (LLMs)3. Potential impact of the AI-driven search engine on SEO, user behavior, and brand visibility4. The future of search and how AI will disrupt the current status quo5. Adapting to changes in search engines and keeping a close eye on third-party reviews6. The interplay between humans and machines in SEO and the critical role of prompt engineering7. SEO predictions for the future, including the impact of Google's MUM update8. Approaching content marketing with a focus on audience rather than on search engines.Show notesAleyda’s newsletter SEOFOMONerdwriter Youtube channelSGE announcement by GoogleStephen Wolfram’s book on AI This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.In this thought-provoking podcast episode, we dive deep into strategies for becoming better marketers and the power big tech companies have on our lives. We cover topics such as:* Are users powerless against big tech algorithms?* How can one protect themselves from unjust bans by tech giants?* In what ways is AI impacting marketing and the tools available?* How can marketers reduce the risk of being banned from major platforms?Back when Eli was responsible for SEO and driving traffic at a previous company, he had to hit the front page of social media, and Digg was an important part of the job. But one day, shockingly, the platform closed his account without warning.Despite not doing anything wrong, Eli couldn't get his original account back, and even worse - the CEO of Digg misattributed an unrelated account to him, worsening the situation. Transparency on these platforms can sometimes be seriously lacking.Eventually, he started a new account, which ended up being more successful. But the lesson was clear: algorithms have power, and they aren't always right. This raises questions about our reliance on Big Tech platforms and their potential repercussions.Fast forward to today, and we see this power dynamic continue to evolve. For example, Substack, Facebook, and other platforms can sometimes inaccurately or unfairly penalize individuals, leading to loss of income and reputation damage.So, what can we take away from these experiences? Recognize that Big Tech wields significant power over our work and lives and that their decisions aren't always accurate or fair. Be proactive in diversifying your online presence and digital strategy!Keep an eye on the power dynamics in your online interactions and identify where it makes sense to mitigate risks.Show notes* https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveillance-toddler-photo.html* Why accounts get disabled by Google* Neuron* Chat GPT for iOS* Learn.xyz* AudioPen* The Verge* PassionfrootTime stamps[00:00:05] Improving as a Marketer: Prioritizing Time for Thinking and Copywriting Skills[00:04:15] The Importance of Copywriting in Social Media and Digital Marketing[00:05:19] The Power of Big Tech and the Impact on Everyday Lives[00:07:31] The Power and Potential Dangers of Big Tech Algorithms[00:14:26] Google Ads Account Bans and Difficulty Reaching Support[00:17:11] Unbanning and Reconciliation in Tech Companies[00:22:15] Derisking a Ban from Big Tech Companies[00:24:35] Eli Schwartz and Kevin Indig discuss AI's history and cool AI apps[00:25:54] AI and Marketing: How Artificial Intelligence is Changing the Game[00:28:57] The Art of Contrarian Marketing with Fred JoyalIf you want to sponsor this podcast and newsletter, please book a slot via Passionfroot. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.In this episode, we discuss our favorite creative marketing channels.Kevin shares how Atlassian used Trello's email list to boost content from an SEO perspective, resulting in a significant increase in visits and shares.Eli shares his experience partnering with the Toilet Association of Singapore to create a humorous survey on bathroom cleanliness, which went viral and garnered media attention.Key takeaways- Think beyond digital: Radio ads, Hulu ads, and outdoor media (such as billboards and TV shoutouts) can offer cheaper and more creative ways to reach your audience.- Utilize community marketing: Building strong online communities around your product can surface product ambassadors who help push the product forward. These ambassadors can feel more genuine and effective compared to traditional influencers.- Don't forget email lists and messaging apps: Email lists, text, and WhatsApp can potentially reach many users, but it's important not to overdo it or cause brand damage. Being careful with communication and frequency is key.Show notes* Eli’s SEO course: https://www.domestika.org/en/courses/3824-seo-growth-strategy-and-content-planningTime stamps[00:00:05] Discussing New Life and Creative Marketing Channels for Customer Acquisition[00:01:54] Eli Schwartz Launches SEO Course for Beginners[00:04:02] Innovative and Creative Marketing Channels[00:05:56] The value of out-of-home advertising[00:07:22] Discussing Growth Strategy for a Fictitious Self-Cleaning Diaper Product[00:07:47] Innovative Marketing Channels: Product Ambassadors and Online Communities[00:10:16] Exploring Innovative Marketing Channels with Eli Schwartz and Kevin Indig[00:15:17] Exploring Untapped Advertising Channels Such as Radio Ads and More[00:18:06] Innovative and Creative Traffic Channels for Growth Marketing[00:20:54] Exploring unconventional digital marketing channels[00:21:58] Quick Marketing Channels for Startups[00:24:19] Leveraging Email Lists and Creative Marketing for SEO[00:27:55] SEO Emergency? Be Proactive, Communicate, and Prioritize[00:28:58] The Contrarian Marketing Podcast: Disrupting and Challenging Common Marketing Practices This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.🤔 Did you ever think that becoming a parent could make you a better marketer?👶 As Kevin Indig and Eli Schwartz discuss in their recent conversation, there are some hidden lessons in parenthood that can actually make you a better digital marketer.Here's what they learned:1️⃣ Patience: A key skill trained by parenthood.- SEO campaigns and content marketing often take time to generate results.- Patience helps you maintain a consistent strategy and not jump to conclusions prematurely.2️⃣ Emotions: Connecting with your audience on a deeper level.- Children express raw, unfiltered emotions, making it a learning opportunity to understand human emotions better.- Marketing is all about connecting with emotions, and observing children can provide valuable insights.3️⃣ Management & Adaptation: Parenthood hones your management skills.- Managing a child's needs and emotions requires flexibility, adaptability, and quick decision-making.- These skills can be translated into managing marketing campaigns and client relationships.👉 While children may not be direct consumers, they can teach us valuable lessons in marketing, especially in understanding emotions and managing different situations effectively.Timestamps00:02:10 Parenting lessons and how they apply to life00:11:15 Changing the narrative00:13:24 Learning marketing principles from observing children00:14:59 North Stars in Marketing and Life This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.In this Contrarian Marketing podcast, we discuss Google I/O 2023 and highlight several key announcements:* The Google Workspace integration with search results, which allows users to quickly copy information to a Google sheet* Google's AI music tool, Music lm, which Eli was not impressed with* AI search results and the inefficiency of SEOFinally, we debate whether AI will replace artists in the future, with Kevin arguing that AI will make it easier to bring ideas to life and allow for more remixing and ideation, while Eli believes we are heading towards a future where people will date computers and stay home.Shownotes* All Google IO announcementsTimestamps00:01:00 - Introduction to the Google I/O event00:06:00 - Discussion of the Material You design language00:09:30 - Google Maps updates00:13:30 - Google Workspace integration with search results00:16:25 - Launch of Google's AI music tool, Music lm, and debate on whether AI will replace artists in the future This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.In this episode of Contrarian Marketing, we discuss the current state of media based on the near-bankruptcy of Vice and the shutdown of BuzzFeed News.We think smaller, niche media companies can provide content that larger media companies cannot fulfill, and non-media companies like retailers can fund media teams to fill the gap.We predict that AI will play a significant role in the future of media, for example, in gathering and distributing news and sports coverage.We also announced plans to create a highly curated Slack group for solopreneurs to share experiences and help each other navigate the challenges of running a business. Apply!Show notes* Kevin’s LinkedIn post* Episode about remote work:Time stamps00:00:45 - Introduction to the state of media industry00:04:20 - Non-media companies funding media teams00:08:40 - Smaller, niche media companies filling the gaps left by larger media companies00:14:00 - The Role of AI in the future of media00:23:00 - Announcement of highly curated Slack group for solopreneurs This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com