The Messy City Podcast

Chuck Marohn, the President and Founder of Strong Towns, joins me to talk about his newest book, “Escaping The Housing Trap: The Strong Towns Response to the Housing Crisis.” Along the way, we also discuss the upcoming Strong Towns National Gathering in Cincinnati, a different way cities can think about building and financing new sports facilities, and our different takes on the place-making of Disney World.If you have an interest in attending the National Gathering in May, I highly recommend it. Register at this link, and use this code for Discounts: KEVINK2024For some background on Walt Disney’s history in Kansas City, check out Thank You Walt Disney.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend”Episode Transcript:Kevin K (00:00.964)Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I'm delighted today to have my friend Chuck Morrone on the show. Mr. Strong Towns, Chuck, it is so good to see you and I'm really excited to talk with you today.Charles Marohn (00:16.848)Hey, I'm really happy to be here. And here's the amazing thing. I listen to your podcast. You have a great voice for this. I mean, I have this horrible voice that people have grown used to. But when you turn on, you're like, hey, this is the messy city podcast. I'm like, yeah, man, you should be doing way more of this.Kevin K (00:37.38)Well, at least you didn't say that I have a great face for radio. So.Charles Marohn (00:40.72)Well, you and I both.Kevin K (00:44.484)Oh man, well, it's fun. You know, I'm still very much an amateur at the podcasting gig. And it's been fun to learn and experiment with it. You've been doing it for quite a while. And so I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you on this show. And we've got a couple of, a couple of fun topics, but in a couple of things that I think will get more serious and interesting as we go. And we'll just get through whatever we can get through. But.Charles Marohn (01:11.568)That sounds great. Well, you've been having all my friends on, you know, so like, yeah, here's Howard. I'm like, wait a sec. That was a blast. And then you had, you had Seth Zeran on recently. I'm like, that's really cool. So yeah, it's been fun. You know, I, I know you and I know, uh, you know, some, some of the ways that you think about things. And I really am. I love chatting with you, um, hearing you have these.Kevin K (01:15.172)I try to do that.Kevin K (01:19.076)Yeah.Yeah.Charles Marohn (01:38.704)fun conversations that we sometimes get to have in person. Hearing you have them with other people is just, it's a delight for me. So yeah.Kevin K (01:46.02)Well, that's very great, very flattering to hear. You know, it's one of the fun things you've probably experienced this too. One of the fun things about having a podcast is you get to choose who you want to talk to. And there's a lot of people that we know and we've all known for a long time that I get to learn so much more about. And for me, that's been one of the most enjoyable aspects of this is just getting to really know people's backstories a lot more. And so that's been a great pleasure.Charles Marohn (02:04.496)Sure.Kevin K (02:16.036)So.Charles Marohn (02:16.4)Yeah, yeah. Well, you you know everything about me, so we don't need to talk about.Kevin K (02:20.1)We know a lot about we know a lot about Chuck. Chuck, fortunately, shares his backstory a lot, although I'm sure there's tons we could get into. I'd rather save the time for some other topics, but you. You do have an awful lot going on right now in this moment, and I want to talk about a couple of those things. One is you have a book, a new book, the strong escaping the housing trap, the strong towns response. This is your.Charles Marohn (02:32.24)Yeah, it's the least interesting part.Kevin K (02:49.636)third book, right? Yeah, okay. Tell me a little bit about why an engineer wanted to write a book about housing.Charles Marohn (02:51.12)Yeah, yeah. Number three. Yep.Charles Marohn (03:01.52)Well, the reality of the story is that I, in the early days of writing the Strong Town's blog, was thinking about a book the entire time. I mean, I started writing this three days a week blog back in 2008, and to me, it was building up to a book. I had a couple publishing companies and agents contact me.And when I gave them my book proposal, it was just blah, blah, blah. It was, it was like 2000 word book. Like it didn't make sense. It was only when I got hooked up with Wiley publishing where we stepped back and we said, okay, this is actually multiple books, put this together in like the compilation of what you think it should be. And I said, well, I, I think I should write the book on finance first. I think I should write the book on transportation. Second, third would be housing. And then there's a couple others that are coming.And so we kind of agreed to a five book series that would kind of encapsulate the strong towns conversation. Housing happened to be the third. And the crazy thing about it is I didn't plan to release it in the middle of a housing crisis where everybody's talking about housing and housing's like on the lips of, you know, every political debate and every public policy conversation. It just so fortuitously happened that we're dropping our ideas in the middle of this kind of housing.you know, policy feeding frenzy right now. But.Kevin K (04:27.556)Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting aspect of that. I know obviously there's a long timeline to write a book anyway, to write it, get it published, edited, and all that sort of stuff. So I'm curious, like, what has changed in your mind from the point when you first started thinking about writing this book to actually getting it out today?Charles Marohn (04:48.624)It's, so Daniel Hergis and I co -wrote this, and I know you had him on a couple weeks ago. It was a really good conversation. The two of us, I think, encapsulate in our thinking the trap that we were trying to illuminate. Because I, we both went through the same graduate school program, and we both maybe took different things away from it. He was really focused on housing and kind of the,the mechanics of zoning and how the government has intervened in the housing market and all the kind of things that I would just put under an urbanist label. And for me, I was really fascinated with the financial side of the whole thing. That was the thing to me that when I was in grad school, I didn't think the housing people made any sense, quite frankly. You have to take some of that. And I was like, this is really dumb. I don't get it. AndI think I didn't get it because as an engineer, I was more plugged into the finance side. I spent a number of years just reading every book on finance that I could. I actually watched for like two years straight, I had CNBC on in my office. Not because I think CNBC is like a good channel or like has revealing things, but because the lingo that they use, the finance lingo that they use, I didn't understand.So when they said like MBS, like what is an MBS? It's a mortgage backed security. When they were talking about interest rate spreads and swaps, like I'm like, what the heck is that? Once I learned that language, to me the fascinating thing about housing was how it really is at its core downstream of the financial conversation that's going on in this country. So Daniel and I really tried to merge those two together, first in a set of insights that the two of us could agree on.and then in a narrative of the book that we could publish and share with the world.Kevin K (06:45.348)So, without giving away too much of the book, obviously we want people to go buy the book. And I think you can pre -order it right now, is that right?Charles Marohn (06:48.656)Yeah, yeah.Charles Marohn (06:55.248)Well, it's not like it's a murder mystery, you know, like I'll tell people the core insights, but you know, there's a lot of depth there beyond that. So.Kevin K (06:57.892)Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. But maybe how about just tease out a couple of the key insights that you think are critical to share related to what the housing trap actually is.Charles Marohn (07:12.912)Well, the housing trap is the situation we've gotten ourselves in where housing as a financial product needs to go up in value. So the price of your house needs to go up for the economy to churn. But housing as shelter, when the price goes up, everything falls apart. Lots of people can't get into a house. If they get into a house, they're very financially strained. Once they're in a house, it's tough to move, take another job.So these two things compete against each other and they're both necessities. I mean, shelter is in Maslow's hierarchy of needs and we've literally structured our entire economy to where mortgage -backed securities, your house bundled with a bunch of other houses, sit as the bank reserves for every bank in the country. Housing prices can't go down. They have to go up financially. Housing prices can't go up. They must actually come down.for us to be able to function as a society. And that is the trap because both of those things are true at the same time.Kevin K (08:17.412)Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think probably the word of the decade has been financialized. And it seems like we've used that to discuss a lot of the foundation of the economic system we have today. And it certainly affects housing in all forms of real estate.Charles Marohn (08:23.76)Mm -hmm.Charles Marohn (08:35.184)Well, Daniel and I reached this understanding quite a while ago, I mean, way before we started working on the book, that if you if you look at the market for housing today, it represents the market of financial products. So when you see developers out building single family homes on the edge of Kansas City, wh

Butch Rigby is a long-time Kansas City developer, small business promoter, and city booster. We decided to sit down and talk about the looming ballot initiative on April 2, and the pros and cons of the current proposal for moving the Royals to the Crossroads neighborhood. You can listen to more of Butch’s story in this podcast.Another podcast of interest is this discussion with Philip Bess, and our work together to save Fenway Park.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend”Episode Transcript:Kevin (00:00.644)Welcome back to the messy city podcast. I've got a returning guest, butch Rigby here, otherwise known as Kansas city's George Bailey, as I've described my, uh, my longtime friend and, uh, and partner in crime on, uh, Kansas city issues, downtown development issues, et cetera. And, uh, Bush, it's great to see you. Oh, Kevin. It's always great to be here. Matter of fact, it.feeling like Savannah, Georgia. It is. I mean, it's already in the 70s and it was the 70s in February or something. That was crazy. So I know everything's blooming. All the stuff I planted last fall is looking good. So I'm happy. I was worried that everything bloomed too early and it was going to get frozen out. But I don't think so. I know. I think we're like straight into lake season pretty soon. So that's all right. Well, butch, I wanted to have you in today to talk about.the baseball stadium issue in particular, because it's a hot topic here locally. There is a proposal on the ballot coming up in April here in Kansas City and Jackson County to extend a sales tax, an existing sales tax that will expire in a few years.to help fund a new baseball stadium for the Royals in a downtown location in the Crossroads area. And then also provide funding for the Chiefs for a series of improvements to Arrowhead. And Butch and I go way back on this issue. We had a lot of fun years ago talking about the potential for downtown baseball when we were both volunteering with the Urban Society of Kansas City.That's correct. That's right. Shout out to all of our urban society buddies. Oh yeah. They knew who they are. And I think it's interesting, maybe where we could start Butch is to kind of put things in context for what we talked about. That was probably now 20 years ago when we were getting involved in that. Just about. Yeah. And so that was when the Glass family owned the Royals. And...Kevin (02:16.186)Downtown was coming along, but it was still a little bit more in its infancy of redeveloping. And there was a push on the part of a lot of people to try to get the Royals to consider coming downtown. And we took on this crazy volunteer task of looking at all the different sites that there were downtown and trying to get people to analyze them and...put their thoughts together. That was, in retrospect, that was kind of a wild thing. And we had a couple hundred people who volunteered with it, as far as I remember, right? We did. And, you know, of course you have to remember 30 years ago when I bought my first building down in what was then Film Row, 19th and Wyandotte, you know, before the days of Crossroads, it was a ghost town. And I'm not kidding. I mean, it was literally...On a Friday night, we would hold these Christmas and July parties to celebrate the history of Film Row. And we were the only thing going on down there. Now, you know, we were begging for tenants. I had a few buildings that I bought and I was having a challenge keeping a coffee shop tenant open. Certainly wasn't, you know, having any luck with restaurants or anything like that. That's just natural when you've had, you know, a big daytime population in office towers in the, inside the loop.Uh, but you really have, uh, I think we had 2 ,500 residences downtown, which isn't enough to support really anything. Yeah. And, uh, you know, at that time, uh, you know, kind of spin forward a dozen years or so, and, uh, things are happening. You know, they're announcing, uh, you know, the, the big push for the, not only the power and light, but to get H &R blocked downtown to do, uh, get the Sprint Center downtown. And, uh, we held the halfway.mark of the development at Screenland at my theater for a while. And, you know, that was a time when we were all thinking, hey, there are several good options for baseball because it meant more and more people making downtown what it used to be. 30 years before I was there, everything was downtown. Shopping was downtown. Movies were downtown. If you wanted to see a first run picture, it was downtown. It was a destination for a reason.Kevin (04:38.482)And that was gone. And so we saw that opportunity. And of course, back then, like you say, there were probably eight good sites because, you know, they were going to be kind of on their own and developed around them as opposed to the new, the new situation. Now, when we have a, an owner who really wants to be downtown and reflects that same passion for a good, strong downtown, um, you know, they're limited to a couple of sites and they have to take into consideration.all of the other ancillary effects of the Royals being down there. And of course the ancillary effects of the reason that I support a downtown stadium. So I think you're one of the people that I really would enjoy talking to about this because you have your interests across many areas. And so obviously you care about the city and about the downtown and the urban core.but you also have an almost unimpeachable track record of caring about everything local, Kansas City, small businesses. And as we look at the proposal that's on the table today, and that's really been, I think, about the primary source of controversy has been that the Royals have chosen a site in the Crossroads area. It's funny, they keep calling, you know, in the paper keeps calling it like the East Crossroads. I think of it.personally like North Crossroads, if you want to call it that. It's literally the edge of downtown, edge of the loop. The loop hopefully will be erased. But no, I mean, look, I'm in business to make money. I always have been. But I don't believe real estate is a commodity. I don't believe you just develop strip centers. I mean, there's a business doing that, but it's not what excites me. What excites me is the challenge of empty buildings becoming full.I mean, when I was down in the crossroads back in 94, my friends just couldn't understand it. They go, it's dead down there. And I thought, well, you know, they got to do something with Union Station. They've got to do something with that big piece of land, maybe a hotel at 17th and Central, you know, and why not? And of course, things got better. We get the Performing Arts Center, world -class, and the Union Station was completely renovated.Kevin (06:59.762)And a lot of things happened that in unison, but we were always able to maintain old buildings, small tenancies. To this day, I have, you know, 14 buildings. I have 200 tenants. They're all small businesses. And those tenants range from single office tenants to small restaurants, to law firms, to salons. I mean, you know, 63rd street, for example, between Oak and Rock Hill.was 70 % vacant as a corridor in 2014. And now we're 100 % occupied and it's all small business. And small business got us through COVID. Small business stayed. They're resilient. You know, they're not making corporate decisions from afar. So, you know, being downtown, a lot of people say, well, how could you possibly want the baseball stadium in the crossroads? And, you know, I was initially,like everybody else, assuming the East Village was the spot. It made all the sense. You could do $2 billion worth of development. And I slowly came around to understand why the location they picked was the one they picked, and this is before they announced it. But I started thinking about the fact that the city of Kansas City is responsible for tax shortfalls, sales tax shortfalls at the Power and Light District and all that development. And, you know,That's just part of the deal. I mean, if you really look at all the ancillary revenues they get because of the effects of the Paranlight district, it's probably still a positive for the city. However, why would you try to be far enough away that people get there, park, go to a few bars around there and leave and create competition for yourself? Where the location they picked is for the most part, the Kansas city star building.a newer church building that already they've outgrown, a lot of vacant ground, and then a block of buildings that of course, most people would like to see them not tear those buildings down, but in any development, you will lose some buildings. And they do have to have some ancillary space for parking, for season ticket parking, for offices, a little revenue from a hotel, things to offset the cost.Kevin (09:24.914)And so I started looking at it and I said, it's also two blocks from the streetcar as opposed to eight blocks. And if we are going to grow our habit and try to get a, you know, what we call an intermodal transportation option, that is non -car options downtown, whether it be Uber or the streetcar or other forms of transportation, you know, we've got to encourage people to use the streetcar. We've got to encourage people to use Uber. So.It became apparent to me that the Kansas City Star Building was going to do nothing. And, you know, so I did come to support it. Now, do I support it unconditionally? No, I think there are some challenges that they must deal with and get out in front of. Parking is the number one. Security is a close second. Respect for the people who are being displaced is probably up there at a tie for number one. And,You know, I've had some talks, I've had some opportunities to talk to the Royals a

Of all the parts of this enjoyable conversation with Seth Zeren, now of Providence, RI, the part I liked the most was this quote:The worst fight is with your allies that betray you.The quote, which is mostly about perception, says a lot about people who are frequently in heated agreement with each other, but find themselves disagreeing on something that’s very minor in the big picture. We discuss this as we discuss his post called, “When New Urbanists and YIMBYs fight.”Seth has a great Substack, talking about all the overlap in his interests from city planning to development and more. His path and his passion are impressive. From his early days working in local government, to now the cold, hard reality of making development projects work. And what’s next? Perhaps some place management, perhaps some housing policy advocacy, perhaps just more really interesting redevelopment projects.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend”Transcript:Kevin (00:01.269)Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I'm excited today to have Seth Zarin here with me on the podcast. Seth and I have met in the past and corresponded a little bit. Seth has a sub stack that I definitely recommend called Build the Next Right Thing. And he's in Providence, Rhode Island, which is actually, I think, one of the sort of most underratedsmaller cities in the country. I've always really liked Providence, enjoyed it. So Seth, welcome to the podcast. I know we're going to have a lot of good things to talk about. We're going talk some housing and some other stuff, but glad to have you on so we can do this.Seth Zeren (00:43.574)Thanks Kevin, it's nice to be here.Kevin (00:46.261)I think, you know, Seth, I want to kind of start by talking about you're another guy who has a really interesting path and background into becoming into the development world, which is what you're doing now, but certainly not at all where you started. And I wonder if you could kind of walk people through your professional background and then even like why you wanted to do a sub stack.in the first place, as some of us silly people do to put thoughts out in the world.Seth Zeren (01:19.862)Yeah, absolutely. I usually introduce myself when I meet people by saying that I'm a former climate scientist, recovering city planner, turned real estate developer. I usually get a laugh on recovering. Much like people who have all sorts of addiction issues, city planning is something that you always kind of in the back of your head, always kind of want to work on, but can be really challenging.Kevin (01:35.381)Ha ha ha.Seth Zeren (01:48.918)I'm actually from California. I grew up in the San Francisco suburbs, south of the city in Silicon Valley, basically. And by the time I graduated high school, it was quite clear that I would never be able to afford to live there. At that point, houses were selling for about a million dollars for a little ranch. Now it's about $3 million. And so by the time I left for college, I sort of knew that the housing situation there had been a little bit of a mess.broken so much that it was really unlikely that I would be able to find a good quality of life there for myself at that time. In college, I ended up studying geology and climate science. So I was a geology major, geosciences major, and I narrowly averted the PhD. I dodged it, fortunately, and I found myself really becoming interested after college. I went and lived in South Korea for a year and I taught English there. AndIt was such a different experience than growing up in an American suburb or in a small town where I went to college. And it really got me thinking a lot. And when I came back to the U S and I went and worked at a boarding school while I was figuring out what I wanted to do with my life. And I started to read about cities and urbanism and architecture. And I realized that, Oh, actually at the time I thought I wanted to go to school and do architecture, but I was really intimidated by portfolio and drawing. And I had, I was a scientist. I mean, I could do data.I understood geology, but, um, so I was really intimidated by that. I ended up going to an environmental management program at Yale where I could kind of moonlight in law and architecture and business. And so that was kind of my entree. And I discovered I really liked zoning at the time. Uh, and I like to say like, I like board games and zoning is basically just the biggest board game imaginable. It's a huge map, bunch of colored spaces and a really long rule book, which was totally my jam. And.Kevin (03:38.485)Yeah. Yeah.Seth Zeren (03:46.038)So I was a zoning, big zoning nerd. I interned with the planning department, but you know, in between the two years of graduate school and then got a job as a zoning official after graduate school for Newton, Massachusetts, which is kind of that wealthy first ring suburb outside of Boston where the doctors and professors go to have children. And, uh, I was there for about three years before I kind of realized this was not the place for me. I wanted to do stuff. I wanted to shake things up and.One of the dynamics you'll encounter when you find a sort of a wealthy sort of trophy suburb, right, is that people buy there because they like what it is. Right. So the political dynamic in a place like Newton, like many wealthy suburbs around many cities in America is people are buying a particular place and they want it to stay that way. That's what they bought. And so there's a real change aversion there, which was just a bad fit for someone in their twenties, whose master's degree and wants to get stuff done. And.I had also at the time had the opportunity to work with a bunch of developers. And this was coming out of the financial crisis. So there wasn't a lot happening right away, but slowly, slowly things started to get back in gear. And after about three or four years there, I decided I was going to jump ship from the, from the planning side and eventually found myself working at a development shop as a development manager, kind of coming in to do the permitting work. Right. So I just basically switched sides. I was going to go do permitting for the developer.moving complex projects through design review and master plan approval and stuff like that. And I did that for my sort of early apprenticeship for about three or four years. And got to the point where, you know, I got married, we thought about buying a house and realized Boston was also too expensive. So we started considering other places and Providence was nearby. We'd visited, we had friends here. And at the time, certainly it was massively more affordable than the Boston Cambridge area.So we moved down here about eight, maybe nine years ago, about. And so I was working as a development manager, you know, for a larger firm. And then when I came down here, I was still working remotely, but I connected with some local developers and eventually joined a local firm, Armory Management Company, which is a 35 year old, almost 40 year old partnership now that has done historic rehab.Seth Zeren (06:09.782)Main Street revitalization ground up in field development and came on board here, you know, also as a development manager and kind of worked my way up. Now I'm a partner and working on kind of the future of the firm and future of development in the Providence area. So that's kind of my, my origin story. It's one path. I haven't met a lot of other people who've come through the planner path into development. I would say that I was one of those people that you probably remember this, Kevin, you know, whatever eight, nine, 10 years ago at CNU.There was this whole conversation about why are you working for shitty developers? You know, to architects, planners, engineers, go be your own. And I took that very much to heart and was trying to find a way to do it. And I've kind of managed to find a way to do it, come through that.Kevin (06:54.709)Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have met a few other folks who kind of started in the planning route and then ended up in development. But yeah, you're right. There's not too many. I mean, one thing I'm curious about, Seth, so like I'm a Midwestern or so. I don't have that experience of growing up someplace and then realizing like I'm never going to be able to come back. I mean, so a lot of Midwesterners like myself leave at some point.And then often we find our way back home, but it's like, and there may, there's lots of reasons why people do the things, but there's never seems to be this like logistical issue that says, well, I'm just not going to be able to afford to come back where I grew up. What, what's that? And what's that like to at some point have this realization in the place you grew up in, which you probably have some really fond feelings and memories for that you just, you weren't going to be able to make it back or you weren't going to be able to afford to.make it back. That must be a strange feeling.Seth Zeren (07:55.414)It is, and I will say it becomes a lot stranger when you have your own kids, which I have now. I have two young children and we go back to California, you know, once maybe twice a year visit my parents who are still in the house I grew up in. And you know that neighborhood that I grew up in, you know, hasn't built. More than a couple net new homes in the last 50 years, right? Homes get torn down and they get replaced by bigger homes, but.Kevin (08:00.501)Yeah, sure.Seth Zeren (08:24.246)There's no net additional homes. But my parents raised three kids in that house who all have their own households. My parents are still in that house. So sort of mechanically, if you have a neighborhood that doesn't add any homes, you're essentially, but you have, but you have

Eric Brown spends most of his time designing beautiful buildings and doing urban plans for his firm, Brown Design Studio. But, when you get him away from the desk, you find someone with a good sense of history, and an understanding of how to get things done. We partnered up together in Savannah to help create the Savannah Urbanism Series (a guest lecture series), host CNU 26, and create the Savannah 2033 Plan for greater downtown.With all of Eric’s many accomplishments, he’s a good person to talk with when we try to understand the bigger landscape of change and cities. So, we cover a lot of ground including the role of the business community in planning historically, what all is going on in Savnanah, and what he’s seeing with new, greenfield development. He talks a bit about his project Selah, in Norman OK, as one example.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend”Transcript:Kevin K (00:01.346)Welcome back to the messy city podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg Got my good buddy Eric Brown with me today. Eric is architect urban designer man about town Savanian What what else should I have on your resume here?Eric (00:22.818)Probably my best accomplishment, which is being a father.Kevin K (00:25.718)There you go, there you go. All right, well, I'm in that with you now as well, although I was a little later at the party than you, but it's a pretty awesome responsibility and I know Nick's a great kid, so congratulations on that.Eric (00:41.494)You haven't seen him in a while. He's six foot one now.Kevin K (00:45.142)Jesus, it's taller than me? That's not possible.Eric (00:47.982)He's a, he's still grown too. He's a big boy. He's going to be a big boy. And, uh, you also haven't seen ace the wonder dog.Kevin K (00:57.418)Yeah, yeah, I know. It's been a couple of years since I've been back. Although watch out rumor is we're gonna make a trip back this year, so I'll let you know. So I wanted to, there's a lot of things Eric and I talk about and there's any number of directions we can go with this hour today, but I do wanna hit a couple of things specific to like what stuff that you work on and some things that we did years ago.Um, Eric and I were kind of partners in crime in Savannah, um, really trying to, um, bring more discussion about new urbanism and, and better long-term planning, uh, to the city. And that may seem like a strange thing because Savannah is famous for its planning, uh, and its built environment. But like a lot of cities in the last several decades, um, it's really just been kind of the default.same stuff that you see everywhere, other than the historic district. So one of the things that Eric and I kind of put our heads together on was to get a group together and do an updated master plan of sorts for the greater downtown area of Savannah. We did this in 2018. We called it the Savannah 2033 plan. And...We called it 2033 because not just because it was like 15 years was a nice round number away, but really because 2033 is the 300th anniversary of the founding of Savannah. Savannah is actually older than the United States as a country. So it felt like a great benchmark for us to give. And I flew the coupe a few years ago, so I haven't been in touch in Savannah with every...as much of what's going on, but I wondered, Eric, if you could talk a little bit about that plan and effort and any legacies from that and what might be going on today, sort of good, bad, or indifferent, regards to thinking about planning in downtown Savannah.Eric (03:11.402)Um...That's a good question. And you know...I'm gonna kind of circle back to that answer in a second. But, you know, we also, you know, you and I also kind of had our little CNU group here, brought the Congress here in whatever year that was. But, you know, as part of that CNU group, we did a series of...Urban Speaker Series. You know, we had Mayor Riley, we had Deiru Tadani, we had Rick Hall. Um, we had, yeah, we had a, um, you know, the top talent and, you know, I'm sure I'm forgetting a few on there. And.Kevin K (04:01.738)Chuck Morrone, yeah, Joe Menard goes there, yeah.Eric (04:14.634)you know, when I'm really kind of proud of our efforts, you know, even after all these years.Eric (04:23.242)because people still talk about that. You know, they still talk about those. And, you know, if you were listening to you and I back in 2018 or 17 or whenever that was, we were doing those, 19. You know, our mission, what we told everybody our mission was is to raise the bar of discourse and education here on urban planning matters and.You know, I got to say buddy, congratulations, because it took a while to sink in, but we did it. You know.Kevin K (04:56.175)Well, things move a little more slowly in Savannah, right?Eric (04:58.938)Absolutely they move slow.Kevin K (05:01.586)Although, honestly, they move slowly everywhere. So, what are you gonna do?Eric (05:07.531)But I've seen the effects of some of those. And I think.You know, we've given people the vocabulary and in some cases, passion to go deal with some of these issues. Some of our elected officials, some of our staff members. And so I just wanted to kind of tell you that, you know, all those efforts that were pretty much thankless at the time are still somewhat thankless. But, you know, we did do it. We had an effect on that. So.I'm real proud of you and our efforts on there. So I wanted to throw that out there. There's some significant changes coming that I really can't mention. I don't think it's appropriate to mention right now. But when they do occur, you'll be shocked and you'll know exactly how much of an effect we had.Kevin K (05:54.046)That's great to hear.Eric (06:17.038)exciting to see if that does come to fruition. And everyone out there in podcast land, cause I've talked to other senior groups about doing this or those grassroots education efforts, they are thankless, just they're important though. It's really the most important thing I think you can do as a local group. So hammer away at that stuff, cause it does bear fruit.But back to your planning question, you know that master plan...Eric (06:57.246)was really good work. That our team.you know, just did some really amazing work in a very short time for what we were doing.Kevin K (07:08.89)on a shoestring too. I mean, we did that on a ridiculous budget.Eric (07:10.51)Oof.Yeah, yeah, we did. Um, but.Kevin K (07:17.078)I mean you and almost – you and basically everybody else donated huge amounts of time or else it never would have gotten done.Eric (07:24.47)Well, you know, again, I think it's kind of the same thing. You know, we did get, you know, city council to adopt that guide.You know, I don't know that they have ever gone back and looked at it since then. Um, but it has. Spurned off and affected a lot of things. You know, the tide to town has been a success here, which is, you know, kind of linking up, um, some bike trails with some of our canals Savannah's got a lot of canals, um, and waterways.and kind of tying all those together so that you can really get somewhere substantial on a bike that's in a nice interesting setting, you're not sharing the road with automobiles. So that's just, they just got more funding for their next phase. It's very, it's a huge success story and that's probably the biggest one that came out of that effort. You know, there'sThere's continuing work with the Civic Center, which is one of the focal points of that plan. And the work we put in there is a good kind of milestone, I think, to judge the future work by.Eric (09:00.246)And the Waters corridor has finished up and it looks really nice. I just went, I was over there the other day. And so, you know, those efforts kind of helped that area a little bit, which was part of the East side charrette as well from the Congress.Kevin K (09:21.13)Yeah. You know, one of the things we used to talk about, Eric, it kind of may help people to have some context to know that this was basically a planning effort that we put together that was outside City Hall. We worked kind of through the remnants of Savannah Development and Renewal Authority, but we also went out and raised money privately andand pieced it together. And that was something like, you and I used to talk about that all the time, how, I wonder if you could just expand on this, you know, that one of the frustrations we have is that in so many cities, the business community and people who ought to know better about development and, you know, things that would work well, at least financially in a city.the business community largely has kind of stepped away from being involved in planning and we used to just, that's something we kind of wrung our hands about all the time. Even in a great historic city like Savannah that was often the case, but clearly cities all over the country, you know, it's just been a sea change in how people think about that. And I wonder if you could kind of share some of your thoughts on that.Eric (10:43.033)Yeah, so...You know, I'm a big history buff, history fan, as it relates to planning, but just in general. And, you know, when you look at some of the great plans that have been done.Eric (11:05.366)plan for San Francisco, the plan for Chicago, heck, even the 1815 plan for Manhattan. You know, it wasn't the city of Chicago didn't do that plan. It was the business community that wrote Dan Burnham and Unlimited Check to go get it done, make us a world-class city.And San Francisco did the same thing.It's because the business community needed a competitive city to be competitive in an emerging national market, you know, and never in our history until probably, I would guess, posted.post-war or maybe probably during the depression that started where you had you started to rely on government

Daniel Herriges has been one of my favorite reads on the Strong Towns site for many years. He has thoughtful, in-depth pieces on many subjects, notably housing. Now, he has co-authored a new book with Chuck Marohn called “Escaping the Housing Trap.” We discuss the book, and much more, including my guest appearance in the book.New feature: transcript belowFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend”Kevin K (00:02.704)Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. Thanks for listening. I've got a special guest here today, somebody who has been one of my favorite reads for many years now. Daniel Herrigus is here joining us. And Daniel, it's great to see you.Daniel Herriges (00:24.11)Great to be here, Kevin. Thank you.Kevin K (00:25.85)We're going to talk a lot about housing today and housing itself is obviously, it's probably one of the most, been one of the most talked about topics nationally inside the urban planning and development world and outside that world as well, probably for at least a decade as housing costs have really exploded in a lot of places in the country. So it's a very, very common conversation piece.And a lot of it is often frustrating and confusing to talk about. So into this, Daniel Steps, he's actually been writing about this for some time on the Strong Towns website and writing really great pieces. And now he is the co -author of a new book with Chuck Marrone called Escaping the Housing Trap, which comes out, when does it come out Daniel?Daniel Herriges (01:21.494)April, April 23rd.Kevin K (01:23.152)April 23rd, okay. So I'm really, really looking forward to this. I think Daniel and I have probably learned from each other quite a bit in things that we've talked about and written about. And so I'm really, I'm excited to have this conversation and kind of dive deeper a little bit into the general topic of housing and his perspective and the book's perspective on it.So Daniel was kind enough to share with me a little bit of the introduction. And I say that just because I've marked a few notes to help me direct the conversation a little bit. Housing is so broad as a topic. There's about a thousand different places you can go. And I really like how you laid it out here in the beginning. But I do want to start with just kind of one piece that I think is really fundamental that I just highlighted here a couple of sentences.And I know probably for strong towns readers, this will sound familiar, but I just think it's important to emphasize this and repeat it because, and have you expand on it. But you talk about central to this approach is that recognition that cities are complex systems. They are shaped by countless decisions made by millions of individuals over time with interconnections that are challenging to trace or fully grasp. When attempts are made to simplify.or ignore this inherent complexity in organizing urban life, challenges and disruptions arise. I wonder if you could expand a little bit on that and why do you think that's so fundamental to this conversation?Daniel Herriges (03:04.526)Yeah, well, it's something that's been it's been fundamental to the Strong Towns conversation for a long time, as I think anybody who's read the blog and is familiar with our work knows. And I do think it's central to to grasping what's really gone wrong. You know, it's it's funny, I would talk to people casually, you know, old friends and stuff in the process of writing this book, and they'd say, well, what's new in your life? And I'd say, well, I'm co -writing this book with my boss and.It's about the housing crisis. And an old high school friend of mine, I remember I'm sitting down for coffee with him, and I said, I'm writing a book about the housing crisis. And he goes, oh, cool. Wait, which one? I've never talked to anybody who like, I say housing crisis and they scoff at the idea like, oh no, there isn't a housing crisis. But people's understandings of what that means are incredibly varied because of exactly what you're saying and what you pulled out of the intro to the book. That what,Kevin K (03:41.84)Hahaha.Kevin K (03:49.776)Yeah.Daniel Herriges (04:02.03)really we try to organize the narrative around in this book is we have this massive paradigm shift in the 20th century in how we house ourselves as a society in the US. And to a lesser extent, Canada, I think throughout the Anglosphere, you can see commonalities, but we have this massive paradigm shift alongside sort of the broader paradigm shift that we've talked about as the suburban experiment at Strong Towns.starting in the mid 20th century and really upending the way we finance housing and all sorts of urban development, the way we finance it, the way we plan it and regulate it, and our cultural assumptions about it. And what that really amounts to, at the core of that paradigm shift, is this very modernist, this very 20th century idea that we can solve, we can permanently solve the messiness of the city.that we can permanently solve these tensions that exist around, well, how is your neighborhood going to change and evolve? Are you going to be uncomfortable with that change? Are people going to be displaced? Is the character going to change? How are you going to finance housing? Is it going to be a struggle? Are you going to have to make sacrifices? This idea emerges for a number of reasons that we can delve deeper into that, well, we can solve all these problems now. In a modern, prosperous society, we're going to have mass.middle class prosperity, we're going to have mass homeownership. It's going to be an economic engine. It's going to be the the foundation of everything good in society. We're going to build, we're going to plan neighborhoods that are better than the places people have lived in the past. It's all going to be scientific and orderly and optimized. And through that, we can deliver kind of a permanently prosperous society. And this is the vision that emerges through the 1930s into the middle of the century.And looking back now, decades later, we can really see the cracks in that vision. And those cracks look like a whole bunch of different things breaking. And to most people, housing crisis means the affordability crisis, which is especially acute in certain kind of high cost regions of the country. So a lot of the discourse around, quote unquote, the housing crisis, initially starts to come out of places like New York City, like San Francisco, like Boston, and it's all about, well, nobody can afford the rent anymore.Daniel Herriges (06:26.926)But we paint, I think, a picture of it that's inclusive of that, but broader than that. Because there are all sorts of ways in which housing is just broken. We're not building the right kinds of housing for people's needs. We're not building it in the right places. A lot of people are squeezed. They're overly indebted. They're making huge sacrifices in terms of how they live their life or where they can live their life. We're not happy. We've largely lost faith that...the development industry is going to be responsive to community needs and is going to give us products that really amount to the kind of communities we want to live in. Things are just, they're fundamentally broken in a lot of ways that don't necessarily tie up with a bow into a really neat package. Like, well, this is the definition of the housing crisis and this is the thing that's wrong. So I think the messy city is a great place to be having this conversation because it's kind of a messy book, and deliberately so, because it tries to get at all of these different facets of, well, what is the paradigm that emerged with the suburban experiment? And then what are all these sort of cascading consequences of it that have led to the situation we're in today?Kevin K (07:45.36)So let me give you some of the, just right off the top, let's maybe get the grumpy old man questions out of the way. I'll give you some of the grumpy old man questions. Well, so one of them is, well, you know, you're mostly talking about cities in certain parts of the country where they just make it really hard to build anything, and that's why housing is so expensive. And...Daniel Herriges (07:52.846)Hahaha.Kevin K (08:09.968)Also, you know, when I was a young person, we shared bedrooms. My starter home was an 800 square foot house and you expect a 2000 or 2400 square foot house. And it's really just expectations have changed.Daniel Herriges (08:29.166)Yeah, so that's two great kind of grumpy old man questions to use your parlance there. Yeah, I think that in terms of sort of the geographic question, the loudest voices in the discourse tend to be from these places that are really kind of exceptional, San Francisco, New York. But the sense that there's a housing crisis is much, much broader and more widespread than that. It just manifests a little bit differently.Kevin K (08:32.016)I'm good for those.Daniel Herriges (08:56.654)I think that you hear it and you see it in Kansas City where you are. I mean, I'm certainly aware of some of the stories of, you know, some of the tenant activism that has come out of Kansas City, people who really are finding their housing situation, the options available to them, finding it to be dire. I think that in every city, there are issues where there are these mismatches and these spillovers in terms of where really should we be building housing and what kind of product should we be building?versus what are we building? You have neighborhoods that are mired in stasis, that are mired in disinvestment for decades. They've got really good bones, they're good places, they have a lot of historic character, they have people who deeply love them, but places that just can't catch a break. At t

David Gale was the first significant client that hired my old architecture/planning firm, back in 2001. Dave was already a successful developer of master-planned communities in Lee’s Summit, Missouri, and we worked together for several years to create Kansas City’s first and largest Traditional Neighborhood Development called New Longview. Cutting out the jargon, that means the first new, walkable community planned along the lines of older communities.Gale Communities has worked for years on the Winterset developments in Lee’s Summit, and Dave has brought his passion and vision to suburban development. My experience is, he’s always tried to push the envelope of quality development, while maintaining a sharp focus on what is profitable. He blends a deep knowledge of marketing and business, with a Canadian’s eye on creating community.Twenty years later, I really enjoyed having this conversation with Dave. His perspective has always been unique in the KC market, and his success speaks for itself. Hopefully, his work can inspire younger people about what is possible and the difference they can make in the lives of people through thoughtful development.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Conversations about zoning and building can get really wonky really quickly. That’s why it’s important to remember the goal: how do we create more of the kind of intimate, find-grained communities that humans obviously love? Can we actually do this all through development regulations? History hasn’t been kind to that notion over the last hundred years. New urbanists designers innovated form-based codes as a counterpoint to segregated-use zoning. Some of those have worked, and some haven’t. We discuss the pros and cons of those codes in this episode, and what appears to be the latest innovation: pre-approved building plans.Matthew Petty and Matt Hoffman have teamed up to create their solution: Pattern Zones. From their home base in beautiful Northwest Arkansas, they travel the country evangelizing and innovating about the next generation of development regulations. And, how to make this all easier with better outcomes.Tech issues nearly killed this episode, but somehow we prevailed. I think it’s a great companion to my discussion with The Jennifers, who also work on pre-approved buildings.A final thought: this episode reminds me that my experience has shown that nearly all innovation in local government starts in small towns and small cities. There’s a deeper thread in there as to why, and a conversation I hope to explore at length in the future.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Each year, I like to set aside some time and figure out priorities for the year ahead. This time, I took a step back and asked, “What do I think the priorities should be for my community? For my little corner of the world, what would help us thrive?”Some of these may surprise you, and some may not. But it’s my best attempt to work this all out for myself. I’m not perfect; none of us are. I have my own blind spots and preferences. But coming from the vantage point of an urban planner, an architect, someone in place management, these six are where I would begin.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all! For this final episode of 2023, we convene some of my KC brain trust to discuss a few perennial hot topics. We have a lengthy discussion on district parking and parking management in a car-dominated metro region, we discuss the possible future location of the Kansas City Royals, and talk some about current projects and lessons learned in small-scale infill development.When it comes to baseball, there’s tons of great websites out there on stadiums, but I think this one on historic stadiums that are now gone is a good one. Here’s a page on KC’s old Municipal Stadium, which we discuss. And I can’t help but push people toward my interview with Philip Bess on this topic as well, including our work on saving Fenway Park.Projects we discuss:Columbus Park Townhomes2000 VineWheatley-Provident HospitalBoone TheaterFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Abby Newsham hosts the excellent podcast “Upzoned” on the Strong Towns network. I always recommend it to people, since it’s a great way to keep on top of current issues in the field, and you’ll get plenty of contrarian takes. Sometimes, the contrarian is me, but often it’s Strong Towns President Chuck Marohn. Abby has had a recent hiatus from hosting podcasts (but set to return in 2024), and so we do a little reverse Upzoned this time where I get to interview her. We discuss this piece called “Have you Ever Seen a City?” by Addison del Mastro on his blog, The Deleted Scenes. Addison challenges us to ask, do we often even really know what we’re talking about when we discuss these issues?We also talk about Abby’s recent involvement in Kansas City with the KC Community Land Trust and their project to renovate the old Marlborough School. Abby is sinking her teeth into a development project with the KCCLT for the first time, and there’s some interesting lessons. Some of those lessons are outgrowths of her work to lead the local Small Developers group.Abby is a planner with multistudio in Kansas City. You can find her on Instagram and Twitter.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Those of us who willingly embrace a label such as “urbanists” or “new urbanists” would do well to recognize we are a tiny minority of the population. If we want our tiny minority to grow, and our cities to succeed, we need to better appreciate what appeals to everyone else. Let’s learn to recognize those traits, and then make our cities better. When we forgive failure or incompetence, we do no one any favors - including the places we love.Happy Thanksgiving, and Happy Holidays to all.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Paul Knight, a planner with the design firm Historical Concepts, can give you a dozen reasons for just about anything. More importantly, he can give you reasons for brushing up on the lectures of former Georgia Tech professor Douglas Allen. Allen was a giant in the field of urban planning, and fortunately some of his former students and colleagues have carried on his work following his passing. Paul is one of them, helping form the Douglas Allen Institute.This may all sound very academic, and I know I often take shots at academia. But, when it works well, it’s amazing the impact one really great professor can have on so many people. I wanted to talk with Doug, because I know just how brilliant the man was, and how it’s even better that his work will live on for future generations. For example, the Institute was able to videotape his lectures from his “History of Urban Form” course, and they’ve made them available for free on YouTube. If you’re at all interested in the history of cities and towns, I couldn’t recommend something more highly.Several years ago, Paul also opened my eyes to the whole rabbit hole of base 12 versus base 10 measurements. I’m now a firm believer in base 12. In this episode, Paul even lets me know there’s a Dozenal Society. I should’ve guessed, but had no idea.Since we made a few minor errors in the podcast, here are the official corrections:* In regards to the “Jeffersonian” grid, and what it really should be called, here’s what Allen had in his lecture notes: “Congress formed a committee originally chaired by Thomas Jefferson, but  eventually by Hugh Williamson of North Carolina. Jefferson had proposed ten states and  a measurement system of his own invention based on the nautical mile. After Jefferson was called away to Paris, Williamson’s committee adopted the Gunter Chain and the system of feet and inches that are in use today.”* I was trying to think of the “4 rod Main Street,” which is a historic pattern throughout much of the United Kingdom and the US. The rod is 16.5 feet, and the four rod street was thus 66 feet wide. 66 feet is also one chain.* The reason a mile is 5,280 feet is that it’s exactly 320 rods.* The book I couldn’t remember was “Measuring America: How the United States was Shaped by the Greatest Land Sale in History.”Please look at the work of the Douglas Allen Institute, and the Urban Form Standard that Paul mentions. It’s really pretty terrific work.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Philip Bess joins me this week in a wide-ranging conversation about architecture, academia, and baseball. It’s not the first time we’ve shared such a bizarre collection of topics. We didn’t even get into localism, subsidiarity, and Georgism. We’ll save that for next time, I suppose.Mr. Bess is retiring from a career in academia, at Andrews University and Notre Dame University. I also had one of my very first design charrette experiences with Phil, back in 1999 in Ada, Michigan. We talk about his experience in academia as someone with a fondness for traditional architecture and urban design (hint: it’s not always popular), and we also mention the origin of the infamous “Dogbark Plan.”If you take anything away from this, understand the historical importance of the Fenway 7, and Philip’s little book called “City Baseball Magic.” It’s a gem that describes an alternate reality for (old?) New Comiskey Park in Chicago, and laid the groundwork for all of us ending up in Boston in the Summer of 2000 to help two local non-profits trying to save their beloved historic ballpark.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Somehow it’s fitting that his name is Clay. Yet, he’s more than just a brick mason. Clay Chapman is part artist, part philosopher, and part builder. His new buildings have captured the attention and imaginations of everyone who’s seen them. I joke with him that at every conference session I’ve seen, he’s the most popular presenter. But it’s no joke; people are enthralled by his newly constructed homes.Clay talks about how he became the country’s most famous bricklayer (ok, that’s my moniker for him), and the ins and outs of building new homes with structural masonry. We talk about the difference between brick veneer and structural masonry, some of the details, and how this type of work can scale.Clay now mostly works at Carlton Landing, a new development on Lake Eufaula in Oklahoma. He’s trained a number of people that are doing similar work, including Austin Tunnell of Building Culture, in Oklahoma City.If you go see any new construction this year, go see these buildings. Take a trip to Oklahoma, you won’t regret it.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Today, I discuss three chapters of issues that are tied together by the place-making triumvirate of design, policy and management. First, I revisit the International Downtown Association (IDA) annual conference, and the importance of place management organizations. Very quietly, these types of groups are stepping up to better manage public space in neighborhoods all over the country. It’s a great thing. Second, I dig deeper into the issues facing many schools and getting kids to schools on buses. I ask, is this yet another example of how we seem to be drifting fitfully back toward 1910? What do you think? Is there a solution to the bussing dilemma? Can we afford to keep operating a system just for children? Are there other things you see, that feel like harkening back to a previous era of civilization?Finally, why do our thoughts on economic development in rural areas continue to just be nothing more than warmed-up leftovers from a previous era? Do we have the capacity to critically examine systems that haven’t worked, abandon them and start over? Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

I’ve long said it’s incredibly unfortunate we have such negative caricatures of real estate developers. Perhaps this is a sad legacy of the movie “Caddyshack.” Or, perhaps it’s the relentless wave of cherry-picked stories that dominate our media narratives.All the while, we have people like Diane Botwin, who just go about their lives and days creating wonderful projects, partnerships and good deeds for human beings. Why isn’t she our picture of a developer? In this episode, we trace Diane’s path from musician to attorney to developer. You may even notice she’s managing a construction project in the background during the interview. We also talk a bit about WIRED KC, or Women in Real Estate Development. It’s an incredible story, worthy of a whole episode.Diane is the owner of Botwin Commercial Development in Kansas City. I’m also fortunate to be partnered with her and Andrew Ganahl on an infill development here as a small part of AND Real Estate. We are building ten townhomes and ten apartments in the wonderful Columbus Park neighborhood.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

In the very small world of people working on the concept of pre-approved building plans for infill development, Jennifer Griffin and Jennifer Settle have been pioneers. “The Jennifers,” as a few of us jokingly call them (I’ll have a future episode with “The Matts”) meet with me to discuss their work in South Bend, and their own journeys as entrepreneurs in the world of urban design and architecture.Jen Griffin runs her own firm in Tulsa, OK called J Griffin Design.Jen Settle now works with Opticos Design, in their Chicago office.They both have worked extensively in a volunteer and partnership capacity with the Incremental Development Alliance and Neighborhood Evolution.For more detailed information on the work in South Bend, click here.As a side note, for anyone interested in more discussion on entrepreneurship while being a Mom, check out this episode with Alli Quinlan.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Please take a moment and give this podcast a review on your favorite podcast platform.David Sucher’s 1995 classic, City Comforts is a book I have long recommended to anyone with an interest in cities, design and planning. In a way, the book really hit the cultural mark in that era. It was set in Seattle, which was the locus for 1990s culture, especially musical culture. You could almost pair up the book with the 1990s movie, “Singles,” for a sense of what was happening broadly with the American zeitgeist, and perhaps Douglas Coupland’s novel Microserfs. David’s book was eminently practical, with not a smidge of utopian thinking. It’s written and told by someone who sees problems to be solved at the micro scale, and solutions that can be had. It’s written in a series of very short vignettes. It’s written with an obvious love and care for humans, and for the cities they inhabit. And while it clearly derives from the era, it could be re-published today with very few changes and having similar relevance. In fact, that’s something David and I discuss.Here’s a few links we discuss:David’s “3 Rules for a Walkable Neighborhood”Allowing One Triplex per BlockOn the proposed gondola for Little Cottonwood CanyonFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

What exactly do “place management” organizations do, and where can they be most effective? I share my thoughts after leading Midtown KC Now for almost four years, and I see our role. Here’s a tease: I think the role of these sorts of organizations is incredibly important for the success of communities, and I fully expect this role to grow in the future. This is the kind of locally-based, micro-scale work that truly makes a difference.In the intro, I also reference former Charleston, SC Mayor Joe Riley. There’s many clips you can find of Riley on-line, but here’s a short one:I also discuss why I believe we need to have a growth mindset for the urban core of Kansas City. Here’s a few charts that I use to help explain this position:Please take a moment and give this podcast a review on your favorite podcast platform.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Jason Segedy has served in public service in Akron, Ohio for over 25 years. He’s been a leader at an MPO, and also the Planning Director in the city where he was born and raised. It’s safe to say that Jason has a lot of love for his hometown of Akron, Ohio.I began following Jason on social media, mostly Twitter, several years ago. I found him instantly to be one of the most thoughtful, provocative and insightful people on that forum. He’s a big thinker, but also eminently practical and funny. He cares deeply about his place, but he also knows there’s more to life than the simple pursuit of urban planning. In fact, that knowledge and sense of priorities has colored his on-again, off-again relationship with social media. That’s something we discuss in detail.Jason’s also a fabulous long-form writer, and I hope he takes it up again soon. Here’s his Tumblr blog, “Notes from the Underground.” Please take a moment and give this podcast a review on your favorite podcast platform.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe