Peaceful Exit

Poet Jenny George was always drawn to writing about death and dying, even before she lost her wife to ovarian cancer. In her latest collection of poems, "After Image," Jenny uses the lens of grief to describe caring for and losing her sweetheart, and to explore what it means to live in the shadow of her death. Jenny tells Sarah about the challenges of writing about dying, and also why her grief sometimes makes her feel like "an old baby."

Mary Roach is a New York Times bestselling author and acclaimed science writer who once thought science was boring. She has traveled the world and written fascinating, humorous books about the human body and its curiosities. Today she discusses three of them with Sarah: "Stiff," "Six Feet Over," and her latest, "Replaceable You." They also talk about how our culture got so squeamish about dead bodies, and where we might go after we die. Learn more about Mary Roach and her wonderful books at https://www.maryroach.net/For more information and to become an organ donor, please visit https://www.organdonor.gov/

It's time for the annual holiday episode, and this year we're revisiting a few of our favorite conversations from 2025. (It was tough to pick, they are all favorites!) You'll hear excerpts from Sarah's interviews with puppeteer Basil Twist; death educator Joél Simone; poet Danusha Laméris; journalist Oliver Burkeman; and writer-illustrator duo Suzy Hopkins and Hallie Bateman. Each of these guests brought a new perspective on death and grief to our podcast. We are grateful to all of our listeners this year. May your holidays bring you peace.

Social worker Lisa Keefauver was just 40 years old when her husband died from cancer in her arms. She has since become an outspoken grief activist, helping people identify, understand, live with, and talk about their grief through her book and podcast, "Grief Is a Sneaky Bitch." Lisa tells Sarah why scuba diving is a metaphor for life, how to metabolize your grief over a lifetime, and what to do when grief catches you off guard in the most unexpected moments. You can find more information on Lisa's work at www.lisakeefauver.com

Psychologist Dr. Lucy Hone studies resilience, a topic that hit especially close to home when her 12-year old daughter Abi and two friends were killed in a car crash in 2014. She tells Sarah how her close knowledge of resilience informed her grieving, why humans are hardwired to cope, and what role her grief over Abi plays in her life now. Lucy also shares practical tips for anyone who is grieving from her first book, "Resilient Grieving," and previews her new book about living losses, called "How Will I Ever Get Through This?," which will be out in 2026. For more information about Lucy Hone, please visit www.drlucyhone.com

Palliative care physician Dr. BJ Miller survived a near-death experience and lost three limbs at just 19 years old. In this intimate conversation, he tells Sarah how confronting mortality reshaped his purpose, and opened his heart to awe, humor, creativity, and love. BJ has been on a mission to redefine end-of-life care through his work at Mettle Health and his book, "A Beginner's Guide to the End." He invites you to challenge the fear and silence around death, and imagine a better way to live — and die.

Basil Twist is a world-famous puppeteer. His first full-length production, Symphonie Fantastique, flipped the audience's concept of the art form by existing entirely underwater in a massive tank. As he looks back on his decades-long career, we talk about what aging feels like, how losing a mentor changed him, and all the wonderful live shows he has collaborated on, and why seeing performances in-person matters. We explore the world of puppetry, and how the veil between being alive and not alive is so thin. He argues the audience does not need to suspend disbelief, but simply to believe.Learn more about Basil's work and see a video of Stickman: https://basiltwist.com/

Quan Huynh's story details the resilience of the human spirit. His book, "Sparrow in the Razor Wire: Finding Freedom from Within While Serving a Life Sentence," is an open, honest look at his life while incarcerated for committing murder. Quan was paroled in 2015, and, just six months later, he started his first company. He has devoted his entire career to helping incarcerated people have the best shot at a second chance. His lessons of internal transformation, healing, and friendship are universal. You can learn more about Quan and his work here: https://quanxhuynh.com/

This mother-daughter, writer-illustrator duo, has created two illustrated books together. The first stemmed from Hallie's painful realization that her mother would die someday. The second from Suzy's heartbreak when her husband of 30 years unexpectedly left her. The three of us talk about the ways that a break up is like a death, all the feelings that come with grief -- including rage -- and how to make your own ritual as a healing tool. Their grief literacy and dark sense of humor made this conversation relatable and models what is possible to talk about in families if only we have the courage.You can follow Suzy on Instagram @hopkinssuzy and Hallie @hallithbates.https://geni.us/whenyougetdumpedhttps://www.bloomsbury.com/us/what-to-do-when-im-gone-9781632869685/http://halliebateman.com/

In my conversation with poet Danusha Laméris, we talk about art, poetry, grief, and language. She reads from her latest collection of poems, "Blade by Blade," which is described as a book of hungers. We talk about what that means, how it relates to grief and how grief is rarely isolated. It's always connected to so many other human experiences and feelings. And she would know. We talk about two big losses in her life -- her brother and her son.

Lauren Canaday has lived quite a life. Two lives, if you ask her. In her memoir, Independence Ave: How Individualism Killed Me and Community Brought Me Back, Lauren recounts her dating life and career from statician to hair stylist to hair industry executive. Then the moment that changed everything -- Lauren suffered sudden cardiac arrest and didn't have a heartbeat for 24 minutes. By her husband's quick action and one fierce EMT, she survived, and was miraculously declared cognitively intact. In our converation, Lauren talks about how her endless pursuit for independence was turned upside down by this near death experience. She shares about the long and brutal road to recovery and how she's yet again rebuilding life to meet her reality. You can find Lauren and learn more about her work at https://laurencanaday.substack.com/

Oliver Burkeman's latest book, "Meditations for Mortals: Four Weeks to Embrace Your Limitations and Make Time for What Counts," is a guide to embracing what he calls the imperfect life. It's the realization that you're never going to sort your life out. So instead of attempting that futile task day after day and viewing your limitations as a human as obstacles to a meaningful life, you embrace them. In our conversation, Oliver and I dig into some common misconceptions about the human condition, why existing in the modern world asks so much of us, and how and why we must take action admist uncertainty. You can learn more about Oliver and his work here: https://www.oliverburkeman.com/

Rosemerry Wahtola Trommer knows grief. Her dad and son died in the same year. Like her latest book, The Unfolding, if this interview were music, it would be in the key of grief. Rosemerry shares how her daily writing practice helped her navigate the days and weeks following her son's death. She also explains how we can hold opposite things that may both be true. We can let go of the tired stories we tell ourselves and find new metaphors that better serve us. You can find Rosemerry's work and learn more about her poetry here: https://www.wordwoman.com/

Joél Simone Maldonado is a licensed funeral director and embalmer, spiritual death care educator and the founder of the Multicultural Death & Grief Care Academy. She's helping to revolutionize the death care industry by educating practitioners about culturally sensitive protocols and death care for communities of color. In this episode, we talk about everything from restorative art, to various disposition methods, to how Covid impacted the death care industry. Joél also talks about growing up in Beaufort, South Carolina, immersed in the Gullah Geechee culture. You can learn more about Joél and The Multicultural Death & Grief Care Academy: https://thegravewoman.com/You can find Joél's available death and grief care courses: 2AR0NMLjE3MzU3MDQ1MjAuQ2owS0NRaUF5YzY3QmhEU0FSSXNBTTk1UXp1NGl6UURSU1dCZjJkb25PWjN4eGNJSUZtOHdmT2E4eWdNQUtlaXBsR0RsYktIcWhraEYtd2FBa05KRUFMd193Y0IJoél's podcast, Death & Grief Talk with The Grave Woman: https://open.spotify.com/show/3mdh03yZygapqGX53tAwEn?si=e6b7f395d24d4938&nd=1&dlsi=0748b855318d4380Joél's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/thegravewoman

Rabbi Neil Blumofe is the senior rabbi at Congregation Agudas Achim in Austin, Texas, and has been part of that community for 26 years! Rabbi Blumofe and I talk about how music can help facilitate community and spirituality. If life is improvisation, then Judaism is jazz. And sometimes rock 'n roll. We also talk about forgiveness, belonging, what makes something sacred and how forgiveness is possible at any time.You can learn more about Rabbi Blumofe's work here: https://theaustinsynagogue.org/rabbi-neil-f-blumofe/

Daryl Horton is the senior pastor at Mt. Zion Baptist Church in Austin, Texas. He explains why community is a key tennant of his faith and why it's so critical that we preserve Black churches. We also talk about the death of his brother, getting the call to ministry and how the church can be a critical voice in the conversation about racial justice.You can learn more about Pastor Horton's work here: https://www.mtzion-baptist.org/content.cfm?id=577

Like authors, faith leaders are a great source for language about life and death. Venerable Jue Ji is a Buddhist nun who grew up in Taipei, Taiwan, and now calls Austin, Texas, home. Death is a key focus in Buddhism and Venerable shares ways that we can incorporate the idea of impermanence in our daily lives. We talk about how nature reflects impermance back to us, the afterlife, the death of her mother, and how her take on meditation is different from what many westerners think.You can learn more about Venerable Jue Ji's work here: https://www.ibps-austin.org/en/news/20240302C.php

Dr. Michael J Moore is a veterinary scientist who spent his entire career studying and advocating for the North Atlantic Right Whale. This is a critically endangered species, on the brink of extinction, due in large part to commercial fishing and shipping in the waters where they live. We talk about the critical role right whales play in the ocean's biodiversity and why biodiversity is so important to human survival. We explore what it means to have a relationship with the natural world, how we can conceptualize extinction in a way that our brains can grasp, and how he's working with industry to advance fishing technology to reduce whale death and ultimately save our ecosystem. You can learn more about Michael and his work here:https://www.whoi.edu/news-insights/content/michael-moore/https://www2.whoi.edu/staff/mmoore/?_gl=1%2Aa4isjz%2A_gcl_au%2AODU1NjMwNjUuMTczMjMwNTQyOQ..%2A_ga%2ANjA0MjQ3MTQwLjE3MzIzMDU0Mjk.%2A_ga_HLKFZX9JZK%2AMTczMjMwNTQyOS4xLjAuMTczMjMwNTQyOS4wLjAuMA..You can find his book, We Are All Whalers, here: https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-All-Whalers-Responsibility/dp/022680304X

We live in a culture that avoids talking about death and Peaceful Exit is an invitation to be in candid conversation about it. In season five, host Sarah Cavanaugh is talking with writers, artists, musicians and other creatives who have explored death through their art, to help us demystify and normalize this very human experience. There's no guarantee of a peaceful exit, but imagining into the experience you want can help build courage in the face of death. Accepting your mortality will give you a sense of peace. And it’s not all doom and gloom – there's joy, meaning, and connection to be found in exploring the messiness of death, dying, and grief. We can radically accept our eventual demise.Learn more at https://www.peacefulexit.net/

As the show begins to switch gears a bit, from talking with authors to talking with artists, theologians, musicians, poets –creatives of all kinds – we take a moment to reflect on what we’ve learned over the years making the show. Sarah talks with Larj Media’s Principle Creative, Tina Nole, to talk about why she began these conversations and the many ways making the Peaceful Exit podcast has impacted her.This podcast is produced by Larj Media.