Fearless Creative Leadership

Here’s a question. What do you think and why? This week’s guests are Tom O’Keefe and Jeff King. They are two of the four partners who have just merged their respective businesses, OKRP and Barkley. Mergers are a forcing function for open-mindedness. And for doing things differently. The ability to accept the need to do things differently, to truly change perspectives, is a never ending leadership challenge. In my experience, you have to be pretty clear about your own point of view in order to embrace new ones. Worry too much about providing strong leadership, and the temptation to stick to our beliefs — even in the face of evidence or views to the contrary — becomes almost like a drug. An addiction to being right or first or better. This is perhaps the most damaging characteristic that any leader can possess. And too much of it will ensure you’re not a leader of very many or very much for very long. When we are clear about why we think what we think, when we are free of insecurity or hubris or ego, then we can assess an alternative path with an open mind. Mergers provoke the need to lead through this lens. Tom’s outline for unleashing the creative potential of the newly formed business is filled with best practice. But regardless of external forcing functions — like mergers — being clear about why we think what we think is table stakes for the most fearless leaders. So what do you think? And what will it take for you to see things from a different perspective?

Edited highlights of our full length conversation. Here’s a question. What do you think and why? This week’s guests are Tom O’Keefe and Jeff King. They are two of the four partners who have just merged their respective businesses, OKRP and Barkley. Mergers are a forcing function for open-mindedness. And for doing things differently. The ability to accept the need to do things differently, to truly change perspectives, is a never ending leadership challenge. In my experience, you have to be pretty clear about your own point of view in order to embrace new ones. Worry too much about providing strong leadership, and the temptation to stick to our beliefs — even in the face of evidence or views to the contrary — becomes almost like a drug. An addiction to being right or first or better. This is perhaps the most damaging characteristic that any leader can possess. And too much of it will ensure you’re not a leader of very many or very much for very long. When we are clear about why we think what we think, when we are free of insecurity or hubris or ego, then we can assess an alternative path with an open mind. Mergers provoke the need to lead through this lens. Tom’s outline for unleashing the creative potential of the newly formed business is filled with best practice. But regardless of external forcing functions — like mergers — being clear about why we think what we think is table stakes for the most fearless leaders. So what do you think? And what will it take for you to see things from a different perspective?

Edited highlights of our full length conversation. Here’s a question. What do you think and why? This week’s guests are Tom O’Keefe and Jeff King. They are two of the four partners who have just merged their respective businesses, OKRP and Barkley. Mergers are a forcing function for open-mindedness. And for doing things differently. The ability to accept the need to do things differently, to truly change perspectives, is a never ending leadership challenge. In my experience, you have to be pretty clear about your own point of view in order to embrace new ones. Worry too much about providing strong leadership, and the temptation to stick to our beliefs — even in the face of evidence or views to the contrary — becomes almost like a drug. An addiction to being right or first or better. This is perhaps the most damaging characteristic that any leader can possess. And too much of it will ensure you’re not a leader of very many or very much for very long. When we are clear about why we think what we think, when we are free of insecurity or hubris or ego, then we can assess an alternative path with an open mind. Mergers provoke the need to lead through this lens. Tom’s outline for unleashing the creative potential of the newly formed business is filled with best practice. But regardless of external forcing functions — like mergers — being clear about why we think what we think is table stakes for the most fearless leaders. So what do you think? And what will it take for you to see things from a different perspective?

Here’s a question. How vulnerable is too vulnerable? This week’s guest is Anselmo Ramos. He’s the Co-Founder and Creative Chairman of GUT, a global independent creative agency that’s headquartered in Miami, and with six other offices around the world. Months after being named the Independent Agency Network of the Year at last year’s Cannes Lions, GUT announced it was being acquired by the tech company Globant. GUT was recently named one of the most innovative companies in the world by Fast Company. For a company that is barely six years old, its story and success are remarkable. It’s also built on a very specific ethos. Businesses measure success by many metrics, and as a leader, you live with most of them every day. In most companies, seeing the leaders cry in public would be a strong indicator that things were heading in the wrong direction. Or worse. For many staff members, it would be traumatic to witness such a public display of human emotion from their leaders. This conversation with Anselmo has made me think hard about the humanity side of the leadership equation. How vulnerable is too vulnerable? The answer, of course, depends on the culture that you have created. If your culture is based on deep and enduring emotional trust, you give people the ability to show up as complex, multifaceted humans, to show up as whole beings. In a world in which Artificial Intelligence will soon be able to mimic — or more — much of what passes for ‘creative’ in inverted commas, our ability as a species to separate ourselves from the servers, will depend on whether we can unleash ‘human creativity’, that capacity which no technology can replace. Human creativity comes from the soul. And souls have feelings. How do you measure those?

Here’s a question. Are you conscious of your choices? This week’s guest is Kara Swisher. She’s the most effective and successful tech journalist of our lifetimes. She’s the host of the podcast ‘On with Kara Swisher’ and the cohost of the Pivot podcast with Scott Galloway. Over the last thirty years, she has interviewed everyone who matters in tech, multiple times. And she’s just written her third book, titled Burn Book: A Tech Love Story. In a world of white men with giant bank accounts and even bigger egos, how did this 5 feet 2 inch, self-described, liberal lesbian mother of four, end up as the most influential and insightful reporter of the technology age? As you’ll hear, Kara puts it down to curiosity, confidence, and understanding the choices available to her. Leadership is the art of unlocking the potential of others. But our success at doing that, first depends on our ability to unlock the potential in ourselves. If you’re listening to this podcast, you have choices. Given its reach around the world, some of you have more than others. But all of us, all of us, have more choices than we think. Too many times we doubt ourselves, see only the obstacles, respond only to the fear, the one that makes us believe that we don’t have the ability, the experience, the confidence, or the right to choose a different path. We let others decide our future. We wait for approval, or acceptance, or acknowledgement that we have passed some undefined, moving line test. But when we choose to take a different path - one that recognizes that life is a journey; that what we do with it depends on the decisions we make, not those that we let others make for us. When we make that choice to take a different path, then we show up differently. We start to discover that our future is waiting for us to create it. That the choices we make will determine the impact that we make and the one we leave behind. To be a leader is a choice. To make a difference is a choice. To define our own journey is a choice. So choose your future. And then create it. In Kara’s words, “be defined by that the choices you have.” It is the human equivalent of lighting the blue touch paper. And the results will light up the sky.

Edited highlights of our full length conversation. Here’s a question. Are you conscious of your choices? This week’s guest is Kara Swisher. She’s the most effective and successful tech journalist of our lifetimes. She’s the host of the podcast ‘On with Kara Swisher’ and the cohost of the Pivot podcast with Scott Galloway. Over the last thirty years, she has interviewed everyone who matters in tech, multiple times. And she’s just written her third book, titled Burn Book: A Tech Love Story. In a world of white men with giant bank accounts and even bigger egos, how did this 5 feet 2 inch, self-described, liberal lesbian mother of four, end up as the most influential and insightful reporter of the technology age? As you’ll hear, Kara puts it down to curiosity, confidence, and understanding the choices available to her. Leadership is the art of unlocking the potential of others. But our success at doing that, first depends on our ability to unlock the potential in ourselves. If you’re listening to this podcast, you have choices. Given its reach around the world, some of you have more than others. But all of us, all of us, have more choices than we think. Too many times we doubt ourselves, see only the obstacles, respond only to the fear, the one that makes us believe that we don’t have the ability, the experience, the confidence, or the right to choose a different path. We let others decide our future. We wait for approval, or acceptance, or acknowledgement that we have passed some undefined, moving line test. But when we choose to take a different path - one that recognizes that life is a journey; that what we do with it depends on the decisions we make, not those that we let others make for us. When we make that choice to take a different path, then we show up differently. We start to discover that our future is waiting for us to create it. That the choices we make will determine the impact that we make and the one we leave behind. To be a leader is a choice. To make a difference is a choice. To define our own journey is a choice. So choose your future. And then create it. In Kara’s words, “be defined by that the choices you have.” It is the human equivalent of lighting the blue touch paper. And the results will light up the sky.

This week’s guest is Avery Baker. She’s the former President and Chief Brand Officer of Tommy Hilfiger. Six months after she stepped down from her position at Tommy, we talk about her desire to empower others and why it's an essential skill to demonstrate as a leader.  We also discuss the new leadership paradigm that we have developed together for creative and innovative businesses. We call it 'Partnership Leadership'. 

Edited highlights of our full conversation. This week’s guest is Avery Baker. She’s the former President and Chief Brand Officer of Tommy Hilfiger. Six months after she stepped down from her position at Tommy, we talk about her desire to empower others and why it's an essential skill to demonstrate as a leader.  We also discuss the new leadership paradigm that we have developed together for creative and innovative businesses. We call it 'Partnership Leadership'. 

Edited highlights of our full conversation. This week’s guest is Avery Baker. She’s the former President and Chief Brand Officer of Tommy Hilfiger. Six months after she stepped down from her position at Tommy, we talk about her desire to empower others and why it's an essential skill to demonstrate as a leader.  We also discuss the new leadership paradigm that we have developed together for creative and innovative businesses. We call it 'Partnership Leadership'. 

Here’s a question. Who lit the fire in your life? This week’s guest is Dr. Jerry Gustafson. He’s Professor Emeritus of Economics at Beloit College and the Founder of the Center for Entrepreneurship in Liberal Education at Beloit, known as CELEB. Jerry was also my faculty advisor when I was an undergrad, and the person who, without question, lit the fire in my life. CELEB is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year. The difference that it has made in the lives of the students that have passed through its doors and benefited from its physical and emotional infrastructure is enormous. Beloit is a small Midwestern college with a very big heart, just like the town after which it’s named. I wound up there on the back of an edict from my father, after my repeated academic disinterest produced a string of exam results that no British university would accept. For a man who valued academic achievement, my intellectual failings were disappointing to my father. I use the word ‘disappointing’ in the British sense. The American translation came with an ultimatum. Go to Beloit or get a job. Luckily for me, Beloit fit like a glove. Even luckier, it brought Jerry Gustafson into my life. I’ve always said that by the time I graduated, Beloit had taught me two things. First, that in the grand scheme of life, I knew nothing. And second, how to find the answers to almost anything. I can think of no more valuable foundations. But there was a third lesson that I received from Beloit that I hadn’t fully appreciated until years after I graduated. The details of the story you’ll hear in my conversation with Jerry. But the headline is that there is no greater gift than having someone who sees what you’re capable of before you do. For me, Jerry was that person. He lit a fire in me that I’m happy to say burns fiercely today. Helping people doesn’t always happen in real time. Sometimes the embers that you stoke don’t fully ignite until later. But don’t let that stop you. Light fires wherever and whenever you can. If you see greatness in someone, tell them. The chances are, they haven’t yet seen in themselves what you have. And above all, as Jerry suggests, help them to start thinking, about what it is that for them, makes life really great. Be their fire starter. It’s the best job there is.

Here’s a question. What do you think needs doing? And are you doing it? This week’s episode is a re-publication of my interview with Cecile Richards from March 2020. It was the last in-person interview I recorded before the world shut down two days later. Forgive me, for a moment. I want to take you on a short journey. For those of you that don’t know her, Cecile Richards is one of the most extraordinary leaders of our time. Of any time, actually. Public service and activism are part of her DNA.  She’s perhaps best known for the 12 years she spent as the President of Planned Parenthood. Her mother — Ann Richards — shattered conventional wisdom when, as a woman and a Democrat, she was elected Governor of Texas in 1990. In the seventh grade, Cecile was taken to the principal’s office for wearing an armband in protest of the Vietnam War.  In the eighth grade, she brought food to the strikers on a picket line in her hometown of Austin. Her first job after college, was as a union organizer in New Orleans, helping hotel workers trying to get by on minimum wage. Today, she’s the co-creator of Charley, a bot that helps abortion seekers get good and accurate information on how to safely end their pregnancies. Cecile has been called “the most badass feminist EVER” and “The heroine of the resistance”.  She inspires women of all ages, in all walks of life. And she inspires many men, too. When I interviewed her in 2020, I called the episode, “The Blessed Leader”. Usually when I go back and listen to an earlier episode, my reason for the name I came up with is pretty clear. In this case, it wasn’t. She didn’t describe herself as blessed. The word blessed is not a common part of my vocabulary. And there was nothing about the conversation that suggested “blessed” was an obvious description. The world has changed since she and I last spoke, and I badly wanted to hear her thoughts on the damage to women’s rights that has taken place since 2020, as well as her views on the aftermath of COVID on society. I reached out to her a few weeks ago, but hadn’t heard anything back. Then early last week, I saw a link to an article that made my heart miss a beat.  The headline read: “Planned Parenthood’s Cecile Richards has brain cancer”, This woman is a presence, when you meet her in person. She radiates warmth and strength and determination. She is unforgettable.  Her brain cancer is incurable and has a median survival rate of 15 months. She was diagnosed six months ago. I’ve included a link to the article in the show notes and now I’m going to quote directly from the article, in which she describes learning to write and speak again at the age of 66.  “Her latest treatment is twice-weekly infusions through a clinical trial. ‘I mean, it’s like, What do I gotta do to stay alive? I’m good with it. It’s totally manageable, but these things are unpredictable. So I feel like it has helped me focus on what I want to do with the time I have. And I’m excited. I’ve been blessed.  ‘I’ve been blessed to have always had work that I cared about,” Richards continues. “So many people I’ve worked with and organized, nursing-home workers and hotel workers and janitors, they didn’t have any options. And they worked because they cared about their jobs, but they worked because they had to support a family. But I have been one of the really privileged few that could do what I thought needed doing. And so whatever comes next, I have that.’” “I have been one of the really privileged few that could do what I thought needed doing.” “I’ve been blessed.”  So let me end as I began by asking all of us, myself included, a question.  What do you think needs doing? And are you doing it?

Here’s a question. Are you waiting for someone else to give you permission? This week’s guest is Greg Hahn. He’s the Co-Founder & CCO of Mischief USA. This is Greg’s third appearance on the show. His first was two weeks after being fired by BBDO. His second was two years ago, a few days after Mischief were named Agency of the year by the Ad Age A List Awards. Last year, they were named Adweek’s Agency of the year. Towards the end of this conversation, I asked him what the experience of being fired by BBDO and the subsequent success of Mischief had allowed him to see about his life that he perhaps hadn't been aware of before. In my work, I see potential everywhere. And what I’ve come to understand is that the potential that’s hardest to see, and hardest to unlock, is in ourselves. As human beings we want to belong, to be accepted, to be loved. Recent research has suggested that it is more important to us to find our tribes than to be part of a family. You know that old saying, you can choose your friends but not your family. Apparently, that’s more important than we knew. The desire, sometimes the need to fit in can change our self perception and comes at a price. A hesitation, a reluctance, sometimes, often times, a fear of fully expressing ourselves. We find a place in the world that lets us do a lot of good things, and let’s us be a pretty good version of ourselves, and then we subtly constrain ourselves - in ways that we’re not aware of, until someone else points out that we’ve been living in a bowl of water the entire time. Sometimes, we’re able to let go of those constraints, find our voice and unlock that potential. Sometimes, it takes a dramatic, even traumatic event, like being fired, for us to look at ourselves through different eyes and start saying, “What if?”. What if we didn’t wait for someone else’s permission to uncover our own potential? What if we stopped fitting in and looked for ways to stand out? What if we expressed ourselves, fully and openly? Who might follow us and where might we lead them?

Edited highlights of our full conversation. Here’s a question. Are you waiting for someone else to give you permission? This week’s guest is Greg Hahn. He’s the Co-Founder & CCO of Mischief USA. This is Greg’s third appearance on the show. His first was two weeks after being fired by BBDO. His second was two years ago, a few days after Mischief were named Agency of the year by the Ad Age A List Awards. Last year, they were named Adweek’s Agency of the year. Towards the end of this conversation, I asked him what the experience of being fired by BBDO and the subsequent success of Mischief had allowed him to see about his life that he perhaps hadn't been aware of before. In my work, I see potential everywhere. And what I’ve come to understand is that the potential that’s hardest to see, and hardest to unlock, is in ourselves. As human beings we want to belong, to be accepted, to be loved. Recent research has suggested that it is more important to us to find our tribes than to be part of a family. You know that old saying, you can choose your friends but not your family. Apparently, that’s more important than we knew. The desire, sometimes the need to fit in can change our self perception and comes at a price. A hesitation, a reluctance, sometimes, often times, a fear of fully expressing ourselves. We find a place in the world that lets us do a lot of good things, and let’s us be a pretty good version of ourselves, and then we subtly constrain ourselves - in ways that we’re not aware of, until someone else points out that we’ve been living in a bowl of water the entire time. Sometimes, we’re able to let go of those constraints, find our voice and unlock that potential. Sometimes, it takes a dramatic, even traumatic event, like being fired, for us to look at ourselves through different eyes and start saying, “What if?”. What if we didn’t wait for someone else’s permission to uncover our own potential? What if we stopped fitting in and looked for ways to stand out? What if we expressed ourselves, fully and openly? Who might follow us and where might we lead them?

Edited highlights of our full conversation. Here’s a question. Are you waiting for someone else to give you permission? This week’s guest is Greg Hahn. He’s the Co-Founder & CCO of Mischief USA. This is Greg’s third appearance on the show. His first was two weeks after being fired by BBDO. His second was two years ago, a few days after Mischief were named Agency of the year by the Ad Age A List Awards. Last year, they were named Adweek’s Agency of the year. Towards the end of this conversation, I asked him what the experience of being fired by BBDO and the subsequent success of Mischief had allowed him to see about his life that he perhaps hadn't been aware of before. In my work, I see potential everywhere. And what I’ve come to understand is that the potential that’s hardest to see, and hardest to unlock, is in ourselves. As human beings we want to belong, to be accepted, to be loved. Recent research has suggested that it is more important to us to find our tribes than to be part of a family. You know that old saying, you can choose your friends but not your family. Apparently, that’s more important than we knew. The desire, sometimes the need to fit in can change our self perception and comes at a price. A hesitation, a reluctance, sometimes, often times, a fear of fully expressing ourselves. We find a place in the world that lets us do a lot of good things, and let’s us be a pretty good version of ourselves, and then we subtly constrain ourselves - in ways that we’re not aware of, until someone else points out that we’ve been living in a bowl of water the entire time. Sometimes, we’re able to let go of those constraints, find our voice and unlock that potential. Sometimes, it takes a dramatic, even traumatic event, like being fired, for us to look at ourselves through different eyes and start saying, “What if?”. What if we didn’t wait for someone else’s permission to uncover our own potential? What if we stopped fitting in and looked for ways to stand out? What if we expressed ourselves, fully and openly? Who might follow us and where might we lead them?

I met Alain Sylvain only once. We recorded a podcast at the very end of October in 2018.  I remembered it long after, and looking back, was conscious that my own thinking evolved as a result of our conversation. The news of his tragic death last month has had a profound impact on many people I know. I debated whether it was helpful or not to reload this conversation.  After listening to it again, I hope that it will let those of you that knew him well, add to your memory of him. And for those of us that didn’t, I hope it will help know him a little better. Life is short. I have come to believe that at the end, we can hope for three things. To be remembered. To have made a difference. And to be loved. I am grateful to have met him even briefly. I am sorry beyond words for the sorrow and the loss that his departure leaves behind for his family and those that knew him and loved him.

Here’s a question. What do you have a responsibility to? This week’s guest is Marty Baron. He’s the former editor of the Boston Globe, and the former executive editor of the Washington Post. The newsrooms under his leadership won 17 Pulitzer Prizes. At the Globe, he instigated the investigation into the sexual abuse conducted by the Catholic Church in Boston, and which was turned into the Academy Award winning movie, Spotlight.  The list of seminal stories that were reported under his watch would fill an entire podcast episode by themselves, from Elián Gonzalez, to the Snowden files, to the 2000 Supreme Court decided election to name but a few. His new book, Collision of Power: Trump, Bezos, and the Washington Post, describes his 8 year leadership journey during one of the most tumultuous times in the paper’s history.  Along the way, he has learned a staggering amount about leadership. Leadership, done well, is all about responsibility.  The trouble is that often, the definitions of leadership responsibility are too narrow and shallow. Too quickly defined and too quickly redefined when things get bumpy. When you meet a leader who sees their responsibility as clear, for whom that responsibility is deeply held, whose commitment to it is pressure tested, and for whom their definition of responsibility has withstood the fury of time, it often feels as though they are fearless. You ask them about being afraid and they shake their head. Not brashly, or boldly. But quizzically, almost as though they don’t understand the question. And when you are asked to describe that person’s leadership qualities, the words that come to the fore are integrity, self awareness, and courage. They are not words they ascribe to themselves. These are words that the rest of us use to help explain what sets them apart. But what sets them apart is not, as I have come to learn, their integrity, their self awareness, or their courage.  What sets them apart is the absolute certainty that they will do the right thing, because their leadership is not about them.  Their leadership is about something that they believe is more important than they are. Which might be the purest definition of leadership that I’ve heard so far. Judge for yourself.

Edited highlights of our full conversation. Here’s a question. What do you have a responsibility to? This week’s guest is Marty Baron. He’s the former editor of the Boston Globe, and the former executive editor of the Washington Post. The newsrooms under his leadership won 17 Pulitzer Prizes. At the Globe, he instigated the investigation into the sexual abuse conducted by the Catholic Church in Boston, and which was turned into the Academy Award winning movie, Spotlight.  The list of seminal stories that were reported under his watch would fill an entire podcast episode by themselves, from Elián Gonzalez, to the Snowden files, to the 2000 Supreme Court decided election to name but a few. His new book, Collision of Power: Trump, Bezos, and the Washington Post, describes his 8 year leadership journey during one of the most tumultuous times in the paper’s history.  Along the way, he has learned a staggering amount about leadership. Leadership, done well, is all about responsibility.  The trouble is that often, the definitions of leadership responsibility are too narrow and shallow. Too quickly defined and too quickly redefined when things get bumpy. When you meet a leader who sees their responsibility as clear, for whom that responsibility is deeply held, whose commitment to it is pressure tested, and for whom their definition of responsibility has withstood the fury of time, it often feels as though they are fearless. You ask them about being afraid and they shake their head. Not brashly, or boldly. But quizzically, almost as though they don’t understand the question. And when you are asked to describe that person’s leadership qualities, the words that come to the fore are integrity, self awareness, and courage. They are not words they ascribe to themselves. These are words that the rest of us use to help explain what sets them apart. But what sets them apart is not, as I have come to learn, their integrity, their self awareness, or their courage.  What sets them apart is the absolute certainty that they will do the right thing, because their leadership is not about them.  Their leadership is about something that they believe is more important than they are. Which might be the purest definition of leadership that I’ve heard so far. Judge for yourself.

Edited highlights of our full conversation. Here’s a question. What do you have a responsibility to? This week’s guest is Marty Baron. He’s the former editor of the Boston Globe, and the former executive editor of the Washington Post. The newsrooms under his leadership won 17 Pulitzer Prizes. At the Globe, he instigated the investigation into the sexual abuse conducted by the Catholic Church in Boston, and which was turned into the Academy Award winning movie, Spotlight.  The list of seminal stories that were reported under his watch would fill an entire podcast episode by themselves, from Elián Gonzalez, to the Snowden files, to the 2000 Supreme Court decided election to name but a few. His new book, Collision of Power: Trump, Bezos, and the Washington Post, describes his 8 year leadership journey during one of the most tumultuous times in the paper’s history.  Along the way, he has learned a staggering amount about leadership. Leadership, done well, is all about responsibility.  The trouble is that often, the definitions of leadership responsibility are too narrow and shallow. Too quickly defined and too quickly redefined when things get bumpy. When you meet a leader who sees their responsibility as clear, for whom that responsibility is deeply held, whose commitment to it is pressure tested, and for whom their definition of responsibility has withstood the fury of time, it often feels as though they are fearless. You ask them about being afraid and they shake their head. Not brashly, or boldly. But quizzically, almost as though they don’t understand the question. And when you are asked to describe that person’s leadership qualities, the words that come to the fore are integrity, self awareness, and courage. They are not words they ascribe to themselves. These are words that the rest of us use to help explain what sets them apart. But what sets them apart is not, as I have come to learn, their integrity, their self awareness, or their courage.  What sets them apart is the absolute certainty that they will do the right thing, because their leadership is not about them.  Their leadership is about something that they believe is more important than they are. Which might be the purest definition of leadership that I’ve heard so far. Judge for yourself.

Here’s a question. Can you hear yourself think? This week’s guest is DeEtta Jones. She’s the founder of one of the world’s leading EDI training and strategy consultancies. She’s seen leadership and leaders through many lenses. And she’s learned that the best of them are not necessarily the ones making the most noise. Leadership is changing in real time. I see evidence everywhere, every day. The beliefs we have grown up with about leadership - that it starts with standing in front of a group and selling them on a vision, that your success depends on your ability to put everyone else first and yourself second, that your confidence and certainty is the fuel on which the race to the future is run. There is still some truth in these. You still need to be a reference point, a compass, a constant. But if you try to do those things and be those things before you have done the quiet work of understanding who you are, before you are clear about what matters to you, before you can be honest about when (and why) you get in your own way, then you are building your leadership on quicksand. Knowing who you are and who you want to be are foundations strong enough to support not just your future, but that of anyone that matters to you.

Edited highlights of our full conversation. Here’s a question. Can you hear yourself think? This week’s guest is DeEtta Jones. She’s the founder of one of the world’s leading EDI training and strategy consultancies. She’s seen leadership and leaders through many lenses. And she’s learned that the best of them are not necessarily the ones making the most noise. Leadership is changing in real time. I see evidence everywhere, every day. The beliefs we have grown up with about leadership - that it starts with standing in front of a group and selling them on a vision, that your success depends on your ability to put everyone else first and yourself second, that your confidence and certainty is the fuel on which the race to the future is run. There is still some truth in these. You still need to be a reference point, a compass, a constant. But if you try to do those things and be those things before you have done the quiet work of understanding who you are, before you are clear about what matters to you, before you can be honest about when (and why) you get in your own way, then you are building your leadership on quicksand. Knowing who you are and who you want to be are foundations strong enough to support not just your future, but that of anyone that matters to you.