The Art of Listening

In the hustle and bustle of our daily lives, some words of advice keep coming back around: “Look after yourself”, “self-care first”... Simple, in theory. But how do we truly prioritize our well-being? What can we do to build confidence and strength, and balance out our emotions, when life challenges us? Today’s guest has long grappled with these fundamental questions. Jamie Cromer Grue is a licensed clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst with over 25 years of clinical experience. She serves as an Executive Board member at the New Orleans-Birmingham Psychoanalytic Center and on the committee of the American Psychoanalytic Association. Outside of her therapeutic practice, she is also the CEO of Windows to Wisdom, a holistic wellness learning community for women.On this episode of the Art of Listening, Jamie shares how she has embraced her intent to care in her professional and personal life. From her first steps into psychotherapy to finding a new spiritual approach to healing, Jamie has committed herself to self-care at every turn. Today, she reflects on the challenges encountered along the way and shows us how to leave a place of burnout and dissatisfaction, to find a new beginning.Tune into Eileen and Jamie’s conversation for a true lesson in self-love, independence, and strength. Chapters1 - From Business to Psychology and Psychoanalysis2 - How to find your voice and correct past behaviors3 - Exploring the benefits of holistic practices3 - Aligning mind, body, and spirit: Jamie’s personal story of spiritual discovery 5 - Committing to self-care to better heal others LinksJamie Cromer GrueWindows to WisdomEileen DunnMore from ‘The Art of Listening’ 

Cultures are dynamic and powerful forces that shape our identities and influence our perspectives on the world. They serve as bridges, effortlessly connecting the depth of our heritage with the construction of our futures. But for Asian Americans, the balance between traditional values and modern ideals poses a distinct challenge as they strive to find their place within society.Between visibility and invisibility, the pervasive presence of racism, the necessity for adaptation, and the negotiation between individuality and community… The Asian American experience is as complex as it is resilient. Today’s guest embodies this truth in more ways than one. Kris Yi, Ph.D., Psy.D. is a licensed clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst with more than 25 years of clinical experience. Throughout her career, she has dedicated her work to highlighting and raising awareness of the Asian American experience, and racial bias within psychoanalysis.  In today’s episode, Kris invites us to step into her world. She illustrates her journey from South Korea to the United States, sharing the challenges of migration, the enduring impact of cultural trauma, and the art of finding the balance between two distinct cultures. Determined to break free from bias, Kris lends her voice to the Art of Listening, to offer a fresh and often overlooked perspective that defies stereotypes.Join us as Kris boldly rewrites the narrative of the Asian American experience, carving out a unique space within the realm of psychoanalysis.Chapters1 - Juggling Korean and American cultures (4:22)2 - Anti-Asian racism and the Model Minority myth (10:41)3 - Kris’s experiences with Discrimination and Hypersexualisation (17:14)4 - Historical racism in Psychoanalysis (22:41)5 - Bringing new visibility to the Asian Perspective (26:08)LinksKris YiKris’ Journal on the Asian Perspective in PsychoanalysisEileen DunnMore from ‘The Art of Listening’ 

If you tune into this podcast every week, you know that we often start our episodes with a moment of reflection. We speak about identity, self-expression, faith, understanding, and deep moments of existential questioning. This moment of connection is what the Art of Listening is all about. It's a collection of voices dedicated to depth talk therapy and understanding, and it will be complete in a handful of episodes. In the spirit of that, this week I would like to connect with you, listeners, to hear what you think of this podcast.What aspects of this project stay with you, week after week? What doesn’t resonate, sometimes? What do you want more of? And as we draw this collection to a close, do you have a wish for where we should take this podcast next?If you feel like sharing your experiences, your thoughts, or even personal stories related to this podcast, you can leave us a review, or reach out to me via email, at dreileen@eileendunnpsyd.comLearning from your perspective is another way to celebrate the power of listening. Together, let's create even more fruitful conversations. LinksEileen DunnMore from ‘The Art of Listening’ 

Music is an art form that connects us to others, beyond language and culture. It strikes a chord that moves us both physically and emotionally. In this sense, whether we're artists or amateurs, music can be a powerful outlet and refuge for our emotions and experiences. It holds the remarkable ability to facilitate feelings, transformation, and unity. Today's guest believes that too, and draws a parallel between music and the transformative nature of the therapeutic journey.Paula Kliger is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst with 30 years of experience treating children, adults, couples, families, and groups. Her connection to music runs deep. As a young musician, she toured the world and witnessed the profound curative capabilities of music firsthand. On this episode of The Art of Listening, Paula takes us on a captivating journey at the nexus of music and psychoanalysis. Reflecting on the invaluable lessons from her time as a performer and writer, Paula recounts her discovery of the power of music in healing others and, in turn, healing herself. As she advanced in her analytic career, delving into group work, trauma, and disaster relief, Paula’s musical knowledge continued to inform her approach. Today, she shares how creating an atmosphere and setting the right tone allows us to create safe spaces that foster understanding.Join us as Paula unveils her unique insights into the music of listening. Chapters1 - Life-changing stories from Paula’s travels as a touring musician2 - Music as a universal language and self-reflection practice3 -  First professional experience in psychotherapy.4 - Bringing her expertise to trauma and disaster work5 - How Paula’s musical background informed her approach to group workLinksPaula KligerPaula’s BookPsych AssetsEileen DunnMore from ‘The Art of Listening’ 

Finding meaning and purpose is an integral part of the human experience, which is why, in psychotherapy, in religion, and in many other areas of our lives, we look for guidance. This universal need for contemplation can be thought of as spirituality. Yet, in the field of psychoanalysis, spiritual thinking is often overlooked, as it departs from traditional psychoanalytic theories. Today’s guest argues otherwise.Amelio D’Onofrio has over 35 years of clinical psychoanalytic experience and his professional journey was shaped by faith and a desire for deeper understanding. From his immigration to the United States to pursuing his studies in Psychology, he discovered that a spiritual perspective could answer his more reflective questions about the self.On this episode of The Art of Listening, Amelio delves into the integral connection between spirituality and psychoanalysis. He reflects on his own experiences with pain and suffering and describes how faith set the groundwork that allowed him to ‘emerge from the darkness’. Amelio also shares his new practices and means of spiritual discovery, by introducing his Gubbio Seminars. As the host of this retreat in Gubbio, Italy, Amelio provides psychotherapists and analysts with the opportunity to discuss pressing topics in the field. Drawing on the theme of this year's seminar, he highlights the epic story of Dante's Divine Comedy, guiding us through the poem and its connection to the self-analytic spiritual process of trauma, grief, and forgiveness.Join us as we learn from Amelio how spirituality can enhance our understanding of the human experience, offering tools for personal growth, healing, and self-discovery.Chapters1 - Amelio’s cultural upbringing and his first encounters with suffering (7:50)2 - Growing up with religion and Amelio’s relationship with faith (13:32)3 - Psychoanalysis's relationship with spirituality (16:01)4 - Ego-rational listening and generative listening (20:12)5 - Amelio’s seminars and this year's theme: Dante’s Divine Comedy (22:52)6 - The spiritual cycle of trauma, guilt, and forgiveness (28:15)LinksAmelio D’OnofrioGubbio SeminarsEileen DunnMore from ‘The Art of Listening’ 

From the first beat of our hearts to our final moments of connection, love weaves its way through every aspect of our lives, guiding and enriching us. This life force goes beyond our conventional understanding of romance. Love is also the bonds we share with our friends, the support and care we receive from our families, and the self-love and compassion we cultivate within ourselves.As natural as it can be, love is complex. Developing our capacity to both give and receive it is an achievement in its own right; and it’s another challenge to sustain meaningful relationships. Most often, these questions are the very reason we come to therapy.Enrico Gnaulati knows this to be true. As a highly experienced clinical psychologist and author with over three decades of expertise working with children, adults, and couples, he has studied the balance of patience, understanding, and compromise required to maintain deep connections.On this episode of The Art of Listening, Enrico uncovers the common thread that unifies successful and enduring relationships: the art of deep listening. Drawing inspiration from his own marital experiences and dedicated work with couples, Enrico imparts the wisdom of his latest book, ‘Flourishing Love: A Secular Guide to Lasting Intimate Relationships’. He explores how the pillars of listening, attention, and communication form intimate and lasting connection. He also shares his latest interests in therapeutic practice; his enduring labour of love.  Together, we delve into the fundamental questions of what healthy love truly looks like, and the profound growth that comes from embracing vulnerability.Chapters1 - Enrico's upbringing and trajectory to psychotherapy, from children’s to couples' work (4:24)2 - The intricate and complex dynamic therapists face within couples therapy (11:30)3 - The power of "virtues", and essential qualities to long-lasting, successful relationships (18:04)4 - The value of attention in relationships, and how to be a deep listener (25:48)5 - Enrico’s view on the importance of relationships and human connection (29:23)LinksEnrico GnaulatiEnrico’s Book ‘Flourishing Love: A Secular Guide to Lasting Intimate Relationships’Enrico’s Book ‘Saving Talk Therapy’Eileen DunnMore from ‘The Art of Listening’ 

Love and belonging are some of the fundamental human needs necessary for survival. But as profound as they are, living with others, resonating with them, and “fitting in” is a delicate balancing act. Our sense of identity is deeply influenced by the acceptance, comfort, or rejection we experience from those around us, but certain aspects of ourselves will not align comfortably with others. As psychoanalysts, we are mindful of acceptance and the foundation it provides clients to explore their thoughts, emotions, and vulnerabilities. We know that social norms of gender, sexuality, class and race are engrained deeply in our lives, and can keep us from living authentically, causing deep emotional wounds, eroding self-esteem, and hundering personal development. In the field of psychoanalysis, new voices are emerging to broaden the conversation surrounding these issues. Amongst them is Justin Shubert, a clinical psychoanalyst based in Silver Lake, Los Angeles.In this episode of The Art of Listening, Justin shares his personal journey as a queer man navigating the field of psychoanalysis – first, as a patient, and then as a clinician. Together, we talk about queer theory, identity and power, and Justin shares his unique perspective on acceptance and belonging in a field that has historically grappled with conflicting opinions around subjects such as sexuality and gender. Justin also reflects on what led him to find a supportive community within the American Psychoanalytic Association's Committee on Gender and Sexuality, and discusses his ongoing efforts to create a space of acceptance, diversity, and inclusivity within his own practice.Tune into our conversation to discover the power of acceptance and community in embracing differences. Chapters1 - Justin’s first contact with psychoanalysis: from experience, to intellect (03:55)2 - Reflecting on foundational experiences of queerness (7:25)3 - Understanding queer theory and identity (11:43)4 - Challenges and “resistance” to queerness, gender and sexuality theory in psychoanalysis (14:05)5 - Finding and building a queer-conscious community in psychoanalysis (20:06)6 - Listening with a queer approach: how Justin listens to his patients (23:08)LinksJustin ShubertSilver Lake PsychotherapyAmerican Psychoanlytic AssociationEileen DunnMore from ‘The Art of Listening’ 

The field of psychotherapy and analysis is a dynamic space that constantly evolves, and we are all determined to embrace these changes authentically. Over the past 31 years, Gloria Myers Beller and I have been sharing genuine, profoundly authentic conversations. The depth and breadth of our discussions as colleagues and true friends is a big part of what has inspired me to create The Art of Listening. As a seasoned psychotherapist, Gloria has spent over 50 years amassing wisdom in the field. As she cared for patients in a range of settings – and ultimately in her independent practice – she came to understand how pain constitutes the heart of the human experience.In this episode of The Art of Listening, Gloria guides us through her own history of therapeutic practice. She illuminates the pivotal role authenticity plays in the therapeutic setting and the healing ability of truth. Drawing from her rich experiences and her own background as an African American woman from the segregated South, Gloria has cultivated a deep understanding of suffering as a universal point of contact among human beings. It is through this understanding that she has found the path to empathy, allowing her to connect with her patients on a profound level across decades and ‘meet them where their suffering lies’. Chapters1 - Gloria’s early work in the emerging field of social work and psychotherapy2 - The evolution of the psychoanalytic work and moving into private practice3 - Understanding the benefits and limitations of private practice for psychoanalytic treatments4 - Using suffering as the universal point of contact in psychoanalysis5 - Gloria’s personal background and its influence on her approach to her work6 - Developing a practice grounded in authenticity and connection LinksGloria Myers BellerEileen DunnMore from ‘The Art of Listening’

Among the myriad of beginnings, endings, losses and changes that punctuate our lifetimes, few are as challenging as the act of bidding farewell to a long and rewarding career. Over the years, substantial time, labor, and heartfelt devotion are invested, forging identities and finding purpose. So when the familiarity, the comforting sense of routine, and the deep relationships we have nurtured come to an end, we can experience emotions reminiscent of grief and loss. But the end of a career also signifies the dawning of a new chapter, brimming with possibilities to explore untapped passions or embark on new adventures. For analysts, the transition to retirement entails discovering who they are once they have left the analyst's chair. And for Marti Peck, it was a true opportunity for reinvention. Marti began her journey in the field at the tender age of 18, commencing an illustrious career that would span over 40 years, including 30 years in private practice. Recently, Marti gracefully said her final goodbyes and retired from a distinguished career in psychoanalysis.In this episode of The Art of Listening, Marti walks us through the thoughts and feelings that accompany this profound life transition. Marti shares her wisdom on the intricate and profound relationship that therapists develop with their patients; she explores the challenges of releasing responsibility and connections. She depicts her own journey of introspection, emphasizing the vital importance of listening to oneself, discerning limitations, and recognizing individual capabilities.Join us as we discuss Marti's life long career, and explore how she continues to harness her psychoanalytic wisdom even in retirement, as the practice never truly ends.Chapters1 - How Marti approached her retirement, and the emotions that follow change2 - The responsibility therapists feel for their patients3 - Marti’s life after retirement, and the separation of personal and professional identity4 - Viewing retirement as a new beginningLinksMarti PeckMarti Peck on LinkedInMarti’s Book ‘So Hard to Die’Eileen DunnMore from ‘The Art of Listening’ 

We are wishing all Art of Listening listeners a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year as we return with more new episodes in 2024. Stay tuned! 

What does it mean to truly know who you are? How do you represent you to you? As we navigate our lives, we find ourselves constructing an identity through expression; assembling a mosaic of behaviors, interests, and beliefs. These characteristics, Johanna Arenaza refers to as 'body, heart and soul.’ Johanna is a practicing psychoanalyst, an award-winning and internationally competitive dancer. Between her home country of Spain and her adopted home in the US, she has developed her psychoanalytic practice while pursuing her own journey of self-discovery. In this episode of The Art of Listening, Johanna shares how an early passion for the art of dance led her into a cycle of burnout, questioning her sense of self. After pivoting and training as a Psychoanalyst, Johanna found a new facet of her identity where she could exercise her intelligence and mental resilience. But with each new discovery, Johanna felt unrest in the separateness of all the parts of herself, yearning for a sense of unity. With Johanna today, we uncover how expression can lead us to believe that we are firmly represented; and that this newfound identity can be as restrictive as it is liberating. Through her lifelong journey, Johanna will show us that a true sense of who we are comes from accepting our shifting nature. Walking us through what it means to connect with others, and with ourselves, she reveals that cultivating self-reflection and awareness will land us to a sense of true harmony.So join us in discussion with Johanna Arenaza, as we explore what it means to listen in, and speak our inner truths with body, mind, heart, and soul.Chapters1 - Dance as an instrument for communication and bodily connection (4:00)2 - Dance burnout, and exploring intellectual agility through Psychology (7:41)3 - Silence as a form of communication (13:14)4 - Introspective listening and reflection through meditation (23:23)5 - How Johanna found self-fulfillment through mental, physical, and spiritual harmony (29:06)LinksJohanna ArenazaEileen DunnMore from ‘The Art of Listening’ 

Knowing others is a fundamental part of our human experience... But it is also an impossible task. And while empathy brings us closer to understanding this ‘otherness’, it still maintains a quality of difference –that those we empathize with are inherently distinct from ourselves. But perhaps there is a space within our minds where we can understand each other simply as we are, or once were, before we shaped our own journeys – as equals, as solely human. This place, where all humanity is shared, is what Koichi Togashi refers to as 'The Psychoanalytic Zero'. In this episode of The Art of Listening, Koichi recalls his journey into the field of Psychoanalysis. He tells us how he learned to balance Eastern and Western perspectives between Japan, his native country, and New York, his adopted city. Koichi also describes how his own quest for acceptance and understanding fueled his need to create his own theory. Together, we learn how the ‘Psychoanalytic Zero’ considers the complexities of division and difference while uncovering the underlying threads that bind us all together in the tapestry of the universe.Chapters1 - Finding balance between Eastern and Western practices (4:07)2 - The relationship between trauma, empathy and the Psychoanalytic Zero (13:35)3 - In practice: the Psychoanalytic Zero as a philosophy (18:30)4 - Difference in practice and approaches to trauma in Japan (22:22)5 - Makoto: the potential of letting go (28:25)LinksKoichi TogashiKoichi’s BooksEileen DunnMore from ‘The Art of Listening’ 

The weight of grief descends upon us all at some point in life. It arises from loss, whether of people or parts of ourselves we can no longer recognize. When it comes to the unbearableness of grief, our primal instincts may be to swallow the feelings and push forward. But it is only when we allow the feelings of mourning and embrace what loss means that we can unmask the transformative nature it holds.Through his extensive body of work teaching philosophy, practicing psychoanalysis, and publishing a series of books on the topic, Jonathan Lear has taken all he has come to know and study about grief and used it to analyze his own deeply personal confrontation with the mourning process.In this episode of the Art of Listening, Jonathan will take us on a historical journey from ancient times to modern day as he discusses his studies that tie together the practices of philosophy and psychoanalysis, the importance of dialogue in thoughtful discovery.  We’ll also learn how these studies provided Jonathan with the foundation to form his own philosophical findings on the process of grief and mourning.Chapters1 - Jonathan’s international philosophy studies (3:24)2 - How philosophy led Jonathan to psychoanalysis (6:19)3 - Where ancient philosophy and modern psychoanalysis intersect (8:59)4 - The role narratives play in the psychoanalytic setting (14:01)5 - Grief and mourning, and maintaining hope in human life (25:22)LinksJonathan LearJonathan’s BooksThe Art of ListeningEileendunnpsyd.com

Throughout our lives, in our quest for meaning, we often seek out intellectual pursuits, believing that the more we know, the more we will be able to understand ourselves and the world around us. While education equips us with theoretical knowledge, an excessive emphasis on intellectualism can overshadow the profound growth opportunities pure human connection is capable of, which often transcends the confines of logic. Similarly, we can only get so far analyzing our own internal thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. Genuine self-understanding requires more than just introspection. During his professional life, Dan Perlitz came to realize that while business ventures and academia benefitted personal growth, they still couldn’t satisfy his desire for true self-understanding.  Dan is a physician, a former family doctor and real estate developer, and now a practicing Self-Psychological psychoanalyst in full-time practice in Toronto, Canada. Through his own experience with therapy, he realized the one crucial element missing in his search for meaning: an unbiased perspective. In this episode of the Art of Listening, Dan will tell us about how his unwavering commitment to find personal meaning led him to therapy, and to becoming a therapist after years in the business sector. He’ll explain the value an unbiased vantage point offers, and how human-to-human connection is the catalyst necessary to ultimately unleash our true potential for self-discovery and growth.Chapters1 - Dan’s transition from Business to Psychology (3:10)2 - Over-Intellectualism in therapeutic practice (9:11)3 - How Dan found a greater meaning through Psychology (13:40)4 - Why Empathy is not value-neutral (22:29)LinksDan PerlitzDan’s Academic JournalsEileen Dunn’s Website

Nancy McWilliams is renowned for her immense contributions to the field of Psychotherapy and Psychoanalysis. Her career, which spans six decades, has included roles in teaching, private practice, writing, and speaking. Of the many, Dr. McWilliams’ awards and achievements include the Gradiva prize, the Erikson Scholar award, and leadership, scholarship, and international academic excellence awards from Division 39 of the American Psychological Association. Clinicians of every theoretical persuasion appreciate her ability to translate complex theory, implications of research, and even the human dynamics between different subgroups within the profession defined most broadly into simply human and accessible language.  In this brief and personal moment we share with Nancy in this episode, she touches on a nuance of listening to understand and be understood that doesn’t receive much attention.  We seek to understand as clinicians dedicated to healing.  We all yearn to be understood in the most personal and authentic way.  But what people need and appreciate more than perfect understanding is to experience the effort – the ‘intent’ – to be understood.  That’s what makes the space between us as fellow humans work.  That’s what makes it count.  As Nancy said, reiterating the fruits of much research, the outcome of work in therapy is determined by the fit and the relationship between speaker and listener, therapist and patient.In this episode of The Art of Listening, Nancy will tell us how the power of the therapeutic process hinges on listening with the intent to understand, listening beyond reacting, listening for the meaning, the wisdom there to be received – for speaker and listener, patient and therapist.Chapters1 - The scientific benefits of therapeutic practice (3:59)2 - The difficulty of listening and processing (5:23)3 -  How Nancy’s mother taught her how to listen (7:52)4 - The difference between knowledge and wisdom (12:23)5 - Where psychotherapy and academia do and don’t intersect (16:19)LinksNancy McWilliamsNancy’s Books Eileen Dunn’s Website

Academia is a critical part of any scientific or medical practice. It provides the necessary knowledge, skills, and research findings that form the foundation of these fields. But in a field like talk therapy, which relies on nuance and circumstance, academia also has its limitations. On the other hand, taking an approach to the practice which blends personal feelings, experiences, and biases alone can be equally as dangerous to patients and their providers. The challenge of striking this balance is something that Dhwani Shah has embraced with unwavering determination throughout his journey in the field. Dhwani is the author of ‘The Analyst’s Torment: Unbearable Mental States in Countertransference’, a book which tackles and demystifies this complex dynamic of ‘self’ within the patient-therapist relationship. From his life experience to his studies and private practice, Dhwani’s story epitomizes this delicate balance between knowledge and authenticity, –between simply knowing and truly being.In this episode of the Art of Listening, Dhwani will share with us his journey in the art of listening. We will learn how he navigated the challenges of integrating personal experiences and biases while maintaining professional boundaries, and tell us how these situations have helped him improve as a listener. Chapters1 - Dhwani's life at home, and experience as an Immigrant in the US (3:13)2 - How Dhwani’s perspective of the field changed over time (7:56)3 - Overcoming human barriers (11:30)4 - How to show true, authentic empathy (20:30)5 - Authentic and inauthentic listening practices (26:42)6 - Dhwani's current studies (29:14)LinksDhwani ShahDhwani’s book ‘The Analyst’s Torment: Unbearable Mental States in CountertransferenceEileen Dunn’s Website

On the surface, today’s communication technology may appear as a utopia for human connection. We can message and video call anyone we want at any time we choose, yet in order to embrace these means of communication, true and meaningful human connection must be sacrificed.The value of genuine human-to-human relationships and interactions has never been more important. Particularly in the therapeutic space, where quick-fix technology has begun masquerading as a solution to our growing disconnect.Thankfully, Linda Michaels is on a mission to bring the humanity back into modern therapy. Linda is a co-founder of the nonprofit organization Psychotherapy Action Network (PsiAN) which advocates for awareness and policy to bring talk therapy to as many people as possible.In this episode of The Art of Listening, she shares her personal journey abroad and in the business world, which led her to make a significant shift into the field of psychology. Through her experiences, she will illustrate how she discovered the importance of human connection and why she believes it is a critical factor in the realm of mental health.We’ll also learn about how PsiAN is using research and history to defend psychotherapy’s unique proven ability to provide deep insights, healing, and personal growth– something that cannot be provided or done alone. Chapters1 - Linda’s experience and business, and the search for human connection (3:57)2 - Finding self-fulfillment in psychology (11:45)3 - The origin of the Psychotherapy Action Network (15:00)4 - PsiAN's research findings on human connection (19:59)5 - Issues with modern tech “quick fixes” in therapy (25:21)6 - Self-investment and trusting the therapy process (30:06)7 - PsiAN's current initiatives (31:44)8 - Eileen’s Monologue: “The Action of the Cause” (33:33)LinksLinda MichaelsPsychotherapy Action NetworkLinda Michaels and Santiago Delboy's Psycohanalytic Journal Eileen Dunn’s Website

Join us on our journey into the space between speaker and listener.