Rock That Doesn't Roll: The Story of Christian Music

In 1985 the Contemporary Christian Music industry reached a cultural height it would never regain. That's the basic case that Tim Dillinger has been making lately in his Substack, God's Music Is My Life. With artists like Amy Grant, Leslie Phillips, Sheila Walsh, Tramaine Hawkins and Rez Band pushing the boundaries of CCM from the inside, and mainstream acts like Maria Muldour and Mr. Mister pushing into CCM from the outside, 1985 was a year like no other, according to Tim. Would you believe that the downfall of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker's PTL empire in 1987 would reshape the Christian landscape for the worse?---Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off.Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount)Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdrIf you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

Katie Thornton loves radio. Her series The Divided Dial has delved into conservative talk radio and shortwave. It won a 2023 Peabody Award. And her piece for Rolling Stone, "Jesus Take The Dial" goes in depth on CCM radio giant K-LOVE's operations. We talk with Thornton about how K-LOVE's parent company has used its non-profit status to build a broadcasting behemoth and the downstream effects that has on American culture. We also discuss the Christian music she actually enjoys, her contrarian take on Bob Dylan and how K-LOVE compares to Salem Media Group, her main subject in season one of The Divided Dial. ---Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off.Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount)Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdrIf you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

Ozzy Osbourne died in July. He was memorialized as the "Prince of Darkness" and was a key figure during the Satanic Panic of the 1980s. But our guest Jason P Woodbury points out that Osbourne's genius was in marrying heaven and hell- and if you listen closely, he's not as different from Christian rock as you might assume. Jason P Woodbury is an editor of Aquarium Drunkard and hosts their podcast, Transmissions. He also makes music as JPW.---Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off.Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount)Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdrIf you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

Larry Norman thought another world was possible. Christians would make daring, artistic rock music. Mainstream musicians would make earnestly explore their spirituality in popular songs. He started a record label and an artist management company to make this a reality. And though he could see glimpses of this world, it was fully realized. Gregory Alan Thornbury is our guest this week- in an interview recorded in 2022. He's Norman's biographer and an "erstwhile theologian" as he puts it. His 2018 book, Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?: Larry Norman and the Perils of Christian Rock is a very thorough accounting of this singular artist. This episode highlights some of those "perils" referenced in the subtitle. This is part two of the interview. Topics covered in this segment include the reaction of the mainstream rock industry to Larry Norman, Bob Dylan's born again era, the lasting effect of the Christian contemporary music industry on America and where we see this energy today.---Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off.Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount)Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdrIf you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

Larry Norman is widely recognized as the first Christian rock star. Recording with mainstream studio musicians The Wrecking Crew and later sharing a label with The Velvet Underground, Norman began his career singing explicitly about the values of evangelical Christianity on mainstream releases that didn't exactly light up the charts. But when Christian music publishers licensed his albums to sell in bookstores, sales went through the roof and the Christian Contemporary Music market was born. Plus he wrote the song "The Rock That Doesn't Roll."Gregory Alan Thornbury is our guest this week- in an interview recorded in 2022. He's Norman's biographer and an "erstwhile theologian" as he puts it. His 2018 book, Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?: Larry Norman and the Perils of Christian Rock is a very thorough accounting of this singular artist. This interview is being presented in two parts. This is part one, covering Norman's early life, views on race, the origins of his "One Way" symbol, his fall from favor with the Christian industry and his free-spirited wife, Pamela Ahlquist.---Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off.Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app)Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdrIf you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

Nathan Evans Fox is a country music artist, but he has a deep background with Christian music. In his viral hit single "Hillbilly Hymn" he brings the biblical concept of jubilee into the rural gas station. Find more of Nathan's music here and look for his podcast "Yallidarity Social Club" soon. ---Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off.Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app)Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdrIf you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

Derek Webb was part of a remarkable success story with Caedmon's Call in the late '90s. But the more success he witnessed, the less he could keep quiet. Now in his solo career he stands confidently alongside the marginalized, even attending the Dove Awards in a dress. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app)Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdrIf you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

In season two of Shiny Happy People, the Amazon Prime Original docu-series turns its focus to Teen Mania Ministries, the organization that made Acquire The Fire stadium events. These events are described in the series as "youth group Coachella." But Christian music was just the tip of the iceberg with Teen Mania. To unpack the series, Andrew is joined by Krispin Mayfield, a fellow podcaster and licensed therapist who specializes in helping people with religious trauma. Learn more about Krispin at krispinmayfield.com and his current podcast project, Strongwilled, at Substack: strongwilled.substack.comDo you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app)Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdrIf you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

Glenn Kaiser has had a huge influence on Christian music as a musician, a festival co-founder and an outspoken thought leader. He was our top guest choice for our live taping in January of 2025 in Chicago.While Glenn Kaiser is a singular figure in the world of Christian music, we are aware that Jesus People USA is a triggering topic for some listeners. For a more thorough examination of Jesus People USA check out the book Grey Sabbath or for the perspective of abuse survivors from JPUSA, the film No Place To Call Home.This interview does not go into the topic of abuse, but we gave Glenn the opportunity to address it via email. He said,"The sad reality is sins of abuse, etc. happen and how to best respond to such regardless is a long work that has progressed for us. Over the past decade we've established several professional safeguards to ensure the safety of children and policies to address it. All in leadership and most in the wider fellowship have completed courses re. abuse and are mandated reporters."Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app)Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdrIf you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

Mason Mennenga is really good at social media. You've probably seen his posts about evangelical culture, Christian music or VeggieTales. But he does a lot more than just that. He hosts two podcasts: A People's Theology and The BlackSheep Podcast. He has a YouTube channel. He writes academic papers on music. And he works in the admissions office of a seminary. His social media bio was once "Skillet's Wario" and last year he interviewed the lead singer of Skillet. We were excited to talk with the internet's crass youth pastor earlier this year.   Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app)Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdrIf you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

In 1998 it seemed like Josh Caterer had it made. His band, Smoking Popes, had three critically acclaimed albums out. They were signed to Capitol Records. He had married his high school sweetheart. But Josh had also just become a Christian and couldn't reconcile his rock band life with his new evangelical life. So he quit the band. On today's episode hosts Andrew Gill and Dr. Leah Payne talk with Josh Caterer about that decision, how the band got back together, their new album, Lovely Stuff, and their new single, "Allegiance." Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app)Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdrIf you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

In mid-June NPR published a story with the headline "Christian music is experiencing a pop breakthrough." As podcasters covering the Christian music industry, we usually think it reached it's zenith of popularity in the early 2000s, so this article caught our attention. To dig deeper into the topic, we invited the article's author, Emma Madden, on the podcast. Our chat was wide ranging and gets into the influence of worship music on new Christian pop music, differences in religious culture in the UK versus the US, the role of social media in spreading singles by Brandon Lake and Forrest Frank, the conservative political environment in the US and the changing standards of personal behavior expected of Christian pop stars. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app)If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

This week on the show it's legends only: Russ Taff and Steve Taylor. They collaborated on Russ' new album, "Cover Story," but both have long and distinctive careers in the Christian music industry. Russ Taff became lead singer of The Imperials in 1976, started his solo career in 1983, earning two Grammys and many Dove awards. He was one of the industry's biggest solo male stars, but his most beloved songs are Pentecostal worship songs that connect all the way back to his childhood. Over the years he has dealt with alcoholism off and on, though he is beloved among his peers in the industry. Steve Taylor started his career as a new wave Randy Newman type, calling out hypocrisy in the evangelical church, while also becoming an "underground" hero to Christian music fans. In the early 1990s he formed the band Chagall Guevara, deepening the devotion of his alternative fandom. In 1997 he became a label boss when he launched Squint Entertainment, which signed Sixpence None The Richer and released the massive hit single, "Kiss Me."Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app)If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

Michael Tait, most recently lead singer of The Newsboys and also well known as one third of DC Talk, confessed to accusations of sexual assault and drug abuse on June 10, 2025. This came after deeply reported investigations into his behavior were published first by The Roys Report and then by The Guardian. The day before this news broke, whistleblowers accused the worship leader best known for right wing political agitation, Sean Feucht, of financial misappropriation and spiritually coercive leadership tactics. Hosts Leah Payne and Andrew Gill discuss the two scandals and what each of these figures mean in the context of American evangelicalism. They're joined by Kelsey Kramer McGinnis, a musicologist and worship correspondent for Christianity Today. Her Substack piece on both men is very insightful.  Additional reading:Hayley Williams on Michael TaitKelsey's book "The Myth of Good Christian Parenting"Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app)You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

If there's one music genre lampooned more than Christian rock, it might just be ska. And Christian ska? Expect next level ridicule. But a lovable band of misfits from Denver, Colorado managed to do something that might seem unthinkable: combine two maligned genres and become a cultural phenomenon with an enduring cult following. On the season two finale of Rock that Doesn't Roll, music journalist Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) follow the unlikely rise of Five Iron Frenzy, with insight from Leanor Ortega Till, aka "Jeff the Girl," aka the saxophonist from one of the best-loved bands in the Christian rock universe.Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If you want more seasons of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, you can support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdrYou can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

Picture this. It's 1986. The Cold War is at a fever pitch. The whole world is locked into a conflict between the Forces of Freedom, and the Commies... at least that's how it felt to 80s kids. But the Cold War wasn't the only threat facing American society. Many feared that a much more sinister enemy lurking in the shadows: the devil himself. During the so-called satanic panic, parents worried that their kids would get caught by the Lord of Darkness, and rock - specifically heavy metal from notoriously debauched bands like Motley Crüe - was a big threat. What was an evangelical teen metal fan to do when the whole genre was tainted by Beelzebub? You fight fire with fire, and send Satan straight to hell with the legendary band Stryper. With insight from Stryper's Michael Sweet, and White Lion's Mike Tramp, music journalist Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) follow the epic battle for the soul of Stryper, the undisputed kings of 1980s Christian Metal who wanted to fight Satan on his home turf - the raucous world of mainstream metal. Along the way, they found that the battle lines between demons and angels can get a bit blurry. How do you win the war when you aren't exactly sure who is friend or foe? Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If you want more seasons of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, you can support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdrYou can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

How do you make fake Contemporary Christian Music? Creating fictional Christian music that feels authentic without crossing the line into parody or pastiche is a tricky artistic challenge. But we found the creators up to the task. Joseph Stephens, composer for HBO's The Righteous Gemstones, a crime-comedy about a family of musical televangelists, and composer Daniel Smith (Danielson) and filmmaker Chris White of Electric Jesus, an independent film about an aspiring 80s Christian metal band, pay homage to Christian music makers of the past and create catchy Christian music that's feels and sounds an awful lot like the real thing. On this episode of Rock that Doesn't Roll, music journalist Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music), immerse themselves in the Southern Gospel strains of The Righteous Gemstones and glam-band anthems of Electric Jesus, and get a behind-the-scenes look at the artistry, craftsmanship, and heart involved in creating convincing fake CCM songs for the screen.Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If you want more seasons of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, you can support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdrYou can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

What happened to the kids raised during the peak era of Christian rock? For insight into the state of Christian rock's late 1990s-early aughts evangelicalism you need not look any further than members of DC Talk, the pinnacle of youth group music. Their trajectory as artists and public figures roughly maps on to the trajectories of the millions of teens raised in American evangelicalism. In this episode,  journalist and producer Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions) surprises historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) with a fan-made quiz that asks: are you a Toby Mac, a Michael Tait, or a Kevin Max? Together with two Christian rock aficionados, journalist Jason Kirk (author of Hell Is a World Without You) and comedian Kevin T. Porter (co-host of Good Christian Fun), Rock That Doesn't Roll explores the aftermath of the peak youth group band era.Take the quiz for yourself!Listen to the Hell Is a World Without You playlist on Spotify.Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If you want more seasons of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, you can support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdrYou can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

Purity culture wasn’t just for youth group “purity girls.” “Purity bros” were also a part of the project! No one knows that more than Joshua Harris, a CCM fan who helped turn purity culture into an extreme sport. Together with his friend, Christian music superstar Rebecca St. James, they created media that inspired a generation of evangelicals to say no to sex outside of marriage, but also to things like dating, kissing, holding hands, and a lot of other things. In this episode, journalist and producer Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) follow the story of Josh Harris, one-time icon of purity culture. Josh found that the X-games of evangelicalism included the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat, and eventually, a life beyond the world of purity bros and purity girls.  Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.RSVP for our virtual event June 11th at 6pm Central time. If you want more seasons of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, you can support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdrYou can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.

In 2001, teen singing sensation Nikki Leonti was on her way to a promising Christian music career. She had two hit CCM records, and - as a pop princess who swore to refrain from premarital sex - the support of big evangelical media organizations like James Dobson’s Focus on the Family. But then, at age 18, the “purity girl” Leonti announced she was pregnant, and lost it all. With insight from author and podcaster Devi Abraham, journalist and producer Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) explore how Christian music purity icons like Nikki Leonti, along with their fans, walked the tightrope of purity culture, lost their balance, and learned to put their lives back together again after they fell.   Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.If you want more seasons of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, you can support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdrYou can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.comSign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.Buy RTDR merch here.