Refactoring Podcast

Today's guest is Birgitta Böckeler!Birgitta is is a distinguished engineer and global lead for AI-assisted software delivery at ThoughtWorks. Her full-time work is to figure out how engineering teams can make the most out of AI.With Birgitta, we talked about her favorite workflows, how she uses AI in the IDE, in the terminal or in a genetic mode. We discussed AI impact on productivity and what the best teams are getting right, which others are not. And finally, we talked about how AI impacts both junior and senior engineers and how we can get the best out of both skeptics and optimists.(01:27) Introduction(04:58) A day in the work of data(11:04) Large and smalls change sets(15:57) The strength of Cloud Code(18:35) Using AI tools in ThoughtWorks(21:41) Figuring AI productive value(27:24) Getting the most out of AI(30:10) AI assistance in large code bases(32:21) Good for humans = Good for AI(39:10) AI and documentation(41:49) Software engineer role in AI landscape(48:24) Junior engineers and learning—This episode is brought to you by Augment Code! Augment Code is the only AI engineering platform built for real engineering teams.Learn more at augmentcode.com!—You can also find this at:• 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm• 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw• 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Antonia Scheidel!Antonia is Director of Engineering at Duolingo, where she made the whole career progression, starting as a simple intern 12 years ago. Antonia is an expert at designing good, automated processes for your team. We discuss how to create good automation to avoid people doing glue work, how not to become a bottleneck as a manager, and how to make the team own the process and repair it when needed.(01:25) Introduction(02:02) Antonia's journey into tech(03:34) Antonia's career in Duolingo(06:55) From engineering to management(10:19) Good processing and notes(14:18) Fixing the process and team alignment(18:06) The burden of asking(23:08) Invisible work and visible improvements(27:55) Automation trade-offs(33:14) Responsibilities in estabilished processes(37:24) How to do notifications right(49:09) Automation for the sake of relationships(54:33) The "usual suspects" of management—This episode is brought to you by Augment Code! Augment Code is the only AI engineering platform built for real engineering teams.Learn more at augmentcode.com!—You can also find this at:• 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm• 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw• 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Adam Tornhill! Adam is the author of the popular book Your Code as a Crime Scene, and he's the founder of Code Scene. With Adam, we discussed his unique insights about technical debt and code quality, which come from his study of forensic psychology. We explored how static analysis is not enough to understand code health and why you need to look into version control history to understand hotspots, change distribution and bus factor. And finally, we inevitably talked about AI and how it changes, or maybe does not change, how we should write code.(01:23) Introduction(02:25) Adam's journey into tech(05:58) The crime scene metaphor(08:27) Version control history(10:22) A natural law of software(14:03) Code Red(15:56) Assessing good code health(22:31) Distribution of impact and the bus factor(25:33) Reducing bus factor(29:57) Reassessing knowledge(32:25) The entropy of code bases(34:53) AI in code analysis(39:44) The impact of AI coding(41:58) Preventing technical debt(44:13) The actual developer tool space(46:21) Code data and team ceremonies—This episode is brought to you by Augment Code! Augment Code is the only AI engineering platform built for real engineering teams.Learn more at augmentcode.com!—You can also find this at:• 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm• 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw• 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Meri Williams, who is the CTO of Pleo and the host of LeadDev conferences for more than 10 years. With Meri, we started by talking about diversity, why it is such a controversial topic, why diverse teams make for stronger teams, and what are the mistakes engineering leaders should avoid. Then we took from her experience with Lead Dev to explore what makes for a good talk, and what Meri looks for when she selects the best ones.And finally, we explored how AI is going to change how we develop engineers and grow junior co-workers.(01:19) Introduction(02:04) Meri's journey into tech(07:29) Conferences, meetups and LeadDev(10:14) Recurring issues in engineering leadership(12:21) Why diversity matters(15:04) A proper diverse environment(22:52) How to create a truly memorable talk(26:25) LeadDev and conferences(28:53) Speaking on stage(30:50) Speaking as a benefit for your career(33:59) Junior engineers in the age of AI(39:37) Is AI a turning point?(44:44) Seniors engineers and AI(46:31) Guiding junior engineers—This episode is brought to you by Augment Code! Augment Code is the only AI engineering platform built for real engineering teams.Learn more at augmentcode.com!—You can also find this at:• 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm• 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw• 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Annie Duke, who is a former world-class professional poker player and one of the world's top experts on decision-making.She's a bestseller author and coach of many tech founders and teams.With Annie we talked about her journey from studying decision science to becoming a top poker player and back to decision-making. We explored how to make good decisions under uncertainty, alone and in a team. And we particularly focused on quitting decisions, what maked for a good versus a bad quit and why we are so bad at recognizing those.00:01:31 Introduction00:03:45 From poker to decision-making00:08:30 Sponsor00:10:07 Poker and the definition of "resulting"00:16:42 Feedback loops and decision-making00:21:59 Successful but not hungry00:26:14 A good decision-making process00:35:24 Qualifying the market00:38:17 Team decision-making00:47:46 Quitting00:52:43 Make quitting easier01:08:43 Kill criteria—This episode is brought to you by Unblocked! Unblocked brings all the context about your codebase together, so your team gets expert-level answers, no matter where they’re working.Learn more at getunblocked.com!—You can also find this at:• 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm• 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw• 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Maude Lemaire, who is a principal engineer at GitHub and author of the book, "Refactoring at Scale."With Maude, we talked about her journey in tech, from Rent the Runway to joining Slack and leading its performance engineering team to joining GitHub as a principal engineer. And then we discussed what it means to do refactoring at scale, how to do it right, how to bring people on board, and what are the biggest mistakes you should avoid.00:01:06 Introduction00:02:05 Maude's journey in tech00:08:23 Sponsor00:09:34 Rent a Runway00:12:56 Joining Slack00:15:54 Approaching GitHub00:22:04 Changing company00:26:00 Onboarding in a big tech00:33:02 From data center to cloud00:38:22 A team for a purpose00:49:07 The biggest mistakes in large scale refactoring00:54:34 One big mistake00:57:58 Testing in production01:03:16 Test production: Big tech vs startup—This episode is brought to you by Swarmia! The engineering intelligence platform that serves some of the best software companies in the world.You can get 20% off by booking a demo at swarmia.com/refactoring!—You can also find this at:• 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm• 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw• 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Kevin Smith, who is co-founder of Snipd, one of the world's most popular podcast apps.With Kevin, we talked about his journey in tech, starting from quantitative finance and then running an AI team in a high-growth startup up to actually founding one with Snipd. Then we segued into talking about Snipd itself and what are the technical challenges of working with AI models all the time. And finally, we discussed the future of learning, what are Kevin's favorite podcasts, what makes them good, and how AI enables personalized learning at scale.01:26 Introduction01:45 Kevin's journey in tech04:18 AI giant leaps07:38 Sponsor08:50 Kevin's transition to founder16:30 What is Snipd?18:20 On AI models21:25 Snipd technical challenges29:49 How to improve quality in AI output31:30 AI in team management and dev processes34:19 AI coding enhancements38:05 Learning with modern tools42:50 Personalize learning with AI45:51 Kevin's favourite podcasts47:58 What makes a good podcast good?—This episode is brought to you by Swarmia! The engineering intelligence platform that serves some of the best software companies in the world.You can get 20% off by booking a demo at swarmia.com/refactoring!—You can also find this at:• 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm• 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw• 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Dennis Pilarinos, who is founder and CEO of Unblocked. With Dennis, we talked about his journey in tech, which is just incredible, starting from director roles at Microsoft and Amazon, then founding BuddyBuild and later selling it to Apple, and eventually to these days where he founded Unblocked. And later we talked about Unblocked itself, which is one of the few developer AI tools that is specifically not about coding.So we talked about what problem it solves and the hardest tech challenges that the team has to work with.And finally, we discussed the future of DevTools, because Dennis has founded not one, but two companies about it. And this is a time of big transformation, with MCP, AI agents and more.01:48 Introduction02:33 Dennis' journey in tech06:11 Sponsor07:48 Adapting big tech knowledge15:31 Adding context to AI15:29 Managing humans and chaos25:03 AI and hallucination issue27:14 The tipping point of evolution28:33 The future of developer workflow34:25 Increase documentation to increase context33:43 AI: a future without layers36:53 Setting up a new dev team—This episode is brought to you by Swarmia! The engineering intelligence platform that serves some of the best software companies in the world.You can get 20% off by booking a demo at swarmia.com/refactoring!—You can also find this at:• 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm• 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw• 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Ori Keren, who is CEO and co-founder of LinearB and has more than 25 years of experience in the industry, especially in developer experience and productivity.With Ori, we talked about how AI is infiltrating all the stages of the development process, from coding to testing to code reviews. We discussed  how AI is already restructuring teams and how engineering leaders can drive adoption by combining culture, small wins and full moon shots.01:07 Introduction01:59 Development productivity in 202508:29 Code creation process and AI10:46 Coding and bottlenecks15:05 Cognitive unload using AI16:48 The journey of AI adoption21:50 AI native environment24:57 How teams are changing28:35 More AI = More development30:40 The skeptcisim about coding with AI33:50 Removing the toil from coding35:31 AI help outside coding41:50 How to integrate AI in a company44:38 Go with the (AI) flow45:34 Education in prompting—You can also find this at:• Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw• Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Abi Noda, the CEO and founder of DX, one of the leading engineering intelligence platforms.With Abi, we talked about measuring developer experience. We started with the early days of Accelerate and why we feel like most people got the book wrong. And then we continued to present days and how research focuses on driving great developer experience. And finally, we couldn't avoid talking about AI and why it seems to be a game changer for entrepreneurs, but not so much for teams yet.01:23 Introduction02:45 Abi's journey in tech08:19 The four key metrics10:41 Metrics' reliability13:41 Diagnostic metrics16:06 A metric analogy18:23 Find productivy metrics drive22:03 What makes a developer experience good?29:44 The importance of comparison31:53 Common issues in developer experience34:55 Are meetings bad?36:16 AI in development process—This episode is brought to you by https://sleuth.io—You can also find this at:• 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm• 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw• 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Dan Shipper!Dan is the CEO and founder of Every, which is one of the world's most popular publications, writing about AI and our relationship with technology. And Dan is one of my heroes. His newsletter was the first I ever paid for on Substack, and single-handedly inspired me to start Refactoring. But he doesn't know. I will tell him during the interview and you will see what he says. So with Dan, we'll talk about the boundaries blurring between product development and content creation, the role of generalists, entrepreneurs, and how his team builds software with AI. And spoiler alert, AI writes 90% of their code.03:08 Introduction06:42 Every and Dan's journey in tech12:56 From writer to CEO16:20 The importance of delegating18:01 What you want vs what people want21:06 Stick to yourself24:38 Playing the long game27:02 AI and content creation31:05 Approaching the use of AI36:29 Finding new workflows with AI39:03 More an AI generated code40:35 A new skillset for engineers42:44 More on the new engineering role44:45 The next AI assisted leaps—This episode is brought to you by https://workos.com—You can also find this at:- 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm- 📱 YouTube: https://youtu.be/HgKAg1rtQoE—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Marco Trombetti!Marco is the CEO and founder of Translated, one of the largest translation companies in the world, powering translations for the likes of Airbnb, Uber, Skyscanner, and more.Translated is also an AI pioneer. It has developed its own models for more than 20 years and has recently released the most advanced translation LLM in the world.With Marco, we talked about the future of AI, combining AI and human work and the role of regulation. This is also the first interview we ever did in person. But as you will see and hear, I was recovering from a bad cough and had a bit of a low voice, hope you don't mind.(00:03:26) Introduction(00:05:45) The history of Translated(00:09:51) The use of transformers(00:12:47) Lara: the most advanced translation AI(00:17:51) The next step in AI models(00:24:01) The "Lara gap"(00:28:50) The real cost of training Lara(00:32:39) AI impact on human work in translation(00:41:16) Applying the Translated model in other fields(00:45:21) Concerns in AI applications(00:53:51) More on AI regulation(00:56:15) The state of AI startups(00:59:25) Understanding the AI game(01:03:31) AI and regular jobs—This episode is brought to you by https://workos.com—You can also find this at:- 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm- 📱 YouTube: https://youtu.be/HgKAg1rtQoE—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Adam Wiggins! Adam is the General Manager of Platform at The Browser Company and co-founder of Heroku. With Adam, we talked about innovating user experience in software and AI, we discussed what Local-first software means and we explored the future of developer tools. (02:49) Introduction (04:01) Adam's journey in tech (06:15) The rise of developer experience (10:03) The constant drive of improving UX (12:07) Dia & The Browser Company (14:49) Using AI to improve UX (20:38) Unlocking potentials through UX (25:18) Local-first software (32:34) Data ownership (34:31) Web development and complexity (38:03) AI and the future of development (40:25) The iteration loop — This episode is brought to you by https://workos.com — You can also find this at: - 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm - 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw - 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305 — For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Martin Fowler! Martin is chief scientist at ThoughtWorks. He is one of the original signatories of the Agile Manifesto and author of several legendary books, among which there is Refactoring, which shares the name with this podcast and this newsletter. With Martin, we talked about the impact of AI on software development, from the development process to how human learning and understanding changes up to the future of software engineering jobs. Then we explored the technical debt metaphor, why it has been so successful, and Martin's own advice on dealing with it. And finally, we talked about the state of Agile, the resistance that still exists today towards many Agile practices and how to measure engineering effectiveness. (03:29) Introduction (05:20) Development cycle with AI (08:36) Less control and reduced learning (13:11) Splitting task between Human and AI (14:48) The skills shift (20:17) Betting on new technologies (27:22) Martin's Refactoring and technical debt (29:24) Accumulating "cruft" (33:14) Dealing with "cruft" (37:24) The financial value of refactoring (42:04) Measuring performances (46:19) Why the "forest" didn't spread (56:11) Make the forest appealing — This episode is brought to you by https://workos.com — You can also find this at: - 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm - 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw - 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305 — For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Michael Lopp, better known as Rands, who is Senior Director of Engineering at Apple and writer of several popular books about engineering management, including "Managing Humans", which is a personal favorite of mine.With Rands, we discuss his journey into writing and the impact it had on his personal and professional growth. We reflected on his leadership style and the complexities of modern engineering management.01:07 Introduction02:49 Rands first steps in writing06:06 Sponsor07:46 Does writing help in managing?13:05 Michael and Rands15:29 Managing humans and chaos19:56 Mentoring fresh managers21:31 Rands' managing style28:27 Feedbacks30:25 Changes in engineering management33:43 AI: a future without layers40:10 Testing a thesis42:40 AI Interation = People Interation45:07 What is not going to change48:38 The 10%—You can also find this at:• 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm• 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw• 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Guillermo Rauch, who is CEO and founder of Vercel.With Guillermo, we talked about his journey in tech, from a small-town in Argentina, to successful open-source developer, to CEO of a billion-dollar company. Then we covered the unique Vercel model, which combines open-source and commercial work. And finally, we discussed the future of AI, engineers, open-source and software engineering at large.01:29 Introduction02:04 What is Vercel?04:40 Vercel's "secret sauce"06:46 Guillermo's journey in tech10:31 Vercel vs Complexity12:07 Helping solo engineers and great teams17:38 The importance of JavaScript20:23 TypeScript and JavaScript22:11 Satisfying both open source and market landscape28:18 For the open-source engineers32:35 The last frameworks36:55 AI current limitations38:59 The best framework for AI43:48 100 milliseconds48:34 Does Guillermo still code?52:10 The founder mode53:59 AI will make us full stack—You can also find this at:• 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm• 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw• 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Salvatore Sanfilippo, also known as Antirez!Salvatore is the creator of Redis, an open source data store used by hundreds of thousands of developers across the world. And he's also a writer. He published the popular sci-fi novel called Wohpe, which anticipated a lot of what is happening today with AI.With Salvatore, we talked about open source — what makes a project successful and how to make it successful for its maintainers. Then we discussed how Salvatore uses AI for extremely complex coding, which makes him 5x faster than without AI. And finally, I asked him about his writing work and what is the experience of writing a novel versus a software project.02:55 Introduction06:47 Salvatore's life priorities12:40 Develop an open source project in 2025 18:14 Being a generalist with AI support19:25 Making an open source project sustainable23:54 Complexity of modern front-end development24:58 Big Tech, complexity and open source30:19 Escaping the complexity loop33:40 The rebirth of fullstack through AI34:53 How Salvatore creates code with AI41:16 Does AI increase code productivity?44:14 The importance of the right prompt47:06 Writing tests in the AI era of development50:49 Whope, Salvatore's sci-fi novel53:28 Writing a novel and writing code—This episode is brought to you by https://workos.com—Some show notes:• Salvatore's website: https://antirez.com/• Salvatore's Youtube:    / @antirez  • Wohpe:   / wohpe  —You can also find this at:📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9d...📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Joel Chippindale!Joel is a full-time CTO Coach and one of the coaches-in-residence in the Refactoring community, where he runs monthly mastermind sessions and other community events.So with Joel, we dived into what coaching is, the difference with mentoring, one-on-one versus group coaching, and what are the top challenges that CTO faces today, based on the work that Joel does with his coaches.02:34 Introduction03:40 Joel's journey in tech05:21 Finding a definition of coaching07:25 Mentoring and coaching roles10:22 One-to-on and group coaching12:53 The "hows" of coaching15:12 Is coaching a widespread practice?18:35 Top CTOs challenges21:43 Right support for right challenges26:08 Advocating for technical work31:53 Commonalities and uniquenesses in CTOs challenges34:20 The platonic ideal of CTO36:49 Choosing what to focus on39:48 How to delegate properly—This episode is brought to you by https://workos.com—You can also find this at:- 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm- 📱 YouTube: https://youtu.be/HgKAg1rtQoE—For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Aviv Ben Josef! Aviv has more than 20 years of experience in tech. He is an executive coach working with hundreds of engineering teams and leaders. With Aviv, we talked about profitable engineering, what makes engineering valuable, why impact is hard to measure,and what are the cultural and organizational traits that make engineering teams successful. (01:43) Introduction (02:20) Aviv’s journey into tech (05:57) From tech to consulting (08:12) Less coding, more coaching (11:42) Profitable engineering (15:11) What unprofitable engineering looks like (17:33) Other engineering dysfunctions (20:49) Why is engineering still perceived as a cost (27:23) Switch your approach (32:48) Intentional learning (38:29) Meta retros: connecting engineers and product (45:31) Set your goals (48:27) Product engineering in today’s framework (53:28) The AI influence on teamwork — This episode is brought to you by https://sleuth.io — You can also find this at: - 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm - 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw - 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305 — For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club

Today's guest is Pat Kua! Pat is a professional engineering and leadership coach with more than 20 years of experience in tech. He was CTO of N26 and principal consultant at ThoughtWorks. He is an accomplished speaker and writes an awesome newsletter for tech leaders called Level Up. With Pat, we talked about his journey in tech, from Australia to London to Berlin. We talked about the future of engineering management and technical leadership and the ever controversial founder mode. Here is what we talked about: (02:17) Introduction (03:05) Pat's journey in tech (12:17) Engineering management evolution (18:27) Balancing people and tech management (21:55) The paybacks of a good management (25:25) System thinking in people's management (28:39) Finding the balance in hybrid roles (31:52) The foundation skill (37:42) About Paul Graham's essay (45:22) The maker vs multiplier framework (48:15) The evolution of practices in tech — This episode is brought to you by https://sleuth.io — You can also find this at: - 📬 Newsletter: https://refactoring.fm - 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7Luds9dmzZDoDC8Q7EMbSw - 📱 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/refactoring-podcast/id1719137305 — For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, or appearing as a guest, email: luca@refactoring.club