New Kinship

Taka Chan has been a queer, celibate Christian in campus ministry long enough to have seen both deep friendships and losses. He joined David and TJ to share stories of friends, pastors, and communities who have walked with him—and those who haven’t. We hope you’re encouraged by his reflections on God’s provision, even in the midst of uncertainty about what comes next.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠About Our GuestTaka Chan was born and raised in rural Hawaiʻi and has been working in college campus ministry for 18 years. He loves gardening, cooking for large groups of people, and taking classes at the Y with a bunch of grandmas. Ask him about his recent TV binges (The Pitt, Pachinko, Abbott Elementary) and what homework he’d suggest if you intend to visit Hawaiʻi. You can email him at [takachanaloha -at- gmail.com].—★ Timestamps(00:00) #74 - “If We Say We Love LGBT People...” Taka Chan on College Ministry and Faithfulness(01:11) Taka Chan: Hawai’i, family, coming out to myself and others(06:55) College in the time of ex-gay thought(11:55) “I try to be gentle with my younger self”(18:00) Single and married to everyone(23:49) Pastors going to bat for you(32:02) What do you do when friendships fail?(41:30) Evangelical ministry: If we’re saying we love LGBT people...how?(56:17) An employee resource group: we won’t be frozen in fear any more(01:00:46) Intersections: Being queer, being Japanese and Chinese(01:07:52) Why are you not Side A?(01:11:55) Being an “elder” in the Side B movement, and those who came before(01:15:20) What’s the future for you? (Intentional community?)—★ Links and ReferencesTwo Views on Homosexuality, the Bible, and the Church (2016)—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!:Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship or newkinship.substack.com—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Sometimes--as in the case of Rev. Zach from Ep. 73--we record an episode with folks and then, before we can release it, life takes interesting turns. Since talking to us 6 months ago, Zach is in the process of leaving the Episcopal denomination in the US and considering his ministerial call in a new way. He stopped by (metaphorically) to update us and share some more thoughts. We’re grateful for his ongoing discernment and willingness to bring us along! Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Reverend Zach joins TJ and David to share his unexpected journey from being in a same-sex marriage (Side A) to embracing a historic Christian sexual ethic (Side B). Raised Roman Catholic and shaped by a call to ministry, Zach talked about the questions that surfaced during seminary, how getting married changed his understanding of marriage, his longing for friendship, and the theologians and writers who shaped his thinking.We appreciate Rev. Zach’s honesty, insight, and experience with navigating life and ministry as a Side B priest in a largely Side A denomination.—What’s happened since? Come back on 12/11 for a bonus follow-up episode from Zach since this episode: https://open.substack.com/pub/newkinship/p/bonus-catching-up-with-zach-6-months —Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ About Our GuestRev. Zach ministers to the people of Long Island, NY and recently wrapped up his chaplaincy residency at Stony Brook University Hospital. You’ll most likely find him deep in a Jacques Ellul book or rooting for his favorite team, the Detroit Tigers. You can contact him on Instagram: @zach_enthusiastic—★ Timestamps(00:00) #73 - Theologies of Marriage and Friendship: Rev. Zach’s Story from Side A to Side B(02:10) How old are you? And other awkward life questions(17:53) A call to the priesthood(27:13) “Have you heard of Wesley Hill?” (and many others)(35:12) William Stringfellow had a big impact(41:44) Becoming Side B, engaging Side A(48:47) Was the breakup more relational or theological?(55:27) It’s about the covenantal nature of God(59:58) Does your Episcopalian church know you’re side B?(01:05:01) Why stay in a “big tent” church?(01:08:03) Beyond Side A: What does a marriage covenant mean?—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Dear listeners, join me on a special story with my neighbor Martina. She has fled to the US as an asylum-seeker in fear of her life from persecution and murderous extortion. Since then, she’s become not only a friend, but a partner in neighborhood hospitality and church community! Her ability to stay here is literally a matter of life and death, so some friends and I raised funds to help cover her legal fees so she could be represented in immigration court and fight to stay here. I'm grateful to God for all who helped leverage their resources to support this case. Thanks friends!Sincerely, David—★ Timestamps(00:00) Introduction to Martina’s Story(04:15) Martina’s Life in Ecuador(05:31) Martina’s Entrepreneurial Journey(12:21) Facing Extortion and Corruption(21:18) Fleeing to the United States(22:24) Life in the United States(25:04) Finding Hope and Community(34:08) Reflections and Future Hopes Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Dr. Julia Sadusky, a Catholic and licensed psychologist from Colorado, joins David and TJ to unpack the Chiles vs. Salazar Supreme Court case and what’s behind the debates around conversion therapy. Julia talks about how she brings together her faith and psychology, and why—as a conservative Christian—she chose to support Colorado’s ban on “conversion therapy” for minors, through an amicus brief.We are grateful for the nuance and clarity Julia offers in this (often heated and stressful) conflict in the courts and in our church circles, and we invite you to take that same posture of openness and care, as you listen.★ About Our GuestDr. Julia Sadusky is a licensed clinical psychologist and the owner of a private practice in Littleton, CO. She is also an author, consultant, speaker, and adjunct professor. Dr. Sadusky has done extensive research and clinical work in sexual and gender development and specializes in trauma-informed care. She earned a bachelor’s degree from Ave Maria University and a master’s degree and doctorate in Clinical Psychology from Regent University. She has authored several books around human sexuality, with her most recent two-book series entitled, “Start Talking to Your Kids about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics” (Ave Maria Press, 2023) and “Talking with Your Teen about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics” (Ave Maria Press, 2024). You can find her at juliasadusky.com.—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A,” “Side B,” and “Side X” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to that conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) Quick intro, Side A, Side B, Side X(02:58) Introducing Julia: Now you know a psychologist from Delaware(06:17) How (can) psychology and Christian faith go together(08:17) What is conversion therapy?(12:33) Conversion therapy success rates? Digging into Joseph Nicolosi’s research(22:47) What about “reintegrative therapy”? Measuring “change in attraction”(25:59) History of changing diagnoses, reports on conversion therapy(29:21) OK, so, the current case: Chiles vs. Salazar(40:40) Is this more about conversion therapy? or religious freedom? Is therapy “speech”?(45:58) How do contemporary trans politics overlap (or hype) this case?—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship—★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

What is the nature of sin and desire? At a theological level?We’re diving in with Joel Carini (from The Natural Theologian) for a theological conversation about desire, sin, attraction, and the resources that the reformed theological tradition has (or doesn’t have) for same-sex-attracted, celibate Christians. Also includes: comparisons to psychology vs. biblical counseling, and how Harry Potter had comparable challenges.—Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, here’s a quick explanation. We also recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.”* “Side A” generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Specific perspectives differ beyond that:* “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic.* ”Side X” tends to emphasize the possibility of sexual orientation change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being “ex gay.”* “Side Y” tends to avoid naming any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being “gay.”★ About Our GuestJoel Carini is a Ph.D. candidate in philosophy at Saint Louis University. He holds an MDiv from Westminster Theological Seminary and an MA from the University of Chicago. He publishes regularly at his Substack and YouTube at The Natural Theologian.Joel’s previous episode on New Kinship is: #29 - Weigh and Consider the World: Joel Carini on Nature, Truth, and Side B—★ Timestamps(00:00) #71 – Can Desire Be Redeemed? Joel Carini on Sin, Psychology, and the Reformed Imagination(00:46) Becoming a straight ally and public thinker(08:20) The tone of the Christian conversation at Wheaton(16:09) Why might someone take on “Side Y”?(26:27) Are some desires categorically sinful? Could Jesus have even possibly sinned?(37:39) Theology (and psychology) from nature? vs. a “Biblicist” approach. Plus Harry Potter + Voldemort.(55:39) “Original sin” as a disease?(01:06:42) Advice for engaging Side Y perspectives(01:13:49) Vision for the future of the “Side B project”—★ Links and References* Video: Tim Keller and Kevin DeYoung on the PCA’s Report on Human Sexuality (2021): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JWQPFvtzck* Joel’s interview episode with Colton Beach: The Christian Life: A Walk in the Park? A Conversation with a Gay Christian* A Quiet Mind to Suffer With by John Andrew Bryant (2023).* Anna Carini’s podcast episode of Consult the Counselor, on OCD: Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (July 1, 2025)Some names dropped, for your easier internet searching :) of course: Ulrich Zwingli was a reformer of the Protestant Reformation; Philip Ryken is president of Wheaton College; Harry Potter and Voldemort is a fantasy book that…should not be hard to find.—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support: Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

David, Lakshmi, and Erin dig into the intersection of wealth, faith, and community, particularly from the standpoint of middle-class Christians. Sparked by Lakshmi’s seminary research on Christian engagement with wealth accumulation in a neoliberal capitalist system, we explored theological and practical approaches to wealth: What does it mean to have or accumulate wealth? What are the impacts of capitalism? the role of intentional Christian communities? and the balance between personal finances and larger systemic (in)justice? Can we create alternative economic systems grounded in Christian values of mutuality and relationship?Check out Lakshmi’s work on communities at her Substack Dwelling Place!★ Resources/Links/References:* Wealth as Peril and Obligation by Sandra Eli Wheeler * The Principle of Maximums by Roger L. Stichter* True Riches by John Cortines and Gregory Baumer* Beyond Charity by John Perkins* The Life You Can Save by Peter Singer* Practicing the King’s Economy by Michael Rhodes, Robby Holt, and Brian Fikkert* The Unjust Steward: Wealth, Poverty, and the Church Today by Escobar, Miguel* When God Made You by Matthew Paul Turner (illustrated by David Catrow)★ Timestamps(00:00) Introduction and Guest Introductions(01:37) Lakshmi’s Journey and Thoughts on Wealth(03:33) Erin’s Perspective on Wealth and Justice(05:10) Who Is Wealthy? (09:45) New Challenges in Neoliberal Capitalism(12:32) Community and Economic Systems(23:49)  Wealth as Peril and Obligation according to the New Testament(27:32) Possessions, Wealth and Practical Faithfulness(33:53) Joy beyond Guilt(35:47) Approaches to Faith and Wealth(40:16) Personality, Character, and Wealth(48:44) Challenging Assumptions About Wealth and Virtue(49:52) Economic Justice and Personal Responsibility(50:59) Middle Class Mindset and Community Investment(52:38) Navigating Power Dynamics in Personal Relationships(53:36) The Role of Reciprocity in Building Community(54:56) Class Perception and Social Mobility(01:03:44) Intentional Christian Communities and Wealth(01:05:45) Effective Altruism vs. Relational Giving(01:07:19) Is Guilt Good for Generosity?(01:09:35) The Importance of Relocation and Local Impact(01:17:53) Final Reflections on Wealth and Responsibility—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support! || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship—★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

“ In our society is a big assumption that what it means to be truly, fully human is to not need other people… So you face a choice: is it fundamentally a bad thing to be a person? Or, is our account of a person as ‘someone who’s independent and autonomous’ fundamentally untrue? And [if so] we have to make room for our genuine neediness in our account of what it means to be human and what we owe to each other.”Author Leah Libresco Sargeant joined New Kinship to talk about building community, relationships, and need. We discussed practical ways of building Christian community from her second book, Building the Benedict Option: A Guide to Gathering Two or Three Together in His Name. And we dived into her just-released third book, The Dignity of Dependence: A Feminist Manifesto, about an anthropology of need, justice, and care.Vulnerability, it turns out, isn’t just for women/children/elders/the weak. It’s for all of us.★ About Our GuestLeah Libresco Sargeant is the author of The Dignity of Dependence (as well as Arriving at Amen and Building the Benedict Option). She runs the Substack Other Feminisms, which focuses on how to advocate for women as women in a world that makes an idol of autonomy. She lives in Maryland and works in family policy in D.C.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #70 - Who’s Afraid of Dependence? with Leah Libresco Sargeant(05:09) Overview: Building the Benedict Option - generating community(16:28) Catholic resources for building neighborhood community(26:50) What we give up, for community(30:08) Overview: The Dignity of Dependence(33:27) “Personalism” and recommended sources(36:12) Equality of men and women ≠ interchangeability(40:47) Does dependence rely on hierarchy relationships?(43:19) How we measure labor with market logic (and shouldn’t)(49:44) Women’s “porous” experience of the world, and our theology of the church as feminine—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

“Paul [in 1st Corinthians] really does seem to think that what I do with my body, Christ has done with his body. Like, when I use my body to abuse other people, I have taken Christ's body and used it to abuse people, which for a Christian is the maximum sacrilege that you could do. But when I do something loving or caring or giving… I have taken Jesus' body and blessed others with it.”So.You heard part 1. (If not, it’s here: #68 - The Christian Story of Sex and Marriage, with Tyler Parker (Part 1))Now you’re back for part 2. We’ve got a lot more for you:Join us for the tour through Numbers, Deuteronomy, the Gospels, Romans, and 1st Corinthians… We touch on themes of idolatry, adultery, how Jesus was super single, and what this means for… well, anyone with a body: single or married, straight or sexual minorities, broken and definitely beautiful.Please listen and then send your comments, questions, disagreements, and general angst. Links below. We’d love to hear from you!(For those of us less attuned to sarcasm: If you email the gmail address Tyler named at the end of this episode, the poor guy on the other end of that email will not know what you’re talking about. 😆 Please just contact TJ, or any of us, at the email and Substack links below!)—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #69 - The Christian Story of Sex and Marriage with Tyler Parker (Part 2)(00:15) A quick summary of Part 1(02:43) "Tselem"=little statues, images of God(07:29) Paul on conjugal rights: How consent images God (and coercion does not)(16:07) Deuteronomy: "For the sake of the world who is watching..."(27:48) Idolatry: "I don't want you to settle for less(er gods)"(34:06) Numbers: the tie between idolatry and adultery(39:22) Paul in Romans 1: When we worship a creature instead(52:33) So...what does this mean for Side B? How Jesus was single(01:04:52) "Sex is not the only way I can use my body to demonstrate God in the world."(01:11:38) "We're gonna fuse bodies..."(01:14:28) Marriage as a metaphor for God, and its limits—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

What is marriage actually for? What is sex for?The way we answer these questions reveal the stories we tell ourselves and each other. So then: what is the story we see unfolding in the Bible? And what would it look like for the Christian story to be our primary narrative?In this episode, Tyler Parker takes us through the first part of the Biblical story. God’s kingdom on earth, how human marriage plays a role, what makes marriage a unique relationship, good stuff. And then we touch on the Christian story’s implications for same-sex marriage, serial monogamy, hookup relationships, and other expressions of sexuality.And then we realized this was a big topic and saved a few questions to Part 2. Stay tuned for that!Part 2 can be found here: https://open.substack.com/pub/newkinship/p/69-the-christian-story-of-sex-andFinally: We note the need for a Catholic voice to join this conversation, so—if you have a recommendation, please get in touch!—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #68 - The Christian Story of Sex and Marriage with Tyler Parker (Part 1)(03:58) Why we start with narrative(08:08) The Bible's creation myth: a God who makes order from chaos(12:56) The dimorphic expression of God's image(20:14) God rested: He made a home for himself, with humans(26:00) "Ezer": a helper who does what you cannot(30:16) "Kenegdo": marriage isn't just union, it's REunion.(41:47) A symbol of fruitfulness--but what is a symbol? We note the need for a Catholic voice.(54:18) What about the church and other communities? Does marriage "colonize" all the good things about human unions?(01:03:11) "Porneia": what is NOT good, in God's narrative(01:17:23) In which we decide we'll need a Part 2—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCo-Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

My recent friend Faith, who I met at an OTL Dialogue, has a gift for questions. So when Faith expressed interest in asking me about my community living situation, I was grateful she was up for recording our call, because she’s a careful thinker who understands systems from a deep rootedness in the organic nature of community and personhood. And boy, did she make me think and reflect.Leaving our conversation, I’m left with questions for how to make my community house wiser, more developed, more mature. I’m left wondering how we can develop rituals of modifying our covenant, rituals of remembering our values and vision, on staying attuned to different nodes of awareness on the health of the community, and on encouraging multiple nodes of community ownership. (00:00) Introductions(03:38) Foundations of Intentional Community(08:58) Values and Practices in Community Living (16:17) Conflict Resolution and Community Dynamics (28:11) Navigating Household Dynamics, Clutter, and Values (29:50) Leadership Challenges for Enneagram 2s (32:25) Balancing External and Internal Responsibilities (40:45) The Process of Housemate Transitions (44:15) Future Aspirations and Neighborhood Integration Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

In this bonus review episode of Revoice 2025, TJ and David (and a couple friends at the end) discuss their experiences at the recent Revoice 2025 conference held in Seattle, Washington. What we forgot to mention in the recording was how incredible the “Build” theme was this year, as the different main speakers walked us through Nehemiah and Art really hit it out of the ballpark with his exhortations for the Side B community (and its friends and allies) to get to work seeking the Kingdom of God. It was powerful.Some highlights mentioned included the various speakers (including Mwendia, Wesley Hill, Anna Carter from Eden Invitation, and Julia Sadusky), the worship team led by Wes, and spaces to make meaningful connections. We offer a couple tips to attendees for making future conferences enjoyable (like affinity groups, communal living arrangements).Check out Revoice for next year! https://www.revoice.org/ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

In LGBT and Christian communities, Ron Koustas has seen a lot. When his longtime partner was diagnosed with AIDS—in the early years before life-saving medications were available—Ron became his partner’s caregiver. As he revisited the Christian faith of his youth, Ron eventually joined and then served in ministries to gay folks in New York City. He’s seen ex-gay churches try to help people “become straight.” He’s seen churches love gay people well, and also poorly. He’s been part of several close “chosen families.” He’s been asked hurtful questions, been defended by church people, been asked to defend himself, and has continued to serve and support fellow believers through the process.We are fascinated by Ron’s story over the years and encouraged by his continued, joyful pursuit of Jesus and his church.★ About Our GuestRon Koustas, now retired from federal service, has spent over 30 years leading AIDS outreach efforts in NYC and Northern NJ churches, including playing a pivotal role in Hope For New York’s AIDS Ministry. His ministry has been featured in Christianity Today’s Leadership Journal and Michael Slaughter’s book unLearning Church. More recently, prompted by pastoral encouragement, Ron has embraced the Side B community and now actively engages with younger members through his NJ Revoice Chapter. He continues to serve as a breakout speaker at the annual Revoice Conference.—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #67 - Ron Koustas's Testimony of Staying: Caregiving and Church Ministry in the AIDS Crisis(01:42) Ron's story: supporting his gay partner with AIDS(21:07) "Ex-gay" church ministries: "Are you gay or a Christian?"(30:42) Moving out of ex-gay spaces and into Revoice circles(45:15) What is good (still?) about loving your partner?(52:28) Joining a new church: "If you're gay, what are you doing here?"(57:21) Advice for feeling settled, chosen families—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

In Japan, where Christians are a minority and “being gay” carries some different cultural meanings than it does in the US, Aogu Fujihashi offers to LGBTQ people the support and discipleship he would have wanted to receive as a teenager. This week, David and TJ talk with Aogu about Japanese Christianity, his journey toward a Side B understanding of faith and sexuality, his spiritual influences (from Augustine to Calvin to Piper and more), and his LGBTQ+ ministry in Tokyo.Also: Japanese bathhouse culture! We learned some things.We appreciate Aogu’s deep care for the church in Japan, and his desire for open dialogue rather than hostility—wherever you find yourself on these questions, we hope you’ll join us in listening and learning from each other.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ About Our GuestAogu Fujihashi is a gay Japanese Christian who served on staff with YWAM from 2020 to 2025, after volunteering with them in the 2011 tsunami relief efforts. He focuses on helping the Japanese church have healthier conversations about LGBTQ+ issues. Aogu helped edit the Japanese translation of Two Views on Homosexuality and wrote the foreword for Wesley Hill’s Washed and Waiting. He’s passionate about creating spaces where people can experience God’s love and live whole lives. He can be found on Instagram at @aogufuji.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #66 - Wrestling with Faith and Sexuality in Japan: Aogu Fujihashi’s Journey | 信仰とセクシュアリティの葛藤：藤橋仰さんの証し(00:26) "When I realized I was gay..."(12:39) A spiritual lineage of God's heart for the world(21:35) Don't charismatic churches do conversion therapy and such?(30:46) Why not Side A: The Samwise Gamgee approach(38:07) What's the difference between repression and self-control?(45:40) Friendships: The classic trope of Japanese manga(51:52) LGBTQ ministry: being even more "out"(01:03:08) Bathhouse culture in Japan(01:13:50) Looking ahead: Hope for better dialogue in Japan(01:17:29) A post-episode conversation: On literal readings and compelling theology—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

After hearing about TJ’s previous experience at OTL (Oriented to Love), I, David, felt prompted to fly to the city of brotherly love and experience this dialogue retreat himself. God did more than I could have asked for or imagined in this sacred weekend in conversation with other Christians from diverse perspectives and backgrounds, with purposeful differences across the Side A (progressive views on faith and sexuality) and Side B (historic views on faith and sexuality) divide.I was joined by two other friends from the retreat, Andrew Gordon and Cathie McCoy, who also share Side B perspectives, to share about their meaningful experiences connecting on deep topics of the heart. In order to bring out the most organic of connections, we were led through an intentionally structured 44 hours together in spiritual exercises and vulnerable dialogue.—★ Timestamps(00:00) Introduction to the Bonus Episode(02:35) Meet the Guests: Andrew and Cathie(07:27) Preparing for the Dialogue(11:56) Anticipations and Expectations(17:09) The OTL Experience: Setting the Stage(21:54) Engaging in Dialogue Across Differences in Theology(32:31) The Power of Authentic Connections in Moments of Vulnerability(35:12) Navigating Theological and Ethical Differences in Safe and Humble Spaces(39:30) The Role of the Holy Spirit in Personal Growth(44:52) Balancing Individuality and Community(01:00:13) The Importance of Vulnerability and Being Seen(01:06:54) Final Thoughts and Recommendations—★ Links and References* “Oriented to Love”: https://christiansforsocialaction.org/programs/oriented-to-love/ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

In conversations around Christian faith and sexuality, especially in the U.S., it can feel like everyone’s expected to pick a “side.” But it’s not the same—or at least the same lines being drawn—in other places.In this episode, we talked with Aogu Fujihashi and Kaz Okaya about their experiences in the Japanese Christian context, where the conversation around LGBTQ+ identity looks a bit different. We talk about how a culture of conformity impacts same-sex marriage ideas in Japan, how American evangelicals influence Japanese churches, and the quiet struggles many queer Christians face in some church communities. Join us for a thoughtful look at what gets lost—or gained—in translation, on faith and sexuality, in Japan.—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—About Our GuestsAogu Fujihashi is a gay Japanese Christian who served on staff with YWAM from 2020 to 2025, after volunteering with them in the 2011 tsunami relief efforts. He focuses on helping the Japanese church have healthier conversations about LGBTQ+ issues. Aogu helped edit the Japanese translation of Two Views on Homosexuality and wrote the foreword for Wesley Hill’s Washed and Waiting. He’s passionate about creating spaces where people can experience God’s love and live whole lives. He can be found on Instagram at @aogufuji.Kazusa Okaya is a straight Japanese Christian, translator, and PhD student at Durham University. He translated Washed and Waiting and Andrew Marin’s Love Is an Orientation into Japanese and contributed to Two Views on Homosexuality. Kaz formerly served as an IFES (International Fellowship of Evangelical Students) staff worker in Japan (KGK - “Kirisutosha Gakusei Kai", which means “Fellowship of Christian Students”). As a former staff pastor in student ministry, Kaz has been a thoughtful voice in ongoing conversations about faith and sexuality in the Japanese church. He participates in conversations on faith and sexuality at Dream Party dialogue.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #65 - Aogu Fujihashi and Kaz Okaya, Japanese Christians on Faith and Sexuality Convos (06:09) When the Japanese Christian bookstore has zero books on LGBTQ (17:31) Challenges of translating: "Christians who wish to be faithful..." (31:20) "Japan is the only G7 country that hasn't legalized same-sex marriage" (41:26) What is an "evangelical" in Japan? (44:21) How do Christians talk about being gay in Japan? Borrow US categories? (57:17) Japanese Christians "coming out", but rarely to a pastor (01:00:43) Kinship beyond marriage in Japan... is mainly outside the church (gang brotherhoods?) (01:08:16) We hope to keep dialogue open between progressive/conservative Christians (01:13:12) Who do we choose to dialogue with? When does it cause harm?—★ Links and ReferencesThe Bible study for LGBTQ+ and same-sex attracted people that Aogu facilitates meets every other week in Shinjuku, Tokyo. Follow on Instagram: @shinjukubaisutaAogu Fujihashi has an occasionally updated blog at https://aogufujihashi.wordpress.com/Kaz has an article in Christianity Today: Japanese Evangelicalism Was Once Nationalistic (May 2025)—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Grace Thomas came out as a transgender woman at age 61—after decades of life as a pastor, husband, and father. That alone makes her story remarkable. But what’s even more compelling is the way she tells it: with gentleness, honesty, and deep care for the people in her life.In this episode, Grace shares how her transition has shaped her relationships with her children and her wife, what it’s been like to remain in conversation with those who don’t fully understand or affirm her, and how her reading of Scripture has changed her approach to parenting, church, and more.We’re particularly grateful for the gracious and curious way that Grace approaches all her conversations, and we hope you’ll join us to learn from her, no matter where you land on these topics.About Our GuestGrace is a committed follower of Jesus with a call to ministry. She is also a trans woman out publicly for 3 ½ years. During her 32 years as a pastor in a conservative denomination, her two youngest children came out as gay. Deeply committed to loving her sons and following Jesus, she began a long journey of rethinking faith and what it means to fully love others, especially her children and herself. Grace supports parents of LGBTQ kids through various support groups as well as pursuing community and inclusion for LGBTQ individuals in the church. You can contact her at graceisforyoualways@gmail.comNote: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #64 - Grace Thomas: From Pentecostal Pastor to Trans Woman(03:39) I only knew to say: "Being gay is sin."(10:40) Coming out to myself as transgender: "I don't know" is cruel(25:15) The wrong wedding clothes: How does it hang on the law of love?(33:29) "Parents know if they're giving a child a fish or a rock"(47:02) Holiness: I don't see God as "untouchable"(58:26) A trans experience: Psalm 139(01:10:58) A trans experience: The car parts store(01:15:25) A trans experience: Passing as female(01:18:38) No one can stop me from loving my neighbor—★ Links and ReferencesCheck out a few other episodes we mentioned in this conversation:* #32 - TJ Participated in an “Oriented to Love” Dialogue--Here Are His Thoughts* #33 - Asking Better Questions with Oriented to Love’s Kristyn Komarnicki* #11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

In this bonus episode, we chat with Mike Vick about the American Solidarity Party. We explore the party's foundations, which are influenced by Christian democratic values and Catholic Social Teaching. Their thorough set of ethical platforms grounded in human dignity, the common good, and solidarity (in a way that neither Democratic nor Republican parties are offering!!) would really be a breath of fresh air in American politics!Mike Vick is the founder of the Liberation Caucus in the American Solidarity Party. The episode delves into Mike's personal and political journey, his stance on social and economic issues, and the challenges within the party, particularly concerning LGBT topics. Come join us as we think about the role of civic pluralism in US politics.—★ Timestamps(00:00) Welcome Mike Vick from the American Solidarity Party(01:50) LGBTQ Topics and Side B Perspective(04:10) Mike Vick's Background and Political Journey(15:51) Solidarity Party's Principles and Inclusivity(19:15) Distributism and Economic Democracy(26:33) Pro-Life Stance and Social Issues(28:32) Platforms and Opinions on LGBTQ+ Issues(32:29) Three Camps within the Party(36:07) Party Challenges and Tensions(42:43) Liberation Caucus and Party Dynamics(49:23) Political Theology and Civic Pluralism(52:14) How to Get Active—★ Links and References in This Episode* ASP Liberation Caucus: www.liberationasp.org* Mike’s Linktree: linktr.ee/votevickusa* American Solidarity Party * www.solidarity-party.org/platform* linktr.ee/liberationasp* The Servile State by Hilaire Belloc (1912)* Toward a Truly Free Market: A Distributist Perspective on the Role of Government,Taxes, Health Care, Deficits, and More by John Medaille (2011)—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

What if friendship—not romance, not marriage—were the central relationship in your life?That’s the question Rhaina Cohen asks in her book The Other Significant Others. And wow, do we love this book. David, TJ, and Elena sat down with Rhaina to talk about what it would mean to build a life around deep, committed friendship—and why our current relationship hierarchy (romantic > everything else) might be due for a rethink.Once you start centering friendship, it starts disrupting many other assumptions. We talked about: what it looks like to live near your friends, how parenting could look different, what happens when friends make commitments, when other people don’t recognize those commitments, and whether secular folks should borrow a few ideas from monks.Join us and—if you haven’t already—go read the book!About Our GuestRhaina Cohen is an award-winning editor for the NPR documentary podcast Embedded and the author of the national bestseller, The Other Significant Others: Reimagining Life with Friendship at the Center, which Trevor Noah described as "my new Bible." Her writing on social connection has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, The Washington Post and has been supported by the National Endowment for the Humanities. Rhaina's recent TED talk on the untapped potential of friendship has been viewed more than half a million times. She lives in Washington, D.C. with her husband and close friends.—★ Timestamps(00:00) Why we were excited to interview Rhaina Cohen(04:17) Rhaina Cohen: "Reimagining life with friendship at the center"(10:27) Deconstruction and reconstruction: You can't be what you can't see(19:10) Live Near Friends(24:52) Conflicts in friendships: needing language, recognition(28:29) Parenting doesn't have to be exhausting(37:00) Can we TEACH better relationship skills?(41:33) Covenant relationships: "You can be committed to someone and not be sleeping with them"(47:04) Would secular people benefit from monastic models?(55:03) What's next? Monogamy, marriage vows, and more(01:01:52) Recommended readings from Rhaina and more—★ Links and References“A Grand Experiment in Parenthood and Friendship” by Rhaina Cohen (The Atlantic, 2025)Live Near Friends: livenearfriends.comSuper Nuclear: supernuclear.substack.comPlatonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make—and Keep—Friends by Marissa Franco (2022)Modern Friendship: How to Nurture Our Most Valued Connections by Anna Goldfarb (2024):Stay True, a memoir by Hua Hsu (2023)First Love: Essays on Friendship by Lily Dancyger (2024)Invisibilia (NPR) series on friendship, especially: Nun of Us Are Friends, Esther Perel gives Therapy with FriendsFollow Rhaina: Related on Substack, @RhainaCohen on InstagramTJ’s Story (New Kinship episode #6): “TJ's Story | Dysphoria, Queerness, Contextualization, and Conviction”—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, or support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

I mean, I don’t know you. Maybe you didn’t grow up in an evangelical Christian subculture. But if you did, there’s a high likelihood that the ideas you absorbed about how men and women behave—and what it even means to be masculine or feminine—were influenced heavily by C.S Lewis’ famous Space Trilogy: Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength.On this fascinating episode, Kathryn Wagner (returning guest and medieval lit scholar) and Robin Harris (writer and incoming seminarian) stopped by to evaluate Lewis’ takes on gender against both more modern feminist sensibilities and much older writers and theologians in the Christian tradition.You should absolutely join us.★ About Our Guests:Robin Harris is a North Carolina based freelance writer and editor who specializes in Bible curriculum. She is on the board of the Davenant Institute. Her writing has appeared in Mere Orthodoxy, Ad Fontes, and the Theopolis Institute. As of Fall 2025, she will be a student at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary (MATS, 2027). She writes at robinjeanharris.substack.com/ and can be reached at robinjeanharris [at] gmail.com.Kathryn Wagner is the Director of Academic Programming at the Center for Christianity and Scholarship at Duke University. She studies the literature and religious culture of the late Middle Ages and teaches courses that aim to form students in virtue through the practices of the liberal arts. She can be reached at kathryn [at] mogkwagner.net.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #62 - Evangelicals' Gender Ideas Came from C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy - with Robin Harris and Kathryn Wagner(04:20) Evangelicals who leaned on C.S. Lewis and the Space Trilogy(13:12) The Space Trilogy tackles gender(24:46) But can archetypes live in the real world?(38:44) God does not have a body: Metaphors in Christian scripture(53:28) Confusion and contraception are tied together(01:00:58) God as our mother?(01:06:39) Lewis's thinking evolution: widening the gender box(01:24:44) Replacing theoretical masculinity and femininity with real friendships(01:33:24) What would Lewis think of today's transgender conversation?(01:40:31) In the Christian tradition on gender, Lewis is the test run—★ Links and ReferencesThese well-read people dropped a lot of names and references. For your ease of Google searching, here are the ones we caught:John and Stasi Eldridge (books: Wild at Heart, Captivating), Jordan Peterson Jungian thinking, Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, Elisabeth Elliot (book: Let Me Be a Woman), complementarianism and egalitarianism, Michael Ward (book: Planet Narnia), apophatic theology, platonic forms and Aristotle’s hylomorphism, Thomistic/ Thomas=Thomas Aquinas, Pope John Paul II (book/writings: Theology of the Body), Anselm of Canterbury talked about God as our mother, Julian of Norwich said a similar thing; Joy Davidman, Dorothy Sayers, philosopher Elizabeth Anscombe, Sister Penelope Lawson, Ruth Pitter, C. S. Lewis (books: The Four Loves, A Grief Observed), Kevin Vanhoozer (theologian).—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship —★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe