Disarming Leviathan Podcast

In this episode of Disarming Leviathan, Caleb sits down with Pastor David Ruybalid Ruybalid to examine the growing narrative that a “revival” is underway—especially among young men returning to church. While acknowledging real shifts in generational engagement, David offers a careful theological and pastoral critique of revival language that prioritizes numbers, emotion, or cultural momentum over repentance, humility, unity, and Spirit-formed fruit. Drawing on historical examples like the Moravian Revival, David argues that genuine revival cannot be manufactured or controlled—and must be evaluated by its fruit, not its hype.The conversation also explores why increased male participation in church has coincided with many women disengaging, highlighting the impact of institutional betrayal, abuse, unaddressed power dynamics, and the weaponization of Scripture. About DavidDavid Ruybalid is a pastor, writer, and trauma-informed practitioner who works at the intersection of church leadership, abuse response, and spiritual formation. He is the co-founder of the Religious Trauma Network and teaches on abuse response through a course developed with Danielle Strickland’s organization. Drawing on years of pastoral ministry, worship leadership, and advocacy for survivors, David equips churches to recognize institutional betrayal, respond faithfully to abuse, and cultivate leadership rooted in humility, repentance, and the character of Christ.Learn more about Disarming Leviathan at DisarmingLeviathan.com Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Many Christians struggle with the violence and conquest language of the Old Testament—especially texts like Joshua that seem at odds with the way of Jesus. In this episode, biblical scholar Helen Paynter helps us read these passages within the unfolding story of Scripture, showing how themes like warfare and power are transformed at the cross. Together, we explore why using these texts to justify modern political or military agendas is theologically thin, and how deeper biblical literacy helps Christians discern when Scripture is being misused.About HelenHelen is a former nephrologist who followed a call into Baptist ministry, training at Bristol Baptist College and serving in associate and interim ministry roles in South Bristol before taking up her current full-time role at the college in 2020. She holds a PhD in Old Testament, along with master’s degrees in Biblical Studies and Missional Church Leadership, and her research focuses on narrative texts in the Hebrew Bible, particularly themes of violence, humor, and the misuse of Scripture. Helen is the founding director of the College’s Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence, which equips churches and scholars to engage biblical texts responsibly in a violent world. She is deeply committed to teaching and preaching, passionate about the Bible’s life-giving power through the Spirit, and attentive to the harm it can cause when misused. Her most recent book is Blessed are the Peacemakers: A Biblical Theology of Human Violence (Zondervan, 2023).Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Disarming Leviathan podcast, biblical scholar Dr. Dru Johnson pushes back against the misuse of Old Testament law by culture warriors and partisan tribalists who treat the Torah as a ready-made tool for coercive governance. Instead, he presents biblical law as a formational guide—not a rigid codebook—for shaping the moral and social imagination of God’s people. Johnson explains how casuistic law in the Bible functions through patterns and wisdom rather than universal enforcement. He contrasts this with modern Western legal assumptions shaped by Enlightenment thought, which often distort how Christians read and apply Scripture in public life. This conversation invites listeners to approach biblical law as a source of discernment, not domination.About DruDr. Dru Johnson is a biblical scholar and philosopher specializing in Old Testament law, ritual, and theological epistemology. He serves as Professor of Biblical and Theological Studies at Hope College and is the author of numerous books, including Human Rites, Biblical Philosophy, and Understanding Biblical Law (Zondervan Academic, 2024). Johnson is also a Senior Fellow at The King’s College and director of the Center for Hebraic Thought. His work bridges academic scholarship and public theology, helping Christians engage Scripture with intellectual integrity and cultural awareness. He also heads up the Center for Hebraic Thought and the Biblical Mind podcast. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, pastor and author Zach W. Lambert confronts the weaponization of Scripture in American public life and church culture. Drawing from his book Better Ways to Read the Bible, he outlines how harmful interpretive “lenses” have been used to justify everything from Christian nationalism to slavery to spiritual abuse. Rather than abandoning Scripture, Lambert calls Christians to reclaim a Jesus-centered, context-aware, fruit-bearing engagement with the Bible. He offers four healthy lenses—Jesus, context, flourishing, and fruitfulness—and explains how these can guide both personal discipleship and public theology in a way that heals rather than harms.About ZachZach W. Lambert is the founding pastor of Restore Austin, a multiethnic, multigenerational church in Austin, Texas. He is the author of Better Ways to Read the Bible: Transforming a Weapon of Harm into a Tool of Healing, a book that helps Christians rethink how Scripture is interpreted and applied in both church and society. Zach is a frequent speaker and writer on topics related to justice, public theology, and deconstruction. His work appears on Substack under the title Public Theology, and he shares regular content on Instagram and X at @ZachWLambert. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, pastor and author Tara Beth Leach reflects on how the work of preaching and pastoring has changed in a time of political division, cultural anxiety, and social media outrage. She names the temptation pastors face to use the pulpit for venting or applause, and instead offers a vision of slow, intentional, Spirit-led formation shaped by liturgy, Scripture, and communal prayer. Drawing from her own journey, Tara Beth shares how she moved from reactive preaching to prophetic pastoring marked by maternal empathy, imagination, and subversive presence.About Tara BethTara Beth Leach is a pastor, writer, and speaker who serves as the Senior Pastor of Good Shepherd Church in Naperville, Illinois. She is the author of several books including Radiant Church and Emboldened: A Vision for Empowering Women in Ministry. A graduate of Northern Seminary, Tara Beth has pastored in diverse settings across the country and regularly writes and teaches on preaching, spiritual formation, and women in leadership. Her ministry centers on helping the church embody a radiant witness of the Kingdom of God in the midst of division, injustice, and fear. She writes regularly on Substack and speaks at conferences and churches across the U.S. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, writer and researcher Rachel Darnall shares her firsthand perspective on the rise of patriarchal theology in American Christianity and its connection to Christian nationalism. Drawing from her new video series It’s a Man’s World: The Genesis 3:16 Effect, Rachel explains how teachings rooted in control, male hierarchy, and politicized family roles have moved from the margins into mainstream evangelical spaces. She outlines how homeschooling, classical education, and economic structures are often used to reinforce authoritarian leadership, particularly in places like Moscow, Idaho. Rachel helps listeners see the human cost of these systems and offers practical insight into how churches and families can resist spiritual abuse while staying rooted in Scripture and community.About RachelRachel Darnall is a writer and researcher focused on gender, theological ethics, and religious authoritarianism. She is the creator of It’s a Man’s World: The Genesis 3:16 Effect, a video series produced with the Anastasis Center for Christian Education and Ministry that examines the rise and reach of Christian patriarchy in American religious life. Rachel holds an M.A. in Theological Studies from Westminster Theological Seminary (2024) and has been writing on gender, purity culture, and church power dynamics since 2017. Her work is shaped by a deep interest in women’s history and a commitment to biblical integrity. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Dr. Vincent Bacote offers a thoughtful and theologically grounded vision for civic engagement shaped by the character of Christ. He challenges listeners to reject both Christian triumphalism and political withdrawal, advocating instead for a kingdom-oriented public witness that seeks the good of others. Drawing from his work in ethics, political theology, and his recent documentary Black + Evangelical, Bacote addresses power, integrity, institutional engagement, and the importance of discernment in advocacy. He invites Christians to see politics not as ultimate but as a space of provisional service, where we gesture toward the coming Kingdom through faithful, humble presence in public life.About VinceDr. Vincent Bacote is Professor of Theology and the Director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics at Wheaton College, where he has taught since 2000. He is the author of The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life and numerous articles on theology, culture, and public ethics. Dr. Bacote is also the narrator and co-creator of the documentary Black + Evangelical, which explores the lived experiences of Black Christians within evangelical institutions. A frequent conference speaker and commentator, he writes at vincentbacote.com and is known for equipping the church to engage faithfully in political and cultural life without falling into ideological captivity. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Joash Thomas challenges Western Christians to recover a holistic vision of justice rooted in the way of Jesus. Drawing from his new book The Justice of Jesus, Joash contrasts retributive and restorative justice, highlights the global church’s theological depth, and critiques the “colonizer’s gospel” that prioritizes soul salvation over bodily and communal healing. He explores how colonization, individualism, and Christian nationalism have distorted the church’s witness, and offers a practical, hopeful path forward that centers marginalized neighbors, deepens civic discipleship, and calls the church to follow the Spirit’s lead toward holistic restoration.About JoashJoash Thomas is a Canadian-based speaker, advocate, and ordained minister focused on biblical justice, global theology, and civic discipleship. A former political consultant in Georgia, he now works at the intersection of faith and international human rights. Joash is the author of The Justice of Jesus: Liberating Our Broken Communities, Healing the Oppressed, and Redeeming Our Politics, and he leads weekly reflections through his Substack, Jesus, Justice, and Joash. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

The Disarming Leviathan podcast returns with a new season focused on helping Christians navigate political discipleship and civic engagement in a polarized world.In this preview episode, host Caleb Campbell introduces upcoming guests—including Dr. Carmen Imes, Dr. Vince Bacote, and Joash Thomas—and outlines the season’s goal: equipping listeners to bear faithful witness to the Kingdom of God while loving their Christian nationalist neighbors, especially during the relational tensions of the holiday season. Check out the Ministry Leader’s Companion to Disarming Leviathan (now available with training videos). Use the code Levi25 for 20% off and a chance to win your very own Levi (the most disarming Leviathan around).Also, you are invited to the Communities of Flourishing conference in Phoenix on February 28, featuring speakers Malcolm Foley, Kit Danley, Linda Morris, David Swanson, and Skye Jethani. Buy your tickets by Dec 23rd to receive the Advent discount! Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of Disarming Leviathan, biblical scholar Dr. Carmen Joy Imes joins Caleb Campbell to unpack her latest book, Becoming God’s Family: Why the Church Still Matters. Together, they explore how the Bible casts a radical vision of the church as a true spiritual family—one that defies the shallow belonging offered by partisan movements, nationalism, and consumer identity. Imes argues that the sibling language of the New Testament is not metaphorical but mission-critical: believers are called to live as brothers and sisters with real reciprocity, responsibility, and hospitality. She names the dangers of authoritarian leadership and culture war churches, while offering a better path—one where diverse believers share life, worship, and bread, even across political and class divides. Dr. Carmen Joy Imes:Dr. Carmen Joy Imes is Associate Professor of Old Testament at Biola University and a leading voice in biblical theology and public discipleship. She is the author of Bearing God’s Name, Being God’s Image, and her newest release, Becoming God’s Family: Why the Church Still Matters (IVP, 2024). Her work traces major biblical themes through Scripture to address contemporary challenges facing the church, including isolation, authoritarianism, and political idolatry. Dr. Imes also produces weekly content on her YouTube series Torah Tuesday, writes on Substack, and speaks widely at churches, conferences, and seminaries. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this special crossover episode, Caleb joins a conversation with scholars Paul D. Miller, David Koyzis, and Michael W. Austin to help the church understand and respond to Christian Nationalism. Together they unpack what Christian Nationalism is, how it differs from patriotism, and why it poses serious challenges to the gospel’s witness. They also explore related topics like Abraham Kuyper’s sphere sovereignty, the Seven Mountain Mandate, and natural law, offering clarity for pastors, lay leaders, and everyday believers seeking faithful civic engagement.Co-hosted by the J29 Coalition, this episode serves as an “Evangelical’s Guide to American Christian Nationalism,” a practical primer for those wanting to move beyond fear and toward a political discipleship rooted in love of God and neighbor. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this special episode, Caleb joins the team from Bodies Behind the Bus for a conversation about faith, justice, and compassion in the face of political division. Together, they share a joint fundraiser supporting a DACA recipient fighting to stay with their family in the U.S.As we enter this season, we can be about the business of loving our neighbor through acts of service, generosity, and kindness. Please consider donating to ease the burden for an immigrant family with DACA status pursuing legal pathways to safety.To donate and support the family mentioned in this episode, click here.Over the next few weeks, the Disarming Leviathan Podcast will feature collaborative projects like this one, with new interviews launching in the new year. Subscribe on Substack or visit disarmingleviathan.com to stay connected. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribeIn this episode, Phil Herndon examines how purveyors of American Christian Nationalism leverage the emotions of their audiences to gain allegiance, power, and money.This episode will not only help you recognize when your loved ones are experiencing emotions like rage, anxiety, and fear, but also provide you with practical tools for fostering peaceful, constructive conversations.About PhilPhil uses a dynamic approach to help his clients recover their hearts and redeem their stories. His therapeutic approach is grounded in the Spiritual Root System™, and is informed by the work of Irvin Yalom, Curt Thompson, Dan Siegel, and Dan Allender. He also integrates perspectives from Judeo-Christian traditions, existential philosophy, and pastoral care. Phil works with individuals who have lost their way through addiction, anxiety, depression, struggles with spirituality, or burnout to walk them through the tumultuous and scary times that are so common to the human experience.Phil worked in the trucking business through college and after college until finally realizing his true passion was helping people walk through difficulties and heartache. He completed graduate school in 1992 with a Master of Arts degree in counseling and religious education.He served as a pastor in Texas for 15 years until joining the Center for Professional Excellence in 2005 where he served as Clinical Director until 2020. Phil became the Clinical Director and co-owner of (what is now) River Tree in 2020 and loves his role in developing, encouraging, and equipping the staff as they walk with people through their life journeys. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribeIn this episode of Disarming Leviathan, Caleb Campbell speaks with Holly Berkley Fletcher about her journey from missionary kid in Kenya to CIA analyst to outspoken critic of Christian nationalism. Holly reflects on her evangelical upbringing, her experiences with authoritarian regimes, and how the language of faith is often weaponized to serve political power. The conversation dives into her personal reckoning with evangelicalism, the ethical challenges of public service, and her fierce commitment to democracy, justice, and telling the truth—even when it's costly.About Holly: Holly Berkley Fletcher is a writer, historian, and former CIA analyst who brings a unique voice to conversations about faith, politics, and public life. Raised as a missionary kid in Kenya and trained as an American historian, Holly spent nearly two decades working as an Africa analyst for the CIA. She now writes at the intersection of theology, democracy, and justice, contributing regularly to The Bulwark and her Substack, A Zebra Without Stripes. Her forthcoming book, The Missionary Kids, explores the personal and political legacy of evangelical missions and what it means to grow up in a faith tradition grappling with power. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Caleb joins Dr. Jemar Tisby for a joint podcast that explores the history of American Christian Nationalism and the church and ways that we can engage those who are imbibing this harmful ideology. About Jemar TisbyJemar Tisby (BA, University of Notre Dame; MDiv, Reformed Theological Seminary) s the New York Times bestselling author of The Color of Compromise and the award-winning How to Fight Racism. He is a historian who studies race, religion, and social movements, and serves as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically Black college. He is also the founder of The Witness, Inc. an organization dedicated to Black uplift from a Christian perspective. He has written for national news outlets such as The Atlantic, the Washington Post, and the Religion News Service. He has offered television commentary on CNN and is frequently called upon to provide expert insight on current events related to race and Christianity. He has spoken nationwide at colleges, universities, and other organizations.About Caleb CampbellPastor Campbell graduated Summa Cum Laude with a Master of Arts in Ministry from Phoenix Seminary in 2015. Caleb is currently a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary. He has served at Desert Springs Bible Church, in Phoenix, AZ since 2006, serving as Lead Pastor since 2015. He also serves on the board of United Pastors of Arizona, is the state-wide regional director of the Surge Network, and is one of the founders of the J29 Coalition. He has spoken at events hosted by Acts 29, the African American Christian Clergy Coalition, American Values Coalition, Surge Network, Grand Canyon University, Converge Arizona, Young Life, and Phoenix Seminary Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribeDr. Katharine Hayhoe shares her experience as a climate scientist and gives some practical coaching on how we can cultivate healthy conversations with friends and family with whom we fundamentally disagree. About KatharineKatharine Hayhoe is a climate scientist and chief scientist for The Nature Conservancy. She is also the Endowed Professor in Public Policy and Public Law and Paul W. Horn Distinguished Professor at Texas Tech University. She has been named a United Nations Champion of the Earth and one of Time’s 100 Most Influential People, and serves as the climate ambassador for the World Evangelical Alliance. Katharine was a lead author for the US Second, Third, and Fourth National Climate Assessments, hosts the PBS digital series Global Weirding, and has written for The New York Times. Her TED Talk “The Most Important Thing You Can Do to Fight Climate Change: Talk About It” has been viewed over 5 million times. She has a BSc in physics and astronomy from the University of Toronto and an MS and a PhD in atmospheric science from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe—Pastor and author David Swanson joins us for a discussion about the ways that racism, tribalism, and nationalism are impacting the American Church, and how we can work to be peacemakers in the midst of division. About David SwansonDavid is an author and the founding pastor of New Community Covenant Church who lives with his family on the South Side of Chicago. He is the founder and CEO of New Community Outreach, a non-profit organization dedicated to healing community trauma through restorative practices.David’s first book, Rediscipling the White Church: From Cheap Diversity to True Solidarity was published with InterVarsity Press in 2020. His forthcoming book with IVP, Plundered: The Tangled Roots of Racial and Environmental Injustice, will be published in October, 2024.David is a former Director of Church Planting for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is a graduate of Montreat College (BS, 1999), Wheaton College Graduate School (MA, 2003), and North Park Theological Seminary (MDiv, 2023). He keeps track of what he’s reading here and on most Tuesday mornings you’ll find him wandering around Jackson Park looking for birds. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribePastor Steve Bezner joins us to discuss how American culture has influenced the American Church's view of Jesus. We explore some of the distorted views of Jesus, including 'Christian Nationalist Jesus.' He also gives some coaching on how we can invite people back to a robust, biblical view of Jesus. Preorder Steven’s book, Your Jesus is Too American today! About Steve BeznerSteve Bezner (PhD, Baylor University) is senior pastor of Houston Northwest Church in Houston, Texas. He is a local leader and participant in Multi-Faith Neighbors Network, where he builds bridges with Muslims and Jews, and he serves on the board of the Houston Church Planting Network. He also trains church planters through Glocalnet, serves on the executive committee of Texas Baptists, and is an adjunct professor at George W. Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor University. Bezner lives in Houston with his wife and two sons. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe—Bible scholar Dr. Timothy Gombis joins Caleb for an exploration of the themes of power and government in the New Testament and how they can shape our understanding of American Christian Nationalism. Caleb shares a few pieces from his Christian Nationalist Bible collection.About Timothy GombisTimothy G. Gombis (PhD, University of St. Andrews, Scotland) is professor of New Testament at Grand Rapids Theological Seminary, in Grand Rapids, MI. He is author of Paul: A Guide for the Perplexed (T&T Clark, 2010) and The Drama of the Ephesians: Participating in the Triumph of God (IVP Academic, 2010). He regularly writes about Christian identity, biblical studies, books, movies, music, sports, and culture on his blog, Faith Improvised ( https://timgombis.com). Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe