The Convocation Unscripted

On this episode, the Convocation team talks about the large new survey by that demonstrates that most Americans want a more humane approach to immigration policy and do not support indiscriminate mass deportation, the construction of concentration camps on U.S. soil, and the increasingly aggressive and violent tactics of ICE. Jemar gives a preview of his new short documentary, “Jesus Was a Migrant.” For the film, he traveled to the U.S.-Mexico border to examine the theological crisis at the heart of American Christianity — and what it means when a nation built on faith turns its back on the most vulnerable. We wrap with theological reflections about the abandonment of any pretense of trying to make government humane by this administration in both domestic and foreign policy.Follow on BlueSky:https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack:The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

On this episode we talk about the recent bombshell story from the New York Times, “Cesar Chavez, a Civil Rights Icon, Is Accused of Abusing Girls for Years.” We note that these stories of men abusing women and children cut across ideology and reflect a broader brokenness in our culture. But we note that one thing that matters always: how institutions react when these kinds of credible, corroborated allegations come to light. Do they take them seriously or protect the powerful men at the top. We also talk about the new Varieties of Democracy (full V-Dem report here) that shows the massive decline in the United States as a liberal democracy over the past year under the Trump administration, which has by these metrics wiped out 60 years of democratic progress. Finally, we talk about the Republican push to pass the so-called SAVE Act, whose draconian voter identification measures would dramatically restrict the ability especially of women to vote.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

This week, we open the conversation with reflections on the challenges of living daily life amid the onslaught of horrific news, so often these days instigated by our own government. We reflect on normalcy—focusing on daily tasks of caring for family, tending friendships, and connecting with local community—as a mode of resistance. We then turn to address the war in Iran, particularly how Pete Hegseth and the Trump administration are glorifying domination and violence itself through their rhetoric and recent propaganda videos officially released by the White House. And we discuss the administration's utter lack of moral justification for the war, including how Trump has failed virtually all criteria from the just war theory tradition in Christian ethics—as two prominent American Catholic cardinals pointed out this week.Follow on BlueSky:https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack:The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

In this TCU+LIVE conversation, we covered a lot of ground. We opened with the significance of Trump’s falling favorability numbers in a brand new survey, especially among white non-evangelical Protestants and Latino Protestants. We also talked about Pete Hegseth’s dangerous commitments to Christian Nationalism and how it is entangled in the War in Iran—noting that the story is much more complex than some of the viral hot takes circulating on social media. For the theology nerds, we unpack the critical differences between “seven mountains mandate” dominionism and premillennial dispensationalism (but we don’t get too far into the weeds!). We also spent the latter half of the show answering listeners’ insightful questions. Thanks so much for all of you who posted, and if we didn’t get to your question, we’ll hope to next time.

On this episode, we discussed the deep logic of white Christian nationalism. It’s all about protecting the hierarchy: men over women, white people over all people of color, straight people over LGBTQ people (when they are even acknowledged at all). So this week, when we saw Doug Wilson—who has been an apologist for white Confederate slave-owning society and an advocate of stripping the right to vote for women—invited by Pete Hegseth to preach at an explicitly Christian worship service at the Pentagon, we were disturbed but not surprised. It’s all about defending the hierarchy. Robby unpacked a major new PRRI survey on Christian nationalism, which demonstrate how strongly these views are correlated to denials of systemic racism, patriarchal gender roles, anti-LGBTQ attitudes, and anti-immigrant attitudes. We wrapped with an appreciation for the life and witness of Jesse Jackson Jr., who died this week. Jemar shared his personal experience meeting Jackson and described his vision of a rainbow coalition that contrasted with white Christian nationalism.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

On this episode, we discussed the ways white femininity has been weaponized by Trump and the MAGA movement, along with the erasure of climate change as a scientific conclusion by the Trump administration. Pam Bondi’s recent contentious testimony before Congress, which was widely criticized for its disrespectful demeanor towards Democratic lawmakers, provided a vivid example of conservative white feminine performativity. Kristin gave us a sneak peek into a chapter in her forthcoming book, Live Laugh Love, titled "Lipstick on Pitbulls," which analyzes such performances. There she notes how ideals of white femininity and beauty are marshaled to justify authoritarianism and state violence. We wrap the episode with a discussion of the U.S. government's official erasure of the scientific consensus that climate change is real, which removes the EPA’s authority to regulate emissions. We note that this remarkable action represents half a century of collusion between the oil industries and the Christian right. Finally, we close with some thoughts about resistance and experiencing Lent in these challenging times.

In this TCU+LIVE conversation, we talked about Trump’s shameful, rambling speech at the National Prayer Breakfast, where he talked three times longer than his allotted slot. His remarks were filled with lies about losing the 2020 election, cursing, threats to churches and nonprofits who disagreed with him, and the demonization of Democrats. We’ve come a long, long way from the days when conservative Christians were proudly talking about themselves as “values voters”—to the point where few white evangelical Trump supporters are even attempting to explain away his markedly unChristian behavior and rhetoric. Would it even be problematic anymore if all white Christian Trump supporters watched the entire speech and were asked, about every 10 minutes, to personally affirm that this is the man they believe is most fit to lead and the vision they want for the country? And if not, what does that mean for the moral state of white conservative Christianity? Be sure to watch the second half, where we took questions from our subscribers across a range of issues: continued violence by ICE, Trump’s threats to seize the midterm elections, and more.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

In this episode of The Convocation Unscripted, Jemar, Diana, and Kristin talk about what it means—and what it costs—to speak up in a moment of moral and political crisis. Reflecting on the Southern Lights Conference, Alex Pretti, and midterm elections, they explore why so many people who once remained silent are now finding their voices, and what finally pushes individuals past fear, caution, and self-protection. The discussion examines the forces that keep people quiet—especially within Christian communities—and challenges the tendency to weigh personal risk more heavily than the harm caused by silence. The episode calls listeners to move beyond delayed outrage and performative concern toward courageous, faithful witness rooted in solidarity, truth-telling, and moral responsibility.

This week we talk about the recent autopsy reports that reveal the escalating brutality of ICE. Renee Goode’s autopsy revealed that she was shot four times in rapid succession. Another autopsy report this week revealed that the death of migrant Geraldo Lunas Campos, who was in ICE custody at an internment camp in Texas, was unlikely a suicide as the government claimed but caused by wounds consistent with strangling by a third party. A witness testified seeing Campos handcuffed, restrained by multiple guards who squeezed his neck until he passed out. We also emphasized that a small number of Republicans in Congress could potentially stop these immoral, harmful policies. We also discussed the ICE protest that interrupted a church service in Minnesota and the historical parallels between those actions and Civil Rights campaigns that targeted white churches in the 1960s. In the wake of Martin Luther King Jr. Day, we concluded by reflecting on the hope of his message and his faith that "right temporarily defeated is stronger than evil triumphant."Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

Following our conversation last week about the senseless, unjustified killing of Renee Good by and ICE agent in Minneapolis, this week we bring you a special episode of The Convocation Unscripted with our first ever guest, Rev. Angela Denker. Angela is an ordained Lutheran pastor in Minneapolis (her full bio is below) and author of DISCIPLES OF WHITE JESUS: The Radicalization of American Boyhood. We’ve been fans of Angela’s courageous writing and preaching for years, and this week she gives us firsthand experience and reporting of the brutality and chaos that has been unleashed on Minneapolis residents by ICE and CBP, which combined now outnumber local city law enforcement by a factor of five. This invasion of an American city based on the thinnest pretext—over the protests of both the mayor and the governor—is a dress rehearsal for Trump’s dream of authoritarian rule across the country. Angela gives us both the horror and the hope from the faithful resistance. You don’t want to miss this one.Rev. Angela Denker is an award-winning author, ELCA Lutheran pastor, and veteran journalist. Her first book, Red State Christians, was the 2019 Silver Foreword Indies award-winner for political and social sciences. Her second book, Disciples of White Jesus: The Radicalization of American Boyhood, came out on March, 25, 2025. She is a former columnist for the Minnesota Star Tribune and has written for many publications, including Sports Illustrated, the Washington Post, and FORTUNE magazine, and has appeared on CNN, BBC, SkyNews, and NPR to share her research on politics and Christian Nationalism. Pastor Angela lives with her husband, Ben, and two sons in Minneapolis, where she is a sought-after speaker on Christian Nationalism and its theological and cultural roots. She also serves Lake Nokomis Lutheran Church in Minneapolis as Pastor of Visitation and Public Theology. You can read more of her work on Christian Nationalism, American culture, social issues, journalism, theology, and parenting on her Substack, I'm Listening.

Our first conversation of the year was a heavy one. We mourned the senseless, unjustified killing of Renee Good by and ICE agent in Minneapolis, noting that the chain of events that lead to her death is anchored in Trump’s racist lies about Somali immigrants. And we also warned that the $170 billion of our tax dollars that ICE received to dramatically expand operations on U.S. soil in 2026 will mean that this lie-fueled violence is likely coming to a community near you this year. We also saluted the Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey for courageous calling out the lies about both the situation in the city and about the circumstances of Good’s killing; the courageous clergy such as Rev. Angela Denker who are speaking out; and the everyday citizens who are standing up. We wrap by noting that Christian faithfulness in this regime will mean taking risks for justice and truth in 2026.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

This week we discuss the explosive Vanity Fair article and accompanying photographs that reveal unflattering images of Trump administration officials, including Susie Wiles, Marco Rubio, and Karoline Leavitt. The photographer, Christopher Anderson, defended his work as authentic journalism rather than celebrity-style portraiture. The article and the backslash against it exposed the vanity and vulnerability of authoritarian regimes, who need to maintain the facade of power. We talk about how this vanity is at odds with the humility of Advent and how the White House and the Department of Homeland Security have distorted and defiled the message of Christmas to celebrate the cruelty of their mass deportation scheme. We close by highlighting a recent “Choose Love, Not ICE” ad—produced by Interfaith Alliance in partnership with Protect Democracy and set to the tune of “O Holy Night”—is pushing back.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

Why his latest rants signal a deeper unravelingWe’re living in a moment where authoritarian power is panicking, elites are hiding, and ordinary people are the ones finding their voice.You could read Trump’s outburst against Somali immigrants as just another racist rant.But if you listen more closely you can also hear it as a panic siren from an authoritarian project that knows it’s slipping, even as everyday people quietly find their courage again.Trump’s racist tirade against Somali immigrants wasn’t new, but as Diana Butler Bass, Kristin Du Mez, and I unpacked on this episode of The Convocation Unscripted, it landed differently.This wasn’t just more ugly rhetoric. It sounded like fear. It sounded like a regime running out of tricks and grasping for one of its oldest tools: dehumanizing immigrants to rally its base.But while the president doubles down, something else is happening on the ground.Diana described a subtle but powerful shift in public spaces. Strangers are groaning out loud at the news, trading comments in security lines, and saying what they used to only text in group chats.In places like Chicago, Nashville, and beyond, people aren’t just talking—they’re organizing, marching, and even turning Home Depot product returns into a protest tactic.Meanwhile, the elites—on both sides of the aisle—feel further away than ever.Bubble-wrapped in security details, donor circles, and curated media, they seem unable or unwilling to name what’s happening: an authoritarian movement testing the limits daily, and a public that is more awake than the political class wants to admit.Kristin put it bluntly: they keep pushing because they keep getting away with it.When there finally is pushback—a lawsuit, an impeachment article, a rare moment of moral clarity—the response is denial, distraction, or outright lies. But beneath that, the fear is showing. The grip is loosening.If you want to hear how all this connects to Advent, empire, and light breaking through the darkness, you’ll want to watch the full conversation.Register to see Jemar, Diana, and more at the Southern Lights Conference.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

Just this week, Trump and his administration have shrugged off the brutal 2018 murder of a Washington Post Journalist and welcomed the person the CIA identified as its mastermind to the White House, called for the death penalty and hanging for six democratic sitting members of Congress, and—over at the Coast Guard under the Department of Homeland Security--downgraded nooses and swastikas from hate symbols to “potentially divisive” objects. We talk about the positive correlations between this increasingly violent rhetoric and Christian nationalism, and the inexplicable tendency of some prominent journalists to refuse to acknowledge the reality of this movement or the scholarship supporting its existence and its threat to democracy. We close with an off-beat segment on the rise of AI-powered chatbots that purport to let Christians text with Jesus. But which Jesus has AI trained itself to emulate? All is not what it seems here.Check out Jemar's new podcast: The Justice Briefing - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-justice-briefing-with-dr-jemar-tisby/id1460240056Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

This week, Diana was on the road promoting her new book, A Beautiful Year, but Robby, Kristin, and Jemar took advantage of all being in Washington, DC, together and recorded this special episode from PRRI’s new office. We talked about our disappointment at the capitulation of a handful of Democratic officials, who voted with Republicans to end the record-breaking government shutdown—without securing much in exchange. At best the deal only temporarily restores SNAP funding and reopens the government for six weeks, and it secured no concrete assurances on government funding to protect Americans who depend on Obamacare against skyrocketing health insurance premiums. And worse, Democrats seemed to offer no strong moral case for their actions. We also talked about the bombshell partial release of a trove of emails from the Epstein files, which seemed to show that Trump knew about the pedophilia sex ring that Jeffrey Epstein was running for powerful men. We noted that the Epstein files are creating rare fissures within the MAGA movement, especially since Trump encouraged the conspiracy theories of the QAnon movement during his campaign. But it is still to early to know whether either condoning or failing to protect children from pedophiles would be a grave enough sin for the MAGA faithful to break with Trump, or whether they will continue to find ways to rationalize his immoral behavior.

After a month of heavy travel, the Convocation team was all back together for our live show, which we do the first Thursday of every month. This week—for two weeks in a row—we brought mostly good news to the conversation. We talked about the most important lesson from the blue wave 2025 election results: that an authoritarian future is not inevitable. Just one year into the Trump presidency, there are signs that everyday Americans are stepping up to say that Trump’s lawlessness, chaos, cruelty, and corruption are not in fact what they want in a president. In Virginia, for example, while 80% of white evangelicals continued to vote Republican, 7% of 2024 Trump voters flipped and supported the democratic candidate for governor, Abigail Spanberger. The exit poll breaks by race and gender showed that majorities of every subgroup voted for Spanberger except white men. Latinos in Virginia and New Jersey, who moved toward Trump in 2024 largely over economic concerns, moved strongly back into the democratic column because of both continued economic stress and objections to ICE and harsh immigration enforcement. And importantly, people participated in the democratic process. Turnout was high for an off-year election, which was conducted freely and fairly. We spent the last half of the call taking questions from the live audience.

The group discussed Robert's manuscript feedback from his editor and Diana's experience promoting her book "A Beautiful Year" at events, leading to a decision to focus the podcast segment on exploring Robert's book themes rather than PRI studies. The panel shared holiday traditions and decorations, particularly focusing on interfaith celebrations and the liturgical calendar. The main discussion centered on Diana's new book "A Beautiful Year," which examines alternative narratives to Christian nationalism through the lens of the liturgical calendar, with participants exploring its themes of hope, harmony, and peace while discussing its academic and theological foundations.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

This week, we spent most of the show talking about some important signs that the resistance to Trump’s authoritarianism is finding its feet. This week MIT and eight other universities stood together and refused to sign agreements to allow the Trump administration control over their admissions, research, and teaching in exchange for preferential treatment in disbursement of government research funding. Over at the Department of Defense, all five major broadcast news organizations—including Pete Hegseth’s previous home Fox News (must have been awkward!)—refused to sign a document that would give the government control over stories they wrote about the military and DOD. While their reporters were required to turn in their security badges, they vowed to continued their critical reporting from outside the building. There continues, of course, to be some disturbing news, such as the chilling racist, homophobic, sexually violent, and antisemitic language uncovered among a large, ongoing Young Republicans’ private group chat. We wrapped by talking about the importance of the upcoming No Kings rallies scheduled all over the country.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

This week, we discuss the shameful Christian celebration of ICE brutality and violence in the wake of ICE agents shooting Rev. David Black, pastor of First Presbyterian Church in Chicago, in the head with pepper balls—while he was praying and inviting ICE officers to repent of their complicity in violence. We noted that the Department of Homeland Security has explicitly been combining Bible verses and Christian imagery with violent imagery and memes, part of a dangerous broader trend within evangelical circles to turn Christianity away from love and empathy and toward violence. We also spent 30 minutes responding to a wide range of questions from those of you who attended the live webinar.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

Secretary of Defense (not calling it "War" unless Congress changes it) called a meeting of the U.S. military's top generals from around the world. In it, he spoke of what he called the "warrior ethos." Far from building on the military's vaunted traditions of honor and service, Hegseth harped on how the military became "woke" and how he didn't want any more "beardos" (men with beards) in the military. He had a lot to say about the size of people's waists and physical fitness. As usual, the hosts--Diana, Kristin, and Jemar--find historical and religious connections. We talk about the creation of the white evangelical vision of masculinity, the reversal of the mythology of Robert E. Lee as the "reluctant warrior," and Christian masculinity in pop culture. We also talk about the latest mass shooting at a Church of Latter-Day Saints congregation in Michigan. Lot's of bad news, but also some reasons to celebrate that we talk about to round out the show.