The Convocation Unscripted

This week, Diana was on the road promoting her new book, A Beautiful Year, but Robby, Kristin, and Jemar took advantage of all being in Washington, DC, together and recorded this special episode from PRRI’s new office. We talked about our disappointment at the capitulation of a handful of Democratic officials, who voted with Republicans to end the record-breaking government shutdown—without securing much in exchange. At best the deal only temporarily restores SNAP funding and reopens the government for six weeks, and it secured no concrete assurances on government funding to protect Americans who depend on Obamacare against skyrocketing health insurance premiums. And worse, Democrats seemed to offer no strong moral case for their actions. We also talked about the bombshell partial release of a trove of emails from the Epstein files, which seemed to show that Trump knew about the pedophilia sex ring that Jeffrey Epstein was running for powerful men. We noted that the Epstein files are creating rare fissures within the MAGA movement, especially since Trump encouraged the conspiracy theories of the QAnon movement during his campaign. But it is still to early to know whether either condoning or failing to protect children from pedophiles would be a grave enough sin for the MAGA faithful to break with Trump, or whether they will continue to find ways to rationalize his immoral behavior.

After a month of heavy travel, the Convocation team was all back together for our live show, which we do the first Thursday of every month. This week—for two weeks in a row—we brought mostly good news to the conversation. We talked about the most important lesson from the blue wave 2025 election results: that an authoritarian future is not inevitable. Just one year into the Trump presidency, there are signs that everyday Americans are stepping up to say that Trump’s lawlessness, chaos, cruelty, and corruption are not in fact what they want in a president. In Virginia, for example, while 80% of white evangelicals continued to vote Republican, 7% of 2024 Trump voters flipped and supported the democratic candidate for governor, Abigail Spanberger. The exit poll breaks by race and gender showed that majorities of every subgroup voted for Spanberger except white men. Latinos in Virginia and New Jersey, who moved toward Trump in 2024 largely over economic concerns, moved strongly back into the democratic column because of both continued economic stress and objections to ICE and harsh immigration enforcement. And importantly, people participated in the democratic process. Turnout was high for an off-year election, which was conducted freely and fairly. We spent the last half of the call taking questions from the live audience.

The group discussed Robert's manuscript feedback from his editor and Diana's experience promoting her book "A Beautiful Year" at events, leading to a decision to focus the podcast segment on exploring Robert's book themes rather than PRI studies. The panel shared holiday traditions and decorations, particularly focusing on interfaith celebrations and the liturgical calendar. The main discussion centered on Diana's new book "A Beautiful Year," which examines alternative narratives to Christian nationalism through the lens of the liturgical calendar, with participants exploring its themes of hope, harmony, and peace while discussing its academic and theological foundations.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

This week, we spent most of the show talking about some important signs that the resistance to Trump’s authoritarianism is finding its feet. This week MIT and eight other universities stood together and refused to sign agreements to allow the Trump administration control over their admissions, research, and teaching in exchange for preferential treatment in disbursement of government research funding. Over at the Department of Defense, all five major broadcast news organizations—including Pete Hegseth’s previous home Fox News (must have been awkward!)—refused to sign a document that would give the government control over stories they wrote about the military and DOD. While their reporters were required to turn in their security badges, they vowed to continued their critical reporting from outside the building. There continues, of course, to be some disturbing news, such as the chilling racist, homophobic, sexually violent, and antisemitic language uncovered among a large, ongoing Young Republicans’ private group chat. We wrapped by talking about the importance of the upcoming No Kings rallies scheduled all over the country.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

This week, we discuss the shameful Christian celebration of ICE brutality and violence in the wake of ICE agents shooting Rev. David Black, pastor of First Presbyterian Church in Chicago, in the head with pepper balls—while he was praying and inviting ICE officers to repent of their complicity in violence. We noted that the Department of Homeland Security has explicitly been combining Bible verses and Christian imagery with violent imagery and memes, part of a dangerous broader trend within evangelical circles to turn Christianity away from love and empathy and toward violence. We also spent 30 minutes responding to a wide range of questions from those of you who attended the live webinar.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

Secretary of Defense (not calling it "War" unless Congress changes it) called a meeting of the U.S. military's top generals from around the world. In it, he spoke of what he called the "warrior ethos." Far from building on the military's vaunted traditions of honor and service, Hegseth harped on how the military became "woke" and how he didn't want any more "beardos" (men with beards) in the military. He had a lot to say about the size of people's waists and physical fitness. As usual, the hosts--Diana, Kristin, and Jemar--find historical and religious connections. We talk about the creation of the white evangelical vision of masculinity, the reversal of the mythology of Robert E. Lee as the "reluctant warrior," and Christian masculinity in pop culture. We also talk about the latest mass shooting at a Church of Latter-Day Saints congregation in Michigan. Lot's of bad news, but also some reasons to celebrate that we talk about to round out the show. 

On this episode of The Convocation Unscripted, we discuss the big question of how history can help us in the present. The task of historians is to identify patterns in the past in order to fashion a coherent narrative, which tells a story about how we got to the present. Unavoidably, this narrative is constructed in the context of problems in the present and concerns about the future. This week, Diana told us what she had learned about managing violence and conflict from her recent time with activists who were involved in the peace process in Northern Ireland and what might be helpful for our own contemporary troubles. We also discussed the dangers of focusing on “depolarization” as the primary problem, which can float free of any moral commitments, rather than substantive values like protecting democracy.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

On this episode, the Convocation Unscripted team talks about the importance of truth and reality amid the whirlwind of debates about political violence in the aftermath of the horrific murder of Charlie Kirk and the subsequent attacks on free speech, such as the suspension of Jimmie Kimmel by ABC. While acknowledging that all political violence is abhorrent, we also look at the facts about the actual shape of political violence in the US; the government’s own official reports—recently purged from the Department of Justice website—found that “since 1990, far-right extremists have committed far more ideologically motivated homicides than far-left or radical Islamist extremists.” We also discuss the kind of response to Kirk’s assassination that we wish we would have heard from the president and other Republican leaders—one that focused on condemning all political violence and calling us to our better selves rather than fanning the flames and using it as an opportunity to infringe on the Constitutional right to free speech. As Christians, there has never been a time when we need a theology that refuses to separate people into good and evil categories, one that foregrounds grace and love for enemies. We close with an urgent message for all to stand up against political violence and in defense of free speech, while we still have the freedom to do so.

We love your comments. In fact, we led off our discussion by sharing our reflections on one particular comment.Robby shared,[This person was] finding themselves feeling a little jaded by the constant, “You won't believe what just happened now.”And same thing, day after day, after day—kind of a Groundhog Day experience, and worried about getting caught up in the negativity, not being able to think about: What do we do?How can we manage the chaos?How can we manage our own responses to it, and try to get to do something productive in the meantime?So we each shared how we approach our obligation to tell the truth—which necessarily involves a lot of “doom and gloom”—with the equally urgent call to hope and resilience.We do these live episodes once a month, and the best part for us as hosts is interacting with you in real time.So we devote about half the episode to answering your questions.We’re curious: How do you resist feeling jaded when there’s so much bad news? How are you cultivating hope and resilience? Let us know in the comments.A Live Q & A Session with The Convocation UnscriptedFollow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.comFollow on BlueSky:https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack:The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

We start this discussion this week with the tragic news of yet another mass school shooting, this time at a Catholic school in Minneapolis, which killed two children and injured 18 others. In this case, the violence broke out while students were gathered for mass. We discuss the trauma that such events create for children and families, when safe spaces like schools and sacred places like churches are targeted. And we lament the way this shooting is already being exploited by those on the political right, given that the shooter was a transgender woman, even though most mass shootings and acts of domestic terrorism have been perpetrated by straight white men. We also discussed the continued march toward authoritarianism with the firing of the CDC director, Susan Monarez, over Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s insistence on restricting COVID-19 vaccines. Finally, we talk about President Trump’s recent preoccupation with “getting into heaven.” As with everything Trump, his musings betray a transactional view of heaven, a far cry from the doctrines of repentance and grace in the Protestant Christian faith he claims to have. We note the significance of a lack of concern by any evangelical leaders over Trump’s crass, heretical comments about salvation.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

In this episode, we discuss the influence of James Dobson, who died this week, on evangelical Christianity and the Christian Right political movement. Dobson's writings, particularly his parenting guide Dare to Discipline, promoted harsh punishment of children and patriarchal norms. Dobson’s vision of strict discipline and hierarchical authority, popularized through is massive Focus on the Family media empire, laid the groundwork for the current white evangelical movement and the MAGA worldview. Diana shared her personal experience of being targeted by Dobson in a FOF newsletter, which led to death threats. We also discussed the unprecedented deployment of military troops in Washington, D.C., where both Diana and Robby live, which Trump falsely claimed was necessary due to high crime rates, despite actual crime being at a 30-year low. This occupation of our nation’s capital—and its justification with the invocation of a fake emergency based on lies—are straight out of the dictator's playbook. We close with the need to keep resisting and speaking out.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

In this episode, The Convocation Unscripted team talked about Trump’s attacks on universities and the tragedy of the capitulation of Columbia University, who has agreed to pay the government $200 million and to submit to the oversight of a “Resolution Monitor,” specified in the agreement to be Bart Schwartz of Guidepost Solutions (yes, the same firm hired by the SBC Executive Committee in the wake of the denominations sexual abuse scandals), who also happens to be—wait for it—the sitting CEO of Chicken Soup for the Soul. That seems a perfect example of the absurdity of these times. We also took a step back to highlight the underlying MAGA worldview of authoritarian hierarchy and contrast that with the biblical vision of Acts 2, where the Holy Spirit's gift was given specifically to oppressed, colonized people in the Roman Empire. The conversation concluded with a discussion of the importance of being morally responsive to current events, even when it feels overwhelming, emphasizing the value of community and truth in times of despair. We only have jokingly suggested a tagline for the podcast could be, “Come for the despair, stay for the community.”Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

This week, Robby, Diana, and Jemar talk about the ongoing revelations about President Trump’s connections to Jeffrey Epstein, and the ways Trump’s previous encouragement of QAnon conspiracy theories is now coming back to bite him. Nearly half of Republicans who most trust far-right news are QAnon believers, according to PRRI data, and this group isn’t letting the story go. We also discuss the blatantly white supremacist memes that are being posted by the Department of Homeland Security on its official social media channels—featuring white settler colonists with messages like “Remember your homeland’s heritage.” The conversation concluded with discussions about the dire food shortage in Gaza and the children we are seeing starve before our eyes. Jemar emphasizing the importance of Christian engagement and action, and pointed to an upcoming conference, Church at the Crossroads, scheduled for September 11-13, which aims to engage American Christians in addressing the crisis and promoting justice. Links:https://prri.org/spotlight/the-rise-and-impact-of-q-the-2024-election-from-the-view-of-qanon-believers/https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2025/jul/23/dhs-art-post-propagandahttps://churchatthecrossroads.com/

In this deeply honest episode of The Convocation Unscripted, historians Dr. Jemar Tisby, Kristin Kobes Du Mez, and Diana Butler Bass gather to reflect on the emotional toll of studying and speaking out on faith, politics, and power in America. As cultural crises mount, they explore the personal and professional exhaustion that comes from repeatedly warning of societal dangers—only to watch them unfold.Together, they ask: What does it mean to persist as public voices of conscience? How do we process the discouragement that comes with being right too soon? And where might we find resilience in the face of recurring injustice?

Religion is always part of the story--even when it comes to U.S. foreign policy. Trump's decision to bomb nuclear sites in Iran, an action taken after Israel's military actions in the nation, are not simply geopolitical in their dimensions. Many Christians uncritically support the modern state of Israel because of a theological belief system called premillennial dispensationalism. Diana, Kristin, and Jemar dig into the history, the culture and the implications of this ideology. They also discuss ongoing ICE human rights abuses and the surprising projected victory of Zohran Mamdani as the Democratic Party nominee for mayor of New York City. Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

The hosts of Convocation Unscripted discussed the tragic political assassination of Minnesota Rep. Melissa Hortman and her husband, Mark Horton, and the shootings of Minnesota Sen. John Hoffman and his wife, Yvette. It is now clear that these murders were carried out by Vance Boelter, a devout white evangelical Christian who held a degree in practical theology from the unaccredited Christ for the Nations Institute, which is associated with the New Apostolic Reformation movement. This worldview is steeped in spiritual warfare language that casts politics as a battle between God and Satan and in the US portrays Democrats and liberals as possessed by demons and instruments of evil. We talk about our dismay at the lack of outrage, particularly among Republicans and white evangelicals and the depraved used of this awful violence to score political points as Sen. Mike Lee has done. We concluded our conversation with reflections on the importance of Juneteenth, our newest federal holiday, and the importance of white Americans and white Christians particularly to incorporate a celebration of the holiday, and the history it commemorates, as part of our story.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

In this LIVE episode of The Convocation Unscripted, the team talks about the bright line Trump has crossed, as we witness his first overt attempts to turn America into a militarized police state. He’s creating a made-for-TV authoritarian reality show. It’s West Coast/East Coast split screen features Trump’s escalation of conflict by deploying the national guard and the marines in LA and his vain $45 million military parade in DC. It’s classic authoritarian propaganda: chaos and threatening brown people juxtaposed with displays of force and order—all meant to project the great white leader as the king, the only one who can save the country. We also talked about the tragic death of Jennifer Lyell, who survived alleged sexual abuse at the hands of her Southern Baptist seminary professor. After speaking out, she was smeared by church leaders, lost her job, and ultimately lost her life at age 47. Meanwhile, at the SBC annual meeting--amid this loss, the denomination's own refusal to address rampant sexual abuse in its own ranks, and the attacks on our democracy by the man Southern Baptists were instrumental in bringing to power--the leaders at the meeting determined that the most pressing issues God was calling them to address were overturning the legality of marriage equality and banning women from being pastors. Finally, we talk about the importance of resistance in all its forms and about empathy and solidarity as the antidote to authoritarianism.Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

In this episode, the Convocation Unscripted team discussed President Trump's bonkers speech and dishonorable behavior at West Point's graduation ceremony and his inappropriate Memorial Day message on Truth Social, where he attacked political opponents rather than honoring fallen soldiers. Diana and Kristin expressed dismay at Trump's lack of respect for military traditions and values--noting that Trump seems only to honor himself while disparaging soldiers who died or were captured as losers and suckers--while Jemar and Robby highlighted how the President is repositioning national holidays as platforms for political propaganda. The discussion concluded with deeper reflections on the values of honor, service, and self-sacrifice and their religious roots. The Convocation Unscripted team also reflected on our recent retreat, where we decided to continue producing the Convocation Unscripted podcast beyond Trump's first 100 days. We heard from you all, and we agree, that TCU is helping provide all of us with a weekly dose of sanity and community. We’ve also decided to open the comments you YouTube, so please share your thoughts below on this episode!

Show Notes: This episode is a whirlwind! With critical headlines stacking up by the day, we sprint through urgent stories shaping our moment: --South African President Ramaphosa’s visit to the White House, --the Supreme Court’s shocking decision on religious schools in Oklahoma, --Pete Hegseth’s dominionist prayer rally, --a tragic shooting in DC raising tensions around antisemitism and Zionism, --and the political targeting of Harvard and international students. Plus, we recap the joy and connection we found at The Convocation Unscripted retreat.Like we said, a whirlwind—but it’s honest, grounded, and deeply necessary.P.S. Here's the LINK to Lisa Sharon Harper's article we reference in the episode.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com

On this episode of The Convocation Unscripted, we discussed the breaking news of the historic appointment of Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost, who chose the name Pope Leo XIV, as the first Pope from the United States. We expressed relief and hope at this unexpected appointment. The early signs are that Prevost--a close associate of Pope Francis who has duel U.S. and Peruvian citizenship and spent more than half his career as a missionary in Peru--will offer a strong moral and theological stance against abuses of power and stand for the dignity of all, particularly immigrants and the poor. We also noted the potential political implications of Pope Leo XIV's appointment, particularly his recent rebuke of J.D. Vance’s distortion of Catholic theology related to “the order of loves” (Ordo Amoris), which Vance attempted to use to justify the Trump administration’s anti-immigrant rhetoric and policies. “JD Vance is wrong,” Prevost posted on his X account. “Jesus doesn’t ask us to rank our love for others.”Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com