Third Space Podcast

Sarah Carter and I hosted a livestream conversation on Substack last week about Pope Leo’s Apostolic Exhortation, Dilexi Te. This was a pretty freewheeling conversation that ranged from giving an overview of the document, sharing our personal reactions to it, and taking listener questions. I had a lot of fun being a part of this and I hope you enjoy listening!Sarah Carter lives in St. Paul MN with her husband and three children. She is the author of Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly on Substack. Sarah has a masters degree in theology from the Saint Paul Seminary in St. Paul, MN with specialization in Catholic social teaching and Pope Francis’ encyclical Laudato si’LINKSRecovering Catholichttps://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/Pope Leo Weeklyhttps://popeleoweekly.substack.com/Dilexi Tehttps://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/apost_exhortations/documents/20251004-dilexi-te.htmlLiving Solidarityhttps://livingsolidarity.comABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I spoke with Sr. Danielle Victoria Lussier and Sr. Theresa Aletheia Noble from the Sisters of the Little Way of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness. We discussed their new audio documentary, Descent Into Light, about adult abuse in the Church. Sr. Theresa and Sr. Danielle have been real sources of consolation for me over the past couple of years, and it’s such an honor to have them on the podcast.The Sisters of the Little Way of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness, are a private association of the faithful intending to become a religious institute. As religious sisters and consecrated women, they live a mission of listening and solidarity with people on the fringes of the Church, especially those who have been wounded, scandalized, or abused by members of the Church.LINKSSisters of the Little Wayhttps://www.sistersofthelittleway.com/Descent Into Light podcasthttps://www.sistersofthelittleway.com/podcastSpiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-b5eABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Sarah Carter and I went into this conversation ready to talk about her excellent article, “The Evangelization Mistake I Made For Years: Missionary discipleship isn’t supposed to feel like this.” And then we spent the first half of our time discussing deconstruction and Henri de Lubac! Sarah is insightful and vulnerable, it was a joy to have this conversation with her. I hope you enjoy it.Sarah Carter lives in St. Paul MN with her husband and three children. She is the author of Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly on Substack. Sarah has a masters degree in theology from the Saint Paul Seminary in St. Paul, MN with specialization in Catholic social teaching and Pope Francis’ encyclical Laudato si’LINKSSarah’s article: The Evangelization Mistake I Made For Yearshttps://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/p/thats-not-what-missionary-discipleRecovering Catholichttps://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/Pope Leo Weeklyhttps://popeleoweekly.substack.com/Ann Yeong’s podcast: Spiritual Abuse in Evangelisation and Discipleshiphttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/spiritual-abuse-in-evangelisation-and-discipleship-with-paul-fahey/Spiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-b5eABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Today, I’m sharing a conversation I had a few weeks ago with Ann Yeong, for her podcast, Becoming Me, about spiritual abuse within the context of evangelization. We talk about how a distorted image of God can lead to a distorted evangelization where we “proclaim God in a way contrary to God himself.” We also discuss the critical role of personal integrity and the healthy use of authority for those in positions of spiritual leadership. It was so good to have this conversation with Ann. I hope you enjoy listening.Ann Yeong is the Founder of Integrō Formation and the host of the Becoming Me podcast. Ann has over 15 years of experience in human and spiritual formation in the Catholic Church in Singapore. She served as Director, Youth & Young Adults Office in the Church of St Mary of the Angels and started the first parish-based Office for New Evangelisation in Singapore in 2012. In 2014, Ann left full-time parish employment to focus on speaking about the interior life and meeting individuals & small groups for spiritual conversation and formation. Ann is particularly passionate about: the lived experience of complex trauma and spiritual/religious trauma’s impact on our relationship with God; the existential crisis of spiritual midlife ‘deconstruction’ that often happens as an integral part of healing and truth-seeking; and developing a mature, trauma-informed Christ-centered contemplative spiritualityLINKSIntegrō Formationhttps://www.integroformation.com/Spiritual Abuse in Evangelisation and Discipleshiphttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/spiritual-abuse-in-evangelisation-and-discipleship-with-paul-fahey/Reclaiming Our Dignity: Healing from Spiritual Abusehttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/reclaiming-our-dignity-healing-from-spiritual-abuse-with-paul-fahey/ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I talked with Colleen Dulle about her new book, “Struck Down, Not Destroyed: Keeping the Faith as a Vatican Reporter.” The book is part journalism and part spiritual memoir. Colleen’s personal stories were deeply genuine in a way that invited me to reflect on my own experiences. In this conversation we talk about what it was like for her to write such a vulnerable memoir. Then we dive into topics like Jean Vanier, the canonization of Carlo Acutis, and how children can shape a person’s experience of God. It’s always great to interview Colleen, I hope you enjoy our conversation.Colleen Dulle is the Vatican Correspondent at America and co-hosts the "Inside the Vatican" podcast. She contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Colleen is also the author of Struck Down, Not Destroyed: Keeping the Faith as a Vatican Reporter (Image, 2025).LINKSLiving Solidaritywww.livingsolidarity.comColleen’s Bookhttps://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/742516/struck-down-not-destroyed-by-colleen-dulle/Colleen’s Websitehttps://www.colleendulle.comSacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform bloghttps://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_houseShaun Blanchard & Colleen Dulle - Pope Leo XIVhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/bonus-episode-shaun-blanchard-andColleen Dulle - Synodality and Spiritual Criseshttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-synodality-and-spiritualColleen Dulle - Fr. Rupnik and Trusting the Popehttps://www.popefrancisgeneration.com/p/colleen-dulle-fr-rupnik-and-trustingABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church's Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This is the first episode of Season Two! And I’m excited to be talking with Sara Larson!I interviewed Sara about a year and a half ago for the Pope Francis Generation podcast to hear about the mission of Awake. A lot has happened since then! I wanted to interview her again to talk about some exciting things Awake is doing. More specifically, I wanted her to be on the first episode of Season Two to have a conversation about what it means to engage in the Church with a preferential option for survivors because that’s at the heart of my mission with Third Space.Sara Larson is the executive director of Awake, an independent Catholic nonprofit organization working for awakening, transformation, and healing from the wounds of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. She also lifts up the voices and stories of abuse survivors in her personal blog, In Spirit and Truth.LINKSAwake’s website:https://www.awakecommunity.orgSara’s In Spirit and Truth blog:https://inspiritandtruth.substack.comSara’s talk for the International Safeguarding Conference:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkhjJsmrt94Pope Leo XIV’s Letter to Awake:https://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/pope-leo-responds-to-letters-from-survivorsABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I had recorded all of Season One before the conclave, but I didn’t want to wait until the fall to talk about Pope Leo. So this is a bonus round-table discussion with two previous guests: Shaun Blanchard and Colleen Dulle. We discuss a variety of topics including how Leo XIV may address Catholic Social Teaching, the abuse crisis, synodality, and the role of women in the Church. I enjoyed this conversation a lot, I hope you do too.Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils. Shaun is the author of several books, including Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023) which he cowrote with Stephen BullivantColleen Dulle is an associate editor at America Media, where she co-hosts the weekly news podcast Inside the Vatican. She writes and edits Vatican news and analysis articles for America Magazine and contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Her forthcoming book, Struck Down, Not Destroyed, on the spiritual crises that result from reporting on the endemic problems of the Catholic Church, will be published by Penguin Random House in Summer 2025.LINKS:Colleen Dulle - Real Reform or Just Vibes?https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/8-colleen-dulle-real-reform-or-justColleen’s Websitehttps://www.colleendulle.comColleen’s Linktreehttps://linktr.ee/colleendulleSacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform bloghttps://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_houseShaun Blanchard - Development and Fundamentalismhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/3-shaun-blanchard-development-andShaun Blanchardhttps://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchardTraditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgyhttps://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican IIhttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-realABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

 This is part two of a two part conversation with Jordan Daniel Wood. In this first part, we discussed a recent lecture that Jordan presented about the development of the Church's teachings on Hell, as well as what he proposed for possible future developments. The second part of our conversation focuses on how a “massa damnata” position on Hell distorts the character of God and his goodness while also leading to a culture of fear and spiritual coercion.If you haven't listened to part one, I would encourage you to go back and listen to that now before you listen to part two.Also, this is the last episode of this season. I'll be taking the summer off. I will have new episodes being released in the fall. Thanks so much for listening.Jordan Daniel Wood is Assistant Professor of Theology at Belmont University, in Nashville, TN. He's the author of The Whole Mystery of Christ: Creation as Incarnation in Maximus Confessor (Notre Dame Press, 2022), and is nearing completion of the first complete English translation of Maximus's letters. He lives outside of Nashville with his lovely wife and four daughters.LINKS:Jordan’s “The Future of Hell” serieshttps://jordandanielwood.substack.com/p/the-future-of-hellPope Francis Generation podcast episode: Jordan Daniel Wood - Hell and Universalismhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/jordan-daniel-wood-hell-and-universalismABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

 This is part one of a two-part conversation with Jordan Daniel Wood. In this first part, we discuss a recent lecture that Jordan presented about the development of the Church's teachings on Hell, as well as what he proposes for possible future developments. The second part of our conversation focuses on how a “massa damnata” position on Hell distorts the character of God and his goodness while also leading to a culture of fear and spiritual coercion.Jordan Daniel Wood is Assistant Professor of Theology at Belmont University, in Nashville, TN. He's the author of The Whole Mystery of Christ: Creation as Incarnation in Maximus Confessor (Notre Dame Press, 2022), and is nearing completion of the first complete English translation of Maximus's letters. He lives outside of Nashville with his lovely wife and four daughters.LINKS:Jordan’s “The Future of Hell” serieshttps://jordandanielwood.substack.com/p/the-future-of-hellPope Francis Generation podcast episode: Jordan Daniel Wood - Hell and Universalismhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/jordan-daniel-wood-hell-and-universalismABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I’m grateful to share this conversation I had with Mark Joseph Williams. Mark shares his story of healing and recovery from clerical abuse, addiction, and trauma. He talks about how God worked in his life in the midst of trauma and how it was through the Catholic Church, the place where he experienced harm, that he also experienced healing. Mark also shares about where he would like to see reform in the Church regarding safeguarding and justice for survivors.Mark and I recorded this conversation during Holy Week, just a few days before the news of Pope Francis’s death.Mark Joseph Williams is a forensic psychological clinician with an MS in social work from Columbia. A clerical abuse survivor, he co-founded Global Collaborative, a survivor led organization, and represents the Archdiocese of Newark as Special Advisor. He also serves on the North American Safeguarding Committee of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops. He and his wife, Karen, have four grown children and seven grandchildren. He is the author of Torrent of Grace: A Catholic Survivor's Healing Journey after Clergy Abuse.LINKS:Torrent of Grace: A Catholic Survivor's Healing Journey after Clergy Abusehttps://www.amazon.com/Torrent-Grace-Catholic-Survivors-Healing/dp/1626985960Field Hospital podcast: Mark Joseph Williamshttps://uscatholic.org/articles/202204/field-hospital-mark-joseph-williams/ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Today, I wanted to share a conversation I had a couple weeks ago with Ann Yeong for her podcast, Becoming Me. After attending one of my workshops, Ann invited me on her podcast to talk about the Church’s teaching on human dignity, spiritual abuse, and navigating the Church in the midst of religious trauma. It was so good to have this conversation with Ann. I hope you enjoy listening.Ann Yeong is the Founder of Integrō Formation and the host of the Becoming Me podcast. Ann has over 15 years of experience in human and spiritual formation in the Catholic Church in Singapore. She served as Director, Youth & Young Adults Office in the Church of St Mary of the Angels and started the first parish-based Office for New Evangelisation in Singapore in 2012.In 2014, Ann left full-time parish employment to focus on speaking about the interior life and meeting individuals & small groups for spiritual conversation and formation. Ann is particularly passionate about: the lived experience of complex trauma and spiritual/religious trauma's impact on our relationship with God; the existential crisis of spiritual midlife 'deconstruction' that often happens as an integral part of healing and truth-seeking; and developing a mature, trauma-informed Christ-centered contemplative spiritualityLINKS:Integrō Formationhttps://www.integroformation.com/Becoming Me podcasthttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/episodes/Watch this episode on Ann’s Youtube channelhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCPH12XvCoMABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In today’s episode, I had a great conversation with Dr. Joseph Stuart about a kind of obscure document from Pope Francis from last year about the renewal of the study of Church history. Joseph and I talked about the ways that ideologies within the Church, both progressive and traditional, misuse history for their own agendas. We also discuss the need for the Church to be honest about its own history of oppression and opposition to human dignity.Joseph T. Stuart, Ph.D., is Full Professor of History and Fellow of Catholic Studies at the University of Mary in Bismarck, North Dakota. His research and publications concern the life and work of cultural historian Christopher Dawson, the cultural history of the Great War, and the Enlightenment of the eighteenth century. He is the author of three books: Christopher Dawson: A Cultural Mind in the Age of the Great War; The Church and the Age of Reformations (1350–1650): Martin Luther, the Renaissance, and the Council of Trent; and Rethinking the Enlightenment: Faith in the Age of Reason.LINKSLetter of His Holiness Pope Francis on the Renewal of the Study of Church Historyhttps://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/letters/2024/documents/20241121-lettera-storia-chiesa.htmlRethinking the Enlightenment: Faith in the Age of Reasonhttps://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Enlightenment-Faith-Age-Reason/dp/1622828224Pope Francis Generation podcast episode with Joseph Stuart - Engaging with Secular Culturehttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/joseph-stuart-engaging-with-secular ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Today, I wanted to share a conversation I had a few weeks ago with Sean Mitchell over on his Youtube channel, Apostolate of the Ear. Sean reached out to me a few months ago to see if I’d be interested in discussing Christian Universalism and explore my belief that a person can be within the bounds of Catholic orthodoxy and have a sure and certain hope that God will save everyone. And I was very happy to agree. Sean was a gracious interviewer and I had a great time talking with him.LINKSApostolate of the Earhttps://www.youtube.com/@apostolateoftheear3719Details for my Spring 2025 spiritual abuse workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-627ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This is Part Two of a two-part conversation with Dr. Marcus Mescher. In the first part of the conversation we discussed Liberation Theology, its origins, development, and relationship with the universal Church. We also spent time reflecting on the life and work of the Dominican theologian, Gustavo Gutiérrez. In Part-Two, we dive into the Church’s teaching on the preferential options for the poor, exploring its roots in Scripture as well as its relationship to the Ordo Amoris. From there we discuss the importance of the Church having a “preferential options for survivors” and what living that out could look like on an institutional and personal level. I really loved this conversation and I hope you enjoy it as well.If you haven’t listened to Part One, I would encourage you to start with that episode.LINKS:Measuring & Exploring Moral Injury Caused by Clergy Sexual Abusehttps://www.xavier.edu/moral-injury-report/“Moral Injury and Clerical Sexual Abuse” PFG podcast with Marcus Mescherhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/marcus-mescher-moral-injury-and-clericalThe Liberation Theology PodcastEp. 5: Catholic Social Teaching and Liberation Theology with Marcus Mescher, Pt. 1https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-5-catholic-social-teaching-and-liberation-theology/id1551431636?i=1000511104797Accountability, Healing, and Trust: Interdisciplinary Reflections for Ministry in the Midst of the Catholic Sex Abuse Crisishttps://litpress.org/Products/8897/Accountability-Healing-and-TrustAwake Bloghttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blogABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This is Part One of a two-part conversation with Dr. Marcus Mescher. In the first part of the conversation we discuss Liberation Theology, its origins, development, and relationship with the universal Church. We also spend time reflecting on the life and work of the Dominican theologian, Gustavo Gutiérrez. In Part-Two, we will dove into the Church’s teaching on the preferential options for the poor, exploring its roots in Scripture as well as its relationship to the Ordo Amoris. From there we discussed the importance of the Church having a “preferential options for survivors” and what living that out could look like on an institutional and personal level. I really loved this conversation and I hope you enjoy it as well.Dr. Marcus Mescher is associate professor of Christian ethics. He holds a Ph.D. from Boston College and specializes in Catholic social teaching and moral formation. His research and writing concentrate in the following areas: human dignity and rights; social/environmental justice for the global common good; how moral agency is impacted by cultural context and digital technology; the moral dimensions of friendship; sexual justice and the ethics of marriage and family life; liberation theology and inclusive solidarity; healing the psychological, spiritual, social, and moral harm caused by clergy abuse. Dr. Mescher has written dozens of popular and academic articles. His current research and writing focus on mental health and moral injury.LINKS:Measuring & Exploring Moral Injury Caused by Clergy Sexual Abusehttps://www.xavier.edu/moral-injury-report/“Moral Injury and Clerical Sexual Abuse” PFG podcast with Marcus Mescherhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/marcus-mescher-moral-injury-and-clericalThe Liberation Theology PodcastEp. 5: Catholic Social Teaching and Liberation Theology with Marcus Mescher, Pt. 1https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-5-catholic-social-teaching-and-liberation-theology/id1551431636?i=1000511104797Accountability, Healing, and Trust: Interdisciplinary Reflections for Ministry in the Midst of the Catholic Sex Abuse Crisishttps://litpress.org/Products/8897/Accountability-Healing-and-TrustAwake Bloghttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blogABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I spoke with Esther Harber. Esther is the Survivor Care Coordinator for Awake and a survivors of sexual assault by a Catholic priest. In this discussion she shares her own story and how her experiences of harm have impacted her faith. Esther has maybe the biggest heart of anyone I’ve ever met. And her capacity to be present with others and hold their stories is profound. I’m so grateful to share our conversation.*A trigger warning that this episode inclues conversation about sexual assaultEsther Harber is a devoted Catholic living with her husband and daughters in Ohio. She is a convert from a fundamentalist Protestant denomination, and was blessed to enter the Catholic Church in 2006. The Lord placed a passion in her heart for sharing the faith, and she spent the better part of her twenties as a lay missionary in New York City. She was also in religious life for a year. During her time as a missionary she experienced spiritual abuse, grooming, and sexual assault by a Catholic priest. After a long period of healing, she felt the Lord calling her to walk with other victim-survivors and to bring light to this crisis in the Church. Esther is the Survivor Care Coordinator for Awake.LINKS:Esther’s Survivor Story:https://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/esther-harber/Contact Esther or Awake:https://www.awakecommunity.org/contactABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I had a wonderful conversation with Sr. Carino Hodder from the The Dominican Sisters of St. Joseph. I first met Sr. Carino when she participated in one of my online workshops about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church. Since then we’ve had several conversations about safeguarding, abuse of conscience, and the role of the catechist. I’ve really valued her perspective and insights. She has recently written a couple of articles on those topics, which seemed like a great excuse to have her on the podcast to talk about vulnerability, conscience, and the role of the catechist.Sr. Carino Hodder is a Dominican Sister of Saint Joseph based in the New Forest in England. She assists her community with their apostolate of training catechists, primarily as a tutor on their Certificate in Catechesis. Since becoming a sister, she has worked as a First Holy Communion catechist, a Confirmation catechist, and a parish sister in a parish in London, as well as being involved in ongoing formation for all age groups. She also writes regularly for The Lamp magazine and has contributed to other publications including Where Peter Is, The Pillar, and Plough.LINKS:The Dominican Sisters of St. Josephhttps://www.dominicansisters.net/Light of Truth: Live Catholic Formation for Everyonehttps://www.lightoftruth.uk/Freedom, Safety and Vulnerabilityhttps://wherepeteris.com/freedom-safety-and-vulnerability/Vulnerability and the Conscience in Catechesishttps://wherepeteris.com/vulnerability-and-the-conscience-in-catechesis/Substitute for Virtue: On the exercise of charisms without gracehttps://thelampmagazine.com/blog/substitute-virtueABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this first episode of 2025, I talked with my good friend and mentor, Monica Pope, about hope. We began by talking about the role of the catechist before launching into a catechesis about hope in light of the theme of the 2025 Jubilee Year, “Pilgrims of Hope.” All of that set up a more personal discussion about what hope actually looks like in our concrete lives. We proposed that hope is really only born out of a “third space” where the reality of all the bad is accepted—not bypassed—while holding onto the belief that God is good. Talking with Monica is always a consolation for me, I hope that’s your experience as well.Monica Pope has been doing evangelizing catechesis for 30 years in the Catholic Church. She has worked in Michigan parishes as Director of Catechesis, RCIA leader, and Director of Discipleship Ministries. Monica has created family catechesis programs in several parishes; she’s formed many dedicated and gifted Catholic disciples to be effective catechists. She’s written and led hundreds of retreats, presented for thousands of people, ranging from First Communicants and their parents, to senior residents at assisted living facilities, to employees of diocesan chancelleries. These days she’s a master catechist for a catholic media company. And cofounder of Practical Kerygma.LINKS:Practical Kerygma:https://www.practicalkerygma.com/ Spes Non Confundit - Bull of Indiction of the Ordinary Jubilee of the Year 2025:https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/bulls/documents/20240509_spes-non-confundit_bolla-giubileo2025.htmlDetails for my Winter 2025 spiritual abuse workshop are here:https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-7b6ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.Details for my Winter 2025 spiritual abuse workshop are here:https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-7b6SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I spoke with Natalie Pucillo. She recently wrote a couple of articles about her visit to Rome during the final meeting of the Synod on Synodality. Her reflections were so good, capturing both the harm and the hope she experienced. So asked if she would be on the podcast to talk about those articles. Specifically, I wanted to know her perspective on the synod and reform in the Church. And I wanted to hear about her experiences of hope. It was a wonderful conversation.Natalie Pucillo is currently a Master of Divinity student at Loyola University Chicago’s Institute of Pastoral Studies, where she integrates her interests in Catholic liturgy and sacramental theology, ecclesiology, and trauma-informed pastoral practices. She was a cradle Catholic and served for over 10 years as a professional church musician in various Washington, DC-area churches. She now works in higher education student support, and currently serves on the Leadership and Prayer teams for Awake. As a survivor of abuse by a lay minister in the Catholic Church, Natalie is passionate about spreading awareness about the spiritual effects of abuse by lay leaders, and working for accountability and transformation in our Church.LINKSWord Made Flesh: Reflections on the Synod on Synodalityhttps://allthatishidden.substack.com/p/word-made-fleshA Survivor Visits Romehttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/a-survivor-visits-romeABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.Details for my Winter 2025 spiritual abuse workshop are here: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-7b6SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I had a wonderful conversation with Colleen Dulle, co-host of the Inside the Vatican podcast, about the Synod on Synodality. I was pretty disappointed when the synod finished and felt like, instead of real change, we just got vibes. Colleen felt differently. So I wanted to ask her about her time in Rome during the final synod meeting, and the final synod document, and where she sees signs of real reform. As always, it was great talking with her.Colleen Dulle is an associate editor at America Media, where she co-hosts the weekly news podcast Inside the Vatican. She writes and edits Vatican news and analysis articles for America Magazine and contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Her forthcoming book, Struck Down, Not Destroyed, on the spiritual crises that result from reporting on the endemic problems of the Catholic Church, will be published by Penguin Random House in Summer 2025.LINKSColleen’s Websitehttps://www.colleendulle.comColleen’s Linktreehttps://linktr.ee/colleendulleSacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform bloghttps://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_houseColleen Dulle - Fr. Rupnik and Trusting the Popehttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-fr-rupnik-and-trustingColleen Dulle - Synodality and Spiritual Criseshttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-synodality-and-spiritualABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe