Third Space Podcast

It was a joy yesterday meeting with Sarah Carter and Sr Carino Hodder OP to talk about Pope Leo’s ongoing catechesis on the documents of Vatican II.Highlights included discussion about what it means for Scripture to be read in and for the Church; the Church as mystery and sacrament; the human and divine aspects of the Church; and the unity and diversity of the People of God. (It also seems worthy to mention that the resident Dominican breaks the stereotype and references Augustine ceaselessly while, if I recall correctly, not mentioning Aquinas once.)Sarah and I hope is to host live discussions every month following Leo’s catechesis. So keep an eye out for the next one.Go ahead and follow Sarah at Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly. She also put together a Leo Live Reading Companion.Become a paid subscriber to Third Space here: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribeSubscribe to Pope Leo Weekly here: https://popeleoweekly.substack.com/subscribe“As we approach the documents of Vatican Council II and rediscover their prophetic and contemporary relevance, we welcome the rich tradition of the life of the Church and, at the same time, we question ourselves about the present and renew our joy in running towards the world to bring it the Gospel of the kingdom of God, a kingdom of love, justice and peace.” Pope LeoThird Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I had a wonderful conversation with Anne Carpenter about Hans Urs von Balthasar, power, and vulnerability. Back in January, Anne had an essay in Commonweal titled, Raising the Bastions: Why the American Catholic right turned against Balthasar. In it, she was able to name the root sickness that I’ve seen and experienced in conservative Catholic spaces in the US, as well as in the institutional Church. Anne is insightful and profound, I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.Anne Carpenter is a professor in the Department of Theological Studies at Saint Louis University. She is the author of Theo-Poetics: Hans Urs von Balthasar and the Risk of Art and Being (University of Notre Dame Press) and Nothing Gained Is Eternal: A Theology of Tradition (Fortress Press).LINKS:Raising the Bastions: Why the American Catholic right turned against Balthasarhttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/carpenter-anne-balthasar-catholic-rightABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I had a wonderful discussion with Dr. Julia Sadusky about the importance, difficulties, and challenges of talking with your kids about sex. More specifically, we talked about the harm caused by sexual shame, how to avoid passing shame onto our kids, and how to talk about sexuality in a way that honors dignity and conscience.Dr. Julia Sadusky is an author, speaker, and licensed psychologist. She owns Lux Counseling and Consulting in Littleton, CO., where she offers individual, family, and couples therapy in addition to consultations for individuals and families around sexuality and gender. She also serves as a ministry educator, offering trainings and consultations to counseling centers and faith-based institutions on sexuality, gender identity, mental health, trauma-informed care, and the intersection of sexuality, gender, and theology. Other areas of focus include work with those experiencing complex trauma and eating disorders.Dr. Sadusky’s most recent books are Start Talking to Your Kids About Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics and Talking with Your Teen About Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics (Ave Maria Press). Dr. Sadusky has coauthored two other books, including Emerging Gender Identities: Understanding the Diverse Experiences of Today’s Youth (Brazos Press) and Gender Identity & Faith: Clinical Postures, Tools and Case Studies for Client-Centered Care (Intervarsity Press) with Mark Yarhouse, PsyD., and contributed to a four views book titled, Understanding Transgender Identities: 4 Views (Baker Academic).LINKSDr. Julia Sadusky’s Website: https://www.juliasadusky.com/Online Course: Talking with Your Teen about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics:https://talkingtoyourteencourse.com/**Coupon code: Themiddlespace10 for 10% off the course for parents of teensBook: Start Talking to Your Kids about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics:https://www.amazon.com/Start-Talking-Your-Kids-about/dp/1646802225Book: Talking with Your Teen about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics:https://www.amazon.com/Talking-Your-Teen-about-Sex/dp/1646802241/Dr. Julia Sadusky’s Substack:https://drsadusky.substack.com/ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Sarah Carter and I had a great conversation last night about Pope Leo’s ongoing catechesis on the documents of Vatican II. We talked about God’s desires for us: to become human, to speak in our language, and to make us his friends. We also discussed the development of doctrine and how to interpret scripture.Our hope is to host live discussions following this catechesis every month. So keep an eye out for the next one once we schedule it. The live discussions will be available for paid subscribers of either Third Space or Pope Leo Weekly. (though I think last night I did something wrong and it was available to everyone! But thank you all for showing up, there were 150 viewers!) Then the recording will be made available to everyone in the days following.Go ahead and follow Sarah at Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly. She also put together a Leo Live Reading Companion.Become a paid subscriber to Third Space here: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribeSubscribe to Pope Leo Weekly here: https://popeleoweekly.substack.com/subscribe“As we approach the documents of Vatican Council II and rediscover their prophetic and contemporary relevance, we welcome the rich tradition of the life of the Church and, at the same time, we question ourselves about the present and renew our joy in running towards the world to bring it the Gospel of the kingdom of God, a kingdom of love, justice and peace.” Pope LeoThird Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I spoke with Rhonda Miska, a lay minister working at a parish in the Twin Cities. A couple of weeks ago, I received an email from Rhonda introducing herself, thanking me for the podcast, and sharing with me some of her experiences working as a lay minister in the Twin Cities right now. She shared how on her to-do list was to promote the Lenten fish fry, and another was to help a mother vulnerable to deportation find someone to take care of her child if she’s deported. My heart was crushed as I read her email. And I immediately asked if she would be on the podcast to share what life is like on the ground ministering in Minneapolis. I’m so grateful that Rhonda said yes and that we had this conversation.I once again postponed my normal Monday morning release to today so that I could publish this conversation. We recorded this episode last night, Monday February 9thRhonda Miska is a preacher, writer, spiritual director, and lay ecclesial minister. Since 2020, she has served as the Director of Communications at the Church of St. Timothy in Blaine, a north suburb of Minneapolis, Minnesota. Rhonda holds a master's degree from the Boston College School of Theology and Ministry and is currently pursuing a Doctor of Ministry in Preaching degree from the Aquinas Institute of Theology.Catholic Community Foundation of Minnesota: Minnesota Catholic Relief Fundwww.ccf-mn.org/reliefRhonda’s reflection on the ICOM Vigil For Immigrant Justicehttps://www.morecommunity.org/blog-01-21-26As ICE operations rattle Minneapolis, Catholic women step forwardhttps://religionnews.com/2026/02/09/as-ice-operations-rattle-minneapolis-catholic-women-step-forward/Inside the Vatican podcast: Minneapolis Bishop on ICE, immigration and Pope Leohttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/minneapolis-bishop-on-ice-immigration-and-pope-leo/id1439165420?i=1000748598215ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I spoke with Jenn Morson about her recent article titled, “His Name is Liam.” which juxtaposed the March for Life in Washington DC with the way so many pro-life Catholics are defending the horrific violations of human dignity happening by ICE in Minnesota. We held space for each other, and hopefully for listeners, in the feelings of betrayal and isolation we’re feeling watching people in the pro-life movement—who taught us about human dignity—defend state violence. I postponed my normal Monday morning release so that I could publish this conversation today. We recorded this episode last night, Monday, January 26th.Jenn Morson is a freelance writer and investigative journalist. Jenn has written for the New York Times, the Washington Post, TIME, US Catholic, and more. Her reporting has focused specifically on the clergy abuse crisis, specifically on issues present at her alma mater, Franciscan University of Steubenville.LINKS“His name is Liam.”https://jennmorson.substack.com/p/his-name-is-liamDestiny Herndon-De La Rosa at New Wave Feministshttps://www.newwavefeminists.com/Donate to La Vina Community Church in Minnesotahttps://iglesiavina.org/home%2FinicioABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

A monologue where I end up reading large passages from Martin Luther King’s Letter from the Birmingham Jail.“But the judgment of God is upon the church as never before. If the church of today does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authentic ring, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. I meet young people every day whose disappointment with the church has risen to outright disgust.”-MLK, Letter from the Birmingham Jail“When injustices have occurred on both sides, it is important to take into clear account whether they were equally grave or in any way comparable. Violence perpetrated by the state, using its structures and power, is not on the same level as that perpetrated by particular groups.”-Pope Francis, Fratelli Tutti Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this throwback episode from a year ago, I talked with my good friend and mentor, Monica Pope, about hope. We began by talking about the role of the catechist before launching into a catechesis about hope in light of the theme of the 2025 Jubilee Year, “Pilgrims of Hope.” All of that set up a more personal discussion about what hope actually looks like in our concrete lives. We proposed that hope is really only born out of a “third space” where the reality of all the bad is accepted—not bypassed—while holding onto the belief that God is good.Monica Pope has been doing evangelizing catechesis for 30 years in the Catholic Church. She has worked in Michigan parishes as Director of Catechesis, RCIA leader, and Director of Discipleship Ministries. Monica has created family catechesis programs in several parishes; she’s formed many dedicated and gifted Catholic disciples to be effective catechists. She’s written and led hundreds of retreats, presented for thousands of people, ranging from First Communicants and their parents, to senior residents at assisted living facilities, to employees of diocesan chancelleries. These days she’s a master catechist for a catholic media company. And cofounder of Practical Kerygma.LINKS:Practical Kerygmahttps://www.practicalkerygma.com/Spes Non Confundit - Bull of Indiction of the Ordinary Jubilee of the Year 2025https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/bulls/documents/20240509_spes-non-confundit_bolla-giubileo2025.htmlABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I talked with Dr. Shaun Blanchard about Pope Leo declaring St. John Henry Newman to be a doctor of the Church. We discuss Shaun’s role in that official process. We also discuss Newman’s theology of development and how it’s important for the Church today.Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils.He is the author of The Synod of Pistoia and Vatican II (OUP: 2020) and, with Ulrich Lehner, co-edited The Catholic Enlightenment: A Global Anthology (CUA: 2021). With Stephen Bullivant, Shaun co-wrote Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023). With Richard T. Yoder, Shaun co-edited Jansenism: An International Anthology (CUA Press: 2024).LINKSShaun Blanchardhttps://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchardTraditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgyhttps://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican IIhttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-realABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this throwback episode from 2023, Paul and Dominic have a conversation with Shaun Blanchard about Vatican II and the development of doctrine. Shaun offers a brief history of the Church’s understanding about how doctrine develops over the past few centuries and how that culminated at Vatican II. Then we discuss how the Church’s teaching is not rigid or static but that the Church is always in a process of reform. As Dei Verbum says, “For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her.”Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils.He is the author of The Synod of Pistoia and Vatican II (OUP: 2020) and, with Ulrich Lehner, co-edited The Catholic Enlightenment: A Global Anthology (CUA: 2021). With Stephen Bullivant, Shaun co-wrote Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023). With Richard T. Yoder, Shaun co-edited Jansenism: An International Anthology (CUA Press: 2024).LINKSShaun Blanchardhttps://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchardTraditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgyhttps://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican IIhttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-realABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I’m excited to share a conversation I had with Amy Grey over on her Youtube channel, Into the Grey, where she interviewed me about the Church’s understanding of conscience. We discuss abuse of conscience as well as the interplay between personal conscience and the Church’s teaching authority.Amy Grey lives in the midwest with her husband Thomas and four children. She was raised in a rich Mennonite tradition, converting to Catholicism at age 13. She seeks a synthesis of faith and life, as well as heart and mind. Amy is the author of The Cognitive Resonance Workbook: A Practical Guide to Strengthening the Connection Between Heart and Mind.LINKSInto the Greyhttps://www.youtube.com/@Amy-GreyThe Cognitive Resonance Workbook: A Practical Guide to Strengthening the Connection Between Heart and Mindhttps://reasonablediscourse.org/Living Solidarityhttps://livingsolidarity.comABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Sarah Carter and I hosted a livestream conversation on Substack last week about Pope Leo’s Apostolic Exhortation, Dilexi Te. This was a pretty freewheeling conversation that ranged from giving an overview of the document, sharing our personal reactions to it, and taking listener questions. I had a lot of fun being a part of this and I hope you enjoy listening!Sarah Carter lives in St. Paul MN with her husband and three children. She is the author of Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly on Substack. Sarah has a masters degree in theology from the Saint Paul Seminary in St. Paul, MN with specialization in Catholic social teaching and Pope Francis’ encyclical Laudato si’LINKSRecovering Catholichttps://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/Pope Leo Weeklyhttps://popeleoweekly.substack.com/Dilexi Tehttps://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/apost_exhortations/documents/20251004-dilexi-te.htmlLiving Solidarityhttps://livingsolidarity.comABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I spoke with Sr. Danielle Victoria Lussier and Sr. Theresa Aletheia Noble from the Sisters of the Little Way of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness. We discussed their new audio documentary, Descent Into Light, about adult abuse in the Church. Sr. Theresa and Sr. Danielle have been real sources of consolation for me over the past couple of years, and it’s such an honor to have them on the podcast.The Sisters of the Little Way of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness, are a private association of the faithful intending to become a religious institute. As religious sisters and consecrated women, they live a mission of listening and solidarity with people on the fringes of the Church, especially those who have been wounded, scandalized, or abused by members of the Church.LINKSSisters of the Little Wayhttps://www.sistersofthelittleway.com/Descent Into Light podcasthttps://www.sistersofthelittleway.com/podcastSpiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-b5eABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Sarah Carter and I went into this conversation ready to talk about her excellent article, “The Evangelization Mistake I Made For Years: Missionary discipleship isn’t supposed to feel like this.” And then we spent the first half of our time discussing deconstruction and Henri de Lubac! Sarah is insightful and vulnerable, it was a joy to have this conversation with her. I hope you enjoy it.Sarah Carter lives in St. Paul MN with her husband and three children. She is the author of Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly on Substack. Sarah has a masters degree in theology from the Saint Paul Seminary in St. Paul, MN with specialization in Catholic social teaching and Pope Francis’ encyclical Laudato si’LINKSSarah’s article: The Evangelization Mistake I Made For Yearshttps://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/p/thats-not-what-missionary-discipleRecovering Catholichttps://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/Pope Leo Weeklyhttps://popeleoweekly.substack.com/Ann Yeong’s podcast: Spiritual Abuse in Evangelisation and Discipleshiphttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/spiritual-abuse-in-evangelisation-and-discipleship-with-paul-fahey/Spiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-b5eABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Today, I’m sharing a conversation I had a few weeks ago with Ann Yeong, for her podcast, Becoming Me, about spiritual abuse within the context of evangelization. We talk about how a distorted image of God can lead to a distorted evangelization where we “proclaim God in a way contrary to God himself.” We also discuss the critical role of personal integrity and the healthy use of authority for those in positions of spiritual leadership. It was so good to have this conversation with Ann. I hope you enjoy listening.Ann Yeong is the Founder of Integrō Formation and the host of the Becoming Me podcast. Ann has over 15 years of experience in human and spiritual formation in the Catholic Church in Singapore. She served as Director, Youth & Young Adults Office in the Church of St Mary of the Angels and started the first parish-based Office for New Evangelisation in Singapore in 2012. In 2014, Ann left full-time parish employment to focus on speaking about the interior life and meeting individuals & small groups for spiritual conversation and formation. Ann is particularly passionate about: the lived experience of complex trauma and spiritual/religious trauma’s impact on our relationship with God; the existential crisis of spiritual midlife ‘deconstruction’ that often happens as an integral part of healing and truth-seeking; and developing a mature, trauma-informed Christ-centered contemplative spiritualityLINKSIntegrō Formationhttps://www.integroformation.com/Spiritual Abuse in Evangelisation and Discipleshiphttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/spiritual-abuse-in-evangelisation-and-discipleship-with-paul-fahey/Reclaiming Our Dignity: Healing from Spiritual Abusehttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/reclaiming-our-dignity-healing-from-spiritual-abuse-with-paul-fahey/ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I talked with Colleen Dulle about her new book, “Struck Down, Not Destroyed: Keeping the Faith as a Vatican Reporter.” The book is part journalism and part spiritual memoir. Colleen’s personal stories were deeply genuine in a way that invited me to reflect on my own experiences. In this conversation we talk about what it was like for her to write such a vulnerable memoir. Then we dive into topics like Jean Vanier, the canonization of Carlo Acutis, and how children can shape a person’s experience of God. It’s always great to interview Colleen, I hope you enjoy our conversation.Colleen Dulle is the Vatican Correspondent at America and co-hosts the "Inside the Vatican" podcast. She contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Colleen is also the author of Struck Down, Not Destroyed: Keeping the Faith as a Vatican Reporter (Image, 2025).LINKSLiving Solidaritywww.livingsolidarity.comColleen’s Bookhttps://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/742516/struck-down-not-destroyed-by-colleen-dulle/Colleen’s Websitehttps://www.colleendulle.comSacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform bloghttps://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_houseShaun Blanchard & Colleen Dulle - Pope Leo XIVhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/bonus-episode-shaun-blanchard-andColleen Dulle - Synodality and Spiritual Criseshttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-synodality-and-spiritualColleen Dulle - Fr. Rupnik and Trusting the Popehttps://www.popefrancisgeneration.com/p/colleen-dulle-fr-rupnik-and-trustingABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church's Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This is the first episode of Season Two! And I’m excited to be talking with Sara Larson!I interviewed Sara about a year and a half ago for the Pope Francis Generation podcast to hear about the mission of Awake. A lot has happened since then! I wanted to interview her again to talk about some exciting things Awake is doing. More specifically, I wanted her to be on the first episode of Season Two to have a conversation about what it means to engage in the Church with a preferential option for survivors because that’s at the heart of my mission with Third Space.Sara Larson is the executive director of Awake, an independent Catholic nonprofit organization working for awakening, transformation, and healing from the wounds of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. She also lifts up the voices and stories of abuse survivors in her personal blog, In Spirit and Truth.LINKSAwake’s website:https://www.awakecommunity.orgSara’s In Spirit and Truth blog:https://inspiritandtruth.substack.comSara’s talk for the International Safeguarding Conference:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkhjJsmrt94Pope Leo XIV’s Letter to Awake:https://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/pope-leo-responds-to-letters-from-survivorsABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I had recorded all of Season One before the conclave, but I didn’t want to wait until the fall to talk about Pope Leo. So this is a bonus round-table discussion with two previous guests: Shaun Blanchard and Colleen Dulle. We discuss a variety of topics including how Leo XIV may address Catholic Social Teaching, the abuse crisis, synodality, and the role of women in the Church. I enjoyed this conversation a lot, I hope you do too.Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils. Shaun is the author of several books, including Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023) which he cowrote with Stephen BullivantColleen Dulle is an associate editor at America Media, where she co-hosts the weekly news podcast Inside the Vatican. She writes and edits Vatican news and analysis articles for America Magazine and contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Her forthcoming book, Struck Down, Not Destroyed, on the spiritual crises that result from reporting on the endemic problems of the Catholic Church, will be published by Penguin Random House in Summer 2025.LINKS:Colleen Dulle - Real Reform or Just Vibes?https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/8-colleen-dulle-real-reform-or-justColleen’s Websitehttps://www.colleendulle.comColleen’s Linktreehttps://linktr.ee/colleendulleSacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform bloghttps://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_houseShaun Blanchard - Development and Fundamentalismhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/3-shaun-blanchard-development-andShaun Blanchardhttps://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchardTraditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgyhttps://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican IIhttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-realABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

 This is part two of a two part conversation with Jordan Daniel Wood. In this first part, we discussed a recent lecture that Jordan presented about the development of the Church's teachings on Hell, as well as what he proposed for possible future developments. The second part of our conversation focuses on how a “massa damnata” position on Hell distorts the character of God and his goodness while also leading to a culture of fear and spiritual coercion.If you haven't listened to part one, I would encourage you to go back and listen to that now before you listen to part two.Also, this is the last episode of this season. I'll be taking the summer off. I will have new episodes being released in the fall. Thanks so much for listening.Jordan Daniel Wood is Assistant Professor of Theology at Belmont University, in Nashville, TN. He's the author of The Whole Mystery of Christ: Creation as Incarnation in Maximus Confessor (Notre Dame Press, 2022), and is nearing completion of the first complete English translation of Maximus's letters. He lives outside of Nashville with his lovely wife and four daughters.LINKS:Jordan’s “The Future of Hell” serieshttps://jordandanielwood.substack.com/p/the-future-of-hellPope Francis Generation podcast episode: Jordan Daniel Wood - Hell and Universalismhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/jordan-daniel-wood-hell-and-universalismABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

 This is part one of a two-part conversation with Jordan Daniel Wood. In this first part, we discuss a recent lecture that Jordan presented about the development of the Church's teachings on Hell, as well as what he proposes for possible future developments. The second part of our conversation focuses on how a “massa damnata” position on Hell distorts the character of God and his goodness while also leading to a culture of fear and spiritual coercion.Jordan Daniel Wood is Assistant Professor of Theology at Belmont University, in Nashville, TN. He's the author of The Whole Mystery of Christ: Creation as Incarnation in Maximus Confessor (Notre Dame Press, 2022), and is nearing completion of the first complete English translation of Maximus's letters. He lives outside of Nashville with his lovely wife and four daughters.LINKS:Jordan’s “The Future of Hell” serieshttps://jordandanielwood.substack.com/p/the-future-of-hellPope Francis Generation podcast episode: Jordan Daniel Wood - Hell and Universalismhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/jordan-daniel-wood-hell-and-universalismABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe