We're Not Marketers

Is your message testing just throwing random ingredients into a pot and hoping it tastes good? In this no-holds-barred episode, the boys tackle the chaos of message testing and why most PMMs are doing it wrong. From useless A/B tests with tiny sample sizes to executives demanding "just one more tweak," we dive into what actually works. Tune in for laughs, practical frameworks, and why your mom's cooking method isn't a valid messaging strategy. We're covering:Only 30% of product marketers have ever actually tested a message (and most of them did it wrong)Why A/B testing is the "let's not commit" cop-out of marketing teamsThe one-variable rule: why testing multiple things at once is destroying your resultsThe critical difference between message testing and A/B testing that most marketers missHow to build a message testing framework that gets leadership buy-in immediatelyIf you've ever sat through a meeting where someone suggested "Let's A/B test it" for a campaign going to 150 people, this episode will either validate your frustration or completely change how you work. Either way, your next messaging project just got a whole lot more effective.Timestamps01:39 Question: How Many PMMs Actually Test Messages?02:31 Why A/B Testing Is Often the Wrong Approach04:00 Statistical Significance and Sample Size Problems05:58 Testing Text vs. Testing Visuals06:05 Messaging as Strategy vs. Tactical Implementation  09:01 Differentiating Message Testing from A/B Testing12:15 The Commitment Problem in Marketing Decision-Making16:16 How Trade Shows Can Validate Positioning and Messaging19:45 Message Testing to Define Product Uniqueness22:00 Eric's Process Misstep: Jumping to Experimentation Too Soon27:45 The Scientific Method in Message Testing29:01 The Gumbo Analogy: Why Most Marketing Isn't Replicable34:15 Isolating Variables in Message Testing35:36 Building a Strong Hypothesis Framework38:25 Gab's Message Testing Resources (Message Market Fit)41:30 The ROI of Message Testing and Business Consequences44:35 Final Thoughts and Key TakeawaysShow notes:Victoria Rudi's Messaging FrameworksMessage Market Fit - Gab's resource for message testing frameworks and templates.Freckle.io - The Clay alternative talked in the example Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We have a rule here: Never get the same guest twice. Well, we’ve just broken it now because we’re getting Michele Nieberding for the 2nd time!The Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter, the Martech queen and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge one of the biggest assumptions about product marketers. We dive into the blurred lines between PMM, marketing, and product teams, why some org structures set PMMs up for failure, and how AI is reshaping the role. Plus, Michele drops tactical insights on working with sales, disqualifying bad leads, and scaling impact as a solo PMM. We’ve talked about: ✅ The launch hamster wheel—why PMMs get stuck in product launches & how to escape it✅ The red flags: If your PMM team reports to the CRO, run! 🏃‍♀️✅ How to work with sales without becoming a glorified content marketer✅ The anti-ICP approach: Why knowing who isn’t a fit is just as important✅ Feature matrix vs. value selling: When does sales actually need that comparison chart?✅ AI for PMMs—the right (and wrong) ways to use AI for messaging, content, and research✅ The rise of VP of Product Marketing—finally, a real PMM career path?✅ The troubling trend: Why “Director of Growth & PMM” is a dangerous hybrid role✅ Buffets, bad dating analogies, and how to disqualify bad fits faster than a bad Tinder date🔊 Stay tuned for Michele’s must-know AI hacks, plus the biggest PMM trends shaping 2024!Timespan:00:59 Introducing the Guest02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:15 Sales and Marketing Insights09:45 AI in Product Marketing20:45 Working with Sales Teams25:13 Navigating Competitor Analysis26:19 Disqualifying Bad Fits28:16 Sales Reps and Disqualification29:01 The Buffet Analogy33:27 The Anti-ICP Concept36:21 Sales and Marketing Alignment42:40 Future Trends in Product Marketing48:04 Closing Remarks and FarewellShownotes:Follow Michelle on LinkedInGong.io (for sales call analysis) Perplexity AI (for deep research)Notebook LM (Google AI-powered research tool)Gamma AI (Instant slide deck generator) BuyWords (on-demand copywriting agency) Keyplay’s ICP Transition Gap AgentGPT (AI agents for research & automation) Prompt Genie (Optimized AI prompting tool) Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketers with a sales background often feel like they have a superpower. The opposite is even truer.Kyle Coleman, CMO at Copy.ai, says yes—and he’s got the career journey to back it up. From SDR to marketing exec, Kyle breaks down why sales and marketing are inseparable, how storytelling (not the best product) wins markets, and why staying close to revenue is the key to career growth. Plus, he shares how he personally closed $350K in outbound sales while leading marketing.✅ Why storytelling—not features—wins markets (just ask Salesforce).✅ The biggest mistake most product marketers make when trying to prove their impact.✅ Sales and marketing: two sides of the same coin or completely different beasts?✅ Why the best PMMs own the revenue conversation.✅ The "ivory tower" trap that kills product marketing impact.✅ Kyle’s secret to getting buy-in from execs for category creation (hint: 75+ interviews).✅ A real-life sales deck fail—and how Kyle fixed it by actually selling.✅ The #1 piece of career advice for product marketers who want to be CMOs.If you're a product marketer aiming for the CMO seat, this episode is your playbook. 🔥Timespan:00:00 Introduction to the Podcast00:16 Meet the Hosts00:56 Introducing the Guest: Kyle Coleman01:53 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:18 Sales and Marketing: A Unified Perspective05:40 Kyle's Journey from SDR to CMO07:42 The Importance of Staying Close to Revenue12:10 Internal Buy-In and Category Definition15:11 Advice for Aspiring CMOs19:12 Using AI in Marketing Strategy21:28 AI in Sales Enablement22:40 Impact Over Quantity23:57 Real-World Example: Transitioning to Enterprise25:49 Hiring the Right Product Marketer30:29 Marketing as a Leadership Function34:51 Advice for Product Marketing Candidates39:06 Kyle's Side Projects and Copy AI41:45 Final Thoughts and Career Growth TipsShow Notes:Kyle's LinkedIn ProfileCopy.aiChristopher Lochhead’s "Position Yourself or Be Positioned"Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We’re kicking off season 4 with Chanel Chambers, VP of Marketing at Lakeside Software. As a product marketing leader and past music teacher, she’s joining us to break down the role of product marketing, why it's central to a business’s success, and how PMMs can increase their influence. From jazz improvisation to AI-driven business strategies, Chanel shares fresh insights on how product marketers can start treating their role with a business holistic approach and how to create credibility internally AND externally. We’re talked about:🔹 Why product marketers sit at the center of the entire marketing mix🔹 How PMMs can transition from order takers to strategic influencers🔹 The “Land, Expand, Retain” framework every PMM needs to master🔹 What jazz musicians and product marketers have in common🔹 How to build credibility and navigate internal conflicts with confidence🔹 Why business fluency is the key to PMM influence (hint: know your numbers!)🔹 The difference between activities vs. outcomes—and why PMMs should focus on the latter🔹 Why AI isn’t changing what businesses need, just how they get there🔹 The biggest mistake PMMs make when presenting ICP and personasListen now to get a fresh perspective on how to elevate your role and make a real impact as a PMM! 🎧Timespan:00:00 Introduction and Host Introductions00:55 Special Guest Introduction: Chanel Chambers02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?03:33 The Role of Product Marketing in Business09:52 Frameworks and Problem-Solving in Product Marketing16:03 Outcome-Based Metrics vs. Activity-Based Metrics18:37 Navigating Organizational Goals and Stakeholders23:04 Understanding the Role of Personas24:24 The Importance of Insights Over Reports25:50 Practicing Influence as a PMM26:33 Curiosity and Ambiguity in PMM34:38 Navigating Internal Conflicts39:47 Final Thoughts and FarewellShow Notes:Chanel LinkedInHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this special recap, we dive into what it really means to be a product marketer in the ever-evolving B2B SaaS space—from defining the role to gaining the trust of executives and product teams. Hear first-hand advice on establishing boundaries, shaping product roadmaps, and showcasing your unique value. Tune in to discover how you can go from feeling misunderstood to being the unignorable voice in your organization.Why product marketing often feels misunderstood—and how to change that.The “secret sauce” to defining your role so everyone, from sales to CEOs, sees your impact.Strategies for sitting in a “neutral” spot on the org chart (and why it’s a dream setup).Insider tips for positioning your product before it’s built—so buyers are ready to say “yes.”How to set healthy boundaries with tasks that aren’t in your zone of genius.This episode is featuring episodes clips from Tamara Grominsky, Dave Gerhardt, and April Dunford.Give it a listen prior to season 4 launching in 2 weeks! Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing and content marketing—are they allies, or just frenemies in disguise? In this episode, Devin Reed (ex-Gong, ex-Clari, and host of Read Between the Lines) joins the crew to dish out his hot takes on the tension between PMMs and content marketers, why most messaging decks collect dust, and the real secret to making content that resonates. If you’ve ever questioned whether product marketing is actually marketing (or just internal storytelling), this one’s for you.What You’ll Learn in This Episode:→ The biggest mistake product marketers make when handing messaging to content teams→ Why most positioning and messaging decks never make it into real-world content→ The secret to testing messaging before betting big on a full campaign→ How to bridge the gap between internal messaging and market-facing storytelling→ The power of creative freedom—why it’s the ultimate flex in B2B marketing→ The “two-sentence test” for making sure your messaging actually lands→ When it’s too candid—how to balance bold positioning with market perception→ How to write messaging that actually reflects what customers sayListen now to hear Devin unfiltered take on product marketing, messaging mistakes, and how to win the content game.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome02:00 Introducing the Special Guest: Devin Reed04:13 Devin Reed's Insights on Product Marketing06:00 The Relationship Between Content and Product Marketing14:51 Testing and Differentiating Marketing Strategies23:57 Creative Freedom in B2B Marketing26:23 Writing for Yourself: A Sales Rep's Perspective26:57 Creating Relatable and Memorable Content28:12 The Power of Sales Team Collaboration28:55 The Heat Check: Testing Content Ideas29:35 Maniacal Focus on Quality Content29:59 The Importance of Clear and Concise Messaging31:40 Understanding Your Audience's Language34:37 Navigating Internal Approval Processes36:32 Leveraging Customer Insights for Copywriting43:14 The Creative Process: From Inspiration to Execution48:34 Final Thoughts and Upcoming ProjectsShow Notes:The Reeder WebsiteReed between the lines podcastDevin’s LinkedIn Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Ever wondered how a band of misfits turned shared frustrations into a thriving podcast? In this episode, we’re sharing our origin story, revealing how they met, bonded over common pain points in the product marketing world, and turned candid conversations into a platform that challenges industry norms. Packed with spicy takes, behind-the-scenes laughs, and actionable advice, this episode is a testament to the power of finding your people and staying true to your vision. How PMM frustrations sparked the idea for the We're Not Marketers podcast.How we’ve turned banter and venting sessions into a thriving community.The secret to developing a contrarian yet authentic point of view.Why we stand out in a crowded product marketing landscape.Message testing and building a relatable brand voice.Tune in to discover why authenticity, fun, and a unique point of view are the ultimate game-changers.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Episode Context01:32 Meet the Hosts01:59 How We Met and Formed the Podcast02:34 The Organic Evolution of the Show04:13 Challenges and Dynamics of Product Marketing06:52 Developing a Unique Point of View09:46 Contrarian Perspectives and Testing Ideas12:57 The Role and Identity of Product Marketers21:11 Positioning and Future of Product Marketing24:23 Tattoos in the Workplace: A Changing Perspective25:09 Belief in Our Mission: Every Day Commitment26:08 Navigating Skepticism and Valuing Disagreement26:51 Embracing Learning and Marketing Communities30:04 The Freedom of Creative Expression35:03 The Importance of Fun in Work40:40 Stoic Wisdom and Final ThoughtsShow Notes:Navattic - State of the Interactive Demo 2025Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Are you ready to take the leap into fractional work?In this episode of We're Not Marketers, Gab, Zach, and Eric dive into the realities, challenges, and triumphs of betting on yourself as a fractional Product Marketing Manager (PMM). They explore:The mindset shifts required to succeed in a fractional career.Lessons learned from building your niche and refining your offer.How confidence, community, and obsession fuel success.Why intentional trade-offs and clear goals are the foundation for thriving as a solopreneur.From navigating imposter syndrome to celebrating small wins, this conversation is packed with practical tips and inspiring insights to help you find your footing and take control of your career.Whether you're a PMM considering the fractional path or a solopreneur looking to sharpen your approach, this episode offers the advice and encouragement you need to bet on yourself and thrive.🎧 Tune in now and discover why "no one is coming to save you"—and how that's the best news yet.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Welcome00:27 Betting on Yourself: The Fractional Route01:15 Personal Experiences and Challenges02:42 Unlearning In-House Habits04:29 The Importance of Confidence and Mindset09:36 Sales and Client Management17:35 Intentional Trade-Offs and Financial Stability30:40 Evolving Your Process and Building Confidence31:34 Navigating Isolation and Finding Support33:24 Balancing Work and Personal Life34:43 Reframing Challenges and Embracing Growth39:05 The Power of Community and Shared Experiences43:48 Crafting Your Unique Offer and Building Foundations47:42 Obsession and Dedication: The Path to Success51:50 Final Thoughts and ReflectionsHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The more knowledge you have on product marketing, the better you can be an expert and have more impact on your job. Today, we’re having Peter Kortvel, a senior product marketer at Scandit and the creator of the product marketing newsletter (with 1700+ subscribers).Peter has worked as a video consultant, in startups, cofounded an IoT startup and today shows us what great product marketing should look like.He has 13+ years of experience as a marketer and believes in getting things done (we appreciate it too!). In this episode, we’re covering:The importance of understanding your target audienceWhy research can help you communicate your product valueThe difference between storytelling and the formatChallenges of PMMs and if they are marketersCommon startup mistakes in messagingThe best time to drink beerSo grab a beer with us and let’s chat product marketing 🫡Timespan:00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers00:55 Meet Our Guest: Peter Kortvel01:55 Diving into Product Marketing09:27 The Role of Research in Marketing14:19 Challenges in Startup Marketing23:49 The Role of Storytelling in Video Content24:38 Challenges of Storytelling in B2B Marketing26:08 Understanding the Audience's Problem28:18 The Importance of Clear Communication31:38 Creating Aha Moments in Marketing36:25 The Concept of Visual Cold Calling46:24 Conclusion and Final ThoughtsShow Notes:Peter’s LinkedInProduct Marketing NewsletterHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Making your mark as a founding PMM is very difficult, especially when the role itself has an identity crisis.That’s why we’ve asked three product marketers from our audience to join us to talk about their experience, and how to prove themselves valuable (especially when everything wants you to fail)This week, we’re inviting Shoshana Kordova, Aphrodite Brinsmead, and Elliott Rayner to discuss the multifaceted role of product marketingIn this special episode, we’re covering:The significance of clear messagingAI's potential for PMMsThe inherent identity crisis within our fieldStrategies for establishing effective product marketingThe necessity of a 30-60-90 day plan. This episode was made special because we’ve asked our listeners to join us and they accepted, so please, give us feedback and send us messages! We read everything 👀 (except if it’s outbound requests, then Eric will ban you immediately)Timestamps:01:39 Introducing the Guests05:01 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?07:34 AI in Product Marketing18:56 The Identity Crisis of Product Marketing23:14 Rebranding Product Marketing: A Controversial Move23:45 The Role of Founders in Early Product Marketing24:36 The Importance of Product Marketing in Today's Market26:18 Explaining Product Marketing Through Its Absence27:06 Challenges of Being a Founding Product Marketing Manager32:50 The 30-60-90 Day Plan Debate38:00 Selling the Value of Product Marketing46:02 Final Thoughts and Where to Find MoreShow Notes:Elliott LinkedInAphrodite LinkedInShoshana LinkedIn Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Episode Description:In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we’re diving deep with Rob Kaminski, one-half of the dynamic duo behind Fletch PMM. Rob’s journey is a masterclass in transitioning from a generalist’s toolkit to a hyper-focused niche, unlocking unparalleled expertise along the way.Together, we explore the unconventional path that led Rob and his co-founder Anthony Pierri to redefine positioning and messaging for early-stage SaaS companies, focusing on the all-important homepage.What you’ll learn:How to start building a market map and niche down effectively.Why being “too broad” can sabotage your positioning (and how to avoid it).The surprising power of debating with a partner to spark innovation.Why specificity is the ultimate superpower in product marketing.A behind-the-scenes look at Fletch’s process of refining their service and attracting their first 25 clients.And, hear Rob’s take on ‘how to position a platform’, specifically the same Q we asked April Dunford last month. Who’s answer will you like more: Rob’s or April’s? Whether you’re a product marketer looking to sharpen your craft, an aspiring fractional PMM, or just curious about what it takes to truly differentiate yourself in a crowded market, this episode is packed with insights, inspiration, and actionable advice.Tune in to hear Rob’s honest, no-holds-barred take on finding your focus and making it count.Show Notes 01:34 Introducing the Special Guest: Rob Kaminski02:32 Rob Kaminski's Career Journey04:36 The Role of Product Marketers06:25 Challenges in Product Marketing07:50 Importance of Execution in Strategy10:41 Navigating Internal Influence13:46 The Value of External Perspectives17:58 Building a Fractional Service19:57 Experimentation and Iteration24:14 Starting and Scaling a Fractional Business34:49 Cold Outreach and Building Expertise35:47 The Power of Niching Down37:51 Partnership Dynamics and Decision Making41:57 Creating Forcing Functions and Urgency43:51 The Importance of Specialization50:56 Positioning and Messaging Strategies59:42 Closing Thoughts and FarewellsHow to connect with RobRob Kaminski LinkedIn Profile FletchPMM websiteHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Ever felt like a misfit in product marketing? You’re not alone.In this episode of We’re Not Marketers, hosts Gab, Zach, and Eric dive deep into a hot topic for PMMs: discovering and honing your unique superpower to stand out in your role. Whether you're a product marketing veteran or new to the field, this conversation is packed with timeless advice, relatable stories, and strategies to help you identify your strengths and position yourself effectively.What’s Inside This Episode?Self-discovery exercises for PMMs: From creating a “win list” to identifying transferable skills.Positioning yourself for success: Why knowing your competitive strength is key for landing the right roles.Experimentation is key: How trying different PMM functions (like pricing or messaging) can reveal your passions.Practical tools: Use energy-mapping techniques to uncover the tasks that fuel your motivation and career growth.Standing out in the crowd: Why specializing in a niche or showcasing your work is a game-changer.Confidence and mindset: The power of affirmations and self-belief in defining and owning your PMM identity.Who’s This Episode For?Startup PMMs and fractional product marketers in B2B SaaS who’re looking to differentiate themselves and feel unignorable in their roles.Key Takeaway:Your superpower isn’t just a skill—it’s how you position yourself and align your passions with business needs. Stop blending in and start standing out by owning your unique value.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Welcome01:01 Casual Banter and Golf Talk01:49 Understanding Your PMM Role02:26 Personal Experiences in Product Marketing03:33 Finding Your Competitive Strength04:48 Exploring Different Aspects of PMM06:57 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome07:51 Leveraging Your Superpower09:34 Practical Advice for PMMs14:29 The Importance of Confidence23:24 Final Thoughts and ConclusionSponsorZach Messler with Clarityrules.comHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this next episode of We're Not Marketers, hosts Zach, Gab, and Eric are joined by Rahim Kaba, Director and Research Analyst at Gartner, to dive into the evolving role of PMM in B2B SaaS. With over 20 years of experience in the field, Rahim shares data with perspective on the function and challenges that come with it today. Key highlights include:- The Core Identity of Product Marketers: Rahim argues that product marketers are unequivocally marketers, backed by data showing 81% of PMMs report directly to marketing teams.- Shifting Expectations and Responsibilities: Learn about the changing scope of product marketing, from content creation roles to strategic leaders in positioning and storytelling.- Strategic Insights on Launch Cadences: Rahim discusses the importance of aligning release cycles with customer adoption capabilities and how to avoid launch fatigue.- Must-Have PMM Skills: Emphasis on the significance of data literacy, with tips on upskilling and resources like the Data Literacy Project.- Build Internal Influence: Best practices to clarify PMM roles through charters and RACI models to strengthen cross-functional alignment.The conversation also touches on the growth of fractional product marketers, the implications of market trends, and advice on how PMMs can elevate their strategic influence internally.Whether you're a seasoned product marketer or just starting out, this episode is packed with practical tips, valuable research insights (umm Gartner, bro), and a clear roadmap to reinforce PMM’s impact in any company. Tune in for a ‘deep-sea of research’ dive of how PMMs can thrive in today's competitive landscape.Time Stamps 02:11 Rahim's Background and Role at Gartner03:15 Are Product Marketers Really Marketers?07:06 Challenges and Misunderstandings in Product Marketing09:51 The Evolution of Product Marketing14:56 Data Literacy in Product Marketing18:12 Impact of Layoffs on Product Marketing21:04 Rise of Fractional Product Marketers23:46 Specialization in Product Marketing25:28 The Appeal of Fractional Product Marketing27:06 Challenges and Strategies for PMMs28:49 Effective Product Launch Strategies33:22 Balancing Product and Marketing Priorities34:44 The Role of PMMs in Organizations38:06 Building a Product Marketing Charter44:16 Using Gartner InsightsWhere more to follow and connect with Rahim?Rahim Kaba LinkedIn Gartner Time to Value PodcastGartner for High Tech LinkedIn PageFree Gartner Webinar Recording: How Growth Organizations Source Critical PMM SkillsHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The role of the PMM is evolving and requires us to always adapt and be knowledgeable on new tech and initiatives. It can make a difference between a product marketer who is valuable and stack influence vs. someone who’s on the layoff list.Someone who keeps pushing the limit of practical product marketing and leveraging projects short-cuts to ship more is Jess Petrella, Senior Product Marketing Manager (PMM) at ZayZoon, and she has an amazing take on becoming an efficient PMM.We discussed how AI can enhance the PMMs' capacity to analyze data and analyze opportunities, the importance of proximity with product teams, and the skills necessary for PMMs to co-create product roadmaps. The episode provides practical advice for aspiring PMMs and reflects on how to navigate better the challenges of the profession, from someone who just built the function from scratch. We talk about:Use AI for quicker data synthesis and opportunity analysisBuild advocacy skills to align with other teamsStrengthen connections with product teamsCollaborate on roadmaps to grow your roleGain skills to impact product decisionsSimplify tasks with AI to increase outputDiscover how you can build more influence as a PMM with the help of AI! Timespan:01:04 Discussing Product Marketing and Launches02:16 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?03:15 The Evolution of Product Marketing05:21 Building Influence as a Product Marketer17:43 Leveraging AI in Product Marketing28:53 Conclusion and FarewellShow Notes:Jess LinkedInhttps://pmmops.com/Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The worst thing about being a PMM is not having to launch a new product within 2 weeks, or drowning in sales decks. It’s all sharing the same trauma that people don’t understand product marketing. We’ve seen a lot of movement on LinkedIn about PMMs sharing horror stories. Michele Nieberding even did a talk about it at PMA Boston.And we were lucky enough to have her sharing them on the pod, just in time for Halloween 💀 our FAVORITE HOLIDAY 🎃Michele, the director of product marketing at MetaRouter, spent almost a decade in product marketing and loves Halloween, we’re talking about:Combining new brands, products and segmentsFreemium to ScreemiumFailed launches and disastrous rebrandsProduct enforcement gone wrongA bunch of jokes and fun thingsStart feeling better about your role and discover horror stories for PMMs that would scare even ghouls and ghosts!Timespan:00:00 Introduction and Sponsorship01:02 Meet the Hosts01:28 Special Guest Introduction03:20 PMM Horror Stories: Introduction06:42 Horror Story 1: The Freemium Nightmare14:01 Horror Story 2: Enforcing Usage Limits19:30 The Sleep Sack Nightmare21:10 Customer Perspective on Luxury Baby Products22:03 Manufacturing and Packaging Woes24:26 A College Business Competition Fiasco25:54 The Real Estate App Pricing Disaster30:44 The Rebranding and Product Launch Debacle37:29 Closing Thoughts and FarewellShow Notes:Michele’s LinkedInHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

For PMMs, it can be difficult to have a good relationship with sales, especially in new roles. Win-loss analysis and interviews can be a good win when you see that close-lost column piling up on the CRM pipeline.But how can you take another responsibility on your to-do when you’re already swamped?Matthew Reeves, CEO and co-founder of GoldPan, runs a win-loss analysis agency. In this episode, he’s showing us:How to build rapport with sales teamsThe complexities of positioning and messagingWhy you need both wins and losses for good research. Why information overload kill sales. The nuanced value of churn analysis. Hear also the very unique take of Matthew on if product marketers are marketers, we can’t say we heard this one yet!Timespan:00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers00:19 Introducing Matthew Reeves, CEO of GoldPan01:37 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:49 The Evolution and Challenges of Marketing12:21 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis21:31 Building Rapport Between Product Marketers and Sales34:25 Sales Missteps and Buyer Uncertainty34:59 Understanding Product Assessment35:34 The Role of Risk and Values in Buying Decisions37:01 Challenges in Product Marketing37:48 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis38:39 Switching Costs and Product Marketing40:34 Effective Sales Messaging43:14 The Buyer-Seller Dynamic50:06 The Value of Churn Analysis54:29 Bad Sales Experiences01:01:33 Closing Thoughts and Future PlansShow Notes:Matthew’s LinkedInGoldpan websiteHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Get ready for some real talk about positioning! In this episode, we sit down with the queen of positioning herself, April Dunford. If your startup’s positioning feels a little “mushy” or your product is getting compared to everyone under the sun, this episode is for you. April shares her no-nonsense approach to tightening up your message and teaching your CEO why positioning isn’t just some abstract marketing concept—it’s the foundation of your success. Whether you’re battling internal buy-in or figuring out how to stand out in a crowded market, April’s got the answers (plus a few hilarious takes on toilets and camping). Here’s what you’re missing, by not listening:Is your product positioning “mushy”? Learn why vague messaging is killing your pitch—and how to fix it.The secret weapon for startups: April’s advice on involving sales and product teams in positioning.Why “actionable insights” aren’t really actionable: How to cut the jargon and speak your customer's language.CEO thinks their product positioning is fine? April’s roadmap to making them see the problem—without calling their baby ugly.Positioning vs. features: Why selling value over features is your ultimate key to success.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message01:05 Meet the Hosts and Guest Introduction01:39 April Dunford on Product Marketing03:25 The Role of Positioning in Startups09:17 Building Influence as a Product Marketer23:27 Fun and Games with April Dunford34:26 Discovering Catan: A Board Game Revelation35:00 Building Dreams: Choosing the Perfect Cottage Location36:10 Torture Chamber Round: Birds or Stars?38:42 The Cardinal Sins of Product Positioning43:33 Selling Platforms: Value Over Features01:00:17 The Art of Persuasive Writing in Marketing01:04:52 Career Advice for Product Marketers01:11:01 Engage with April Dunford: Books, Podcasts, and MoreResourcesApril Dunford LinkedInApril Dunford websiteApril Dunford’s Positioning Podcast Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Dealing with the chaos of being a PMM while trying to balance the rest of your life? You’re not alone.In this candid episode of We're Not Marketers, Zach, Eric, and Gab dive into the realities of managing life as a Product Marketing Manager, whether you're in-house or fractional. From overwhelming work expectations to the struggle of balancing personal life, the team discusses how to protect your mental health while handling an always-on work culture. They share personal stories, tips like setting boundaries, removing work apps from phones, and practical advice on how to deal with burnout. If you're feeling the strain of managing your career, relationships, and self-care, this episode is a must-listen.Key takeaways include:Strategies to create separation between work and personal time (e.g., daily rituals, setting boundaries, Slack detox).Real-talk about burnout and why mental health shouldn’t be just a “corporate benefit.”Practical tips on saying “no” to unrealistic requests and protecting your productivity.How fractional PMMs handle the pressure of multiple clients while in-house PMMs navigate endless internal demands.Tune in to hear the team's perspectives on how to reclaim balance and stay sane as a PMM.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message01:02 The Challenges of Being a Product Marketer02:22 In-House vs. Fractional Product Marketing04:45 Balancing Work and Personal Life07:41 Setting Boundaries and Mental Health22:02 Productivity Tips and Techniques30:50 Conclusion and Final ThoughtsHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we sit down with the one and only Jeff Chase, Director of Brand and Product Marketing at Vitally.io, who drops a major hot take—product marketers aren’t marketers (wait, what?!). But Jeff doesn’t stop there. He believes PMMs are the future leaders of marketing, and he’s got the experience and insights to back it up.Tune in as we dive into the evolving role of product marketers in B2B SaaS. From positioning and messaging to why PMMs have the potential to become CMOs, Jeff shares his journey and unique approach to blending product and brand marketing. We also tackle the age-old question: how can PMMs build better relationships with their brand teams?Whether you're a PMM ready to shake up your organization or just curious about where this role is headed, this convo is one you don’t want to miss:PMMs vs. Marketers: Jeff’s surprising take on why product marketers aren’t really marketers.The Future CMO Pipeline: Why Jeff believes product marketers are primed to become the next generation of marketing leaders.The Art of Brand Storytelling: How product marketers can elevate their influence by mastering brand marketing collaboration.Hiring Hacks: Jeff’s refreshing approach to recruitment, and why he believes hiring managers have a deeper responsibility than you think.Copycats Beware: How to stay a step ahead of competitors who love to swipe your messaging.Time Stamps 00:00 Introduction and Host Intros00:56 Special Guest Introduction: Jeff02:02 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:35 The Future of Product Marketing08:55 Building Cross-Functional Relationships10:48 The Role of Brand Marketing14:30 Hiring and Leadership Insights36:21 Dealing with Competitors43:46 Conclusion and Sign-OffShow NotesJeff Chase LinkedIn ProfileHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this episode, Jarod Greene, CMO of Vivint, shares his journey from teaching middle school math to Gartner analyst to CMO today and offers actionable advice for PMMs struggling to gain recognition. Learn how to use research, co-create with sales, and communicate your value to drive impactful product marketing strategies in your workplace.When you let Jarod cook (#lethimcook) and you’re gonna get…How teaching 7th graders prepared Jarod to lead B2B marketing strategy—and why it’s still the hardest job he’s ever done.The “magician” role of product marketers: Why being a chameleon is the ultimate superpower in your company (and how to harness it).Co-create with sales? Yes, please. The surprising reason your best sales reps should help write your next piece of content.Forget the committee—Jarod’s trick to stop internal fights over messaging using the one thing no one can argue with: Data.“I had no idea what PMM was 10 years ago” – how Jarod went from confused to CMO and why it could be your career roadmap too.Content without context = chaos. Jarod’s formula for why great content flops (and how to make it land every time).How to manage up, down, and sideways: Jarod’s guide to becoming a leader before you even get the title.Time Stamps 00:00 We're Not Marketers (S3) - Jarod Greene01:00 Welcome to Season Three!01:46 Introducing Gerard Green03:01 From Teaching to Marketing05:15 The Role of Product Marketers07:15 Becoming a CMO18:03 Content with Context22:19 Co-Creating with Sales28:20 The Content Production Dilemma29:07 The Importance of Research in Marketing30:27 Primary vs. Secondary Research31:22 Leveraging Data for Decision Making39:43 Integrating AI in Marketing Strategies43:34 The Reality of Product Market Fit51:21 Upcoming Projects and EventsShow NotesJarod Greene LinkedIn ProfileUNXPCTD - Explore way AI is revolutionizing B2B Sales Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.