Destination Discourse

Stuart and Adam kick things off with some lighthearted college sports trash talk before welcoming a very special guest co host, Diane Charno, EVP of Marketing at Visit Myrtle Beach and Stuart’s right hand. Together, the trio dig into one of the most uncomfortable questions in modern destination marketing, whether the almighty click still matters in a zero click, AI driven world, and what DMOs should be measuring instead. In Stu’s News, Diane brings a New York Times story about AI generated travel influencers and avatars. That sparks a wider conversation on the difference between influencers and true creators, how AI will reshape pricing and value in the creator economy, why celebrity likeness still dominates algorithms, and why authenticity and real human connection are becoming even more valuable as AI content floods the feed. From there, the group zooms out to the bigger issue behind the headline question, the evolving role of digital display in an era where DMO website traffic is dropping, cookies are fading, and partners are less impressed by raw clicks than ever. Adam introduces his “three legs of the stool” for paid media value, attention, stakeholder value, and targeting, and shows how each has eroded for traditional display. Diane explains how Visit Myrtle Beach is responding by rethinking how display fits in the full journey, layering it with other tactics, and using more sophisticated tools to measure attention and brand lift, not just clicks. The conversation then stretches into measurement, product, and purpose. The trio wrestle with what DMOs should really optimize for, why optimizing for CPM or raw clicks can lead you in the wrong direction, and how to build a more realistic measurement mix that includes visitation, visitor spend, brand lift, attention metrics, and search lift. They also go straight at the uncomfortable trade off, when is another chunk of media spend less valuable than investing the same dollars in product improvements on the ground, and what role DMOs should play in convening and informing product development rather than just promoting what already exists. They close by coming back to first principles. If a DMO cannot clearly explain why it exists and how it creates real impact for the economy, visitors, and residents, no amount of click reports will save it. The click is not dead, but lazy display, lazy testing, and lazy measurement should be. The mandate for the next few years, always be testing, obsess over impact, and get much sharper about which KPIs actually signal value for your stakeholders. In this episode, you will hear:  • A fun opener on BYU vs Clemson and why Stuart is secretly delighted by the outcome  • Diane’s Stu’s News story on AI travel influencers and why virtual avatars are reshaping the influencer debate  • The difference between influencers and true creators, and why creators with real community will be hardest to replace  • How AI generated video and avatars are flooding the feed, and why celebrity likeness still hacks the algorithm  • Diane’s question, “Is the click dead?” and how zero click behavior, AI search, and walled gardens are changing website traffic patterns  • Adam’s three legs of the media stool, attention, stakeholder value, and targeting, and how each is weakening for traditional display  • Why “always be testing” needs to apply across paid, owned, and earned, not just banner creative  • How Visit Myrtle Beach is experimenting with brand lift, attention metrics, and a brand lift index to understand impact across placements  • The danger of optimizing for the wrong KPIs, like cheap CPMs or empty clicks, instead of incremental visitation and real partner value  • The uncomfortable but necessary question, when is a dollar better spent on product improvement than on more media  • Why DMOs need to be at the table for product conversations, using visitor data and insights to guide what gets built next  • A call for every DMO to revisit its core purpose and focus relentlessly on impact, not vanity metrics or legacy habits Call to action Have a strong opinion about clicks, display, AI influencers, or what DMOs should be measuring next? Stuart and Adam want to hear from you. Reach out on LinkedIn or by email if you have a topic you think they are missing or a perspective that challenges the echo chamber, and you might be a future guest on Destination Discourse.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam are together in person in Myrtle Beach for the very first time, recording live from the Grand Strand. Stuart uses the conversation to think out loud about the last few episodes and where DMOs go from here, especially when it comes to who we really exist to serve and how that should shape the future. This is a reflective, slightly uncomfortable, very real conversation about focus, audiences, and how we spend both time and money. Stuart drops the Qui Gon Jinn line, “Your focus determines your reality,” and then applies it to the DMO world, questioning whether we are truly resident focused, or if that has become an easy narrative to justify our existence. Along the way, Adam puts Stuart on the spot and makes him rank order the audiences a DMO serves, forcing a candid conversation about residents, visitors, the business community, and elected officials, and what it would mean if we were honest about who gets priority. In this episode, Stuart and Adam discuss: Recording together in Myrtle Beach for the first time How the last few episodes have shifted Stuart’s thinking about the future of DMOs The gap between what DMOs say and what they actually do Which audiences DMOs serve and how to rank them Whether “we serve residents” is mission or marketing Why DMOs really serve the business community and elected officials today The argument for keeping visitors as the primary focus How resource allocation reveals true priorities The tension between political reality and long term brand building What it looks like to future proof the DMO model Key themes and ideas: Your focus determines your reality Stuart borrows the Qui Gon Jinn quote to frame the entire episode. If our focus is residents, our work, structure, and budget should prove it. If our focus is visitors, that should be just as clear. Either way, our calendars and our budgets tell the truth. Who do DMOs actually serve? Stuart challenges the increasingly popular “we exist to serve residents” story, asking whether it is always honest or whether it sometimes becomes a convenient narrative that plays well with elected officials. He argues that in practice most DMOs are primarily serving the business community and policymakers, whether they admit it or not. Putting the audiences in order Adam turns the tables and makes Stuart rank the audiences DMOs serve. Residents, visitors, local businesses, and elected officials all make the list, but the real value is in the debate about who should come first if you want a healthy, growing destination. Visitors as the primary focus Stuart makes the case that the visitor should still sit at the center of the DMO universe. If you attract the right visitors, deliver great experiences, and generate sustainable economic impact, you create the conditions where residents, businesses, and elected officials all benefit. Time and money as the real scorecard The conversation comes back several times to how DMOs spend their time and money. Strategy decks and mission statements are one thing, but line items and calendars are the real indicators of what a DMO believes its job to be. Rethinking the future of DMO work Building on the last few episodes, Stuart shares how his own thinking is evolving about the role of DMOs in a future that will look very different from today. The episode ends less with easy answers and more with a challenge for leaders to get honest about their priorities and design their organizations around that reality. Who this episode is for: DMO CEOs and executives wrestling with resident first narratives Board members and elected officials who want clarity on what a DMO actually does Marketing and community teams trying to balance political pressure and long term strategy Anyone who feels the DMO model is changing and wants language to talk about it Use this episode as a prompt to look at your own organization and ask: if someone only saw how we allocate our budget and time, who would they say we really serve?

In this Thanksgiving-week episode, Stuart and Adam shake off a few weeks of heavy, future-of-AI doom-spiraling and intentionally zoom out to focus on perspective, gratitude, and what truly matters in destination marketing. It’s lighter, more reflective, and full of listener shout-outs, industry appreciation, and some familiar banter. Opening Banter Stuart kicks things off with an over-the-top Adam introduction that somehow escalates into unicycles, juggling, and bagpipes. The duo sets the stage for a short but sincere episode about gratitude heading into the holiday. Stu’s News The update focuses on Gemini 3 Pro and the accelerating capabilities of frontier AI models. Stuart shares examples of AI building full software environments from a single prompt and reflects on how adoption might take longer than the technology curve suggests. He explains his shift in perspective—moving from fearing a near-term cliff to expecting a slow, multi-year adoption curve. A Level-Setting Conversation on Industry Change Adam reframes the urgency around AI: DMOs tend to adopt slowly, and the industry can’t afford to be passive this time. The hosts agree that the future is coming, the timeline is the only question, and the call is to be proactive without panic. Start turning the ship now, keep the North Star steady, and allow tactics to evolve. Thinking Beyond Marketing Stuart revisits his “DMOs as the operating system for hospitality” concept and broadens the conversation into DMO value beyond promotion. Roles in economic development, workforce, meetings, placemaking, and collaboration emerge as central themes. The hosts highlight the need for first-principles thinking and cross-stakeholder alignment. Listener Appreciation and Community Feedback This episode features a full run of listener shout-outs from Spotify and past episodes. Highlights include: • Nate Graysock’s reflections on PTO culture and destination storytelling. • Caleb Sullivan’s “dance-off” challenge content. • Comments from Tyler Ford and Caleb on supply-chain thinking for visitor journeys. • Dustin Rowe’s question about social content value in the age of LLM indexing. The hosts invite more listeners to comment, review, and join future episodes with strong opinions and bold ideas. Gratitude Reflections Stuart and Adam trade heartfelt thanks for: • The audience that keeps the show going 57 episodes in. • The guests who have stretched their thinking and shaped their leadership. • Their teams—who adapt to constant change and help bring ideas to life. • The CMO Jam cohort and the leaders willing to be vulnerable and collaborative. • An industry full of people who share openly, support one another, and rally in times of need. They also share personal anecdotes, including the LinkedIn message that sparked their partnership and the moments listening back to episodes when they learn from their “podcast selves.” Calls to Action Stuart and Adam ask listeners to: • Share show reviews on Apple Podcasts or comments on Spotify. • Spread the show on LinkedIn to help the industry learn and evolve together. • Submit burning topics or bold takes to join as future guests. • Watch on YouTube when possible for added visuals and community conversation. Closing The episode wraps with warm Thanksgiving wishes, a reminder that travel is an antidote to division, and an invitation for the industry to share predictions heading into the new year.

Stuart and Adam are joined by Brand USA’s Janette Roush for a provocative exploration of the question no one in tourism wants to ask out loud: what happens to DMOs when AI becomes the primary interface for travel inspiration, planning, and booking? The conversation pushes past hype and digs into the existential challenge ahead. If AI tools replace the website, the visitor guide, the itinerary builder, and even the discovery process itself, then DMOs must confront a hard truth: the traditional marketing-driven model will not survive the future that is coming. From sentient-feeling assistants and biometric-based trip recommendations to real-time destination data and frictionless booking layers, the group maps out how travel will be shaped and what roles disappear in an AI-governed world. The conclusion is both blunt and hopeful: DMOs can absolutely remain essential, but only if they evolve fast and focus on what AI cannot replace such as product, leadership, place-shaping, and real-world experience. ⸻ Key Themes AI will consume the travel funnel. Inspiration, research, comparison, and booking collapse into a single AI-led conversation. The era of the destination website is fading. Search, navigation, content hierarchies, and CTAs become irrelevant when AI delivers answers instantly. DMOs face a serious risk of being cut out. Apps, OTAs, and platforms can plug their inventory directly into AI systems, reducing the surface area where destinations are discovered. True DMO value shifts from promotion to product. The things AI cannot replace become the differentiators: live events, sports, culture, infrastructure, hospitality, and on-the-ground experience. Data becomes the new visitor guide. DMOs must own and structure granular, real-time destination data so AI can reliably surface their place as an option. Community leadership becomes essential. DMOs must coordinate across government, residents, small businesses, and partners with far greater alignment and responsibility than ever before. Boards and stakeholders must be educated now. The future is arriving faster than governance models, budgets, and KPIs are prepared for. ⸻ Top Quotes Stuart: “AI is going to plan the trip. The question is whether the DMO has a seat at that table.” Adam: “We have confused activity for relevance. AI is about to expose that.” Janette: “DMOs need to ask a basic question: why do we exist in a world where AI does the planning?” Stuart: “This is not a website conversation. It is a relevance conversation.” Adam: “Live events are the one thing AI cannot disintermediate.” Why This Might Be the Beginning of the End This moment does not signal the end of DMOs. It signals the end of what DMOs have historically been. The old model was built around promoting what already existed, driving traffic to a website, running campaigns, counting clicks, and operating somewhat on the sidelines of community decision-making. The new reality requires DMOs to build what is missing, provide structured data to AI systems, shape the destination itself, measure real impact instead of activity, and lead the ecosystem with intentionality and clarity. The episode argues that AI will eliminate the parts of DMOs that were never the point and elevate the parts that matter most: product development, cultural relevance, destination stewardship, and the real visitor experience. Action Items for DMO Leaders Educate boards and stakeholders about why AI changes everything and why legacy KPIs will not survive. Shift from producing content to producing structured, machine-readable information that AI can use. Invest more heavily in product and experience development, especially live events, arts, sports, culture, and visitor-facing quality improvements. Align the community by leading conversations across municipalities, businesses, residents, and public agencies. Audit current programs and strategies for AI vulnerability and identify what will not hold up in an AI-first ecosystem. Evolve into the place operating system by curating, aggregating, and orchestrating the full experience of the destination.

The game has changed, and not just for marketers. In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker are joined by Kara Franker, CEO of the Florida Keys & Key West, for a candid conversation about how artificial intelligence is forcing DMOs to redefine their purpose. Kara argues that the future of destination marketing isn’t just about promotion, it’s about education. As AI transforms how travelers discover, plan, and book trips, DMOs must become teachers and translators, helping their stakeholders adapt to a new machine-readable world. Together, the trio explores:  • Why even AI “early adopters” are struggling to keep up with the speed of change  • How DMOs can shift from being channel owners to community educators  • What it means to prepare local businesses for “agent-driven discovery”  • How schema, structure, and storytelling make destinations visible to AI  • Why job descriptions and success metrics must evolve beyond vanity metrics  • The coming shift from paid to earned media in LLM search results  • Why consolidation and radical collaboration may be the only path forward Kara shares how she’s helping Florida Keys stakeholders future-proof their digital presence, from captains to hoteliers, while Adam and Stuart debate how AI will upend the DMO business model.

This week on Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam dive into one of their most candid conversations yet, a real-time therapy session about the changing relationship between DMOs and agencies in the age of AI. The episode kicks off with Stu’s News and a jaw-dropping update: OpenAI now allows users to shop and pay for products directly inside ChatGPT. No clicks. No websites. Just conversation. Stuart calls it “the moment everything changes,” and Adam agrees this isn’t just about travel; it’s about everything. From there, Adam flips the script. For once, he brings the topic, and it’s personal. He opens up about the existential crisis facing agencies as automation erodes the tactical work they’ve always been paid for. If AI can plan, buy, and optimize campaigns in seconds, where does that leave human creativity? Together, Stuart and Adam explore:  • Why the traditional agency model is breaking under the weight of AI.  • How DMOs and vendors are now in the same fight for relevance.  • The shrinking gap between in-house and agency talent.  • What it looks like to rebuild relationships around ideation, not execution.  • Why radical collaboration may be the only way forward.  • And how to measure value when what you’re selling is thinking. Stuart challenges agencies to prove their worth through ideas instead of deliverables, and Adam asks how destinations can structure partnerships and RFPs that reward innovation instead of commoditization. It’s raw, honest, and maybe a little uncomfortable, but it’s exactly the kind of conversation the industry needs right now. Key Quote: “Agencies have always been paid for what they do. The future belongs to those who get paid for how they think.” — Adam Stoker

We promote the power of travel—but are we actually taking it ourselves? In this episode, Jennifer Walker from Visit Dallas challenges the tourism industry to practice what it preaches. With burnout on the rise and vacation days left unused, this candid conversation explores whether DMOs are setting the right example when it comes to rest, recovery, and experiencing their own destinations like a visitor. From mandated time off and immersive staff experiences to infinite PTO and internal culture shifts, Stuart, Adam, and Jennifer dive deep into what it really means to walk the walk in destination marketing—and why it might be time to make vacation not just encouraged, but expected. What You’ll Learn:  • Why many tourism professionals struggle to take (or fully unplug during) vacation  • Examples of organizations redefining vacation culture, from Visit Florida to Meet Minneapolis  • The pros and cons of unlimited PTO—and how it actually plays out in practice  • How internal culture impacts external credibility  • Why every DMO should revisit its policies around travel, time off, and team well-being Featured Quote: “If we’re not going to be the advocates for travel, who is?” – Jennifer Walker Shoutouts: Jennifer also shares highlights from Visit Dallas’ “Maverick Can-Do Spirit” rebrand and how rolling it out locally first is fueling community-wide adoption.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, we’re joined by returning guest Caleb Sullivan and first-time guest Tyler Ford, an outsider from the automotive world who just might have the fresh perspective the tourism industry needs. The conversation kicks off with a lively debate about Las Vegas’s new “Five Days of Fabulous” campaign—is it a smart earned media play or a short-sighted brand devaluation? But the real shift happens when Tyler introduces a bold idea: What if DMOs started thinking like supply chain managers? Drawing lessons from the automotive industry, Caleb and Tyler challenge the traditional marketing funnel and offer a new lens for thinking about the visitor journey—one built on continuous improvement, systemic thinking, and the idea that every touchpoint in the destination contributes to the final “product.” We cover everything from earned media vs. fire sales, stakeholder pressure, and brand value, to the concept of marginal gains and the need for more rigor and process in tourism. Whether you’re tired of funnel thinking or looking for ways to operationalize destination management, this episode delivers a compelling new paradigm. ⸻ Topics Include:  • Las Vegas’s “Fabulous” campaign: brand builder or brand buster?  • What destination marketers can learn from automotive supply chains  • Why “the funnel” fails modern tourism  • Applying “The 5 Whys” and root-cause analysis to tourism challenges  • How DMOs can expand their role beyond marketing to shaping the product

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam sit down with marketing strategist John Gardner to unpack a bold new framework for modern marketers: The Four I’s of Marketing — Intelligence, Individualization, Integration, and Inspiration. As traditional approaches like the Four P’s (Product, Price, Place, Promotion) lose relevance, this conversation explores how DMOs can better serve visitors and stakeholders in an AI-powered, experience-driven world. But first, in Stu’s News, Stuart shares a jaw-dropping story about AI outperforming humans in hurricane forecasting. As Myrtle Beach prepared for Hurricane Imelda, Google’s DeepMind model predicted the storm’s unusual turn days before traditional models caught up. It’s a clear sign of how AI is reshaping decision-making — and a hint at what’s coming for marketers, too. Referenced in Stu’s News:  • Michael Lowry’s Substack: New AI Model Shines During Hurricane https://michaelrlowry.substack.com/p/new-ai-model-shines-during-hurricane  • Tweet from @WeatherProf: “This is one of the most stunning hurricane model forecasts I’ve ever seen.” https://x.com/WeatherProf/status/1972646601718935778 ⸻ What You’ll Learn:  • Why the Four P’s may no longer cut it in today’s marketing landscape  • How the Four I’s provide a framework for navigating disruption  • The challenge (and opportunity) of individualization in the DMO world  • What DMOs can learn from brands like Chick-fil-A and Dollywood  • How to adapt your marketing team and strategy for an AI-driven future ⸻ Key Takeaways:  • AI is already outperforming humans in high-stakes areas — marketing is next.  • DMOs must go deeper into product and experience, not just promotion.  • Individualization is hard but essential — and the tech is catching up fast.  • Marketing teams must become AI-enabled generalists, not siloed specialists.  • You don’t need all the answers to get started — move forward now. ⸻ Call to Action: If this episode challenged or inspired you, subscribe, share, and leave a review — and don’t forget to weigh in: Which Star Wars movie really is the best — Empire or Return of the Jedi? (Hint: Stuart has strong opinions.)

It’s the 50th episode of Destination Discourse, and Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker mark the milestone by taking a reflective walk through their biggest learnings and shifts in perspective since launching the show. In a heartfelt, humorous, and occasionally roast-filled conversation, they unpack how their thinking has evolved on three major fronts: the role of paid vs. owned media, the importance of measuring what truly matters, and how they now view the role of a DMO in the community. Along the way, they revisit some of their favorite guest moments—from Zeke Coleman’s red-pill data analogy to Will Seccombe’s cautionary tale about risk—and talk about how those insights have changed them as professionals. Adam surprises Stuart with a tribute to his recent Content Marketer of the Year award, and both hosts get vulnerable about their professional growth, podcast therapy moments, and the impact of building this community. Whether you’ve been listening since Episode 1 or you’re just discovering the show, this milestone episode captures exactly what makes Destination Discourse so unique: smart, unfiltered conversations about the real work of destination leadership. ⸻ 🔑 Key Takeaways / Learning Objectives:  • Discover how Stuart’s views on paid, earned, and owned media have shifted—and why he’s no longer so bullish on owned media alone.  • Understand the deeper KPI conversation, including why community sentiment and team impact may matter more than traditional vanity metrics.  • Hear how both hosts’ views on the role of a DMO have evolved—from marketers to strategic community collaborators.  • Revisit favorite past episodes and the moments that changed their thinking—from data debates to leadership gold.  • Reflect on the human side of leadership, risk-taking, and resilience—plus how podcasting itself can be a growth tool. ⸻ 💬 Notable Quotes: “The only way we fail is if we give up.” – Stuart “Paid media is the vehicle for attention, but trust comes from owned storytelling.” – Adam “I don’t think we’re just marketers anymore—we’re conveners, collaborators, and catalysts.” – Stuart “This show has 10x’d my learning rate. I finally get what DMOs go through.” – Adam ⸻ 📝 Additional Notes:  • This is one of the most personal and reflective episodes yet—equal parts roast, recap, and real talk.  • Includes a surprise segment where Adam flips the script and honors Stuart’s Content Marketer of the Year award.  • A great primer episode for new listeners to understand the show’s mission—and for loyal fans to see how far it’s come.  • Encouragement for listeners to suggest topics, share feedback, and even come on the show.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam sit down with Joe Heller, CMO of Discover Philadelphia, to tackle one of the biggest challenges facing DMOs today: how to break through the sea of sameness in meetings and conventions marketing. The conversation explores why traditional advertising often falls flat in the B2B space and how destinations can shift toward disruptive promotions and attention-grabbing tactics that make a lasting impression on meeting planners and attendees alike. Joe shares how Philadelphia approaches meetings and conventions with creative strategies—from airport takeovers to cheesesteak giveaways—and how DMOs can borrow lessons from SaaS companies to nurture leads and build stronger planner relationships. Stuart and Adam add their own experiences, from Myrtle Beach’s pickleball tournaments at trade shows to the power of AI tools that personalize outreach at scale. Key takeaways include: Why attention is more valuable than awareness in B2B marketing. How DMOs can use disruptive promotions to stand out at trade shows. The growing role of DMOs in filling attendance once an event is booked. What destinations can learn from SaaS lead-nurturing strategies. Why sales and marketing alignment is critical for winning and retaining events. If you’ve ever wondered how to make your destination stand out in the competitive meetings market, this episode offers practical ideas, candid examples, and fresh ways to rethink B2B marketing. CTA: Enjoying the show? Leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and share this episode with a colleague. It helps us keep pushing the industry forward.

This week’s episode goes deep into one of the most complex and often misunderstood conversations around artificial intelligence: its environmental impact. Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker are joined by returning guest C.A. Clark, who first appeared back in Episode 7 to talk about AI ethics. This time, the three pick up a conversation that started off-mic and turned into one of the most challenging, thought-provoking discussions we’ve had on the show. Before diving into the main topic, we kick off with Stu’s News and highlight Brand USA’s new “America the Beautiful” campaign website, built in collaboration with Mindtrip and Miles Partnership. The site uses conversational AI to blend search, social, and interactivity, pointing toward a future where destination websites become more dynamic, personalized, and conversational. We explore how this model could influence the way DMOs think about their digital ecosystems moving forward. From there, the focus shifts to the heart of the episode: AI’s environmental footprint. This issue has generated headlines, hesitation, and heated debate—but also a lot of confusion. Together, we dig into:  • Context and comparisons – Why asking about AI’s carbon emissions without comparing them to activities like streaming Netflix, scrolling TikTok, or eating a hamburger can be misleading.  • Scale vs. individual use – A single AI prompt may have the impact of a few seconds of TV, yet the aggregate demand across millions of users raises larger questions about infrastructure and power.  • Efficiency gains – Google’s latest research shows AI models becoming 33 times more energy efficient and 44 times lower in carbon footprint in just a year, underscoring how fast improvements are happening.  • Industry focus – Why some boards and organizations risk becoming distracted by environmental arguments, potentially at the expense of preparing for seismic shifts in consumer behavior driven by AI.  • The bigger picture – How AI might not only consume energy but also help us optimize industries, reduce waste, and solve environmental challenges we’ve struggled to tackle for decades. Throughout the conversation, the three emphasize intellectual honesty over ideology. They call out the dangers of apathy, the risks of letting “AI fatigue” stall progress, and the need for DMOs to move beyond fear or excuses. Whether you’re an AI skeptic or already experimenting with it daily, this episode challenges you to think more deeply about the trade-offs, realities, and opportunities ahead. Key Takeaways:  • AI is far from carbon-neutral, but its impact per use is smaller than many fear—and shrinking fast.  • Environmental comparisons matter: a hamburger, a flight, or a Netflix binge has exponentially higher impact than a ChatGPT prompt.  • The conversation should shift from fear to strategy: how will AI reshape consumer expectations, and what must DMOs do now to stay relevant?  • Experimentation is no longer optional—leaders who avoid AI risk falling behind as the pace of change accelerates. Why listen? This episode embodies what Destination Discourse aims to do: have honest, nuanced conversations that the industry might shy away from, while pushing professionals to ask tougher questions and prepare for what’s next. It’s not about telling you what to think—it’s about giving you the context to think differently. If you find this episode valuable, share it with your colleagues, leave a review, and subscribe so you don’t miss future conversations shaping the future of destination marketing.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam are joined by Christian Mengel of St. Joseph CVB—who is not the dating site, despite the name—for a compelling discussion about what destination marketers can learn from the decline of traditional media. Christian brings his background in journalism to unpack how newspapers, TV, and radio lost their position as trusted sources, and how DMOs may be on a similar path if they don’t adapt to shifting consumer behavior and technology. They explore:  • The new marketing equation: Attention + Trust = Success  • Why a Tampa real estate agent’s viral home tours offer a masterclass in modern content strategy  • How media lost control—and how AI threatens to do the same to DMOs  • Why consistency, creativity, and community connection are the new currency  • How to build coalitions of creators to shape narrative and build trust  • Why you can’t just claim authenticity—you have to earn it  • What Myrtle Beach is doing to future-proof its voice with a local Creator Collective This episode is equal parts warning, wisdom, and inspiration for DMOs ready to evolve before it’s too late. Call to Action: If you’re in destination marketing, don’t keep this episode to yourself. Share it with a colleague, subscribe on your favorite platform, and join us in redefining what it means to be relevant in the AI era.

We brought Destination Discourse to the main stage at ESTO 2025 for a special live debate—and it did not disappoint. In this high-energy session, Stuart and Adam tackled two provocative questions shaping the future of destination marketing:  1. Will DMO websites be irrelevant in 5 years?  2. Will the ROI of paid media continue to decline? With the audience choosing which side each of us had to argue (regardless of our actual opinions), we explored both sides of the argument—pushing boundaries, challenging assumptions, and asking what the future might hold for destination marketing. Key themes included:  • The rise of AI and conversational interfaces replacing traditional search behavior  • The shifting value of brand in the prompt era  • The battle between OTAs and destination-owned ecosystems  • Whether performance metrics are becoming a crutch or a compass  • What DMO websites should evolve into—if they’re going to matter at all  • Why upper funnel investment might be the smartest play in a fragmented media landscape We wrapped with audience Q&A and left the room with more questions than answers—which was exactly the point. ⸻ Takeaways:  • Don’t build a website. Build an immersive, personalized platform.  • Brand matters more than ever when AI chooses what to surface.  • Paid media isn’t dying—it’s just getting more expensive and harder to measure.  • If you’re not in the prompt, you’re not in the trip.  • DMOs must stop measuring what’s easy and start measuring what matters.  • The future isn’t fixed—and that should excite us. ⸻ Call to Action: Whether you were in the room or not, we hope this episode gets you thinking differently. Share it with a colleague, spark a conversation, and stay tuned for more Destination Discourse episodes that challenge conventional wisdom.

In this jam-packed episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam welcome Kristen Adamo, President & CEO of Go Providence, for a powerful conversation about the evolving role of destination marketing organizations—and more specifically—the CEO’s role in product development and community stewardship. They explore: • How Go Providence helped save WaterFire and turned it into an economic development lever • Why advocacy starts with being at the table, and sometimes means setting the table • How marketers are uniquely positioned to become CEOs (and why more of them should be) • The difference between promoting a destination and shaping it • The importance of “marketing the marketing”—including leave-behind ROI cards, op-eds, and internal newsletters • Why product development is brand management—and the risk of promoting an experience that doesn’t exist • How DMOs can gain influence with elected officials and avoid being seen as a “nice-to-have” Takeaways: → If you’re not involved in product, you may be promoting something that’s no longer competitive. → The most successful DMOs act as connectors, collaborators, and quiet power players—without needing the credit. → Marketing skills (storytelling, communication, vision) are becoming critical CEO traits in a post-COVID world. → Local advocacy isn’t optional anymore—it’s a core part of destination leadership. → Want to be indispensable? Tie every initiative back to room nights and community impact.

In this no-guest, think-out-loud episode, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker tackle one of the most urgent shifts in destination marketing: how AI-powered trip planning and booking could change everything DMOs know about awareness, attribution, and conversion. They unpack Google Ads’ new branded search metric and why it may signal a swing back toward brand-first strategies, then dive into the coming challenge of Large Language Model (LLM) optimization. From schema markup and unique first-person content to integrated paid partnerships and community-driven brand amplification, they explore what it will take to make sure your destination is “in the prompt” when AI tools start recommending and booking trips. This is an unfiltered conversation about the pendulum swing from clicks back to brand, the blending of paid, earned, and owned media, and why attention, not just impressions, will be the new currency. Takeaways:  • Why Google’s new branded search metric hints at a return to brand-first marketing.  • How AI trip planning tools may bypass your website entirely and what to do about it.  • LLM optimization basics: schema, unique content, and authoritative sources.  • Why DMOs must think beyond their own brand to elevate the destination’s brand.  • How to make paid media dollars work harder through integrated, multi-channel partnerships. Call to Action: If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe, rate, and share Destination Discourse with a friend in the industry. And if you think we’re wrong or have your own perspective on the “brand in the prompt” era, reach out to join the conversation.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker welcome Dan Janes from Madden Media for a wide-ranging conversation that connects the dots between AI, agency structures, RFPs, and the way destinations approach marketing funnels. The trio kicks things off with Stu’s News on the release of ChatGPT-5, exploring its leap in reasoning, ability to understand intent, and potential to transform how teams work and problem-solve. From there, they dig into Dan’s “feisty” topic: why RFPs are often built for the past instead of the future—and how shifting them from a checklist of services to outcome-driven goals could spark innovation and better results. They also examine why the traditional marketing funnel no longer reflects today’s consumer behavior, what destinations should do to adapt, and why multifunctional, agile agency teams may be better equipped to thrive in this environment. Key Takeaways:  • AI is evolving fast—ChatGPT-5’s ability to understand intent and adapt its approach could revolutionize destination marketing workflows.  • Outcome over process—RFPs should be written around the results you want, not just the list of services you think you need.  • The marketing funnel is broken—today’s traveler has control, choice, and a more active role in the journey, requiring destinations to rethink their approach.  • Agency structures must adapt—cross-functional, nimble teams are better equipped to respond to rapid shifts in consumer behavior and technology.  • Content + context are key—ownable stories and hyper-relevant messaging will win trust and drive action. If you’re in the DMO or agency world, this episode will push you to challenge assumptions, rethink outdated processes, and explore what it takes to stay relevant in an AI-driven, consumer-controlled era. If you found value in this episode, please like, subscribe, and share it with a friend—whether they’re on the DMO side, the agency side, or just a fellow marketing nerd who loves a good rethink.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam welcome long-time listener and industry friend Caleb Sullivan for a candid conversation about what makes the vendor–DMO relationship thrive—or fail. Drawing from experiences on both sides of the table, they share the right (and wrong) ways to approach business development in the tourism space, why trust and authenticity are more valuable than a hard sell, and how playing the long game often pays off. From pandemic-era Clubhouse connections to lessons learned from awkward first pitches, the trio dives into practical tips for vendors trying to break in, DMOs evaluating partners, and anyone navigating this close-knit “friendship economy.” Expect stories, straight talk, and plenty of good-natured ribbing. What You’ll Learn in This Episode:  • Why authenticity and listening beat a one-size-fits-all sales pitch  • How to say “no” in a way that keeps the door open for future opportunities  • Why vendors should focus on creating value beyond the transaction  • The role of trust, likability, and long-term commitment in closing deals  • Ways DMOs can give vendors a fair shot without wasting time  • How to leverage industry events for meaningful connections If you enjoy the show, make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode—and share it with someone in the tourism industry who could use these insights.

In this episode, Stuart and Adam are joined by Steven Totten of Visit Phoenix for an unfiltered conversation on risk, innovation, and the sameness plaguing the travel and tourism industry. The trio tackles the dangers of navel-gazing, the repetitive creative churn from agencies, and the cultural fear that stifles innovation across DMOs. Stuart shares behind-the-scenes details on the launch of Charlie’s Place, a six-part podcast three years in the making, now picked up by Pushkin Industries. It’s a masterclass in place-based storytelling and branded entertainment done right. Steven explains why Visit Phoenix is approaching its DMO like a startup, embracing in-kind partnerships, retail-inspired merchandise drops, and intentionally choosing a creative agency outside the travel industry. The conversation dives deep into why risk-taking is feared, how comfort and inertia dominate DMO culture, and what it takes to break free—including strong internal communication, stakeholder education, and a shift from celebrating outcomes to celebrating strategic courage. Key Topics:  • Launch of Charlie’s Place podcast with Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and Pushkin  • The problem with outsourcing vision to agencies  • Risk aversion and fear-based culture in tourism  • Why most DMO org charts and funding models are all over the map  • The difference between celebrating risk vs. normalizing it  • Startup mindset and treating innovation as the core mission  • How Visit Phoenix is shifting perception through bold creative and ROI-focused partnerships

In Episode 40, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker welcome Jim Harenchar, President of RMG USA, for a deep (and at times spicy) conversation on marketing attribution, ROI, and the complicated relationship between DMOs, agencies, and vendors. What starts as golf banter quickly tees off into a much larger dialogue about how—and whether—the travel industry is measuring what truly matters. From changing consumer behaviors to the dangers of over-attributing performance to the wrong channels, this episode challenges long-held assumptions and makes the case for smarter, more collaborative, and more nuanced measurement. Topics Covered:  • Golf as a growth engine: post-COVID trends, off-course vs. on-course participation, and product development opportunities  • Why DMOs need to adapt to shifting demographics and behaviors  • The problem with vanity metrics, over-attribution, and last-click bias  • ROI vs. awareness: why both matter but need different yardsticks  • Challenges with funding models, resource constraints, and vendor overload  • Agency dynamics, incentive misalignment, and the role of experimentation budgets  • A call for industry-wide frameworks and shared measurement models Notable Quotes:  • “You wouldn’t measure success for hunting the same way you’d measure success for farming.” – Stuart  • “Sometimes we’re not promoting golf—we’re promoting a bad golf experience.” – Adam  • “If we continue to do the same things, expecting the same results, we’re fooling ourselves.” – Stuart  • “Awareness is valuable. Without it, no one can transact with you.” – Adam  • “Let’s stop selling silver bullets and start selling collaboration.” – Stuart Next Up: Stuart and Adam will be live at ESTO—bring your questions, your hot takes, and your love for the Stu’s News jingle. Yes, there might be swag.