The Pursuit of Beauty with Matthew Wilkinson

Join us for an in-depth conversation with Chris Hoyt, composer and church musician, as we explore the rich tradition of Anglican church music and the ongoing debate between traditional and contemporary worship styles. This comprehensive discussion covers everything from organ repertoire to hymn arrangements, making it essential viewing for church musicians, worship leaders, and anyone interested in Anglican liturgical music. (The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast Episode 23)Traditional Anglican Music Heritage and Cultural Continuity - Chris Hoyt emphasizes that being Anglican encompasses more than theology and church government - it means embracing 500 years of artistic and cultural tradition. He argues against the casual dismissal of this heritage in favor of personal musical preferences, highlighting how Anglican chant serves as a "tremendous gift to the church Catholic" and a flexible tool for singing scriptures. The discussion delves into what constitutes appropriate church music, with both speakers agreeing that context is crucial. Hoyt shares examples of using challenging repertoire like Messiaen's works in specific liturgical moments, emphasizing that music must serve the worship experience rather than showcase artistic expression. They explore how the Psalms provide a model for incorporating a wide range of human emotions - from joy to anguish - into liturgical music.A significant portion of the conversation addresses the practical reality facing the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA), where many parishes only have guitar players rather than organists. Hoyt advocates for gradually growing congregations toward traditional music while acknowledging the integrity of contemporary Christian music. The speakers discuss successful examples of churches incorporating hymnal repertoire with contemporary instrumentation.We explore the complexities of blended worship services, with both musicians sharing their experiences. They discuss the technical challenges of combining traditional and contemporary elements effectively, including the importance of keyboard-driven arrangements over guitar-driven ones for aesthetic continuity. Specific examples include incorporating brass ensembles with both traditional hymns and contemporary songs during major feast days.We share our approaches to challenging repertoire, from Duruflé's works to Bach's organ compositions. They emphasize the importance of preparation and giving one's best effort as an offering to God, rather than pursuing perfection for its own sake. The conversation touches on the balance between artistic excellence and pastoral sensitivity in choosing appropriate music for different congregational contexts.Hoyt discusses his published collections, including "20 Hymn Voluntaries" and "75 Hymn Tunes Reharmonized," explaining how these works arose from practical liturgical needs. He shares specific examples of reharmonizations that reflect the emotional content of different hymn verses, particularly those dealing with penitential themes or the Passion of Christ.We include examples from Ethiopian Orthodox, Syriac, and other Eastern Christian traditions, exploring how different cultures approach the balance between reverence and celebration in communion music. This includes fascinating insights into liturgical dancing and the use of drums during the Eucharist in some traditions, challenging Western assumptions about appropriate worship music.We conclude with deeper theological reflections on music's role in Christian formation. Hoyt argues that church music should be the "fountainhead" that flows out to transform community life, bringing back simple pleasures like communal singing and dancing. They discuss how authentic Christian culture can serve as an "oasis in a desert place" by recovering God's good gifts in creation, including music's role in the cosmic choir of worship.

Dr. Alexander Lingas — musicologist, conductor, and Founding Director of Capella Romana — joins Matthew Wilkinson for one of the most wide-ranging conversations in the history of the Pursuit of Beauty podcast. From reconstructing the lost sounds of Hagia Sophia to conducting Byzantine chant at King Charles III's coronation, Lingas has spent 35 years at the intersection of sacred music scholarship and performance. This is the definitive interview on the Byzantine chant tradition, its history, its revival, and its future.Lingas traces the full arc of his career: growing up in a Greek Orthodox parish in Portland, Oregon; doctoral studies in Byzantine chant at the University of British Columbia under Dimitri Konomos; a Fulbright year in Athens studying under the legendary Lykouros Angelopoulos; postdoctoral work in Oxford under Metropolitan Kallistos Ware; and nearly two decades teaching at City University of London. Along the way he founded Capella Romana — now in its 35th year — which has become the world's leading ensemble for Byzantine and medieval Orthodox sacred music, as well as the music of the Christian East more broadly.The conversation goes deep into the musicology. Lingas explains the difference between the "new method" notation introduced in the early 19th century and the medieval Byzantine notation it replaced, and what it means to take a "what you see is what you get" approach to manuscripts that haven't been performed in 500 years. He unpacks how Capella Romana's landmark recordings — Lost Voices of Hagia Sophia, the St. Catherine's Sinai Vespers, Cyprus and Venice in the East — were constructed from manuscript sources, and why this music rarely finds its way back into parish worship. He also gives an extraordinary account of the calophonic chant style of St. John Koukouzelis and the Byzantine ars nova of the 13th and 14th centuries — a sacred music tradition so sophisticated that it eventually transcended text altogether into abstract vocables, which Lingas connects directly to the Hesychast theology of divine energies and angelic liturgy.Other topics include: the full history of Lykouros Angelopoulos and the Greek Byzantine Choir and their foundational role in the modern chant revival; the Romanian, Serbian, and Transylvanian chant traditions and how they diverged from the Byzantine mainstream; the contested question of the organ in Orthodox worship and the difference between a cappella practice and a cappella doctrine; the music of Tikey Zes and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America; the Appalachian music project and its theological and musicological problems; Arvo Pärt and the Odes of Repentance recording; collaborative work with composers Robert Kyr and Einojuhani Rautavaara; and the grants, publications, and institutional infrastructure that sustain this work.Near the end of the conversation, Lingas reflects on his recent retirement from Capella Romana after 35 years, his involvement with the Institute of Sacred Arts at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary, and his experience at the coronation of King Charles III — where he served first as a liturgical consultant advising on how to represent the Orthodox traditions of Prince Philip, and then as the director of the Byzantine choir that performed at Westminster Abbey.This episode is essential listening for anyone serious about Orthodox sacred music, Byzantine chant, the theology of beauty, liturgical theology, or the history of Christian worship.

Neil's links:  @dirtpoorrobins  https://www.dirtpoorrobins.com/In this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast, Matthew Wilkinson speaks with musician and rock star Neil Basil DeGraide of Dirt Poor Robins about faith, music, culture, and the search for truth in the modern world.Neil shares the story of his journey from Catholicism through Protestant and charismatic churches and eventually into Eastern Orthodoxy. He reflects on growing up in New England during the Catholic scandals, searching for authentic Christianity, and discovering the importance of tradition and historical continuity in the Church.The conversation also explores the relationship between miracles, discernment, and the modern desire for spiritual experience. Matthew and Neil discuss the differences between charismatic spirituality and the Orthodox understanding of spiritual life.Later in the conversation, the discussion turns toward music, composition, and the philosophy of art. Neil explains how his musical upbringing shaped his career as a composer and producer. He describes how modern recording technology allows a single musician to simulate orchestral sound through layered samples and live performance techniques.Matthew and Neil also reflect on film music, modern composition, and the changing role of melody in contemporary culture. They discuss composers such as John Williams and Hans Zimmer, and consider how modern media shapes the way audiences hear and understand music.Finally, the conversation moves into a deeper discussion about rock music, cultural trauma, modern art, and the purpose of artistic expression in a technological age. What does modern music reveal about our civilization? Can art respond to cultural crisis? And how should Christians think about music that emerges from broken cultural conditions?This wide-ranging discussion explores faith, aesthetics, music theory, and cultural philosophy in a thoughtful and engaging way.

Dr. William Renwick joins the podcast to discuss Sarum chant, the medieval English plainchant tradition centered on Salisbury Cathedral that once dominated worship across most of England, Scotland, parts of Ireland, and even Northern France. William is a retired music theory professor from McMaster University in Ontario, Canada, and has devoted the latter part of his career to transcribing, editing, and publishing the entire Sarum chant repertoire at his free website, sarum-chant.ca.In this conversation, William explains the important distinction between the Western rite, the concept of "use," and the word "chant" itself. He walks through how Salisbury's scribes produced such detailed and thorough liturgical books in the 12th and 13th centuries that their system became the standard for roughly 80 percent of English churches. He also discusses the York and Hereford uses, how they compare to Sarum, and the practical reality that very few musical manuscripts survive from those traditions.One of the highlights of this episode is William's live vocal demonstrations of the differences between Sarum chant and standard Gregorian chant. He sings the Sarum and Roman versions of the Orbis Factor Kyrie and an Agnus Dei to illustrate how the melodies share a common origin but diverge in specific intervals and melodic turns. He also demonstrates the Sarum psalm tones, the York gospel tone, and a fascinating St. Stephen's Day prose featuring extended melismatic singing on a single vowel.William shares his perspective on performance practice, arguing that medieval liturgy was a full-time daily activity, not a polished concert performance. He draws an unexpected parallel between plainchant and jazz, noting that both traditions thrive on variation, personal interpretation, and a refusal to be pinned down to a single "correct" version. He also addresses the Abbey of Solesmes and the way their editorial choices may have smoothed over legitimate regional diversity across the Western chant tradition.The conversation covers the sheer volume of medieval liturgical material that has been lost or abandoned since the Reformation. William demonstrates this by showing the seven volumes needed just for Sarum Matins throughout the year, compared to roughly half that for the Roman Tridentine tradition. He explains how both Protestant and Catholic reformations drastically simplified worship, and how the Franciscan preference for simpler liturgy influenced the Roman books that became standard after the Council of Trent.William also explores the surprising connections between Sarum chant and Anglican chant, showing how Renaissance composers like Thomas Tallis based their harmonized psalm chants directly on Sarum psalm tones and their modal endings. He discusses fauxbourdon, the use of drones, the role of the organ in medieval worship, and the Neumae, which are modal melodic codas sung at the end of psalm groups during Matins, Lauds, and Vespers.For anyone interested in starting Sarum chant at their own church, William offers practical advice. He suggests beginning with a simple communion chant in English accompanied on the organ, or introducing an English Kyrie or Agnus Dei from the Sarum repertoire. All of these materials are available for free download at sarum-chant.ca. He has also published printed books in two English styles, one following the Book of Common Prayer and King James Bible tradition, and one following the Douay-Rheims Bible for those with a Roman Catholic sensibility.The episode wraps up with a discussion of organ music, including William's love of Tournemire's L'Orgue Mystique, his experience studying with Gerre Hancock, and Matthew's own background in organ performance in Charleston, South Carolina, at St. Michael's Church, which has a historical connection to Johann Pachelbel's son Carl Theodore.Website: sarum-chant.ca

Why do some coptic icons look cartoonish? Makary argues that the loss of apprenticeship, the absence of formal art education, and the pressure of rapid church construction have weakened artistic formation. Iconography is not a matter of copying lines and colors, but of understanding composition, light, volume, and the relationship between the image, the viewer, and the liturgical space. Sacred art must be treated as art in its fullness, not as a mechanical formula.The conversation then moves into the deep historical roots of Coptic art in ancient Egypt. Themes such as resurrection, eternity, the field of reeds, the symbolism of wheat and the bread of life, and even the monotheistic experiment of Akhenaten reveal profound continuities between ancient Egyptian religious vision and early Christian theology. We also explore the development of encaustic painting in early Christian icons, including connections to the Fayoum mummy portraits and the Sinai Pantocrator, and how the material discipline of hot wax painting shaped both technique and spiritual intentionality.Islamic rule in Egypt under the Fatimid, Abbasid, Umayyad, Mamluk, and Ottoman periods also played a decisive role in shaping Coptic iconography. Workshops often produced art for churches, mosques, and palaces alike, and cross-cultural exchange influenced woodwork, pattern, clothing, and visual language. Armenian and Greek iconographers contributed to later revivals, while periods of persecution and rebuilding left visible layers in church architecture and decoration. The result is a tradition marked by resilience, adaptation, and artistic richness rather than isolation.We also discuss how churches are visually “programmed.” The Ascension in the apse, Eucharistic typologies in the sanctuary, saints and biblical cycles in the nave, and commissioning scenes in the narthex reveal that iconography is theological architecture. Coptic art historically integrated liturgy, theology, and space in a unified visual language. Recovering this coherence may be essential for the renewal of sacred art today, especially in diaspora contexts where architecture, music, and iconography must harmonize within new cultural environments.Finally, the episode engages modern art directly. From Cubism and Impressionism to Van Gogh, Degas, and the modern sacred arts movement in Paris, we examine how medieval and Romanesque principles reemerge in modern movements. Ethiopian iconography, with its bold abstraction and graphic intensity, anticipated many developments associated with twentieth-century art. Rather than rejecting modern artistic exploration, Makary suggests that the iconographer should engage the totality of art and offer it to Christ, revealing objective theological truth through line, color, and light.

In this conversation, I sit down with Aidan Hart, an internationally renowned iconographer, liturgical artist, and multiple-time artist commissioned by King Charles III, to explore the meaning of sacred art in the modern world.We discuss what iconography really is, why hierarchy does not mean domination but the transmission of grace, and how the architecture of East and West reveals radically different theological visions. Aidan explains the difference between Romanesque and Byzantine art, why darkness in a church reveals light rather than hides it, and how sacred geometry quietly shapes the composition of icons.We also explore the surprising connections between Celtic and Coptic Christianity, the Egyptian roots of interlaced design, and how early trade routes shaped Christian art in Britain. Along the way, Aidan reflects on his time as a novice monk, his work in monasteries, and why he ultimately left the hermitage in order to live a quieter life.The conversation moves into modern art (Kandinsky, Brancusi, Matisse) and how 20th-century abstraction was deeply influenced by Orthodox iconography. We discuss elongation in icon painting, the meaning of abstraction, and the hidden mathematical proportions behind sacred images.If you are interested in theology, sacred architecture, hierarchy, beauty, Orthodox Christianity, Romanesque art, or the philosophy of modern art, this episode is for you.Aidan's sites: https://www.aidanharticons.com/https://www.aidanhartmosaics.com/https://www.aidanharticons.com/furnishings/my sites: https://matthewwilkinson.net/https://www.patreon.com/MatthewWilkinsonMusic

Modern music, classical music, avant-garde, tonality, postmodernism, and music philosophy are at the center of this conversation between composer and analyst Samuel Andreyev and host Matthew Wilkinson. Together, they examine one of the most common stories we are told about modern music and ask whether it is actually true.A central claim explored here is that tonality never disappeared. While figures such as Pierre Boulez, Karlheinz Stockhausen, and Milton Babbitt developed new and experimental musical systems, tonal music continued to exist alongside them. The conversation challenges the idea that Western music followed a single, linear path away from tradition.The episode looks closely at the role of the avant-garde. Rather than destroying earlier musical languages, the avant-garde expanded the range of what was possible. Andreyev argues that modernism did not replace older forms but added new ones, creating a plural musical landscape rather than a hierarchy with a single center.Wilkinson raises questions about hierarchy and postmodern thought, asking whether modern suspicion toward hierarchy in philosophy also shaped music. Andreyev responds by rejecting simplified historical narratives and emphasizing coexistence. Composers like Stravinsky, Shostakovich, and Arvo Pärt continued to write music grounded in tradition even during the height of musical modernism.The discussion also explains why universities and conservatories became central to composition after World War II. With traditional patronage gone, academic institutions offered stability. This shaped which musical styles were promoted, especially those that could be explained as technical or theoretical research.Both speakers address the idea that modern audiences have lost interest in serious art. Instead, they suggest that audiences have fragmented, not disappeared. Today, niche audiences can be large enough to sustain meaningful artistic work outside major institutions.Andreyev speaks about artistic authenticity, arguing that artists do not choose their style strategically. They write what they feel compelled to write. Tradition survives, he suggests, not by freezing forms in place, but by allowing creativity, tension, and renewal.This conversation offers a clear and accessible way to rethink modern music. It invites listeners, musicians and non-musicians alike, to question familiar myths and to see tradition and innovation as partners rather than enemies.

In this episode, I’m joined by philosopher and systems thinker Jordan Hall for a wide-ranging conversation about AI, music, and the future of human creativity.As artificial intelligence rapidly reshapes how music is made and distributed, a deeper question emerges: does it matter whether art is human-made? And if it does, how would we even know?Jordan proposes that we are entering a moment where “human” itself becomes a genre. In a culture increasingly saturated with synthetic media, authenticity may soon require verification rather than assumption. We explore what it would mean to certify music as human-made, why audiences may begin to seek out verified human art, and how trust breaks down when reality becomes difficult to discern.The conversation expands beyond music into larger philosophical territory—identity, meaning, technology, and the collapse of shared standards of truth online. We discuss why existing institutions and platforms are poorly equipped to address these challenges, and why purely technical solutions are insufficient without deeper human and moral foundations.This is not a conversation about resisting technology, but about placing it in proper order. Music, art, and creativity are not merely outputs; they are expressions of human agency, soul, and responsibility. When those foundations erode, culture follows.If you care about art, philosophy, and the future of human creativity in an AI-saturated world, this episode is for you.now write me a description for spotify

This is Part Two of my conversation with Dr. John Wykoff, composer and scholar. We continue a wide-ranging discussion on beauty, worship, church music, and the long-term consequences of losing aesthetic seriousness in the life of the church.Dr. Wykoff reflects on how churches came to measure success through efficiency, attendance, and growth, and why those metrics often displace formation, meaning, and truth. We explore why the familiar divide between traditional and contemporary worship fails to describe what is actually at stake, and how beauty does more than decorate belief. It shapes moral vision, memory, and responsibility over time.The conversation then turns toward composition and context. Dr. Wykoff speaks in depth about Out of This Darkness: A Normandy Cantata, his collaboration with poet Tony Silvestri and conductor Cameron LaBarr. We discuss text setting, musical form, acoustic space, and the importance of place and purpose in sacred music, even when that music is heard outside its original context.This episode will be of particular interest to church musicians, composers, conductors, clergy, and anyone concerned with sacred music, liturgy, theology, and culture. It is neither a polemic nor an exercise in nostalgia. It is a serious conversation about beauty, responsibility, and what is at risk when worship becomes detached from form and meaning.Dr. John Wykoff is an American composer whose choral and sacred works are widely performed and recorded. His music is published internationally and sung by leading ensembles in both concert and liturgical settings.

This week on The Pursuit of Beauty I sit down with Dr. Allen Hightower, Director of Choral Studies at the University of North Texas, for an honest and deeply pastoral conversation about choirs, faith, and the people who stand in front of us every week and sing.We talk very candidly about the real problems choir directors and church musicians face: how to work with aging voices and the infamous “old lady wobble,” why volunteers will forgive almost anything except being in a mediocre choir, and how to make hard musical decisions without wounding the people you serve. Allen opens up about the role of the conductor as a pastoral presence, not just a technician, and what it means to love your choir enough to tell them the truth and still keep their dignity intact.From there we move into bigger questions about sacred music, text, and belief. Can you perform Bach’s passions with integrity if you do not actually believe what the text proclaims? What does it mean to teach and conduct explicitly Christian works in a secular university setting? Allen shares how he navigates these tensions at UNT, and why wrestling seriously with the words we sing is essential if the music is going to do the spiritual and human work it was written to do.We also explore the thorny question of singing music from other religious traditions, from Holst’s Hymns from the Rig Veda to Sufi and Hindu devotional repertoire. How should Christian musicians think about programming this music, and what responsibility do we have given the embarrassment of riches in our own tradition’s choral literature?If you are a choir director, a church musician, a choral singer, or simply someone who cares about the intersection of beauty, truth, and the people in your choir loft, this conversation is for you.In this episode:How to lead volunteers who desperately want to be good, without bullying themWhat to do with aging voices and the “old lady wobble” in a church choirWhy singers will not forgive you if they or the choir are mediocreThe conductor as pastor, not just time beaterTeaching and performing explicitly Christian music in a secular universityCan you sing sacred texts with integrity if you do not believe themShould Christians sing music from other religious traditionsThe spiritual vocation of choral music in a disenchanted ageAllen Hightower, Matthew Wilkinson, choir, choral music, church music, sacred music, university choir, aging voices, old lady wobble, choral conducting, choral pedagogy, Bach, Rig Veda, faith and art, Christian music, UNT, Pursuit of Beauty podcast.

In this wide-ranging round table, architect Andrew Gould, icon carver and storyteller Jonathan Pageau, and host Matthew Wilkinson sit down over whiskey to wrestle with the future of beauty, sacred art, and architecture. We start with pirates and sea shanties, then quickly slide into Jackson Pollock, Rothko, oil slicks, marbled end-papers, and the problem of modern art hung in the wrong place. Andrew and Jonathan both argue that modernism is what happens when a long, rich tradition becomes fragmented and hyper-specialized. They compare Rothko’s color fields and Pollock’s rhythm to bark on a tree or the shimmering colors of an oil slick on water; there is a real beauty there, but it makes sense only when it is framed by more ordered and more meaningful.Andrew argues that the only real future of art lies in applied arts; things that serve a social purpose: church buildings, icons, interior decoration, good rooms, and good furniture. Oil paintings used to be “applied” in this way; they were made to hang in beautiful houses, to honor a patron, to decorate a dining room, to stand in as an “icon” of a king or bishop. Once painting is made only for galleries and commentary, it begins to eat itself. Jonathan pushes the conversation further and claims that liturgical art is the ultimate applied art. Icons, church architecture, and sacred music do not just distract you after work; they shape your life, your sense of honor, your memory, and your relationship to God and neighbor.From there, the three of you turn to cities, localism, and the built environment. Using Charleston as a case study, Andrew explains how historic districts, design review boards, and legal language originally intended to protect “historic styles” can be slowly re-interpreted to bless modernist glass boxes. You talk about shame, honor, and love; how a developer begins to think differently once he has to live in the town whose skyline he has altered, and how truly beautiful buildings quietly pressure people to dress differently, dine differently, and behave with greater dignity. Along the way, you touch on Greek islands that restrict ownership to locals, empty second homes in historic neighborhoods, and the way a truly beautiful room can transform a dinner party of ordinary college students into something solemn, joyful, and unforgettable.The discussion widens into the metaphysics of beauty and love. Drawing on the classical “transcendentals” of truth, goodness, and beauty, and a provocative list of “satanic transcendentals” such as fashion, sentimentality, and cruelty, you explore the difference between genuine love and mere infatuation. Fashion shocks; it trades in novelty and quickly becomes dated like shag carpet or yesterday’s architectural fad. Real beauty, by contrast, remains loveable across generations, which is why Baroque, Gothic, and classical buildings can be revived again and again, while certain “cutting edge” styles age badly within a decade. The same questions are applied to Orthodox iconography, mannerism, elongated figures, realism, Caravaggio and Rubens, and the danger of making saints look like glossy fashion models rather than members of the Kingdom.You hear concrete examples: Rublev’s Trinity as a bold yet deeply rooted innovation; Gothic portals where elongated saints grow up into the architecture like living columns; Father Silouan’s icons that quietly borrow from modern color theory and postmodern composition while remaining immediately venerable for a village grandmother; Russian attempts to integrate turn-of-the-century realism and Art Nouveau into church painting; and the tragic history of smoke-darkened Byzantine churches repeatedly repainted until the original brilliance vanished beneath cheap overpainting. We talk pirates and sea shanties, Pollock and Rothko, Rubens and Caravaggio, Charleston and Greek islands, Francis Bacon and Schiele, fashion and transcendence.

n this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty, Matthew sits down with legendary Charleston vocalist and storyteller Ann Caldwell to uncover the hidden world of spirituals, Gullah culture, and the music of the enslaved. From “Wade in the Water” to “Swing Low, Sweet Chariot,” Ann explains how these songs often carried coded messages of escape, using biblical language, river imagery, and “chariots” to talk about the Underground Railroad, freedom, and survival when plain speech was impossible.Ann shares her own story as a Gullah-rooted artist raised in the Lowcountry of South Carolina, and opens a window into praise houses, ring shouts, and call and response worship that shaped the spiritual life of enslaved communities. She talks about how the Gullah language developed, why rhythm and movement are inseparable from the songs, and how spirituals hold together profound faith, doubt, lament, and hope all at once.The conversation also wrestles with honest questions about race, ownership, and performance. Can white choirs sing spirituals with integrity. What does it mean for predominantly white ensembles to perform music that was born in the suffering of enslaved Africans. How do we honor the people who created these songs while allowing the music to live, grow, and be heard by new generations. Ann answers with the disarming mix of humor, directness, and pastoral wisdom that has made her beloved throughout Charleston.Along the way you will hear about Mahalia Jackson, jazz arrangements of spirituals, the Society for the Preservation of Spirituals, and the way these songs continue to echo through Black church music, jazz, gospel, and American culture today. If you care about church music, spirituals, Gullah history, race, theology, or the story of the American South, this conversation will change the way you hear these songs forever.

In this long-form conversation, I sit down with Father Amde Hamilton, co-founder of The Watts Prophets, pioneering spoken word artist, and Ethiopian Orthodox priest. He tells the story of how a Creole childhood that intentionally formed poets and priests prepared him for militant poetry, the civil rights era, and what would later be recognized as some of the earliest roots of rap and hip hop. Father Amde describes his work in Watts at the beginning of the Crips and Bloods, and how gang members became his first congregation. He explains what it meant to pastor young men in crisis, to bring them into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and to build a parish that held together Jamaicans, African Americans, and Ethiopians in one community, even when some later broke away. It is a rare inside view of gang intervention, Black spirituality, and Orthodox Christian ministry in Los Angeles. We trace his spiritual journey from militant poetry to Rastafarianism, his first trip to Jamaica, and his encounter with the Ethiopian World Federation. From there, he meets Abba Mandefro/Archbishop Yesehaq, is rebaptized, and is entrusted with a letter authorizing him to raise money and help start one of the first Ethiopian Orthodox parishes in Los Angeles. He shares how he studied across traditions, attending Armenian and Coptic churches while traveling back and forth to Jamaica to deepen his understanding of the ancient faith. The conversation moves into music history. Father Amde tells how he met Bob Marley, how he performed the poem “Wisdom and Knowledge” in Marley’s studio, and how that same poem was later delivered at Bob Marley’s funeral. He talks about their shared role in the youth work of the church, the plans they had to record together, and how those plans were cut short by Marley’s illness and death. These stories illuminate the spiritual side of Marley’s circle that most music documentaries never really address. He also recounts the extraordinary story of Nina Simone. When Simone was being held in a psychiatric ward and facing a long-term commitment, Father Amde fought his way in as clergy, advocated for her in the hearing, and eventually brought her into his own home, where she lived with his family for over two months before returning to work. He describes how she encountered the Ethiopian Orthodox tradition, how she was baptized, and how the beauty of the service and the presence of the Holy Spirit transformed her. From there we widen out to questions of rap, language, and culture. Father Amde reflects on the real meaning of “rap” as a regional, ever-evolving Black vernacular, the role of code language in slavery, and how mainstream music distorted something that began as a way of thinking and speaking. He talks about reaching skinheads, trailer-park audiences, and church people alike, about the ongoing struggle for racial reconciliation, and about seeing the image of Christ even in killers and gang-bangers. Finally, we address the present moment. Father Amde speaks about social engineering after the Watts riots, the rise of the internet, spiritual warfare, and what he sees as a global battle between good and evil that will involve much more suffering before it is resolved. For listeners interested in Orthodox Christianity, Black poetry, hip hop history, Bob Marley, Nina Simone, or the meeting point of art, faith, and race in America, this is a rare and deeply moving testimony from a man who has lived through it all.

Gratitude: I must express a sense real gratitude for David Bentley Hart coming onto the podcast. His books have indeed changed my life. The Atheist Delusions settled so many historical and theological questions that would constantly nag at my faith, and the Experience of God: Being, Consciousness, Bliss, that truly saved my faith. After reading that book, Atheism seemed so philosophically inept that it became patently absurd to doubt the existence of God as such. The Doors of the Sea was an incredible meditation upon the question of suffering, or theodicy, and his book on Christian history is both thorough and enticing. His essays have often challenged me, and I truly believe that “The Beauty of the Infinite” is one of the most important theological texts written for today. More so than almost any other, it tackles the questions raised by the postmodern philosophers, and excoriates them while nonetheless taking their arguments on their own terms. He demonstrates a complete mastery over the works of Nietzsche, Derrida, Deluxe, Guitarri, Levinas, etc. while being firmly grounded in an Orthodox patristic worldview, heavily influenced by Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus the Confessor. In this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty, theologian and philosopher David Bentley Hart joins Matthew Wilkinson to ask one of the oldest and most dangerous questions in the human story: what is beauty — and what happens when we lose it? What follows is not a polite academic exchange but a wide-ranging meditation on love, truth, art, and the presence of God in a disenchanted world.Hart begins by tracing the ancient idea that beauty, truth, and goodness are not separate virtues but one radiant reality — different ways of touching the same mystery. He explains that every genuine encounter with beauty is also an encounter with love and with being itself, and that the more deeply one pursues any of these transcendentals, the more they converge. Beauty, he argues, is not decoration on the surface of reality but the way reality discloses its own perfection.From there, the conversation turns to the modern world’s forgetfulness of beauty. Hart reflects on how contemporary art and culture often mistake novelty for vision, or transgression for depth. Drawing on examples from music and painting, he describes what happens when art loses its center in love — when creativity becomes an exercise in irony rather than an act of reverence. The result, he says, is not freedom but exhaustion: a civilization that can no longer recognize its own soul.Yet Hart is no pessimist. He insists that beauty still breaks through the ruins, that every authentic work of art — from Bach to Messiaen, from an icon to a poem — is an act of love made visible. Even when beauty wounds or overwhelms us, it does so because it reveals something truer than comfort: the longing for what we were made to behold. To experience beauty is to be called beyond oneself, toward the source of all being.At the heart of the interview lies Hart’s startling claim that “God is the beautiful, God is love — these all refer to the same simple reality.” In that single sentence, metaphysics becomes devotion. Beauty is not merely a sign of the divine; it is the divine made perceptible. Love and art, when they are genuine, participate in that same reality, bearing witness to the truth that creation itself is an act of aesthetic generosity.Matthew and Hart also explore the paradox of beauty and suffering — how the cross, the moment of supreme ugliness, becomes the revelation of perfect beauty. They ask whether our capacity to see the beautiful in what is broken might be the surest test of spiritual vision. Beauty, Hart suggests, does not flee from darkness; it transfigures it.The conversation closes with a vision both humbling and hopeful: a call to recover the contemplative gaze, to look at the world again as something loved into being.

“If I were the devil, I’d start by destroying beauty.”Composer Dr. John Wykoff joins Matthew Wilkinson on The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast for a rare, soul-stirring conversation about what beauty really is, why it matters, and how its loss is reshaping our civilization. In this wide-ranging dialogue, the two explore the deep relationship between aesthetics, ethics, and faith—and how recovering a sense of beauty could be the key to restoring both art and culture.Beauty, truth, and goodness have been intertwined for centuries, but in the modern world they’ve been pulled apart. Wykoff argues that when we relativize beauty, we eventually relativize morality itself. He explains why the decline of aesthetic judgment leads to moral confusion, how postmodernism flattened the hierarchy of values, and why artists and believers alike must learn again to “love what they create” rather than innovate for innovation’s sake. This is not an abstract discussion—it’s a diagnosis of our cultural sickness and a roadmap toward renewal.Drawing on the legacy of Alice Parker, Arvo Pärt, and Wendell Berry, Wykoff reveals how genuine art begins in love and humility. “Don’t arrange it if you don’t love it,” he says. “Start with love.” From his reflections on choral arranging and sacred song to his critique of technology’s impact on music, Wykoff calls artists to return to the human, the communal, and the incarnational. Beauty, he suggests, isn’t luxury—it’s spiritual warfare.Together, Wilkinson and Wykoff trace the collapse of beauty in modern art, the spiritual implications of digital sound, and the metaphysical truth hidden inside musical form. They discuss postmodernism, hierarchy, counterpoint, theology, philosophy of art, and the moral imagination—all through the lens of a Christian composer who writes fugues “before breakfast” to discipline his soul. What emerges is a vision of beauty as participation in divine order, where every note and brushstroke becomes an act of love.If you’ve ever felt that something sacred has gone missing from culture, this conversation will name what you’ve sensed. It’s a meditation on how art can heal the soul and how beauty leads us back to God.video at end courtesy of Missouri State University Chorale https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0_fk_s7eCsPerformed by the Missouri State University Men's Chorus at Juanita K. Hammons Hall for the Performing Arts in Springfield, MO on March 6, 2018.Missouri State University Men's Chorus - Cameron F. LaBarr, conductor“Gone Home”arr. John WykoffSoloist: Giovanni Hernandez, baritonePiano: Parker PayneVideo Production by Blake Richter Productions www.blakerichterproductions.comAudio Production by Darcy Stephens

In this in-depth conversation, Father Pimen Simon of the Old Rite Church of the Nativity of Christ in Erie, Pennsylvania, joins Matthew Wilkinson to discuss the history, theology, and music of the Old Believers within the Russian Orthodox tradition. He explains how the Old Rite preserved ancient liturgical forms, theology, and chant after Patriarch Nikon’s 17th-century reforms divided the Russian Church. (Pursuit of Beauty Podcast Episode 28)Fr. Pimen describes the rise of the priested and priestless Old Believers, their centuries of persecution, and the later process of reconciliation with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR). He recounts how his own community—once priestless—voted to reunite with ROCOR after the anathemas against the Old Rite were lifted in the 1970s at the urging of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, opening the way for a new generation of Old Ritualist parishes in America, Oregon, Alaska, and beyond.The discussion explores the difference between ritual and dogma, the meaning of liturgical continuity, and how Old Believers maintained their faith through exile and hardship. Fr. Pimen explains the structure of priestless worship, the role of the nastavnik, and how communities survived without the Eucharist for generations while preserving the fullness of prayer and devotion.A major focus is the Znamenny Chant, the ancient melodic system that the Old Rite preserved when the rest of the Russian Church turned toward Western polyphony. Fr. Pimen traces its origins to early Byzantine influence, showing how Old Believers kept this music alive in its pure, unharmonized form. He demonstrates how they have adapted the chant into English while remaining faithful to its medieval notation, stressing that chant should elevate the text rather than overwhelm it with musical display.The conversation also touches on wider themes—the balance between tradition and adaptation, the problem of “watered-down Orthodoxy,” the renewal of fasting and liturgical life, and the spiritual meaning of beauty and simplicity in worship.For musicians, historians, and anyone drawn to sacred art and living tradition, this episode offers an extraordinary window into one of Christianity’s most ancient surviving liturgical lineages.

What happened to beauty in architecture? In this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty, host Matthew Wilkinson sits down with Michael Diamant, founder of The Architectural Uprising and creator of the Facebook group New Traditional Architecture, to explore how we lost our connection to form, harmony, and meaning in the modern world. From the sterile glass towers of contemporary cities to the rediscovery of timeless design, Diamant reveals why the future of architecture depends on reviving classical principles.Diamant describes how The Architectural Uprising began as a movement across Scandinavia and Europe, uniting thousands who reject modernism’s soulless aesthetic in favor of beauty, truth, and goodness. He discusses the paradox of rebellion in a tradition-minded cause—how “uprising” means reclaiming the human spirit from ideology and bringing back craftsmanship, proportion, and the pursuit of the transcendent in the built environment.The conversation dives into the philosophical foundations of classical architecture: why beauty is objective, why proportion and symbolism matter, and how the classical tradition is not a single style but a living framework that evolves with culture. Diamant contrasts the humility of the classical architect—who serves the street, the city, and the community—with the ego-driven modernist who builds for novelty’s sake, creating monuments to self rather than to truth.Together they examine Frank Lloyd Wright, Art Nouveau, and Art Deco, exploring which modern movements successfully carried forward the classical spirit and which succumbed to utilitarianism. Diamant argues that early modernism once promised beauty and progress but was quickly replaced by what he calls “narcissistic modernism,” obsessed with innovation and ideology instead of human flourishing.As the discussion turns toward urban design, Diamant explains why skyscrapers alienate people from one another, how courtyard urbanism creates livable cities, and why Europe’s most beloved neighborhoods work so well. He contrasts the community-focused city planning of the 19th century with today’s sterile mega-projects and defends the idea that small, cohesive cities of around half a million people represent the optimal scale for human life.Matthew brings up the concept of the “Civium,” as proposed by Jordan Hall, to ask whether the internet era makes traditional cities obsolete. Diamant agrees that technology allows decentralization but insists that smaller, well-designed cities—built around beauty, family, and walkable neighborhoods—are the key to a sane civilization. Real progress, he says, means scaling down, not building higher.The two also explore the moral and spiritual dimensions of architecture. Diamant suggests that beauty is an act of love—a way of manifesting transcendence in stone. Together they discuss why societies that lose beauty also lose social cohesion, why middle-class families are essential to civic life, and how classical design naturally nurtures order, belonging, and gratitude.In the final moments, the conversation turns personal and cultural: why Charleston, SC represents one of the last living examples of urban beauty in America, and how taxation, zoning, and civic will could either revive or destroy that legacy. The result is a profound meditation on architecture, civilization, and what it means to build for eternity—a call to rediscover beauty as resistance in an age of concrete conformity.

In this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast, host Matthew Wilkinson sits down with thinker and entrepreneur Jordan Hall for a wide-ranging conversation about beauty, truth, goodness, and the challenges of modern civilization. Hall, co-founder of mp3.com and a key figure in the early internet streaming revolution, brings his unique background in technology, philosophy, and faith to a dialogue that touches everything from Christian theology to the future of urban planning. Together they explore how the transcendentals—beauty, goodness, and truth—intersect with our personal lives, our politics, and the spiritual destiny of culture.Early in the conversation, Wilkinson frames beauty not simply as an aesthetic category but as a divine name, drawing on the writings of Dionysius and Aquinas. Hall responds by questioning how truth-based discourse can limit our apprehension of the beautiful, and whether we must learn to “presence beauty” rather than merely analyze it. This sparks a deep reflection on how different art forms can all reveal aspects of the same transcendent essence, even while each medium brings forward different facets of reality.The dialogue turns to the difficult question of what makes something beautiful versus ugly. From abstract modern art to glass-and-concrete high-rises, Wilkinson and Hall wrestle with the criteria by which one can render judgment. Hall suggests that beauty itself is a faculty capable of defending its judgments without needing to be laundered through truth or goodness. This leads to an illuminating exploration of how propaganda often disguises itself by borrowing from truth and beauty.Politics and propaganda naturally enter the discussion, as both men consider how mass media and later the internet shape our understanding of truth and values. Hall provides a penetrating analysis of how twentieth-century propaganda techniques optimized for television are breaking down in the digital age, creating both dangers and opportunities. They compare Soviet and Western approaches to truth distortion, asking what happens when societies abandon shared standards of reality.From there, the conversation broadens into urbanism, architecture, and the fate of cities. Wilkinson references conversations with architects like Michael Diamant, while Hall argues provocatively that the urban itself is a category in decline. They discuss whether it is possible to have a truly beautiful city or whether the urban form is inherently tied to scarcity, opulence, and spiritual distortion. This thread leads naturally into reflections on cathedrals, new urbanism, and the tension between monumental architecture and the simplicity of monastic cells.Hall situates these questions within a larger framework: the transition from the third industrial revolution (the digital/communication age) to the fourth industrial revolution (decentralization, bespoke production, AI, and new community forms). He argues that society is moving from scarcity to abundance, though currently abundance is often distorted into mere opulence. The key challenge is learning how to inhabit abundance spiritually, not just materially.Abundance, in their view, will not look like endless skyscrapers or gilded palaces, but like the everyday beauty of love, family, and community—a grandmother rocking her grandchild, or the intimacy of shared worship. Wilkinson and Hall emphasize that the future of civilization may rest in our ability to unify beauty, goodness, and truth in the spirit of love, creating societies marked not by opulence but by genuine harmony.The theological dimension remains central throughout. From Eucharistic gratitude to the New Jerusalem, from Schmemann to David Bentley Hart, the discussion roots cultural renewal in the Christian vision of creation as fundamentally beautiful and good. For Hall, the New Jerusalem is not merely a future city but the living body of Christ, distributed wherever believers gather in the spirit of God.

Orthodox iconography, Rothko, sacred art, and the problem of propaganda in beauty—this second interview with Fr. Silouan Justiniano takes us deep into the intersection of faith, modern art, and the revival of Christian tradition. From Mark Rothko’s sublime color fields to the Byzantine legacy of iconography, Fr. Silouan explores how authentic art transcends ideology and points toward the divine, while kitsch and propaganda reduce beauty to mere sentimentality or political utility. For artists, theologians, and lovers of beauty alike, this conversation offers profound insight into the meaning of sacred creativity in a modern world. Fr. Silouan contrasts Rembrandt’s material richness with the chromatic delicacy of Persian and Indian miniatures, arguing that each tradition bears unique spiritual weight through the materials and techniques it employs. Beauty, he insists, cannot be reduced to mere skill or novelty; it is bound to the inner life of the artist and the contemplative power of form itself.The discussion moves to the avant-garde, as Fr. Silouan examines artists like Rothko, Pollock, and Kandinsky, showing how abstraction, when undertaken with depth and authenticity, opens paths to contemplation and the sublime. Rather than gimmickry or intellectual posturing, true abstraction leads the viewer into silence, mystery, and wonder—an experience he connects to the apophatic theology of the Christian East.Yet not all art elevates. Fr. Silouan critiques propaganda in both religious and secular art, distinguishing authentic sacred beauty from works that merely flatter ideology. Whether in political art, sentimental Christian films, or saccharine paintings, he warns against creations that refuse to confront the tragic and broken realities of human life, preferring a false prettiness over truth and transcendence.Even Orthodox iconography, he notes, can be misinterpreted as propaganda when viewed through a secular lens. But true iconography is not mere messaging—it is theology in color, an invitation to prayer and transformation. It exists not to manipulate but to reveal divine beauty, drawing the soul into contemplation rather than coercion.From here, the conversation turns to the revival of Orthodox and Coptic iconographic traditions, offering practical wisdom for artists seeking to recover or reimagine sacred forms. Fr. Silouan stresses the need to study the masters, imitate excellence, and only then begin to synthesize a personal voice rooted in reverence rather than rebellion or trend-seeking.Music and liturgy emerge as parallel concerns: can the innovations of modern music be baptized into the Orthodox tradition without compromising prayerful stillness or theological depth? Drawing on his monastery’s own experience with Byzantine chant in English, Fr. Silouan describes a living tradition capable of growth without surrendering its inner spirit.Innovation, he argues, should flow not from ego or novelty-seeking but from love—love for tradition and love for new influences encountered with discernment. When artists embody this love, their work naturally unites fidelity and freshness, producing art that is alive, prayerful, and enduring rather than clever, shallow, or fashionable.From Rothko’s abstraction to Puerto Rican church architecture, from Byzantine chant to the theology of beauty, this interview unfolds as a meditation on art’s highest calling: to reveal reality truthfully, beautifully, and reverently. Watch now to explore how sacred art can resist propaganda, transcend ideology, and lead the soul toward the mystery of God. Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more conversations on art, faith, and beauty.Fr. Silouan Justinano's sites: https://hieromonksilouan.org/aboutmy sites:Support me on Patreon: https://patreon.com/MatthewWilkinsonMusic?utm_medium=unknown&utm_source=join_link&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator&utm_content=copyLink💻 Website and blog: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

Will beauty really save the world—or have we misunderstood what that phrase truly means? In this in-depth interview, Fr. Silouan Justiniano joins The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast to tackle some of the most pressing questions about beauty, sublimity, iconography, and Christian art. From Dostoevsky’s famous line to the challenges of modern aesthetics, this conversation digs into what beauty actually is, how it relates to God, and why our understanding of sacred art often misses the mark. (The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast Episode 24) (This is part 1 of that interview)Fr. Silouan begins by exploring the classical model of beauty and how Western art history—from the Renaissance to the Romantic era—shaped both Orthodox and Catholic approaches to sacred images. He examines how Byzantine iconography was dismissed for centuries in favor of naturalistic and sentimental styles before experiencing a revival in the 20th century, and why this tension still affects the way churches think about art today.The discussion turns to the difference between East and West in Christian aesthetics. Fr. Silouan explains why Orthodox iconography tends to resist the overly emotional or sensuous, while Western art often embraces dramatic realism and pathos. Yet he also argues against simplistic East vs. West narratives, noting that sacred art has always existed on a spectrum of expression, shaped by theology, culture, and history.One highlight of the conversation is the deep dive into beauty and sublimity as philosophical categories. Drawing on thinkers like Pseudo-Dionysius, Aquinas, Kant, and Edmund Burke, Fr. Silouan unpacks how beauty is both terrifying and glorious—how it attracts and comforts, yet can also overwhelm with divine mystery. This tension, he suggests, is essential to understanding why beauty in Christian art cannot be reduced to mere prettiness or sentimentality. The conversation also touches on tradition and creativity—how the Church can preserve the integrity of sacred art without turning it into a lifeless museum piece. Fr. Silouan warns against both extremes: rigid traditionalism that fears innovation and reckless modernism that abandons theological grounding. Instead, he calls for a discerning synthesis that keeps sacred art rooted in theology, liturgy, and prayer, while allowing for authentic, Spirit-filled creativity.Fr. Silouan and Matthew Wilkinson explore how Western Rite liturgy, the Philokalia, and the Palamite tradition all shape Orthodox spirituality and aesthetics. They also discuss whether Western Christian piety—with its focus on Christ’s suffering and the drama of salvation—offers insights that Orthodox theology sometimes neglects, or whether it risks distorting the Church’s understanding of beauty and holiness.A recurring theme is the relationship between beauty, goodness, and truth—the transcendentals. Fr. Silouan draws on both classical and modern sources to argue that these realities are ultimately united in God, and that sacred art must reflect this unity rather than collapsing beauty into mere aesthetic pleasure or sentimentality. He even engages the Romantic movement, showing how artists like Caspar David Friedrich and William Blake point toward the divine even outside explicitly liturgical settings.Throughout the interview, viewers will encounter a rich tapestry of ideas: iconography and abstraction, tradition and modernity, aesthetics and theology, East and West. Fr. Silouan insists that beauty in Christian art is never neutral; it shapes our imagination, our worship, and even our souls. Sacred art, rightly understood, participates in God’s own beauty, drawing us toward Him in love and awe.Whether you are an artist, theologian, or simply someone seeking to understand the role of beauty in the Christian life, this conversation offers profound insights. By the end, you will see why the question “Will beauty save the world?” is far more complex—and more urgent—than it first appears.