RT Dialogue

Welcome to Episode 67 of the RT Dialogue Podcast. We are so thankful to have you joining us on this journey.This is a little bit of a different episode in that we had a master's level student (Dallas Theological Seminary) on the podcast. Justin Metz is currently training in Restoration Therapy, having already completed Level I with Dr. Terry Hargrave this last February, while also completing Relate Strong training at seminary with Dr. Gary Barnes. Justin is on staff at The Marriage Place in Frisco, TX, which is great, since we (Rhett) can meet up for coffee regularly to discuss all things RT. We really were inspired by the interventions that Justin is creating and already using in therapy work, and the way that he and his wife have been leading a Relate Strong group at their church. It's a lot of fun to see the way that varying interventions within the RT community are being built upon and used in different ways -- we see this in Justin as he was inspired by some interventions that Migum Gweon discussed on Episode 34 of this podcast, and Tanner Hargrove's intervention on Episode 26 of this podcast. We think you will especially love his practice of the Pain and Peace Cycle through use of rearview mirror hanging tags...brilliant. And it was insightful to hear how his experience as a ballroom dancer/instructor over the years has informed his couple's work. Enjoy the episode.Mentioned in the EpisodeCrucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes are High by Joseph Grenny, Kerry Patterson, Ron McMillan, Al Switzler, and Emily GregoryPsalm 40 by U2Athanasian CreedSue Johnson and Dancing the EFIT TangoRearview Mirror Hangers

Welcome to Episode 66 of the RT Dialogue.It was great to have Dr. Corynne Keirnes on this episode. Corynne is a graduate of Fuller Theological Seminary's MFT program, where she studied under Dr. Terry Hargrave. She is a Level II Certified Restoration Therapist, and Assistant Professor of Clinical Psychology at Vanguard University where she teaches classes and trains students. She and her husband Cameron are also the founders of New Horizon Integrative Therapy in the Denver, CO area. We love that there is another professor at a university teaching students about Restoration Therapy, and helping them practice the model. Her love for intensives is also really exciting, and something we dive into in this episode.Mentioned in the EpisodeWhole Brain Child: 12 Revolutionary Strategies to Nurture Your Child's Developing Mind by Dan Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson

Welcome to Episode 65 of the RT Dialogue.We were so excited that Brad Stulberg agreed to come on our podcast and discuss his latest book, New York Times Bestseller, The Way of Excellence: A Guide to True Greatness and Deep Satisfaction in a Chaotic World. Brad is the author of four books, and it was his 2017 book, Peak Performance that introduced me to his work (Rhett), and led me to start jotting down notes in the pages (i.e. pain cycle, peace cycle, 4 steps, etc.) of his work that reminded me a lot of the process of change in Restoration Therapy. In 2001 I fell in love with his book (Rhett) The Practice of Groundedness and was passing it out to executives that I was coaching as they were trying to lead organizations through COVID. Brad writes, speaks, coaches, and is on faculty at the University of Michigan's graduate faculty of Public Health. He is also the co-founder of the Growth Equation with Steve Magness. As I share in the podcast, Brad's superpower is that he reads all the important work, takes all of that information and knowledge, and knows how to synthesize and convey it in simple, easy to understand writing. It’s a gift. And every time I’ve read one of his books, I think to myself, “this is the book I wish I could have written."Brad's latest book covers a lot about the importance of mastering one's craft, and moving away from performative behavior towards deep connection and transformation -- all things that we feel are important about the work and practice of Restoration Therapy -- both as a model, and as a community. Thanks for coming on the podcast Brad, we really enjoyed our time with you on and off the air. Mentioned in the EpisodePeak Performance Passion Paradox The Practice of Groundedness Master of Change Richard RohrAgainst the MachineTony GywnnTarik SkubalHow Awe Helps with Anxiety

Welcome to Episode 64 of the RT Dialogue. On this episode we welcome RT Therapist Bryan Snead, who is Assistant Director of Counseling at Hill Country Bible Church. We have come to know Bryan over this last year connecting through RT Training and Texas RT Zoom monthly meetings. Bryan came to Restoration Therapy after journeying through a lot of other models, and on this episode he shares his love of what he has learned along the way, and his love of integrating neuroscience into this work. Bryan and the counseling center at Hill Country Bible Church have become instrumental as well in helping plan the April Texas Restoration Therapy Gathering -- so thankful for them.Enjoy the episode!Mentioned in the EpisodeBruce Ecker The 7 Emotion Circuits -- Jaak PankseppThe Way of Excellence: A Guide to True Greatness and Deep Satisfaction in a Chaotic World by Brad Stulberg

Welcome to Episode 63 of the RT Dialogue!On this episode we had the privilege of sitting down with the amazing couple of Jeff and Robin Reinke, who have been so influential in the Restoration Therapy community. They have quite the story -- both LMFT's -- Robin pursued licensure and the therapeutic route, whereas, Jeff went the route of ministry. Along the way they trained under Sue Johnson, the Gottmans, and eventually met Terry and Sharon Hargrave (and the rest is history as they say). Over the years they have poured into people and the community -- Robin in her role of therapist, and Jeff in ministry circle and the development of the Relationship Resource. It's hard to capture in words just how much of an impact they have had in the Restoration Therapy community (and beyond), and so we were so thankful to have them on. Mentioned in the EpisodeFree to Love: Transforming Pain into Peace (podcast)Relationship ResourceMen's SkillsWomen's SkillsThe Refuge Marriage IntensiveBadly Broken Deeply Loved: How to Find God's Healing, Wholeness & Peace by Jeff ReinkeRon and Nan Deal

Welcome to Episode 62 of the RT Dialogue Podcast -- we are so glad that you joined us. This is a really special episode as we got to sit down with two of our colleagues in the Restoration Therapy community and hear about their launching of the new Asher Graduate School of Counseling. Nancy Frigaard (Episode 45) and Michael Piciucco (Episode 11).This is a wild story with some really remarkable turn of events on their journey to opening up the Asher Graduate School. Check out their website for more information, but it looks like they will officially launch with a September cohort -- beginning with their Doctor of Ministry degree in Marriage and Family Studies (and soon to be other programs...). We are really excited for Nancy and Michael and all of the people involved in helping them launch the graduate school. And we are really excited for the RT community as it will be a great place for students to learn and practice the beautiful and life changing Restoration Therapy model. Mentioned in the EpisodeLead Like it Matters to God: Values-Driven Leadership in a Success-Driven World by Richard StearnsBorn to Be Wild by Steppenwolf (lyrics)

[PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO OF THIS EPISODE]Welcome to Episode 61 of the RT Dialogue podcast!We are really excited to have back Jennifer Smith and Lorenzo Cantoja, who you may remember from ⁠⁠⁠⁠Episode 45⁠⁠⁠⁠. In that episode we introduced you to the work of ⁠⁠⁠⁠Nancy Frigaard⁠⁠⁠⁠ and part of her team (Jennifer and Lorenzo) at ⁠⁠⁠⁠Freedom Family Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠. This is an ongoing intervention series:Episode 57 -- ⁠⁠Lenny the Lizard⁠⁠Episode 58 -- ⁠⁠Pete the Pain Eater⁠⁠Episode 59 -- ⁠Fireballs of Pain & the Truth Shield⁠Episode 60 -- Empty Chair Bear (ECB)Nancy is the author of ⁠⁠⁠⁠A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace⁠⁠⁠⁠, and in this episode (and the ones following) we look at some interventions she uses in the book (and one that isn't in there). Jennifer and Lorenzo have so much energy and enthusiasm for the work that they do, and so it was a lot of fun to have them on. In this episode they demonstrate the "Empty Chair Bear (ECB)" intervention, which can be found in ⁠⁠⁠⁠A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace⁠⁠⁠⁠. [adapted word list for use with children can be found in the episodes on ⁠⁠⁠⁠RT Dialogue Substack⁠⁠⁠⁠]

[PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO OF THIS EPISODE]Welcome to Episode 60 of the RT Dialogue podcast!We are really excited to have back Jennifer Smith and Lorenzo Cantoja, who you may remember from ⁠⁠⁠Episode 45⁠⁠⁠. In that episode we introduced you to the work of ⁠⁠⁠Nancy Frigaard⁠⁠⁠ and part of her team (Jennifer and Lorenzo) at ⁠⁠⁠Freedom Family Counseling⁠⁠⁠. This is an ongoing intervention series:Episode 57 -- ⁠Lenny the Lizard⁠Episode 58 -- ⁠Pete the Pain Eater⁠Episode 59 -- Fireballs of Pain & the Truth ShieldNancy is the author of ⁠⁠⁠A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace⁠⁠⁠, and in this episode (and the ones following) we look at some interventions she uses in the book (and one that isn't in there). Jennifer and Lorenzo have so much energy and enthusiasm for the work that they do, and so it was a lot of fun to have them on. In this episode they demonstrate the "Fireballs of Pain & the Truth Shield " intervention, which can be found in ⁠⁠⁠A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace⁠⁠⁠. [adapted word list for use with children can be found in the episodes on ⁠⁠⁠RT Dialogue Substack⁠⁠⁠]

[PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO OF THIS EPISODE]Welcome to Episode 59 of the RT Dialogue podcast!We are really excited to have back Jennifer Smith and Lorenzo Cantoja, who you may remember from ⁠⁠Episode 45⁠⁠. In that episode we introduced you to the work of ⁠⁠Nancy Frigaard⁠⁠ and part of her team (Jennifer and Lorenzo) at ⁠⁠Freedom Family Counseling⁠⁠. This is an ongoing intervention series:Episode 57 -- Lenny the LizardEpisode 58 -- Pete the Pain EaterNancy is the author of ⁠⁠A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace⁠⁠, and in this episode (and the ones following) we look at some interventions she uses in the book (and one that isn't in there). Jennifer and Lorenzo have so much energy and enthusiasm for the work that they do, and so it was a lot of fun to have them on. In this episode they demonstrate the "Fireballs of Pain & the Truth Shield " intervention, which can be found in ⁠⁠A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace⁠⁠. [adapted word list for use with children can be found in the episodes on ⁠⁠RT Dialogue Substack⁠⁠]

[PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO OF THIS EPISODE]Welcome to Episode 58 of the RT Dialogue podcast!We are really excited to have back Jennifer Smith and Lorenzo Cantoja, who you may remember from ⁠Episode 45⁠. In that episode we introduced you to the work of ⁠Nancy Frigaard⁠ and part of her team (Jennifer and Lorenzo) at ⁠Freedom Family Counseling⁠. This is an ongoing intervention series:Episode 57 -- Lenny the LizardNancy is the author of ⁠A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace⁠, and in this episode (and the ones following) we look at some interventions she uses in the book (and one that isn't in there). Jennifer and Lorenzo have so much energy and enthusiasm for the work that they do, and so it was a lot of fun to have them on. In this episode they demonstrate the "Pete the Pain Eater" intervention, which can be found in ⁠A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace⁠. [adapted word list for use with children can be found in the episodes on ⁠RT Dialogue Substack⁠]

[PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO OF THIS EPISODE]Welcome to Episode 57 of the RT Dialogue podcast!We are really excited to have back Jennifer Smith and Lorenzo Cantoja, who you may remember from Episode 45. In that episode we introduced you to the work of Nancy Frigaard and part of her team (Jennifer and Lorenzo) at Freedom Family Counseling. Nancy is the author of A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace, and in this episode (and the ones following) we look at some interventions she uses in the book (and one that isn't in there). Jennifer and Lorenzo have so much energy and enthusiasm for the work that they do, and so it was a lot of fun to have them on. In this episode they demonstrate the "Lenny the Lying Lizard" intervention, which can be found in A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace. [adapted word list for use with children can be found in the episodes on RT Dialogue Substack]

Welcome to Episode 56 of the RT Dialogue Podcast!We are so thankful that you listen to the podcast, and we know you will enjoy this episode. Today, we are excited to welcome Cori Page. Cori is a Level II Restoration Therapy therapist, and the founder and owner of Restoration Therapy of Columbus. Cori is also a Certified Sex Addiction Therapist and EMDR trained. She is passionate about a lot of topics, and we are continually impressed with how she uses RT not just in her therapy sessions, but in her work for advocating social change in her local and broader communities. Mentioned in the EpisodeRiverview International CenterYour Pain Has a Name: A Therapist's Invitation to Understanding to Understanding Your Story and Sorting Out Who You Are from What Hurts by RT therapist Monica DiCristinaJust Peacemaking: The New Paradigm for the Ethics of Peace and War by Glenn StassenExtraordinary Relationships: A New Way of Thinking About Human Interactions by Roberta GilbertDr. Jaclyn KirschHannah ChungIn the episode Cori also mentions her friendship with Fuller grad and therapist Rachel Engels and needs for the Minneapolis community: Neighbors Helping Neighbors in NeedHygiene Bank

Welcome to Episode 55 of the RT Dialogue! We are glad that you have joined us. If you are liking the podcast, please subscribe to it on Spotify, Apple or YouTube (or subscribe on all 3). And please recommend to any other people you think would find the content beneficial.In this latest episode, we discuss the 7 vital components of an intensive. We have both been trained in the intensive model, and spent a number of years on staff helping co-lead marriage intensives (The Hideaway Experience), as well as doing anxiety intensives. Rhett co-developed the Turning from Anxiety intensive model along with Terry and Sharon Hargrave and Tanner Hargrove. And Lance has written about the intensive model extensively in his doctoral dissertation, Arresting Anxiety: Experiential Training Model for Utilizing Intensive Restoration Therapy. In this episode we discuss the 7 vital components:focusing on one big goalsecluded environmenthospitalityexpert therapistsproviding toolsopportunities to practicepower of the group experience

Welcome to Episode 54 of the RT Dialogue Podcast. We appreciate all your support.This is a shorter episode where we reflect on the beginning of the year, and how we often approach new year's goals/new habits/etc. with clients. And we each share a couple of the big goals we have in mind this year.

Welcome to Episode 53 of the RT Dialogue.In this episode Lance and Rhett discuss events happening in the RT community (i.e. consult groups, trainings, gatherings, future summit, etc.), as well as discussing how all of us can bring our gifts into the community and look for areas to serve. Obviously we aren't aware of everything, so please let us know of RT things happening in your practice and community.Check out some of the events in the community at our RT Dialogue Substack. Highlighted Events/ActivitiesRestoration Therapy Texas Gathering (registration is open/limited spots)Mark your calendars for Restoration Therapy 2027 Summit in Malibu at Pepperdine (March 5-6, 2027)Mike Bishop's Delphi study on The Core Assumptions of Restoration Therapy (click on link to participate)Opportunities to Get InvolvedWrite articles/posts for RT Dialogue SubstackVolunteer to help with Summit 2027 (planning, "boots on the ground", etc.)Organize local RT gatheringsWrite a bio for the RT Dialogue SubstackEtc.

Welcome to Episode 52 of the RT Dialogue podcast.This was a real treat for us in getting to interview Dr. Tamara Powell, Assistant Professor of Teaching Practice at the University of Colorado at Denver. Rhett has known Tamara since 2002 when she started checking out the college ministry he was pastoring at Bel Air Church in Los Angeles. Over the years they have conversed on a lot of topics -- one of them being Restoration Therapy. And now Tamara teaches Restoration Therapy in Week 10 (Peacemaking) of her Communication and Healing class (check out her syllabus on our Substack). We cover a lot of ground in this conversation, highlighting her journey to RT, and why and how she uses it in her class. We knew this would be a great conversation and we look forward to more conversations with her on the podcast, and at future events. Mentioned in this EpisodeChuck DeGroat's book, Healing What's Within: Coming Home to Yourself--and to God--When You are Wounded, Weary and, Wandering St. Patrick's Breastplate Prayer (section that Tamara highlighted in the prayer)Christ with me,Christ before me,Christ behind me,Christ in me,Christ beneath me,Christ above me,Christ on my right,Christ on my left,Christ when I lie down,Christ when I sit down,Christ when I arise,Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,Christ in every eye that sees me,Christ in every ear that hears me.

Welcome to the New Year everyone! And a new season of the RT Dialogue with Lance Ahl and Rhett Smith. We are glad you have joined us. [FYI: There were some internet connection issues in this episode, but it was a great conversation.]We kick off the new season with Restoration Therapist Hatty Lee. Hatty is the founder of Oak and Stone Therapy which has practices in Pasadena and Los Angeles. She is also the co-author of the beautiful Indwell Guide, which is an "8-step mental health resource designed to empower individuals through visual storytelling, education, and practical tools."In this episode we spend time learning from Hatty where RT Therapists often get stuck in the therapeutic process. Here wide ranging experience as a therapist, supervisor, practice owner, gives her unique insight into some of the ways therapists get stuck in the practice of RT. We also end the episode with some brief thoughts on why she loves doing intensives so much.

Welcome to Episode 50 of the RT Dialogue Podcast!We want to give a huge THANK YOU to all of you who have listened this year.We launched this podcast on February 16, 2025 with the hopes of connecting the RT community. We wanted to bring on different people within the community who were practicing RT, as well as dive deeper into the model. It's been a fun adventure for us, and we are eager to start into Season 2 in January 2026.We spent some time in this last episode going over some fun numbers from our podcast this year, and talking about our hopes for Season 2, as well as our dreams for the RT community as we move into the new year. So a big THANK YOU again for tuning in!Here are some fun numbers for our small podcast (as of Dec. 20, 2025):Spotify/Apple4,606 downloads of the podcast740 listening hours89 followers303 different unique listeners52.3% female; 43% male; 4.7% not identified 8 countries listeningEpisode 4 with Terry and Sharon most listened to episode of the year. Top 10% podcast globally for most viewed videos (if you didn't know already -- you can view the video episode on Spotify as well)Please subscribe to our Spotify or Apple YouTube1,700 views374.7 viewing hours51 subscribersEpisode 7 with Ron Deal was most viewed episode of the year. Please subscribe to our YouTubeSubstack19,000 views156 subscribers22 different states are subscribed4 countries subscribed (US, Austria, Australia, Mexico)Episode 18 with Bisola Adediji was BY FAR the most viewed and shared episode of the year....1,238 different emails opened her episode!Please subscribe to our Substack -- which also now has an updated calendar page and other ways to get involved. When we started this podcast we weren't sure who would listen. But we were going to do it anyways, whether anyone listened or not, because we enjoy chatting with each other, with those in the RT community -- and we just love chatting about RT. But it's awesome that between all our channels, they were viewed over 25,000 times in the last 10 months. So THANK YOU.See you in 2026.Lance, Rhett and RO

Welcome to Episode 49 of the RT Dialogue. As we near the end of the year we wanted to take an episode to reflect on a few of the books that we find ourselves referencing a lot in therapy over the years. Honestly, we could have spent hours on this episode and covered dozens and dozens of books, over so many topics. So maybe in future podcasts we will pause and talk about other books that are important to our work. We also realize as we got more into the conversation that our book selection doesn't reflect a very wide diversity of authors in terms of gender, ethnicity, etc. -- just something we wanted to acknowledge. I know we have been reading widely in our personal lives, but it's not always reflected in the books that we find ourselves referencing consistently.What are the 3-5 books that you find yourself continually referencing in therapy with clients?P.S. On this latest episode I totally botched a reference in Parker Palmer's book Let Your Life Speak, where he talks about his depression. Here is the actual quote:“After hours of careful listening, my therapist offered an image that helped me eventually reclaim my life. ‘You seem to look upon depression as the hand of an enemy trying to crush you,’ he said. ‘Do you think you could see it instead as the hand of a friend, pressing you down to the ground on which it is safe to stand?’Amid the assaults I was suffering, the suggestion that depression was my friend seemed impossibly romantic, even insulting. But something in me knew that down, down to the ground, was the direction of wholeness, thus allowing that image to begin its slow work of healing me.I started to understand that I had been living an ungrounded life, living at an altitude that was inherently unsafe. The problem with living at high altitude is simple: when we slip, as we always do, we have a long, long way to fall, and the landing may well kill us. The grace of being pressed down to the ground is also simple: when we slip and fall, it is usually not fatal, and we can get back up.” (pp. 66)Books Mentioned in the EpisodeIn the Name of Jesus: Reflections on Christian Leadership by Henri NouwenLet Your Life Speak: Listening for the Voice of Vocation by Parker PalmerThe Silence of Adam: Becoming Men in a World of Chaos by Larry CrabbA Grief Observed by C. S. LewisBreathing Under Water: Spirituality and the Twelve Steps by Richard RohrAbba's Child: The Cry of the Heart for Intimate Belonging by Brennan ManningMan's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. FranklLiving the Spiritually Balanced Life: Acquiring the Virtues You Admire in Others by Ray AndersonDaring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent and Lead by Brene BrownFeminist Prayers for My Daughter: Powerful Petitions for Every Stage of Life by Shannon K. EvansAgainst the Machine: On the Unmaking of Humanity by Paul KingsnorthThe Salt Stones: The Seasons of a Shepherd's Life by Helen WhybrowThe Way of Excellence: A Guide to True Greatness and Deep Satisfaction in a Chaotic World by Brad StulbergZen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquire into Values by Robert PirsigStrong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, The Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit by Brene BrownWhy We Love Baseball: A History in 50 Moments by Joe Posnanski

Welcome to Episode 48 of the RT Dialogue.In this episode we had the privilege of talking with Dr. Erik Salwen who is a Level II RT Therapist and who is also Level I RT Trainer. He is the Associate Professor of Counseling Ministries at Dallas Theological Seminary and is in practice at College Station Christian Counseling in College Station, TX. Erik is passionate about the "theology of RT" and we discussed at length the role of integration in the Restoration Therapy model -- as well as starting a conversation around the topic of forgiveness (we will have to pick back up on this rich conversation next year on the podcast)Mentioned in the EpisodeDr. Scott Horrell John PiperDeborah van Deusen HunsingerTheology and Pastoral Counseling: A New Interdisciplinary Approach by Deborah van Deusen HunsingerChrist Plays in Ten Thousand Places: A Conversation in Spiritual Theology by Eugene PetersonOhana Fest