The Trial of Lucy Letby

In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss the closing statements of the families of the babies and the senior executives of the Countess of Chester Hospital. We’ve got details of the executives’ application to pause the inquiry amid claims that ‘new’ evidence could render Lucy Letby’s convictions unsafe.And the response of the families, who argue it is simply a cynical ploy by a manipulative serial killer to control the narrative and an attempt by senior managers to avoid criticism.We also bring you the pleas of the mums and dads in this case, who say the NHS must make changes and formally regulate senior executives to stop a similar tragedy ever happening again. Follow us on instagram @thetrialpodEmail us thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukWhatsapp us +447796657512 (start your message with ‘Trial’) Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz HullEditor: Chelsey MooreCreative Director: Caroline CheethamProduction Manager: Vittoria Cecchini A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular.This episode contains some details that listeners could find distressing Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode of the Trial Update, Caroline and Liz have the assurance the Heath Secretary Wes Streeting has given to the inquiry that what happened at the Countess of Chester Hospital should never happen anywhere else. The inquiry was also told that the Department for Health were “deeply troubled” by the way the doctors were treated by senior managers. And the hospital has now accepted for the first time that Lucy Letby should have been suspended in October 2015, before she attacked seven more babies. Plus we’ve got the details of two applications to pause the Thirlwall inquiry - one from Lucy Letby herself, and one from the hospital’s senior managers. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this emergency episode Caroline and Liz have the breaking news that detectives are now investigating certain members of staff who worked at the hospital at the time Lucy Letby was killing and harming babies. Cheshire Police have confirmed their investigation into Corporate Manslaughter, which focused on the hospital, has now been upgraded to Gross Negligence Manslaughter. That means they are now investigating individual members of staff to see whether what they did – or didn’t do - amounted to a crime.  Follow us on instagram @thetrialpodEmail us thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukWhatsapp us +447796657512 (start your message with ‘Trial’) Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz HullEditor: Chelsey MooreCreative Director: Caroline Cheetham A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular.This episode contains some details that listeners could find distressing Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss this week’s press conference by Lucy Letby’s defence team. They go over the findings of the expert panel, who now say she isn't guilty of any murders, and compare it to the evidence scrutinised at her two trials.They also speak to Lord Ken Macdonald KC, the former Director of Public Prosecutions, who gives his take on the Criminal Cases Review Commission and Lucy Letby’s chances of a new appeal. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Caroline and Liz run through the evidence of the final week of witnesses, including that of Jane Tomkinson, the current chief executive of the Countess of Chester Hospital.She tells the inquiry that things have significantly changed in the nine years since Lucy Letby murdered babies on the neo-natal unit and that senior managers are more open and better at listening to staff than before.We also hear from an expert statistician and Cambridge academic Sir Professor David Spiegelhalter, who explains that while the 2015 spike in deaths was unusual for the Countess, it wasn’t particularly rare from a national perspective and other units had similar neo-natal mortality rates.Caroline and Liz also talk to journalist David James Smith about Lucy Letby’s chances of securing a new appeal, and his time as a commissioner on the Criminal Cases Review Commission.Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz HullEditor: Chelsey MooreCreative Director: Caroline CheethamProduction Manager: Vittoria Cecchini A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Caroline and Liz are back with the first week of evidence from the Inquiry of the New Year. They explain the testimony of MP Jeremy Hunt, who was Health Secretary, when Lucy Letby murdered and harmed babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital, in 2015 and 2016.He apologised to the families and said he took ultimate responsibility for a failure to implement recommendations from previous NHS inquiries, which may have helped catch Lucy Letby sooner.He talks about how it took 20 years to install independent medical examiners in hospitals and said that if one had been in post when Lucy Letby was working it might have made a difference.Caroline and Liz also talk to barrister Tim Owen about the extraordinary press conference held by Lucy Letby’s new barrister shortly before Christmas and what this means for her attempts to overturn her convictions.And they also discuss a speech made by MP David Davis in the House of Commons this week when he used Parliamentary privilege to call for a retrial.Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz HullEditor: Chelsey RanoreGuest: Tim Owen, Double Jeopardy - The Law and Politics PodcastCreative Director: Caroline CheethamProduction Manager: Vittoria Cecchini A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this final episode before The Inquiry takes a break for Christmas, Caroline and Liz explain the evidence of Nicholas Rheinberg, the Senior Coroner for Cheshire. He said he was ‘horribly disappointed’ at being kept in the dark about the consultants’ concerns about Lucy Letby and horrified that the paediatricians allowed him to carry out an inquest into the death of Baby A without telling him the real reason for how they believed the baby boy died.We also hear from Sir Rob Behrens, the former Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman. He gave evidence on the culture of the NHS and described why scandals involving patient deaths keep occurring. He said there is a small pool of individuals that run NHS hospitals who are like ‘The Magic Circle.’ He said these individuals need to be subject to regulation, like doctors and nurses, to stop the ‘revolving door’ of failing bosses moving from hospital to hospital without any detriment to their careers. Sir Rob also criticised the public inquiry system itself and called for the Government to set up a new body to make sure their reports and recommendations are not simply shelved, but acted upon in the future.Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz HullEditor: Jamie EastCreative Director: Caroline CheethamProduction Manager: Vittoria Cecchini A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this week’s episode, Caroline and Liz bring the evidence of Sir Duncan Nichol, the hospital’s board chairman. He was also the head of the NHS when nurse Beverley Allitt murdered children at a hospital in Grantham. He tells the inquiry it was a ‘serious failure’ by the Countess of Chester Hospital not to tell the families of the babies harmed what was going on and he apologised for not keeping their children safe.We also hear how the coroner was also kept in the dark about the spike in deaths and that a nurse was suspected of killing babies. Assistant Coroner Alan Moore said senior managers kept back vital information which would have prompted the police to be called.And we hear from other non-executive board directors who describe how tension and conflict between the paediatricians and senior managers affected their response to the crisis.Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz HullEditor: Chelsey MooreCreative Director: Caroline CheethamProduction Manager: Vittoria CecchiniA Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Caroline and Liz have another update from the Thirlwall Inquiry where the Medical Director Ian Harvey was accused of “fobbing off” the mother of one of the babies who was killed by Lucy Letby. He also denied withholding evidence from the coroner. But he admitted not commissioning a forensic review of the deaths which may have uncovered a crime sooner was a missed opportunity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In today’s episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence for the first time from the two most senior managers at the Countess of Chester Hospital. Ian Harvey and Tony Chambers have never spoken before but they appeared before Lady Justice Thirlwall. They apologised to the families of the babies who were killed and harmed by Lucy Letby for not communicating with the parents properly and they were challenged on why they were slow to act and slow to accept what the consultants were telling them. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence from some of the senior managers from the Countess of Chester Hospital. It's the first time we've heard from them, and all accepted mistakes had been made in the way the concerns about Lucy Letby had been dealt with.  But Tony Chambers, the Chief Executive, was reluctant to accept any personal failings, and Alison Kelly, the Director of Nursing, blamed others for the fact she was slow to respond to an email about a spike in baby deaths and a link to Lucy Letby. The Director of People, Sue Hodkinson said she should never have told Lucy Letby she would soon be back on the ward. We also heard that Lucy Letby's father, John, wanted the consultants to be sacked. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A big week at the Thirlwall Inquiry as the managers get their chance to speak and to answer the criticisms that they were too slow to act to stop Lucy Letby. First up is Alison Kelly, The Director of Nursing. We’ll be bringing you extra episodes all week this week to reflect what’s happening here in Liverpool.Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz HullEditor: Chelsey MooreCreative Director: Caroline CheethamProduction Manager: Vittoria Cecchini A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence of former Detective Chief Superintendent Nigel Wenham, the police officer who was instrumental in launching the police investigation into Lucy Letby’s crimes.They also hear from one of the key doctors in the case - Dr Stephen Brearey - the lead consultant on the neo-natal unit. He apologised to the families of the babies murdered and harmed by Lucy Letby, saying he tried to do his best to protect their children but admitted his best was not good enough.He said the pressures of his day job in the NHS meant he was too busy to properly review cases of babies who collapsed and died and he failed to spot she was harming patients sooner.He also revealed that he now believes Lucy Letby had killed other children on his unit for some time before she killed Baby A - the first of seven babies she was convicted of murdering - in June 2015. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this bonus update the Head of the Neo-Natal Unit Dr Stephen Brearey told parents he was sorry his actions had not been enough to stop their children being harmed and killed. He also accused Lucy Letby of harming babies BEFORE she killed Baby A in June 2015. And he admitted he and others missed opportunities which could have stopped her.Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz HullEditor: Chelsey MooreCreative Director: Caroline CheethamProduction Manager: Vittoria Cecchini A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In the first episode of The Trial Update Caroline and Liz have a snapshot of the evidence of Dr Ravi Jayaram as he appeared before the Thirlwall inquiry. He said sorry, and said he wishes now he'd been stronger and braver and spoken up sooner about Lucy Letby. He also said senior managers would not take the consultants' concerns seriously and he now reflected it had been like being in an abusive relationship. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence from Dr Ravi Jayaram. He accepted that he should have done more sooner to stop Lucy Letby from harming babies. He said he should have been braver and more courageous in speaking up, but he said his concerns initially seemed "outlandish".He also told the Thirlwall Inquiry that after Lucy Letby was eventually moved off the ward she told him she'd be back "whether he liked it or not."And he said the recommendations from the inquiry into Beverley Allitt's crimes should be embedded in all medical safeguarding training.Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz HullEditor: Chelsey MooreCreative Director: Caroline CheethamProduction Manager: Vittoria Cecchini A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss the evidence of the union rep who became close friends with Lucy Letby. Hayley Griffiths exchanged jokey and inappropriate texts with her about ‘tips’ on how to get away with murder and told her they would be ‘friends forever.’They also hear evidence about Lucy Letby’s employment grievance and how rumours were flying around the hospital that a consultant made a pass at her and that she was the victim of a witch hunt.And they bring you a statement from her parents who said they were left shocked and heartbroken by the sickening allegations made against their daughter.Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz HullEditor: Chelsey MooreCreative Director: Caroline Cheetham A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Thirlwall Inquiry is having a week off so it's a good time for Caroline and Liz to chat to lawyer and expert Elkan Ambrahamson about what difference, if any, public inquires really make in changing things for the future.They also have more details about Lucy Letby's latest appeal which was thrown out last week by three judges - signalling the end of the road for her, unless her lawyer can find new evidence to put before the Criminal Cases Review Commission. Welcome to Episode 11: Will it make a Difference? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode we hear from the nursing manager who got ‘too close’ to Lucy Letby, sending her chummy messages telling her to ‘hang on in there, girl,’ after police were called in. Karen Rees said she felt ‘bullied’ by a consultant when he called her at home to demand Lucy Letby wasremoved from the ward, after she murdered two triplet brothers in quick succession. He claimed to have a ‘drawer of doom’ about Lucy Letby but senior nurses believed she was being made a scapegoat for poor medical care. Mrs Rees also revealed she later begged hospital bosses to call in the police so they could get some answers. We also hear from the lead risk midwife, Annemarie Lawrence, who said relationships between the doctors and the nurses on theneo-natal unit had broken down by the time she started work at the hospital. She also said Lucy Letby’s redeployment into the Risk and Patient Safety Department was inappropriate because it meant she could look at patient’s notes and critical reports which linked her to the babies’ deaths. Welcome to Episode 10: Drawer of DoomPresenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz HullEditor: Chelsey MooreCreative Director: Caroline CheethamExecutive Producer: Lucy Vallance A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Caroline and Liz are back with the latest from The Thirlwall Inquiry which is continuing to investigate how Lucy Letby was able to commit murder at the Countess of Chester Hospital. In this episode we learn more about Letby’s character and behaviour from her fellow nurses working closely with her on the neonatal unit. We are told she initially failed her final year placement as her mentor felt she lacked the requisite professionalism and empathy for a children’s nursing role. We then hear from the manager of the neonatal unit for the first time. Eirian Powell supported Lucy Letby, even when she had been moved off frontline nursing because of the doctors’ concerns. She said she couldn’t believe she had done anything wrong.We are also given examples of some of the serious mistakes Letby made that were flagged by her colleagues and how eventually enough evidence amassed that she was involved in the collapse of multiple babies that her position on the unit became ‘untenable’. Welcome to Episode 9: The Favourite Follow us on instagram @thetrialpodEmail us thetrial@mailmetromedia.co.ukWhatsapp us +447796657512 (start your message with ‘Trial’) Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz HullVoice Actors: Jenna Wrigley and Lucy RyanEditor: Buddy PeaceCreative Director: Caroline CheethamExecutive Producer: Lucy Vallance A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesFollow us at @thetrialpodEmail us at info@thecrimedesk.comLeave a comment on Spotify or send us a voice note on WhatsApp - +447796657512 (start your message with 'Trial')A Daily Mail Production.Seriously Popular.Click here to sign up to The Crime Desk's weekly newsletter. It's free and packed with exclusive interviews, expert insight, and gripping deep dive investigations from across the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.