The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped

Jax and I begin with remembering the physicality of our bodies, and how African cultures intimately know the strength and magnificence of the body. We talk about the dark night as a going down into the depths and coming back out again; as a reconnection with our ancestral lines, and “the many gifts” that come down to us from our ancestors; and as a continual spiral that we eventually learn to dance around. Jax describes how she was brought to her knees while tending to her daughter, and how they began to listen to the voices that were “talking to us on so many levels.” Amongst many other things, we also talk about the howl of the untamed within and remembering the animal that we are; the dark night being “an experience of the wrestling with what’s trying to speak to you,” and dancing with our ancestors, both metaphorically and literally. We explore the mourning that happens during the dark night; the possibilities of bringing the dark night out from behind closed doors and into community with others; and discovering that we can be with more than one truth simultaneously. And finally, Jax shares a beautiful invocation that came to her recently. Jax Bull is an interfaith minister, counsellor, breathworker, and founder of The Serenity Practice. She creates collective spaces in which people can feel real again, and where it’s safe to unravel. Once a month, she opens her house in Dorset, UK for women to bring whatever they’re carrying, and to be held in community. She also offers two free online community spaces, Community Breath Alchemy and ADHD Breathwork. Connect with JaxFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works with many people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers both a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaMentionsJax mentions Ancestral Connections. She also cites the poem Please Call Me By My True Names, by Thich Nhat Hanh, and the song Coming Around Again, by Carly Simon. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please rate, subscribe, and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Onyi’s dark night began when cracks appeared after she was let go from her third job in a row. She could no longer ignore the incongruence between her self-concept and reality, and “a lot of the foundation of who I thought I was” began to shatter. Initially, her defensive armour fought back, but “once the floodgates opened,” her ego began to dissolve. Gradually, and with the support of a therapist, she went from being adrift at sea on a raft to building and learning how to sail a sturdy, capacious ship.Amongst many other things, we talk about the importance of radical honesty and the desire to be rooted in the truth; the sheer exhaustion that comes with having to keep the floodgates closed; and coming down into a reality deeper than rigid ideas of good and bad. We touch on understanding our trauma strategies and how they were born out of real moments; how therapy and spirituality can be used to bolster the self-concept; and how the false ego needs to be mourned. We also discuss discovering more stable foundations on which to rest ourselves; taking baby steps to grow a new self; and how our initial realisations have deepened over time.Onyi Ijeh is the host of Interesting People of Earth, a digital campfire for meaningful dialogue about life and purpose. Onyi has a background in International Development and Communications but has recently had to pivot her career due to political developments in the U.S. Onyi has taken this time to pursue her passion for storytelling and person advocacy via her tik tok @wontonamera and her podcast @interestingpplofearth.Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works with many people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers both a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaMentionsOnyi mentions Plato’s Allegory of the Cave. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please rate, subscribe, and share.You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

For many years, Malcolm avoided both his own suffering and the suffering of the world in every way he could. Taking himself to be “a favoured son of God,” he was definitely, as he says, “on the path to being a spiritual bypasser and magical thinker.” Then in 2014, his world was completely flipped when his oldest daughter took her own life, and he had to face everything he’d been oblivious to, including his own pain and the reality of his relationships. A few years later, a second dark night was precipitated by a heart attack. On the way to the hospital, he had a moment of sublime peace which left a lasting impression. Amongst many other things, Malcolm and I talk about disillusionment and the end of naivety; the nature of true surrender and daring to jump off the edge; and how he feels “like a novice now, rather than someone on the verge of enlightenment.” We touch into the belief in being special; following the deep intelligence of the unfolding; no longer looking for external ways to assuage our loneliness; and going through nihilistic phases. We also discuss the importance of discernment; the evolution of being; and finding wisdom in unexpected places. Malcolm Stern is an individual and group psychotherapist, and the co-founder of Alternatives in London. He runs groups and teaches courses, and offers executive coaching and organisational training programmes. His approach involves finding where the heart is and helping individuals access their truth. He is also the author (with Ben Craib) of Slay Your Dragons with Compassion and (with Su Bristow) Falling in Love, Staying in Love, and he is the host of the Slay Your Dragons with Compassion podcast. Connect with Malcolm Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works with many people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers both a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona Mentions Malcolm mentions Pachelbel's Canon in D major. He also mentions Victor Frankl, the author of Man’s Search for Meaning; the Sufi teachers Hazrat Inayat Khan and Pir Vilayat Khan; the I Ching; and Dina Glouberman. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please rate, subscribe, and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Julian and I “begin before the beginning” and discuss the Christian origins of the phrase dark night of the soul. I remind him of an email he sent to me at the start of my dark night; we talk about the downward trajectory of the descent into soul, body, history, and pain, and how it is the opposite of the idea of spiritual ascent; and we describe it as an ongoing shedding of armour, ideas, expectations, shoulds, and more.Amongst many other things, we also touch on no longer being “on the old map with the old co-ordinates”; dissolution, and the collapse of the old structures; the problem with dismissing our own cultural roots; and Jesus as an archetypal story of divine embodiment. We share our experiences of serious wobbles and severe anxiety; the sudden dawning of what has previously been invisible; cleaving to suffering and the tendency to fall back; and the importance of not getting washed out of the boat. We acknowledge how tough it is to be in the dark night; we mention healing, and what that might mean in this context; and we talk about how love, sanity, and capacity slowly begin to seep in and imbue us.Julian Carlyon is the author of two books: One Earth, Three Worlds: The Pattern that Connects Dreams, Synchronicity, Physics, Homeopathy, Spirituality and Somatics, and Understanding Homeopathy, Homeopathic Understanding: Foundations of Homeopathic Philosophy and Practice. Since his early twenties, he has explored an eclectic range of disciplines, including homeopathy, transpersonal psychology, alchemy, and movement practice. He sees clients from around the world, lives in the UK, and is a father and grandfather.Connect with JulianFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaMentionsJulian mentions the Diamond Approach, founded by A. H. Almaas.Julian paraphrases this quote from C. G. Jung: “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.You're welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Following on from our previous conversation, Suzette and I explore the sacred wildness of life, and what it means to rediscover, re-member, and honour the sacred wild self. We talk about being in kinship with the natural world as children, and how the sacred wild self rarely conforms to societal expectations; we touch on the sense of the ancient that infuses the sacred wildness; and we discuss how the dark night is the start of the reclamation of who we are at our core. Amongst other things, we also talk about the heart space that continues to open as we remember the sacred wildness; how we can enter this space via the portals of everyday experience; and the sense of perception that "can tap us into a larger, deeper knowing." We explore how our connection to with the sacred wildness can be nurtured by getting quiet and listening; by being in nature, in whatever form nature is accessible to us; and by being with others who honour the truth of who we are and what we're experiencing in the moment. Finally, we touch on the longing to return to the sacred wildness, and its calling to us, because it wants us back. Suzette Winona Summers has been on a conscious healing and awakening path for most of her life. She is a sacred circle weaver, shamanic practitioner, Ecstatic Dance Journey Facilitator, and cosmic midwife/coach who works with both individuals and communities. She offers shamanic healing sessions, craniosacral sessions, and intuitive massage, and she also weaves sacred circles and ceremonies, offering both ecstatic dance journeys and heart-centred talking circles. She lives in Louisville, Kentucky. Connect with SuzetteFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with FionaMentionsSuzette mentions Toko-pa Turner's books, Belonging: Remembering Ourselves Home and The Dreaming Way: Courting the Wisdom of Dreams. She also mentions Michael Meade, and cites Anais Nin's quote, "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom."If you've enjoyed this episode, please rate, subscribe, and share. Thank you!You're welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Suzette has had many dark nights of the soul, the most recent of which began when her oldest daughter passed away seven years ago. Her heart cracked open as she was plunged into a profound initiation, a kind of natural vision quest; from that point on, she has been “walking in multiple worlds.”Amongst many things, we talk about being humans subject to the laws of nature, rather than machines that are constantly expected to be or do more; the unfurling that happens as we move towards what we’ve previously tried to stay away from; and the aloneness and seclusion of the dark night. We discuss the overlap between grief and the dark night; how visceral both experiences are, and their similarities to childbirth; and being in the place of “nope” where it is impossible to imagine how we will get through the terrain we’re in. We acknowledge the times of inaction or waiting that happen in the dark night, and how hard it can be to change our behaviour. We also touch into stepping back into our bodies; rediscovering our wild, untamed, undomesticated selves; how little lights can unexpectedly guide us; and embracing the fullness and miraculousness of ourselves.Suzette Winona Summers has been on a conscious healing and awakening path for most of her life. She is a sacred circle weaver, shamanic practitioner, Ecstatic Dance Journey Facilitator, and cosmic midwife/coach who works with both individuals and communities. She offers shamanic healing sessions, craniosacral sessions, and intuitive massage, and she also weaves sacred ceremonies, offering both ecstatic dance journeys and heart-centred talking circles. She lives in Louisville, Kentucky.Connect with SuzetteFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaIf you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Before his dark night began, Bart was a highly intellectual physician with no interest whatsoever in spirituality. He had, as he says, “worked for a long time cutting off bodily feelings.” Then an injury ended his ability to function, leaving him depressed and unable to work. When he saw an eight-foot angel fish at the end of his bed, and began to dream vividly, he was prompted to venture into the imaginal and somatic realms. Since then, he has explored his inner terrain in a variety of ways including dream work, embodied inquiry, spiritual teachings, and plant medicines.Amongst other things, Bart and I talk about his identification with Iron Man, and how he shut out joy as well as pain as a little child; the ways in which insights and realisations came for him during dreams; and how his approach to his medical practice developed as his explorations continued. We also touch into how he slowly opened his heart chakra; the way that psychological pain can sometimes “feed” physical pain; and how working with bodily sensations helped in the unravelling of knots. And finally, Bart shares how, after a revelation or opening, we often also experience some kind of backlash or push back.Dr Bart Balint is a retired anesthesiologist and the author of The Giant Clam and Other Visions: An Allopathic Physician Explores Non-Ordinary States and Reconciles with Joy. Over a number of years, he has experienced a profound shift in perspective from the guilt-ridden religious beliefs that previously ruled his life to a paradigm of exploration, play, and insight. He lives with his life partner, Melanie Balint Gray, and they continue to journey together.  Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaIf you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

The dark night “pulled” at Melanie in her twenties, but it wasn’t until her forties that she was willing and able to hear its calling. As her work and marriage fell apart, she found herself in a dark, heavy place, and “went down into a different space of me.” Having always been a “good little girl” who walked on eggshells and did her best to please everyone, she began to encounter everything that lay beneath her persona. Like an archaeologist, she painstakingly worked through many layers of self-hatred and shame.Amongst many other things, Melanie and I talk about finally being able to say no, and refusing to pass the dysfunctional buck onto the next generation; the crumbling of the old ways and what happens when our operating systems stop working; and refusing to pretend. We also discuss the humaneness of including all of ourselves; cracking our hearts open and touching into the breathtaking, heartbreaking beauty of life; and learning how to trust ourselves whilst also leaning on others. Finally, we touch into the sanity that emerges out of the dark night process and how, even though at times it feels like madness, “you might actually be finding your sanity.”Melanie Balint Gray PhDSome influential moments:1. Living abroad for ten years as a child honed adaptability, tolerance, empathy, and compassion.2. Steeping in familial secrets honed shame, guilt, self-hatred, and victimhood.3. A PhD in Immunology expanded critical thinking.4. Raising children brought meditation, the super-sensible, and a new view of humanness.5. Facing divorce, job loss, and depression peeled away worn out beliefs.6. Now I sit with others while they see what wants to be met and/or fall away.Melanie can be reached via email: graymelanie111@gmail.comFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaIf you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Kristy’s first dark night experience began when her dog – her attachment figure – died when she was ten, and she lost her trust in life. Over the next twenty years, things seemed to improve; she left home, learnt how to meditate, began training as a counsellor, and started to explore her childhood trauma. During a somatic experiencing session, she had a profound recognition, which at the time seemed little more than a subtle “click”. The ensuing sense of grace and effortlessness – very different from her usually tumultuous inner world – lasted for a couple of weeks. After that, it was as if a threshold had been crossed; the process of unravelling both an entire lifetime’s and many generations of tension began.We discuss – amongst many other things – the nature of the twisted double-stranded rope; how evolution is bringing us back into our natural state and undoing the effects of thousands of years of empire; and the importance of being in the presence of nature. We also talk about the space of love and unconditionality that starts to slowly move to the foreground, and how something profound, beautiful, and mind-blowing begins to emerge on the other side of the dark night.Kristy Johnsson began her career as an environmental researcher, before doing an MSc in Clinical Counselling. Working with a somatic-ecotherapeutic approach that honours the intelligence of nature, she has undertaken her own deep psychosomatic explorations, as well as walking alongside many others (sometimes literally) in theirs. She has years of experience of environmental and outdoor education rooted in social justice, and is currently travelling in Australasia, while connecting ever more deeply with the more-than-human world.Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaIf you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Following on from our previous conversation, Tim and I touch on the profound mattering of every life, even in the face of futility and nihilism. We discuss the reckoning with mortality that occurs in the dark night, and he proposes that, rather than fixed objects, we are dynamic processes in time, and thus the possibility of radical newness is inherent with us.Tim shares his philosophy of death, which is informed by his experiences of being with dying people, and by extensive research on NDEs (Near Death Experiences) and terminal lucidity. He suggests that, while the biological dies, the psyche continues on and enters into “the ecology of soul” before (at some point) re-combining with the biological. We mention the physicalist view that consciousness originates in the brain; the notion of pastivity as an organisational system; and the way in which “the ability of the psyche to survive the death of the body has evolved.” We also talk about the importance of cultivating what Tim calls psy-sensing – the sensing of the phenomena of the psyche, including thoughts, memories, dreams, spiritual experiences, and the imaginal realm – and how all of this is just the beginnings of an understanding.Tim Freke has written many books on religion, mysticism, and spirituality, one of which – The Jesus Mysteries, co-authored with Peter Gandy – became a bestseller. In 2017, he wrote Soul Story: Evolution and the Self-Realising Universe, which offers a new narrative connecting spirituality and science. Tim also leads experiential retreats, both in person and online, in which participants experience the “Big Love” of deep communion. His new podbook, Why Your Life Really Matters, explores his latest philosophy in detail.Connect with TimFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaIf you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Tim began asking questions about the nature of life, death, suffering, and the world from an early age, and has never stopped. His first transformative awakening experience happened when he was twelve, and he became a philosopher, spending decades studying, writing, speaking, and leading experiential retreats. Over the last few years, he’s had a radical change of mind and is now in the process of laying out his new philosophy on the evolutionary nature of existence – and much else besides – in his podbook, Why Your Life Really Matters. In this conversation, Tim and I tentatively begin to create a philosophical scaffolding for the dark night of the soul. We discuss – amongst many other things – Tim’s concept of “pastivity” and how the past is implicit in both the present and ourselves; being stunned by our own foolishness; and the importance of asking deep questions and cultivating an “open system”. We also talk about how everything is one process of evolutionary emergence, including the self; the nature of the big loving intelligence in which suffering is redeemed; the redemptive nature of the dark night and the bittersweetness of life; and how it is to be a lover of the fullness of existence.  Tim Freke has written many books on religion, mysticism, and spirituality, one of which – The Jesus Mysteries, co-authored with Peter Gandy – became a bestseller. In 2017, Tim wrote Soul Story: Evolution and the Self-Realising Universe, which offers a new narrative connecting spirituality and science. Tim also leads experiential retreats, both in person and online, in which participants experience the “Big Love” of deep communion. His new podbook, Why Your Life Really Matters, explores his latest philosophy in detail. Connect with TimFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaIf you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Following on from our first conversation, Jen and I explore how culture skews us towards pathologically trying to fix ourselves, and the sighs of relief that come when we put down the glaring searchlights; coming into and tending to our inner houses with care and gentleness even amidst collapse, dismantling, mess, renovation, reconstruction, and expansion; the importance of “trusting the alchemy of your own house” such that it becomes a safe and unconditionally loving place to be; and the usefulness of understanding the dark night as a non-linear process of alchemical transformation.In addition, we talk about Jen’s experience of chronic pain, and how being in a broken body – her spine held together with hardware – is a spiritual threshold, a portal into her inner world; how the forced descent into broken-bodiedness has been an initiation into a different kind of presence; and how the realities of physical pain and disabilities are often overlooked (or worse) in spiritual teachings and communities. We also touch into destruction in the service of creation; the “particular signature scent of healing and unfolding” that every human being has; and the pain, awe, and wonder of being in the space of “even this.”Jen Peer Rich, PhD is an author, artist, and alchemist whose work explores healing, multiplicity, and the spiritual architecture of selves. Her debut memoir, The Alchemy of Being a House: A Memoir About The Body That Broke, The Voice That Barked, and The Home That Became Us, is the first in a series of intimate, genre-defying books tracing the nonlinear path of trauma integration and homecoming. With a background in ecological philosophy and decades of lived experience as a disabled, queer caregiver, Jen brings a rare blend of insight, humor, and radical compassion to her storytelling. Connect with JenFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaMentionsWe refer to the seven stages of spiritual alchemy, which are: calcination (burning), dissolution, separation, conjunction, fermentation, distillation, and coagulation.If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Jen’s dark night began in 2011, when she found herself “smack dab in the face of true love with a huge bag of unresolved trauma.” A lifetime of internal suffering culminated in collapse; for months, she lay among the trees in her backyard, and started to tend to the wounding that had begun when she was treated for cancer as a baby, and kept snowballing throughout her traumatic childhood. In the fourteen years since, her quest to understand what happened that summer has taken her into both academia (in the form of a PhD) and profound creativity as a writer and artist.Amongst many other things, we talk about the single self assumption that is baked into our world view when the reality is a multiplicity of teeming selves; and how she came to recognise the true nature of the protective part that was borne out of her intense pain as an infant. We also discuss coming into relationship with our parts entirely on their own terms and how things change when we stop pathologising them; and the intelligence of the healing process and how we began to follow it even when it took us to weird places.Jen Peer Rich, PhD is an author, artist, and alchemist whose work explores healing, multiplicity, and the spiritual architecture of selves. Her debut memoir, The Alchemy of Being a House: A Memoir About The Body That Broke, The Voice That Barked, and The Home That Became Us, is the first in a series of intimate, genre-defying books tracing the nonlinear path of trauma integration and homecoming. With a background in ecological philosophy and decades of lived experience as a disabled, queer caregiver, Jen brings a rare blend of insight, humor, and radical compassion to her storytelling. Connect with JenFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaMentionsJen mentions Your Symphony of Selves: Discover and Understand More of Who We Are by James Fadiman, PhD and Jason Gruber, JD.If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

After fifteen years of disciplined meditation and spiritual seeking, Paul hit a brick wall. He got ME/CFS, lost his job, his ideas about spirituality crumbled, and he lost interest in all the teachings he had tried so assiduously to follow. With no role in life, and no sense of direction, he felt like he was falling into a bottomless pit. Occasionally, a deeper sense of peace came out of nowhere, but he doubted himself, calling himself crazy. Eventually, after several years, he found himself ready to have a role in the world again.Amongst other things, Paul and I talk about the impossibility of “achieving” surrender; putting on a brave face and trying not to feel our feelings; the myth of enlightenment; and how therapeutic and spiritual interventions frequently feel like coercion or violation during the dark night. We also discuss drinking the "meditation Kool-Aid", and the blind alley of trying to be a detached witness to our experience. We run with Paul’s metaphor of Sisyphus endlessly rolling the boulder up the hill; we ponder what we’d say to our younger selves; we wonder at how the dark night stretched our capacity to be with ourselves; and we mull over the paradox of being grateful for having suffered.Paul Currie worked as an actor as a young adult, before eventually becoming disillusioned and unfulfilled by performance and deciding to embark on a spiritual search. In his mid thirties he experienced a dark night of the soul process during which everything seemed to fall apart, especially all of his notions of becoming a spiritual person or an enlightened person. Following this experience he trained as a counsellor and psychotherapist and now dedicates his time to being with people experiencing challenging and difficult states.Connect with PaulFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops and a reflective space for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaIf you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email. darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Having been interested in mythological and spiritual artwork from a young age, John went to university to study comparative symbolism. At twenty-one – while feeling directionless and reading intense philosophy, including Krishnamurti – his sense of self completely disintegrated. He dropped out of his degree course and, for about six months, became a barefoot guru (having left his shoes in an art gallery). He travelled and taught, living in the homes of people who supported him, until he realised that the guru phenomenon – or "circus", as he calls it – didn’t feel congruent. He went back to his family, volunteered at a playgroup to learn how to play, and gradually built a life.For ten years, he “couldn’t touch” the whole experience. Eventually, however, he came across Stanislav Grof and Holotropic Breathwork, and began the slow process of embodying and integrating everything that had transpired during his guru period. Amongst other things, John and I discuss the pitfalls of being a guru; learning how to navigate in a place of unknowing; the necessity of having maps that resonate; and how we can bear witness to ourselves. We also talk a little about his work with the Spiritual Crisis Network, and share an important pause towards the end of the episode.John Ablett is the author of The Accidental Guru, one of the accounts in Breaking Open: Finding a Way Through Spiritual Emergency. He has had a variety of careers, including being a graphic designer, a computer programmer, and a social worker. He co-facilitates a monthly Spiritual Crisis Network peer support group, online and in person in the Sheffield (UK) area, details here. You can see examples of John’s transpersonal artwork on his website, Holotropic Mandalas.Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works with many people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaMentionsJohn mentions The Stormy Search for the Self, by Christina Grof and Stanislav Grof. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Following on from our first conversation, Li and I begin with the hamster wheel that is capitalism, colonialism and imperialism, and the effects of living within power structures that threaten us in a variety of ways, depending on who we are. We talk about how it was impossible to keep up being an efficient cog in that wheel during our dark nights, and how it’s natural to no longer want to participate in “this deadening culture.”We discuss the “con job” that often masquerades as spirituality; how the dark night rattles the construction of personhood and all our ideas about who we are, who we’re supposed to be and who we shouldn’t be; our somatic survival patterns and the nature of what Li calls the mental body; and the wisdom and clarity of the heart body. We also touch into the undoing of binaries; the expanding capacity for love and compassion towards ourselves and others; times when there’s been a starvation of heart and huge amounts of shame towards ourselves; and totally unexpected moments of grace. Finally, we lean into the realm of unconditionality and connecting to the actual – breath, gravity – and the ongoing dance of being on this planet.Li Meuser is a full-time student of being fully human, and is deeply passionate about connecting and interrelating. As a somatic therapist, integrative primary prevention trainer, and creative writing facilitator, Li utilizes transformational and wisdom-based practices in supporting people with their somatic intelligence/energies. In learning how to embody our creativity, we are able to consciously choose to discover, move into and remember the realms of interdependency and liberation for all. Li has an extensive collection of science-based recordings to regulate the brain and nervous system on the Insight Timer app.Connect with LiFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works with many people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers both a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaIf you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Li’s first dark night began when a relationship suddenly ended, and they found themself beset by heartbreak, their survival strategies stripped. Some time later, an abusive intimate relationship took Li even deeper in, splitting them open in what they describe as “a total unravelling of the wounded me.” They started to feel all the fear – and other emotions – that they’d been masking, denying, avoiding, and hiding. Slowly, Li began to feel the excruciating pain of aloneness and separation – which was, eventually, freeing – and gradually came into a remembering of interconnectedness.In this episode, we talk about false spiritual narratives and the shame of feeling fear; wanting to die while simultaneously waking up from our wounds; moments of gratitude for the mundane; and craving realness. We also touch into our creatureness; moving beyond the colonial mindset of right or wrong into a place of kindness and tenderness; discovering the kind of wisdom that comes from falling apart; and the phase of not being able to see the light at the end of the dark. And we laugh about how much crying we did during our dark nights, and how Li could track their emotional state by the size of their water bill.Li Meuser is a full-time student of being fully human, and is deeply passionate about connecting and interrelating. As a somatic therapist, integrative primary prevention trainer, and creative writing facilitator, Li utilizes transformational and wisdom-based practices in supporting people with their somatic intelligence/energies. In learning how to embody our creativity, we are able to consciously choose to discover, move into and remember the realms of interdependency and liberation for all. Li has an extensive collection of science-based recordings to regulate the brain and nervous system on the Insight Timer app.Connect with LiFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering, and occasional workshops and a reflective space for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaIf you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Mike recently completely his PhD on the empirical evidence for interventions in spiritual crisis. Always interested in myth, magic, and mysticism, he has extensively studied religious and spiritual phenomena through the lens of transpersonal psychology. His research brings much-needed academic attention to an experience so often overlooked by both the spiritual and therapeutic worlds, and is deeply informed by his work supporting people going through spiritual crisis.In this episode, we talk about a central aspect of Mike’s research; the strands of what he broadly refers to as grounding – the practices, attitudes, and behaviours that might support a move from disconnection towards connection, or ungroundedness towards groundedness, during spiritual crisis. In the order we discuss them, these themes are: a connection to self, world, and others (including the transpersonal other); keeping a foot in both worlds; cultivating a relationship with experience; word-weaving with embodied metaphors; a centred, balanced, and embodied self; a balance between containment and release; resonance or contagion; and last but by no means least, a sense of humour. We also discuss the importance of creative expression; the difference between naming and labelling; and the interplay between culture and spiritual crisis.Dr Mike Rush is a researcher, hypno-psychotherapist, and co-director of The Spiritual Crisis Network in the UK. He has published in a variety of academic journals on subjects as varied as Near Death Experiences, the neuroscience of religious experience, and Western Esotericism. He co-facilitates online and in-person peer support groups for people going through spiritual crisis, and also offers one to one counselling and consultation.Connect with MikeFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers both a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops and a reflective space for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaMentionsMike mentions the following organisation and individuals:The Spiritual Crisis Network UK.Marie-Grace Brook’s list of 84 possible grounding or integration practices.Emma Bragdon.If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Hany’s dark night began in earnest in his forties, although he’d been aware of feeling different since he was eight. As a child, he’d tried to express to the adults around him what he was experiencing, but it wasn’t until a therapist suggested many years later that he was in a dark night that he began to understand what might have been happening throughout his life. After going through countless rock bottoms and navigating blindly in the dark, he started to follow his own river and found himself gradually coming back to his life.Amongst other things, we talk about how we experienced words in whole new ways during the dark night, and how our understanding of them continually evolves; how the dark night is a process of shedding layers that often weren’t ours in the first place; and how there are days when getting out of bed counts as an achievement. We also discuss how our intellects had to begin to follow rather than leading; the loneliness of being unmet or misunderstood; how the unravelling of layers, both personal and collective, is not a linear process; and how writing can play an essential role in our emergence.Hany Ezzat has walked through the dark night of the soul and come out writing. A storyteller at his core, he crafts narratives that connect, challenge, and stay. With twenty-six years in branding and creative strategy, he builds with meaning. R.A.W. is the work shaped from his own process — a way of witnessing people return to themselves without theatrics. The rest is still unfolding.Connect with HanyFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops and a reflective space for therapists and counsellors.Connect with Fiona If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Following on from our first conversation, Jessica and I delve into the moment she first heard the term ‘spiritual bypassing’ and realised that’s what she’d been doing, and we explore the rejection or exclusion of the body which is central to spiritual bypassing. Based on our childhood experiences, we touch into cPTSD (complex post-traumatic stress disorder) and the extent to which many of the teachings of self-negating non-duality mirror the messages of narcissistic abuse, shaming the self and its expression. We reflect on being drawn to the teachings that replicated our survival strategies and how, in Jessica’s words, “The shift from self-abandonment to self-compassion has been the most extraordinary shift.”We also talk about the damage wrought by self-negating non-duality and the cult-like dynamics that are often at play in spiritual communities; the shaming of need and the notion that suffering is a story; the importance of healthy boundaries; ego-bashing, how it perpetuates the inner gaslighter, and what our understanding of the ego is now; how dogmatic teachings that propound truth with a capital T erode self-trust and undermine our ability to critically question; and the attraction of and problems with certainty and wanting to know the ‘ultimate truth’.Jessica Eve is raising awareness about the dangers of self-negating spirituality like Neo-Advaita, supporting folks healing from harmful effects, and inspiring humanistic, life-affirming alternatives. Explore her blog, youtube channel and more! If you'd like to join her online peer support group, Collective Soul Revival, please fill out this form.Connect with JessicaFiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers both a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops and a reflective space for therapists and counsellors.Connect with FionaMentionsJessica mentions Guy Smith, and interviews him here. She also mentions author and philosopher Tim Freke, who has critiqued non-dual spiritual teachings, and therapist Michael Lydon, who talks about how they can reproduce trauma.Jessica cites several non-dual teachers, including Rupert Spira: This is spiritual bypassing and I won’t apologise and Adyashanti: Don’t trust yourself.If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.comMusic by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit